Rorate Caeli

Aparecida Notes:
What does that Eucharistic Prayer really say?

An article by our reader Antonio Basto, an attorney and law professor in Rio.


The Vatican website released the Presentation of Pope Benedict's apostolic voyage to Brazil (in Portuguese; in Italian), a document signed by the much (ill)-famed Archbishop Piero Marini, Master of Pontifical Liturgical Celebrations. As it usually happens, the document of presentation contains a chapter about the Liturgical Book of the Apostolic Voyage, a special liturgical book condensing the rubrics for all the liturgical actions to be celebrated during a Papal Trip.

According to said document of Presentation, the texts are in Portuguese as a rule, with the exception of the celebration of one Mass and of Vespers [both in the day when the Latin American Episcopal Conference-CELAM Conference is to be opened], in which, apart from Portuguese, the Spanish, French, and English languages are also used; furthermore, some sung texts are in Latin.

Apart from the private Masses that the Pope will celebrate in the places that will host him (the St. Benedict Monastery of São Paulo and the Good Jesus Seminary of Aparecida), the Pope will celebrate two public Masses, one in São Paulo, on Friday, May 11th, and another in Aparecida, on Sunday, May 13th. The first public Mass will be the Mass for the Canonization of Blessed Antonio de Sant'Anna Galvão, and the second, the opening Mass of General Conference of the CELAM. Regarding this second Mass, the Presentation informs that His Holiness will use Eucharistic Prayer III. However, the same document declares that, for the Mass of Canonization, His Holiness will employ Eucharistic Prayer V! That is correct, it is not a typo: Eucharistic Prayer... V!

This requires an explanation: thanks to bizarre requests on the part of the Brazilian Episcopal Conference (CNBB), and the leniency over the years on the part of the Apostolic See, several other Eucharistic Prayers are approved for use in Brazil, other than the translations of the Eucharistic Prayers I to IV. Those are the Eucharistic Prayer V, which we will discuss in more detail below, and also Eucharistic Prayers VI-A; VI-B;VI-C;VI-D (for various needs); Eucharistic Prayers VII and VIII (for reconciliation); IX, X and XI (for Masses with children).

Unfortunately, Eucharistic Prayer V is quite terrible: next to it, Eucharistic Prayer II seems the pinnacle of reverence in prayer. As far as possible for an Eucharistic Prayer, Eucharistic Prayer V contains no mention of the sacrificial nature of the Mass (in fact, the words "sacrifice", "victim", and similar expressions are NEVER used in this prayer), and it also manages to contain an impressive level of cheap, pedestrian language, whereas Eucharistic Prayers I to IV, in spite of the omission of several words and expressions denoting reverence in the process of translation, are still phrased, especially when compared to Prayer V, in respectful language.

For instance, Eucharistic Prayer II contains the words "E nós vos suplicamos" ("and we beseech Thee"), and contains several expressions such as "Remember, O Father", in which the "O", makes the prayer sound more reverent (much more reverent than if one were to say "Remember, Father"). It begins by acknowledging the Holiness of the Father, Fountain of all Holiness; it uses words such as "Bread of Life and Chalice of Salvation"... "Chalice of Salvation" is much better than "Wine that gives courage", an expression used by Eucharistic. Prayer V.

Eucharistic Prayer III also employs more than once the verb "beseech", and it refers to the Resurrection as "glorious". Eucharistic Prayer I starts by addressing the Father as "Father of Mercy, to whom our praise goes up" (Pai de Misericórdia, a quem sobem os nossos louvores), it asks "Receive, o Father, kindly, the offering", in the translation of the Hanc igitur, and "Vouchsafe, o Father, to accept..." (in the Quam oblationem); in the Qui pridie, the mention of the eyes of the Lord being raised up to the Father has not been omitted in translation; the Ascension is called "glorious"; in spite of a poorly translated Supplices Te rogamus, the words "we beseech" are employed in the Supra Quae, the line "not by our merits, but by your goodness", was preserved in the translation of the Nobis quoque. All that serves as a prelude to a comparison between those Prayers and the regrettable Eucharistic Prayer V.

Eucharistic Prayer V was drafted during the First Eucharistic Congress of Manaus, the 9th National Eucharistic Congress of Brazil, held in 1975. It was approved by the Brazilian Episcopal Conference, which requested to the Holy See for permission to include it in the Brazilian versions of the Roman Missal. Such permission was, of course, granted.

