Rorate Caeli

Justice in Russia

Father Blake, as usual, says all that must be said in the sick affair in which Western commentators (including many supposed "Christians") applauded the desecration of the largest church in Moscow, the (Russian Orthodox) Cathedral of Christ the Savior, or at least thought it should be left unpunished because they disagree with the current Russian government. In our own lifetime, or in that of our parents or grandparents, the Bolsheviks had already invaded and obliterated the building - and now anti-government protesters, who have the wide spaces of the largest nation on earth to protest, mocked Christianity and the Mother of God inside a church, and thought they could get away with it.

The desecration of Christ the Savior Cathedral by the Bolsheviks and its subsequent destruction is not something that features much, well actually at all, in the news stories about [the group]. It was the dominant religious building in Moscow before the Revolution, its obliteration was the great triumph of atheism. The intention was to build a monumental "People's Palace" on the site but the plans never materialised, instead a swimming pool was built instead. The present was built after the fall of Communism.
For Russian believers this Cathedral symbolises the very heart of Christian Russia, reborn after the murder of  countless of believers and the wholesale destruction of religion in Russian. The demonstration against Putin was one thing but the mockery of religion in the Cathedral was reminder for believers of the type of thing organised by the persecutors within living memory, it was spitting in the face of the holy Russia. 
Can the fatuous western "supporter" of [the group] understand the nature of their demonstration?

And if these secular (and even some Catholic) commentators think this desecration should have been left unpunished, then they should just try to mount the same kind of protest in a mosque and see the gentle reception they would get... It is just too easy to mock Christianity: congratulations to the Russian Courts.

All Christians must stand up together against anti-Christian acts, whatever their motivation may be.


(Augustinus): Those thinking that this is all about the President of the Russian Federation and not about mocking Christianity, or that it affects only the Eastern Orthodox and therefore should be of no concern to Catholics, should reflect on what the Ukrainian feminist group "FEMEN" did today in Kiev, Ukraine to show their solidarity with [the group]: they cut down a cross with a chainsaw -- not just any cross, but a crucifix that commemorates the victims of Stalinist oppression: Femen Activists Cut Down Cross In Kiev. It should be noted that the report from Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty is devoid of any signs of disgust for this desecration of the cross, or of any acknowledgment of the offense this act caused to believers.

LifeSite News also pointed out last week (Western media concealing facts about female rock band’s desecration of Russian cathedral) that the actual "performance" inside Christ the Savior was heavy with ridicule against the sacred, and directly supported so-called "gay rights".

(Augustinus): Update: Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty positively compares the desecration of Christ the Saviour Cathedral with the 1989 attack by homosexualist activists on St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC, during which the Blessed Sacrament was also desecrated: Decades Before [Russian group], U.S. Group Protested Catholic Church -- And Got Results. Some Eastern European sources are also pointing out that the crucifix that was destroyed yesterday in Kyiv was Greek Catholic in provenance.


  1. The Revolutionaries in France planned to tear-down Chartres Cathedral and use its stones to pave streets! It was only saved at the last minute.

  2. J.G. Ratkaj3:01 PM

    It is laudable that Patriarch Cyril continues with vigour the wise policy, well founded by his predecessor the late Patriarch Alexius II (RIP), to strenghten and expand the ties with the government for the good benefit of church and state (unlike the enlightened western prelature which feels comfortable to run amongst others as a poor second NGO). The ongoing restauration of the symphony between church and state bears already rich fruit in vocations to sacred orders, the construction of sacred buildings and growing demand for the services of the church in the whole russian realm and in the diaspora. No surprise that the corrupt westerners and liberal ideologues in the Russias are crying their eyes out. The yapping of their allies in the west is abundant proof that Russia keeps the right path.

  3. Russico3:15 PM


  4. Paulus3:18 PM

    No need to look at Moscow:

    The destruction/demolition of two venerable churches in the Borough of Manhattan, New York, New York has occured within recent memory:

    St Ann's & Mary Help of Christians on East 12th Street.

    Can anyone add to this list?

