Rorate Caeli

"The service made me...just for a split-second – wish I was an Anglican"

Since the masterwork of Pope Montini and Annibale destroyed all previous "pageantry" of the Latin Church - the "pageantry" Anglicans copied in the two previous centuries, since they could not copy Apostolic Succession and valid orders, and added to the traditions, including the choral tradition, that had remained from the pre-Protestant centuries -, these comparisons are really moot. Most Catholics today simply do not know what full traditional Papal and Pontifical liturgies look like or did look like.

As for the "Church of England", the best we can say about it is what is said of her illustrious daughter, the "Episcopal Church": it is neither Episcopal, nor a Church. It is of England, not like Stock, More, and Byrd, but like binge-drinking or association football.

Now, could the usurped buildings be returned, please?

Note: Yes, there is a very legitimate English spiritual heritage that is to be recovered by the Ordinariates in what promises to be a bright future. All that now seems empty (Non est hic) pageantry and, hence, necessarily vulgar, as Fr. Blake points out, can be gloriously transformed: Ecce nova facio omnia.


  1. Anonymous1:57 PM

    Unfortunate comparison with Association Football.

    Football (soccer) is one of the greatest sports ever invented by mankind, whereas the Church of England is not a Church.

    Then, the comparison is unfair not with the C of E, with football.

  2. Just a joke, anon.


  3. Soccer is a sport?


  4. Anonymous2:20 PM

    The Anglicans are more of a church than football (soccer) is a sport. But still, yikes. This is a bit offensive for a hapless protestant like me, who, apparently, has been under a false assumption all these years that I've been going to church. Apparently, I've just been playing at it.

  5. Yes, given all the news we read about homosexuals and women priests and lady bishops, did anyone else feel what kind of massive cognitive dissonance must have gone into the wedding for all the guests, Elton John among them, to sit there and listen to words about the holy estate of matrimony and the reason why it exists (man and woman, children, etc.) that even the fake prelates of the CoE don't take seriously anymore?

  6. Mr Thompson, an anglicanophile?
    Come now. Did anyone listen to the sermon of Dr Chartres?

    If this ceremony was vulgar, then i would advise you to watch the coronation services of George VI and of the present Queen.

    God save the Queen!

    Domine, salvum fac Reginam nostram Elizabeth.

    Et exaudi nos in die, qua invocaverimus te.

  7. Pio Nono3:23 PM

    @ Pastor Mack:
    There is a distinction in Catholic ecclesiology between ecclesial communities and proper churches. Churches must be a community of Christians led by a bishop with valid orders in the apostolic line. Since most western Protestants, including Anglicans/Episcopals, lack this, they are not proper churches but rather ecclesial communities according to our theology. Please see

  8. "Soccer is a sport?"

    Along with boxing one of the most physically demanding.

  9. Boxing is a sport??

  10. Anonymous4:25 PM

    Boxing is a pastime that takes place in the grandstands of soccer stadiums.

  11. Anonymous5:09 PM

    "Physically demanding"?

    Yeah, running around in shorts and pretending to be injured has got to be brutal.

  12. Anonymous7:32 PM

    Jordanes, please define "sport".

  13. sport
    [spawrt, spohrt]

    an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, hunting, fishing, etc., but, sadly, not boxing, and emphatically not soccer.

  14. Oh, and not hockey either.

    [Quickly runs away before he is beaten senseless by a mob of offended Canadians. . . . ]

  15. Anonymous9:06 PM

    Does this site now have "open Line Friday"?


  16. Curious to note how slowly the rules of Association Football have evolved (the present, troubling offside rule excepted) and there has been no hermeneutic of discontinuity as a result.

    Yes, the comparison with the C of E is an insult to FIFA.

  17. Anonymous10:11 PM

    Has anyone noticed that Rowan Williams said "what God has put together, let no man turn asunder" without any embarrassment, when the so-called c of E does allow man to turn asunder what God has put together?

    What is next? An invitation for Elton John?


  18. Anonymous10:14 PM

    The so-called church of England does remind one of the French team by the latest world cup.

  19. Anonymous11:36 PM

    Jordanes, you will definitelhy go to hell for saying that hockey and football (i.e. soccer) are not sports.

    But it does not surpise me to asset that the Church of England, as she now is and ever has been, is a game. After all, so is Parliament. That's why our politicians sit in opposite benches, like teams facing each other.


  20. Anonymous12:07 AM

    The Benedictine arrangement of the abbey really struck me. I guess I had never really seen the inside of the abbey and it took me a second to get oriented.
    It was a bit sad to reflect that the abbey was likely once full of Catholic monks and other's worshiping with them. I was struck with the look of the abbey vs too many suburban church boxes.

  21. Jordanes, you will definitelhy go to hell for saying that hockey and football (i.e. soccer) are not sports.

    Alright, alright, they're sports. Unbearable to watch, so much investment of time and emotion in the games for so little payoff (hence the violence to give everyone a break from the tedium), but sports.

  22. First to the jocular - obviously the only sports are those played by (north) Americans (whose rules are now designed for maximum advertising, did i hear mammon?)