In Brazil, the use of the Eucharistic Prayer I, the Roman Canon, is quite rare. In most parishes, it is the Eucharistic Prayer II which is used from Monday to Saturday, and the Eucharistic Prayer III on Sunday. So the several other prayers, including the universal prayers I and IV, and the several specific Eucharistic Prayers, are rarely used.

However, if one goes to a church whose pastor is an adherent of Liberation Theology, he will be, in all likelihood, dressed without chasuble, wearing only alb and stole without cincture, and one will probably hear, as a general rule, Eucharistic Prayer V. Perhaps it is a coincidence. Or is it?

No, it is no coincidence that liberal priests prefer that pedestrian prayer. It is tailored for them. And now, thanks to the organizers of the Papal trip to Brazil, and to the good graces of Archbishop Marini, the Pope, the Supreme Pontiff, will recite that prayer. A prayer that should not even be on the Liturgical Books, that should not be recited by any priest, much less by the visible Head of the universal Church. The papal use of that prayer will send a wrong signal. Papal Masses should be an example of devotion. Instead of the Roman Canon, the concelebrants will make use of the worst Eucharistic Prayer ever to be approved by the Apostolic See, in one of the lowest moments of its liturgical law-giving activity.

Here is my translation of Eucharistic Prayer V, followed by more commentary [translation of the Portuguese ORIGINAL text]:


Priest: Lord, you who always wanted to be very close to us, living with us in Christ, speaking with us through him, send your Holy Spirit so that these our offerings be changed into the Body (+) and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ

Congregation: Send your Holy Spirit!

Priest: In the night in which he would be delivered, dining with his apostles, Jesus, having the bread in his hand, looked to heaven ["céu", same word in Portuguese for both heaven and sky] and gave thanks, broke the bread, and gave it to his disciples, saying: TAKE THIS ALL OF YOU, AND EAT: THIS IS MY BODY, THAT WILL BE DELIVERED FOR YOU. Similarly, at the end of the supper, he took the chalice in his hands, gave thanks again and delivered it to his disciples, saying: TAKE THIS ALL OF YOU, AND DRINK: THIS IS THE CHALICE OF MY BLOOD, THE BLOOD OF THE NEW AND EVERLASTING COVENANT, THAT SHALL BE SHED FOR YOU AND FOR ALL, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME.

Priest: All this is the mystery of faith! [instead of "Mysterium Fidei", "Behold the Mystery of the Faith", a translation that is common to all other Eucharistic Prayers in Portuguese].

Congregation: Every time that one eats from this Bread, every time one drinks from this Wine, one recollects the passion of Jesus Christ, and one awaits his return.

Priest. We recall in this moment, o Father, the passion of Jesus, our Lord, his Resurrection and ascension; we wish to offer you this Bread that feeds and gives life, this Wine that saves us and gives courage.

Congregation: Receive, o Lord, our offering!

Priest: And when we receive the Bread and Wine, his offered Body and Blood, may the Spirit unite us in one only body, so that we may be one only people in his love.

Congregation: May the Spirit unite us in one body!

Priest: Protect your Church that walks in the roads of the world towards heaven, each day renewing the hope of arriving next to you, in your peace.

Congregation: We walk on Jesus's road!

Priest: Grant the Holy Father, Pope N., that he be very firm in the Faith, in charity, and to N., who is bishop of this Church, and to his auxiliary bishops, plenty of light to lead his flock.

Congregation: We walk on Jesus' road!

Priest: We expect to enter life everlasting with the Virgin, Mother of God and of the Church, and with the apostles and all the saints that in live knew to love Christ and his (the word used could also mean "their") brothers.

Congregation: We expect to enter the eternal life!

Priest: All those that you called to the other life in your friendship, and to those marked with the sign of Faith, receive them, opening your arms. That they may live very happy forever in the kingdom that for all you have prepared.

Congregation: To all give the light that never ceases!

Priest: And to us, who are now assembled and are a holy and sinful people, give strength to build together your kingdom that is also ours.

Priest: Through Christ, with Christ, in Christ, to you, God Father Almighty, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, be every honour and every glory, now and forever.

Congregation: Amen.