  5. I have always believed salvation comes from the east both literally and metaphorically. Our Blessed Lady has told us this is so and when we go to Holy Mass we face the direction whence Our Saviour hails.
    Russia has also banned for 100 years all gay parades.
    In the meantime, the UN and its political bullies the USA and EU threaten any nation daring to stand up for sound Christian moral norms, values and mores with severe financial penalties.
    Who would we prefer to see govern Russia - inept oligarch-dominated drunkards like Yeltsin or a man with strength and moral fibre like Putin? We all have our weaknesses, especially political leaders but in our own western societies ours have no moral strengths left at all.

  6. Ted Maysfield4:30 PM

    God bless you for this support for Christians in Russia, including the Orthodox, against whom many traditional Catholic direct a stream of hate (including some in the Fatima movement), while promoting the masonic/NATO line (recently repeated by Mitt Romney) that Russia is the most evil nation on earth.

  7. Two years seems a bit stiff to my mind. But I think it is important to recall that what they did was deliberate sacrilege in a church. In any jurisdiction that I know of they would have been arrested and thrown in the clink. I have been, and remain a fierce critic of Vladimir Putin's increasingly authoritarian regime. But these women are not the angelic martyrs that the left is making them out to be.

    Should the Russian Orthodox Church have forgiven them? Yes, and shame on them for failing to do so. But a court of law is not a church. Their job is to maintain some element of order in society. My approach would have been to sentence them to time served and some particularly unpleasant form of community service coupled with a reminder that it gets very cold in Siberia in case they were ever tempted to re-offend. But Russia has always been a bit more of a law and order country. My understanding of things suggests that this sentence, while a tad harsh by our reckoning, is not exceptional for the offense by Russian standards.

    It is also worth recalling that Russians are very sensitive to attacks on the church. Millions of Russians, especially Orthodox, were sent to slave labor camps or just murdered outright for their religious beliefs under the Communist regime. This is something that we have no concept of in our enlightened liberal world. There are mass graves all over Russia filled with people whose only crime was their faith. Incitement to religious hatred has a very different meaning for these people.

    Great and Holy New-Martyrs of Russia Pray for us!

  8. Hendrik Mills4:34 PM

    We should all strongly support Putin's attempt to defend Christ and the dignity of the Cross and of His Church. Yes, the Catholic Church is the continuous, true church of the Apostles, and the Orthodox are in schism. But those worldly people who hate Christ don't care about those distinctions. To stand with Putin on this issue is to stand with Christ against the world and against Satan. Long live Christ the King!

  9. Beware, I often think that the errors of Russia are not communism as we first thought but Russian orthodoxy, and truly is that church not a temptation given the state of the true church today?

  10. JMJ Ora Pro Nobis:

    So we should wink at public blasphemy and the desecration of Orthodox churches because we should not allow anyone to be "tempted" by Orthodoxy? Is that what you are saying? No, Catholicism does not need the disgraceful kind of "help" that you propose. We can defend our faith very well without losing our magnanimity and sense of fairness.

  11. NIANTIC5:09 PM

    What happened to the Cathedral of Christ the King on orders of Stalin, the son of Satan,has happened physically also to countless Catholic Churches in the "free" West during the last 50 or so years.Each time a Church is physically destroyed it is like spitting in the Face of God.

    The spiritual collapse of the Faith in the West is even greater. And this is due solely to men who destroyed the heart of Catholicism, the Liturgy itself. In one of the greatest acts of arrogance and blasphemy they dethroned God and enthroned Man on our altars.
    And as long as this Novus Ordo abomination continues to be the norm and practiced we will not see a resurrection. When will they in Rome and around the world honestly face up to their utter arrogance and cry out; "mea maxima culpa", and return the Liturgy everywhere to its original splendor and majesty giving real worship and glory to God?

    I applaud the jailing of the blasphemers in Russia. The cowards in the West would not dare do the same. Lord have mercy!

  12. P.K.T.P.6:38 PM

    All the moderators' comments here are good in my view. I add that rock noise is intrinsically evil (as is jazz) and that the noise of the revolutionaries from the 1960s on has done more damage to Western culture and mores than has anything else, including Modernist anti-philosophy. Rock noise is disordered sound, owing to its manipulation of rhythm and beat to appeal to the gross appetites. Therefore, one cannot redeem it by setting it a positive libretto. There is no such thing as 'Christian rock'.