    But seriously, is there not a little glimmer of good in the ceremony that is being decried? Were that the many, many banal OF weddings could have texts of such beauty and orthodoxy? And who can say whether the use of those texts, and imho the quite good oration of the (anglican) Bishop of London, might not touch the hears and minds of the millions of viewers, that this ceremony did not in some way reposit a traditional view of marriage.

  23. It is the constant movement fraught with the possibility of scoring at almost any moment that makes football, or some here say, futbol, so interesting. Hala Madrid!

  24. Johnny Domer2:06 AM

    Nobody more aptly described the "C"of E than Robert Bolt in A Man for All Seasons:

    "The Church of England, that finest flower of our Island genius for compromise; that system, peculiar to these shores, the despair of foreign observers, which deflects the torrents of religious passion down the canals of moderation."

  25. Well said, NC, about Damian Thompson's post: the issue isn't the glories of Anglicanism, but the splendours of Roman ceremony which were cast aside.

  26. Bob K.2:25 AM

    The Bishop of London, may have given a descent sermon. But remember he is very "Anti-Catholic". He refused to meet the Pope on his visit to the UK, and has went on record to say that no Anglicans who join the Ordinariate will ever be able to share Churches with the CoE in his Diocese. And we talk "charitable". Kind of like the Episcopal Church in the US selling a Church to Muslims, vs selling it to Anglo-Catholics. Don't judge a book by it's cover!.

  27. First to the jocular - obviously the only sports are those played by (north) Americans (whose rules are now designed for maximum advertising, did i hear mammon?)

    Well said.

    It is the constant movement fraught with the possibility of scoring at almost any moment that makes football, or some here say, futbol, so interesting.

    Ah, if only there really were a possibility of scoring at almost any moment -- or rather, there weren't the probability that most games will end with little or no score. . . .

    Well, I've had way too much fun here today. I must confess, however, that while I'm not a soccer fan and find it uninteresting, I feel the same way about every sport, except maybe horse racing. Maybe. I just couldn't resist a little razzing of our devotees of soccer/football, which I know is, for some reason, the most popular sport on the planet.

  28. Gratias5:43 AM

    Stayed up late to watch the entire Royal wedding last night. Quite liked the young Prince and Bride. Listening to prelate Rowan Williams made me very glad to be a traditional Catholic. He droned on and on for a good half hour explaining how a Royals are just like everyone else. The British hymns sung by the attendees were only missing a chain of people holding hands to replicate a Modernist Novus Ordo Mass. No Transubstantiation or Communion. Not enough Hocus Pocus to be considered a sacrament in my opinion.

  29. It is of England, not like Stock, More, and Byrd, but like binge-drinking or association football.

    Hey! What's with the sneer to football?

    Football is the true Catholic game. It's universal aka catholic.

    Americans don't like it because they're Protestant.

  30. Gottfried8:46 AM

    There are only three sports motor/
    motorcycle racing, mountaineering,
    and bullfighting; everything else
    being merely games. Gottfried

  31. For Jordanes,
    One of the members of our Traditional Latin Mass community is a man who once was a famous footballer but who did not cultivate the vices for which footballers are sometimes notorious. His only 'vice' was, and still is, an interest in horse racing. Although I generally do not follow the horses myself he sometimes gives me a tip. One of our favourite true stories concerns May 24, the feast of Our Lady Help of Christians. On that particular day the most important race in the city took place, with a stunning outcome. The horse that was set to win the race, Freemason, was pipped at the post by Bush Padre.

  32. It is no coincidence that prior to Vatican II, soccer's offside rule was perfectly understandable, without a hint of ambiguity.


    Two notes on the Royal Wedding liturgy:

    1) Holy Ghost, not Holy Spirit (*).
    2) The omission of "thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory."


    * An anecdote: Perhaps "only in Liverpool". Within 20 yards of each other, there are two curiously named buildings in the Ford area of the city. The first is called "Holy Spirit" - a Catholic church. The other, directly opposite, is called "Holy Ghost" - which is a Catholic parochial club. One changed its name after Vatican II. The other decided to keep its original name because it was so ingrained in local consciousness. You really couldn't make it up! The beautiful irony, though, is that no matter how modern the actual building of the new church, "Holy Spirit", is, it is now host to an Extraordinary Form Mass at least once a week, thanks to the kindly and humble resident PP, Fr Harris, becoming the fourth priest of the Archdiocese to incorporate the aims of Summorum Pontificum into ordinary parish schedules. "It's the highlight of my week," he has said. Deo gratias.


  33. Anonymous5:54 AM

    One thing i though was weird was that in the Our Father they said "Our Father, which is in Heaven" or did i hear wrong?

  34. Anonymous3:50 PM

    I am aware of the distinction in Catholic ecclesiology. What bothers me is the delight in which some folks on this blog seem to take in putting the "--" around church. Call it ecclesiology if you wish; it strikes me as arrogance. The language is such that one would believe the wedding took place on a beach with a Unitarian Universalist minister and a hippie drummer for an accompanist.


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