Eucharistic Prayer V makes use of clearly puerile and informal language: for instance, in "Senhor, vós que sempre quisestes ficar muito perto de nós", "muito perto de nós" (very close to us) is a clear use of informal language. Several other nobler images could be used, but since the drafter decided to speak about God´s proximity, they could use "próximo", instead of the informal "muito perto". The Prayer, following the bad example of Eucharistic Prayer II, starts immediately with the Epiclesis, and, again, the sole use of the image of proximity to God here makes this part of the prayer very poor.

In the equivalent of the Qui pridie, instead of using words to denote that Christ looked up to His Father, the word "céu" is employed, which means both Heaven and sky. Instead of "In the night in which he was to be delivered, He took the bread", as is used in most other Eucharistic Prayers, two insertions are here made: one is the "dining with his apostles" phrase, which emphasizes the idea of the Mass as a meal; the other is the replacement of the word "He took the bread", used in most Eucharistic Prayers (a reference to the earlier "Our Lord Jesus Christ") with the informal "Jesus took the bread". "Jesus", plain "Jesus", is informal, and is almost never used in liturgical prayer, at least in Portuguese, for it denotes a Protestant-like intimacy and lack of reverence.

The same lack of reverence is noted when the prayer states, "we recall.. the passion of Jesus, our Lord", instead of "the passion of Thy Son", or "Celebrating, therefore, o Father, the memory of Thy Son, of his passion that saves us, of his Resurrection from the dead and glorious Ascension into the heavens", as used in other prayers. Also, "passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ..." would be more reverent than "passion of Jesus, our Lord".

There is the absurd reference to "Wine that... gives courage" AFTER the Consecration. No other Eucharistic Prayer does that. Some speak of "chalice", such as in "chalice of salvation" (from the Latin calicem salutis perpetuae translated with the omission of perpetuae). However, no other Eucharistic Prayer speaks of the content of the Chalice as this one does. The content, of course, is the saving Blood of Our Lord, not "this wine that saves and gives courage". The reference to "wine" at this point, is unheard-of. Although references to "bread of life" are common, a reference to "chalice" would be much more appropriate that to "wine". And what is this "gives courage" line? Is that language appropriate for Eucharistic prayers?

The reference to the pope and to the Bishop is also done in a different way in this prayer compared to others: there is no reference to "your servant Pope N." or to "our Bishop N.", and that "plenty of light to feed his flock" line is also very pedestrian. In general expressions like "bem firme" (very firm); "bem felizes" (very happy) are informal ones, and thus unsuitable. They are, however, present in this Eucharistic Prayer. The "bem" clause gives that note of informality here. Other Eucharistic Prayers do not use that kind of cheap language, not even in very poor translations.

There is, finally, the problem of the acclamations after each paragraph. Certain acclamations after each paragraph of the Eucharistic Prayer were requested by the National Conference of Bishops of Brazil for every Eucharistic Prayer in the books. They can be dispensed with.

Almost every parish uses those acclamations, and there are different texts that go with different Eucharistic Prayers. The acclamations themselves are inappropriate, and the fact is that their very existence is a source of disturbance and loss of concentration, as it breaks the unified text of the Eucharistic Prayer into fragmented bits. However, the acclamations for other prayers, such as for prayers I to IV, are a bit more respectful towards God, at least, in that they use the "O" clause much more than prayer V --- "Accept our offering, o Lord" --- or in that they ask "Grant us society with the elect". Grant us (concedei-nos), is a formal verb, and denotes more reverence.

Here, however, reverence is totally absent: "Send your Holy Spirit!" -- who do you think you are talking to? That is certainly no way to address God the Father. And also, "We expect to enter eternal life!" -- it is proclaimed with an exclamation point, more like a demand, rather than a humble request. Not to mention the bizarre acclamation, "We walk on Jesus´s road", which sounds more like the language of Protestant neo-pentecostal sects. This line matches another very poor line on the Priest´s part, in which the Holy Catholic Church is referred not as "Thy Catholic Church", "the Church pilgrim on Earth", but in a cheesy way as "the Church that walks in the roads of this world". What is that, country music?

As it can be noticed, it is truly deplorable that Eucharistic Prayer V was ever approved as part of Catholic Liturgy -- it is even worse that it will now become a model, after being granted the rubber-stamp blessing of being used by the Pope himself.

First Picture: Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida, in Aparecida, Brazil
Second and Third Pictures: Masses celebrated in the Jesuit Youth House of Goiania, Brazil.