    The aural trash these people churn out is now omnipresent. The idea is that civilised people will not be permitted to escape it. It blares from speakers in malls, liquor shops, department stores, cars, home stereos, speakers in parks. The idea is to force its anti-culture on all the people who live in the world, thereby destoying their serenity and attacking their minds.

    I have noticed that, just over the past ten years or so, the journalists have attempted to institutionalise and normalise this flotsam. In the past, when one of the noisemakers (they are not 'artists') dropped dead from an overdose or from a life of abuse, it was not reported on the news but only (I presume) in rock noise magazines. Now, however, if even a minor noisemaker from a forgotten band from the 1960s dies, it is an occasion for national mourning. Sound the trumpet! Beat the drum! Lower the flag!

    This invasion of a cathedral by Satanic descrators is more than symbolic: it actualises an attack on Russian Christian culture by Western, rather than communist, atheism. Both Western secularism and atheistic communism are 'communalistic'; that is, they both urge government larceny by redistribution of wealth so as to enrich the protestors. And they do this in the name of justice! What is justice? It is the giving of every man what is due to him. It is contract, not organised theft. Let's hope that the Russian courts will throw the book at these people for attacking others' piety in a cathedral. If they want to protest something, let them do it on their own property.


  13. The Moscow Patrairchate in many ways seems to keep alive the old values that predominated, at least publicly, in the Church before the hurricane of the 1960's (to use Fritz Wilhelmsen's phrase). Here is one small example:

    Note the headline: "Minorities should keep in mind their social responsibility"

  14. There's something that seems unchristian about the sentence: "They thought they could get away with it... All Christians must stand up together against anti-Christian acts, whatever their motivation may be."

    It almost sounds like: "if someone strikes you on the right cheek, don't let him get away with it... stand up for yourself."

  15. Daniel Arseno:

    It is one thing for me to allow my cheek to be struck. It is another thing for me to do nothing as the cheek of another is struck. And doing nothing as Christ is blasphemed and his temples dishonored could not conceivably be pleasing to God.

  16. Well, Daniel, I recall again the words of Velasio, Cardinal DePaolis, on the occasion of the murder of the priest in Turkey: "Enough turning the other cheek, we have a duty to defend ourselves."

  17. Vatican Insider is already reporting on the signing of the joint declaration of repentance and reconciliation of the MP and the Catholic Church in Poland. Hopefully we will have the text in English soon. Meanwhile, from Interfax, a prelude:

    Russian, Polish Churches have key part to play in reconciliation between two nations - Patriarch Kirill

    Warsaw, August 17, Interfax - Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia, who is paying a visit to Warsaw, spoke about the central role of religion in the relationship between the people of Russia and Poland.

    "It's impossible to achieve a true peace between the people of Russia and Poland without active participation in the dialogue between the two churches that have shaped the spiritual identity and culture of both nations," the Patriarch said at a meeting with the Presidium of the Polish Catholic Bishops' Conference on Tuesday.

    His Holiness thanked the Polish Catholic Church for approving the idea of a joint address on reconciliation.

    The adoption of this document, scheduled to be signed on Friday, marks 400 years since the liberation of Moscow from Polish troops and 200 years since Russia's victory over Napoleon, the Patriarch said.

    "In those times, we sort of were on the opposite sides of the barricades. The above anniversaries reflect the complicated and contradictory nature of our relations that sometimes verged on alienation and open enmity. But political battles were preceded by the loss of the initial Christian unity between the Eastern and Western Churches," His Holiness remarked.

    The top hierarch of the Polish Catholic Church, Metropolitan Jozef Michalik, for his part, said that he was happy to see reverend Orthodox bishops standing on the Polish land today as great protectors and messengers of God's law because the spiritual greatness of Christians is "the salt of the Earth and the light of the world".

    He described the Russian Church as the Church of great saints and many martyrs.

    The Russian Orthodox Church is "faithful to its mission, propagates the Gospel, loves its people and courageously protects them from danger and from unilateral liberal progress devoid of the understanding of the presence of God and of the role of conscience in the life of modern man and society," Metropolitan Michalik said.

    Both countries need "teachers who live in truth free of ideology", he said.

  18. NIANTIC7:48 PM

    Daniel Arseno;
    So if someone blasphemes our Blessed Lord and/or His Church then, according to you, we as Christians just have to lie down and take it? When so called "artists" produce blasphemous "art" in whatever form, we as Christians have to roll over and play dead?