  1. Anonymous2:29 PM

    "Grant the Holy Father, Pope N., that he be very firm in the Faith..." It's nice they include this in the Euch Prayer V. His Holiness will need to be very firm in the Faith if he is to not fall into the same apostasy that goes on all around him. When is Pope Benedict XVI going to send Abp Marini on a goodwill tour to the International Space Station????

  2. "There is the absurd reference to "Wine that... gives courage" AFTER the Consecration. No other Eucharistic Prayer does that."

    Perhaps this "Eucharistic Prayer V" is hinting at something regarding its validity through the wording and placement of this line.

  3. Anonymous4:59 PM

    I've told my parents about this question regarding the wine. It's quite strange listening this word after the consacration. And also I've never been into a mass in which the priest wore any "casula".

  4. Anonymous5:22 PM

    Pope Benedict XVI realizes that no prayer to God can be efficacious and full of grace unless it be penitential and prayed with a contrite or repentant heart. And this is the basic difference in the two masses, the "Novus Ordo Missae" and the "Missa Latina Tridentina": one is clearly sacrificial and the other not. Certainly, the more contrite our hearts during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the more efficacious and grace-filled our prayers. The less contrite, the less efficacious.

    Furthermore, these supernatural deficits must be so manifest to Pope Benedict XVI today otherwise he would not be so motivated to act, so forthrightly and decisively, at this time in Catholic history to liberate the Tridentine Mass for all priests and the faithful from its neglect and obsolescence for the past forty years. The ultimate question is what might he see to motivate him so strongly?

    The major stumbling block prohibiting the two lost sheep on the Road to Emmaus from seeing the truths of scripture was their inability to see Christ’s Passion and Death as absolutely necessary for the salvation of mankind from sin. Otherwise, they simply could not see— no matter how hard they tried— the Christ in Scripture or Christ Himself in their midst. Not only were they blind and without efficacious grace; they had a vacuous, insipid faith.

    And, as we shall see, the major stumbling block of all protestant worship and the "Novus Ordo Missae" is the desire for a tolerant, compromising king with whom one can eat his mundane "meals" and feel good and comfortable about oneself. Comfortable, yes, with a christ who has no cross and no sacrifice and no plenitude of infinite graces that can save all from their sins at his sacrificial altar of efficacious graces.

    It is so necessary for every man and woman to approach the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where, with contrite hearts, we repent again and again of our sins and not depend on Christ's singular act of sacrifice of the Cross as a 'once saved always saved' excuse for not repenting today and everyday of our lives in the sacrificial renewal of Calvary at the altar of God.

    We must lock into Christ’s Passion and Death in our hearts to receive His plenitude of efficacious graces, just as the two lost sheep on the Road to Emmaus finally did. It is only the sacrifice of a contrite heart that truly saves!

    Moreover, for efficacious graces to flow freely into our hearts it is imperative that we be penitent and contrite for our sins. So, for any prayer to be thoroughly efficacious, and indeed the highest and most valuable prayer possible, the Mass itself must be penitential and prayed with a truly contrite and humble heart: a heart sorry for its sins.

    A brief look at Psalm 51 and this truth becomes crystal clear to us:

    "For in sacrifice you take no delight, burnt offering from me you would refuse, my sacrifice a contritespirit. A humbled, contrite heart you will not spurn.In your goodness, show favor to Zion: rebuild thewalls of Jersusalem. Then you will be pleased withlawful sacrifice, holocausts offered on your altar."Psalm 51

    j hughes dunphy

  5. Anonymous5:28 PM

    Looks like another missed opportunity because with the diocese of Campos in the same country, something could have been done to highlight a model for the fruitfulness of the traditional Mass. I love Pope Benedict but I hate seeing the same old 'business as usual' Marini liturgies. God protect him during this papal trip.

  6. Anonymous6:35 PM

    It would seem Arch.Marini is still in control. I have read that he is being moved to St.Paul Outsise the Walls Church. Is that true and will it happen soon?

  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

  8. Anonymous7:34 PM

    In England back in my Parish NO Church, some years ago just after Christmas, the priest went to visit his parent living in France (the priest is French) and instead of Mass there was Eucharistic Service offered, which was simply gathering of the people AROUND THE ALTAR table reading Epistle and Gospel for the day and deacon giving the Communion (I think from consecrated Hosts kept in Tabernaculum). After that all went home. It was the most bizzare experience I have ever had. I felt stupid just running out of the Church in the middle of this - so I stayed and was suffering till the end. How something like this is possible, and is this in some way justified? What do you think?

  9. Anonymous8:46 PM

    anonymous from England: this is the future of the Catholic Church. The NO rite does not produce its own priests. The Communion Service will be the norm within 15 years in most "parishes" in Europe and North America. That's also when you'll see the real push for the ordination of married men -- beginning with deacons. The only way this scenario can be avoided is if the Traditional Mass is permitted it's own jurisdictional ordinariate.

    All my opinion.

  10. Anonymous8:50 PM

    I'm going to be sick. The theological ambiguity and murkiness . . . the awkward and trite use of language, is about as inspiring as a cheap dime store novel found in the reduced rack at the local drugstore. What is more, to be constantly interrupted by needless, distracting and cleverly deceptive responses prevents one from truly contemplating the great Mystery that lay before him. I don’t think they could have succeeded any further in destroying the sense of the sacred even if they tried. As to the "Wine that... gives courage" . . . I could certainly use a good one after reading that rubbish (and I’m not referring to the sacred species either. Forgive them Father . . . even though they may know what they are doing!

  11. I'm surprised EP V wasn't formulated by the bishops of Holland in the 1960s and then it could have been 'wine that gives dutch courage'.

  12. Cannot the Holy Father just go ahead and use the Canon despite the nifty program printed by the wonderful Marini?

  13. Anonymous10:58 PM

    thetimman: probably not, programs are usualy printed well in advance.

  14. Anonymous11:15 PM

    There was a story some years ago about the consecration (installation?) of Abp. Connell who was not pleased with some of the nonsense planned for the celebration. When he objected the person in charge is supposed to have pointed out that the programme was already printed. The Abp. is supposed to have said:"Well, we'll have to print another one won't we" or something like that.

  15. Anonymous12:15 AM

    While I share fully the disgust at the heretical naming of Christ's blood as 'wine that gives courage' and the numerous other protestant practices imbued in this prayer (any wonder that Catholics have left the Church in Brazil in droves for 'evangelical' sects?), allow me to play devil's advocate on the comments regarding the usage of "O" before the Lord's name. The Latin does not use an 'O' and uses strictly 'Deus' or 'Dominus'. Would it not be more faithful to the traditional rite to omit the "O"?

  16. The "O" would be necessary in a Portuguese reverent translation, as the author makes clear.

    Remember that this Eucharistic Prayer was composed in Portuguese and truly only the Institution Narrative can be compared with the Latin typical texts -- and even so, when there is no Latin typical text, one is left only with the "Portuguese typical text" -- which is irreverent for Portuguese lexical standards, as the author explains in the text.

  17. Although I detest fabricated Eucharistic Prayers, couldn't the "Wine that... gives courage" be a refernce to Psalm 103:15?

  18. But the problem is that there is no wine present when they are saying that phrase. The word in context implicitly denies the transubstantiation.

    Much the same is true of the "when we eat this bread..." acclamation, which (although it comes from Scripture) is out of place when Christ is substantially present on the altar.

  19. "the usage of "O" before the Lord's name. The Latin does not use an 'O' and uses strictly 'Deus' or 'Dominus'. Would it not be more faithful to the traditional rite to omit the "O"?"

    No, it wouldn't.

    It's true that in Latin, there is no particular form of the vocative for "Deus" ("God"), that distinguishes it from the nominative.

    But when speaking to the Lord, one says in Latin, "Domine", not "Dominus". "Domine" is vocative and in English, the standard way to translate the vocative is to use "O". (Think of "Domine, non sum dignus" before the reception of communion.)

    When one addresses Our Lord using the Holy Name of "Jesus" or His Title of "Christ", one again uses the vocative "Jesu" or "Christe", not the nominative "Jesus" or "Christus". (Think of "Laus tibi, Christe" after the proclamation of the Holy Gospel or "Domine Fili Unigenite, Jesu Christe" from the Gloria [which actually has all three of those vocative, now that I think of it!])

    Since when one addresses a person in Latin one is always really using the vocative even when the form isn't distinctive, it makes sense to use "O" whenever one finds a vocative. And since in English and many other modern languages this has now aquired a solemn tone of poetic supplication, it is even more fitting for a liturgical translation.