    Yes, this is being done quite too often and it encourages the sons and daughters of Satan to more and even greater acts of blasphemy.

    Every act of blasphemy ought to be denounced and condemned as satanic evil. And those who perpetrate these acts are to be condemned as the low life's they are.

    In these cases there is no turning of the cheek mandated because it is God Himself they attack. God's enemy is my enemy. We have the duty, obligation and right to defend His honor.

    As it is, thanks to so many evil men inside the Church, she has lost a great deal of moral influence in the world. Satan is on the war path like never before and we must stand and fight back. Not lament and weep and play goody goody! Please!

  19. The perfect liberal, with the misapplied "Jesus quote" ready to justify every abuse. The other cheek was offered, they were not struck on the spot, either by the Lord Himself, who suffered the blasphemy against Himself and His Mother, or by the faithful, as it would probably have happened in a mosque or orthodox synagogue, but handed to the authorities for the public order violation.

    "My house is a house of prayer": that is what the Lord said when inappropriate things took place in His Temple - and we all know what He did after saying it.

  20. When someone asks for forgiveness we give it - each and every time. In this case it doesn't look like there is any sorrow or regret for this band's actions so the sentence will hopefully rehabilitate them in one way or another and send a message to others that we live in a civilized society and you can't go tramping around on other people's rights because you are upset about something.

    I don't know how Russian jails are these days but I think a good compromise would be 8 months in a labor camp or chain gang. As a Priest once said there are two things that makes one mature: suffering and responsibility.

  21. Here is a link to the MP’s Department of External Relations account of today’s signing of the joint declaration by Patriarch KIRILL and Archbishop Michalik.

    From the Patriarch’s remarks, here are the take-aways:

    “Regrettably, the enemy of the human race has often managed to throw in the tares of division and enmity into the family of Christian nations. So, called to confess together Jesus Christ Who came in flesh (I Jn. 4:2) for the sake of our salvation, they can treat each other with hostility. We know about it from history. And for this reason we together appeal to all with words of reconciliation, reminding that such times are coming that the memory of the past tragedies should be put side-lines in face of the challenges of today. The Message states that in our days the peoples of Russia and Poland have encountered the erosion of moral principles based on God’s commandments, the propaganda of abortion, euthanasia, same-sex unions, and rejection of Christian moral values. We are also witnesses to the struggle for driving not only religious symbols but also faith itself and morality away from public space.

    The document stresses that in our days Christians are called as never before to stand side by side defending their right to live by their faith, confessing the Truth before those around them. We have no time for reflections and delays. Indeed, if we allow today to destroy Europe’s spiritual foundation threaten as it is, among other things, by our divisions, then in the nearest future we should await such manifestations of hate and violence that the 20th century may seem to some in comparison an era of peace and prosperity.”

  22. Bernonensis11:31 PM

    I just heard on the NBC network news that the White House described the sentence to two years imprisonment as "disproportionate." For once I agree with Incompetent-in-Chief B. Hussein Obama; they should be flogged, one lash for each syllable of their blasphemous song.

  23. Matthew Rose11:49 PM

    Just imagine the justice which will rain down if Russia is consecrated to Our Lady (among other wonderful things, of course!)

    And, as others have pointed out, it is ironic how these things rarely if ever happen in synagogues or mosques. Fancy that.

  24. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  25. Fidus et Audax12:48 PM

    The Orthodox church has continually attacked and undermined the Holy Roman Catholic Church. In the past and likely still, all members of the Orthodox Church were KGB. I'm no neocon either so before anyone accuses me of that.

    If a couple of vandals were thrown in jail, great, nobody should be attacking a Church. but lets get real about the Orthodox Church and Russia. They're no friend of Catholicism either in the past or present.Yeah, i know this comment likely won't be posted by the Rorate Politbureau but nevertheless, at least a mod will read it and hopefully gain some insight.

  26. Jusztinián G. Ratkaj1:05 PM

    1812 russian armies annihilated the goodles horde of revolutionaries and their leading devilish charlatan at Bérézina. Good to know that the noble russian nation also today cracks the spiritual descendants of this enemies of the cause of Christ.

  27. The Rev. M. Forbes3:45 PM

    Although the sentences in the American system might be excessive, and theological protest, no matter how tasteless, cannot be subject to the civil law, there is plenty of trouble in both acts:

    Unwanted trespass on limited public but limited property.

    Disturbiing the peace, and engaging in threatening conduct.

    In the case of the Cathedral, possible assaul threatening conduct and terrorism.

    Destruction of property.

    None of these are part of political or theological discussionm no matter how spirited or vitriolic.

    In the American system, six months jail (possibly reserved if there is no more trouble) a thousand to two thousand dollars fine, complete restitution, including manual work where apppropriate, and 500 hours of community service cleaning up messes like suicide and crime scenes and public toilets.

    Aren't you glad I am not a judge?


  28. I have blogged about this case in my Religion Law Blog at

    What happened in the Cathedral would be a criminal offence under the law of any civilised society.

    There may for all I know be many reasons to criticise President Putin but i do not think he or Russia can be criticised over this particular prosecution

  29. Adam Michael6:39 PM

    Thank you for blogging about this, RC. Truly, justice was served yesterday. And now we must pray for the conversion of these young women.

  30. It's to bad the sentence was so short.

    Five years seems about right to me.

  31. JTLiuzza7:28 PM

    My take is the same as Mr. Addison's. If they wanted to set up shop in a public square and bounce around screeching about what a bad guy Putin is; that's one thing. But desecrating a Cathedral in the process is a whole different ball game.

    What struck me as well was the self-satisfied smirks they all displayed after the fact, as if they were being treated as some kind of left wing martyrs.

    I also have no problem with the sentence.

  32. It looks like the Russian Orthodox Church has called on the government to show mercy...

    "Casting no doubt on the legitimacy of the court’s decision, we appeal to the public authorities to show mercy, within the law, on the convicted in the hope they will never repeat such blasphemous actions,” the Russian Orthodox Church's High Council said in a statement, according to

    The story is here.

  33. Yeah, i know this comment likely won't be posted by the Rorate Politbureau (sic) but nevertheless, at least a mod will read it and hopefully gain some insight.

    Most eminent comrade, we members of the Rorate Politburo have gained so much insight from your words of exquisite wisdom that we wanted to be sure everyone else here could benefit as much as we have.

  34. Filipino Catholic8:59 PM

    Desecrating the Cathedral of Christ the Savior is the Russian Orthodox equivalent of desecrating Saint Peter's Basilica, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Old Temple of Jerusalem, or even the Kaaba.

    One does not simply invade the Most Holy Place like Nebuchadnezzar and Titus once brazenly and arrogantly did. One does not simply blaspheme the King and Queen of Heaven. (They would have been near-lynched if they tried that stunt here: Filipinos have a very filial devotion for Mary, to the point where she is quite affectionately called "Mama Mary" and the word "Jesusmarijosep" is a curse word.) This is no ordinary blasphemy, it is lese-majesty!

    Arise O Lord, and judge your cause.

    Filipino Catholic.

  35. We live in an anti-Christ society. Nothing suprises me anymore, and it's only going to get worse.

  36. Benedict Carter11:29 AM

    I lived in Russia from the mid '90s until recently. I am conversant with Russian history, culture, language and peoples. My wife is Russian. I have travelled throughout the country.

    Putin is no saint. The ROC has some grave weaknesses. Should we be surprised at this? Human beings are damaged by Original Sin.

    The Russia to which I came was a dangerous place: in Moscow in those days there was an atmosphere of danger which was almost tangible. The so-called "flat-heads" (criminals) were seen everywhere and very intimidating they were. The flood of money gave rise to unrestrained hedonism and licentiousness, materialism on an epic scale, and the cynicism and boundless greed on display, the cruelty of Russians to each other, to everyone, took one's breath away.

    Russians are right to remember those times with dread. Chechen and other national criminal gangs; the papers full of the previous day's contract hits; the impotence of the government; the collapse of morality, law & order, of any kind of cohesion: the only Western equivalent I can think of would be the years of the monster Bonaparte or the final fall of the Roman Empire.

    By the time I left Russia the situation had changed completely. Moscow had become rather boring, so normal was it. The Chechens ("wolves" as they like to think of themselves) had been tamed at great cost. The mafia gangs had been jailed. Russians were settling, calming, living less madly, marrying, having children. Society was visibly, slowly but surely, beginning to heal.