  20. Anonymous3:43 AM

    What are we to think about Pope Benedict XVI and this pathetic liturgy? His Holiness is perhaps demented and doesn't know what he is doing? His Holiness is a pansy who is just doing what he is told? His Holiness is in full agreement with the principles espoused by Marini the Destroyer? His Holiness is being blackmailed to shut up and put up with this liturgical idiocy - at least until he has enough of his men in the Vatican to promote some other program? I don't have any idea. I can only believe this madness continues as a punishment from God for our lukewarmness and worldliness.

  21. We are the times: such as we are, such are the times.

    St.Aug. Serm.80.

  22. What exactly is that picture, some sort of gear assembley with a butcher's block in the middle of it? It's not a Roman Catholic church, and from what I read of that drivel you call an Eucharistic Prayer V, that's no valid Catholic mass. I denigrate and reject it. There is no love, certainly no fear or respect in it for Christ or his church. Away with such foolishness. I have no time for it. They are protestants already.

  23. Anonymous12:37 PM

    Jeff, many thanks for your studious explanation of the vocative usage to my question on the usage of 'O'.

    Someone else has now stated that this Mass was not valid. No liturgical expert I, however my understanding was that the Ordo itself is the prayerful encapsulation of the actual Mass which itself relates to the Consecration itself. Validity would be contingent specifically on the consecration formula and the faith of the priest in his action. In such case, notwithstanding the confusion created by the use of 'all' instead of 'pro multis' the consecration used in this para-ordo is a valid consecration. A saint once declared of an evil priest that"darkness surrounded" his ordo prayers during Mass until the consecration when a Divine light destroyed that darkness during consecration. Any comments on the validity of a consecration surrounded even by this pathetic ordo?

  24. Anonymous3:28 PM

    Anonymous 20:46 Communion service:
    This is tragic, the experience was very bad, soon after by God's grace I found Tridentine Mass and am happy ever after. The biggest problem is that great number of NO Roman CAtholics just see it as normal and is willing now to accept anything. They lost touch with true Catholicism, what they are fed now is mere Protestantism and they seem to be happy woth it. Traditionalists are schismatics and crazy in common opinion ans to avoided. If Pope Benedict does not release TLM for normal use the damage will be soon difficult to reverse.

  25. Where is the link to the original text in Portuguese?

  26. Anonymous12:56 AM


    You can acess the original Portuguese version of Eucharistic Prayer V, preceeded by its proper preface (although other prefaces can be used instead of the proper one) at:

    The translation to English was done by me in an amateur capacity.



    Could you please clarify who are you reffering to when you say "They are already protestant?"


    Furthermore, I feel compelled to add that, although I greatly dislike that prayer, so much so that I decided to write about it, I nevertheless have no doubt that this prayer, when recited over true bread and wine by a priest with the intention of doing what the Church does when She celebrates the Eucharist, results in a valid celebration of the Sacrament, that brings about the real Presence of our Lord, and makes again present His sacrifice of redemption, like all other eucharistic prayers approved by the competent ecclesiastical authority, in this case the Holy Apostolic See.

    I believe that the Holy Spirit, that guides and protects the Church, although not preventing Church authorities from legislating the establishment of ugly rites, does prevent the Church from adopting rites that would be invalid; that is, the Holy Spirit makes sure that the rubrics of the rites approved by the Church contain the bare minimum of form required for validity.

    Therefore, Hebdomadary, I must disagree with your accessment that Eucharistic Prayer V is incapable of producing a valid Catholic Mass.

    The fact that the rubrics of the Euch. Prayer V contain the bare minimum form required for validity, however, does not change the fact that it is ugly, and should never have been adopted into the liturgy of the Holy Church.

  27. Anonymous1:00 AM


    That´s the picture of the High Altar of the "new" Cathedral Basilica of Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception "Aparecida", a.k.a. the "National Shrine of the Patroness of Brazil" (consacrated a few decades ago).

    The "old" Cathedral of Aparecida, also a Basilica, was built in the Tridentine Times, in more appropriate style.

  28. Eric G.

    don't you play the Alto Sax or something? I assume that is an example of socratic irony? I hope so, but In your case it may be the old irony tragique.

    If anyone would like an illustration of a. insanity, and b. why "traditional" Catholics get a "bum rap" (to quote the John Keats), anc c. an agent provocateur at work, look no further.

    I just wonder how many of you actually agree with Eric.

  29. Due to one particularly despicable comment, which has been deleted, this thread is currently suspended.