    What Russia needs is more of the same: stability, calm, assurance that the hand on the tiller will not let go, economic development over time.

    What Russia does NOT need are the strident calls from the Commissars of the Western socialist elite to break this period of calm by the resumption of "democratic" values of the current West, which have grossly declined in standard and have grown corrupt in our own days or the wholesale import to Russia of the "values" of the modern post-Christian elite, which are EXACTLY the cultural Marxist values Russia wants to leave behind.

    When the West has finally gone down, Russian civilisation will remain. Russian society and culture is "soft", whereas in the West it is "hard". Russia can bend under pressure far beyond the capacity of the West to do so, and hence cannot be beaten. This, fundamentally, is the battle that Putin is engaged in: to exclude from Russia the modern foulness of a corrupt West. His battle should be that of every Westerner too: Russia's enemies are also ours, but so blinded are we by the propaganda of the new post-Christian elites in the West that many people, cannot see it. A tragedy.


  37. Benedict Carter11:30 AM

    However, the ROC as I noted has weaknesses. These are real. While about 75% of all Russians are now baptised, only 1% regularly receive the Sacraments. That's absolutely no "critical mass" that suggests Our Lady's words at Fatima ("Russia will be converted") have come to pass on our own time. It suggests to me, on the contrary, that the Consecration still needs to be done as Our Lady requested.

    As to the shrill complaints about the Pussy Riot trial, it seems to me that the "democracy and free speech is everything" crowd are actually, or not far off, being insane.

    Their ideology allows everything: from homosexuals to advertise their debauchery on our public streets in front of our children to Syrian rebels to be armed and supplied when their victory will provoke a gigantic blood-bath and the extirpation of Christianity in yet another Middle East country. A "normal" country is a "Christian" country: not a democratic one. These post-Christian Kommissar fanatics are the true inheritors of Lenin's "League of the Militant Godless". They are doing in the West the same appalling destruction - first of all to the family, thence to society - done in Soviet Russia (by the same people); a destruction Putin and others have done something already to reverse. It is the fight against this that makes the socialist-demonic New Bolsheviks of the West hate Russia.

  38. OutsideObserver12:49 PM

    A rare Western column pointing out that the prosecution of this abominable group is "perfectly European":

  39. NIANTIC2:06 PM

    Benedict Carter: I read your comment with great interest. I agree with you that our Western democracy is absolutely not the "shining city on a hill". Our dictatorial kommissars may glorify our so called freedoms but in reality we are slaves to materialism. Our "freedom of speech" now ends at the Christian's door and person. Our "culture" has degenerated to the level of insanity. We are so arrogant that we believe this "democracy" needs to be imposed all over the world.

    Yes, I can understand that many in Russia do not want to have any part of this. And if they have to curtail the so called "democracy" to a certain extend in order to fight against Western insanity, so be it.

    You are very correct in saying that "a normal country is a Christian country, not a democratic one". It is the "third way, or rather it is the "first way". Regrettably the "first/third way" does not exist any longer. But perhaps with the thousand plus years of influence of the Orthodox Church in Russia there may be a future going in that direction. Who knows. Pax Christi.

  40. JTLiuzza3:46 PM

    Mr. Carter I also read your remarks with great interest.

    Much of the rot in the west was sewn by Soviet Russia in the decades following WWII. They infiltrated the Church, the media, the universities... Our Lady of Fatima warned of such, "Russia will spread her errors..."

    And now they find themselves having to defend against the very disease they helped create.

    I hope they are successful. I also hope we in the US can fix our numerous and deep cultural problems as well.

  41. PKTP : Nobody else has picked up on your silly post, so I shall. You’ve got away with too much for too long.

    Jazz is intrinsically evil ? Come on man, please, climb down from your throne and stop making an idiot of yourself. Don’t imply that all who play (or listen to) jazz are intrinsically evil. That is simply daft. You just cannot be a musician, I’d venture ?

    Sorry to make it personal, but sometimes your fervour overrides your (clearly) basic decency and insight.

    You know, I just wonder when you will be able to control your keyboard. You are able to write good stuff occasionally, but your shotgun approach to so many issues can result in the impression of someone blasting off into the woods in an absolute rage about everything.

    In case you have still an itchy trigger finger, just note I write about jazz, not rock.


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