Rorate Caeli

Badmouthing Traditional Catholics

A "Catholic Truth Society" booklet harshly criticizes and misrepresents Traditional-minded Catholics - one would expect better from the CTS. 

The Chairman of the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales explains the many problems with this publication. The problems begin, we would say, by treating all who love the Tradition and traditions of the Latin Church as a kind of "tribe" that ought to be "explained"... Cardinal Vaughan, who founded the CTS, and James Britten, who spearheaded it, would be surprised to know that the people who wish to carry on the only Catholic practices and beliefs that they ever knew and cherished somehow needed to be "explained". They are Catholics, that is all, as Vaughan and Britten were.

[Recess continues.]


  1. Anil Wang12:01 PM

    I have not read the CTS publication on this but if it is as you describe, what is the problem? Does not 1 Peter 3:15-16 say?

    "But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you. But with modesty and fear, having a good conscience: that whereas they speak evil of you, they may be ashamed who falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ".

    Yes, to non-Traditional Catholics, Traditional Catholics are "a tribe" within Catholicism, little different than all the Eastern Catholic Churches, except the Eastern Catholic Churches don't seem to criticize the common Catholic NO mass (since they're not Latin Rite). Without giving a reason for the hope that is in you, Traditional Catholics will either remain a fringe movement with Catholicism, or NO (95% Latin Rite) parishes will collapse and only TLM parishes will survive. Neither case is good, unless the NO mass is restored to where it should have been.

  2. Anonymous12:16 PM

    Anil Wang,

    As traditionalist Catholics, generally speaking, simply hold to what was and always has been taught, it is actually everyone else that has the 'splaining to do. For starters, how did so many popes, prelates, saints, scholars, mystics, martyrs and confessors over the course of 1,600 to 1,900 years, depending upon the subject, get certain key beliefs and values so wrong without compromising the viability and integrity of the faith? And if they were so wrong about some things, as Second Vaticanists seem to hold or at least imply, how do we know there aren't other things they supposedly got wrong that we will for informed of in the future?

  3. As I have stated before, when the modernist process of liberalising new catholicism arrived in the post-conciliar era those who wanted only to remain truly as they had been taught became objects of scorn, ridicule, criticism, and could be accused of disobedience, schism, heresy and loss of faith. I heard presbyters and the like speak ill of tradition and lampoon the orthodox norms and values of Roman catholicism. New catholics today who accuse traditional Catholics of the same fail to comprehend that it is the liberals who brought in division, hatred of tradition and disobedience to the Maegesterium - studying closely what has transpired in the once Roman Catholic Church over the last 50 years is an objective demonstration of that.

    Who is disobedient now? who advocates division? who are the compromisers? who is judging whom? who truly follows what the church teaches to be true?

  4. Anonymous12:43 PM

    Right on, LeonG, right on! It's we traditionalists that are the problem (sarcasm).

    LtCol Paul E. Haley, USAF(Ret)

  5. Anonymous12:56 PM

    It's a ghastly little booklet which I neither enjoyed nor learned from.I cannot see the point of its publication. Poeple will learn more from the Wikipaedia article on Traditional Catholicism. [not Catholic Traditionalism, change inversion]

  6. I have encountered a seething hatred for "traditionalist" by a great many Catholics and it has always made me wonder what is behind it. Not all Catholics mind you ... but a great many professional Catholics who hold power in the Church.

    Certainly this much hatred couldn't possibly be caused by incense, bells, and polyphony. No, what they truly hate is solemnity towards God. It drives them nuts to think of themselves as below God.

    In essence they are a propagators of the great lie that Vatican II changed the dogmas of the Church and that a whole new set of dogmas were created by an unwritten "spirit of the council" ... as if that were possible.

    They truly hate the teachings of the Church. Even in silence, the Traditional Mass transmits the one true Faith in a way that they cannot stand (or kneel or sit).

  7. The vehemence, and I do not mean scorn, that I have heard, from clergy, relative to earlier priests, who merely attempted to continue within the vows they had taken at ordination, was evil.

    They could not hold a candle to those priests - who created and held parishes together, to the detriment of their own healths in many cases.

  8. This is soooooo Anglican! In the 1980s a book came out on "Anglican Catholicism" which explained what Catholicism is all about to the vast majority of Anglicans. The foreword was by the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Robert Runcie. But Anglicanism had always been broad on matters of liturgy and doctrine. So a book like this was expected

    So I can just conclude that Roman Catholicism is as broad or even broader than Anglicanism (which implies all sorts of doctrinal and liturgical innovations) that a book on Catholic Truth about the Traddies had to see print!

    So a book like that is expected!

  9. rodrigo3:45 PM

    England, dear England. Where Catholics once were smeared and hunted by the State, they now find themselves slandered and betrayed by those supposed to promote the Faith... all while unspeakable sins are promoted by the English hierarchy.

    Pray for Our Lady's dowry!

  10. Anil Wang4:01 PM

    Anonymous, yes Traditional Catholicism is true Catholicism, but that it still demands explanation.

    Look at the Church Fathers. In particular, Justin Martyr. Christians were assumed by the general population to be involved in canibilism, incest, and involved in rituals such as kneeling to examine the genitals of priests (a.k.a. communion) and other illicit acts. There were many Gnostics that called themselves Christians and thought of themselves as Christian and they made the waters more muddy. It's all well and good to say that "We're the True Church and we have no explaining to do, they do." but it's pointless. The True Church is persecuted nonetheless. The True Church is discredited nonetheless. Justin Martyr (in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15-16) knew that it's irrelevant if you're right if you're associated (both internally and externally) with people who discredit the faith.

    You might think, we're the real thing so we don't care what others think, let them come to us. That all fine and good but as Jesus said, in "Luke 11:33", :"No man lighteth a candle, and putteth it in a hidden place, nor under a bushel; but upon a candlestick, that they that come in, may see the light". Why would you wish to let others obscure that light?

  11. Anonymous4:52 PM


    I agree, but most of those who regard traditionals with utter disdain and contempt are only useful idiots. They just follow the party line blindly and mindlessly.


  12. A majority of the priests I knew as a youngster left the post-conciliar presbyterate: married divorced women; had adulterous affairs or married under more normal circumstances and so on. Many left their state of life without papal permission. Others had nervous breakdowns; lost faith in church teachings on transubstantiation; magesterial teachings and Holy Scriptures as being the Word of God and so forth. Over the years since, I have known personally and been scandalised by sodomite priests & religious, one an abbot; alcoholics; ones prominent in the homosexual movement in Scotland & elsewhere; a prosecuted thief and others with significant psychological disorders. There were also those who opted for other strategies such as the Neo-Catechumenal Way or the Charismatic Movement as they felt the NO was a complete sham & their vocations were in real consequential danger.
    In fact, lamentable to admit, I have known very few spiritually sound priests outside of the traditional church.

    Perhaps the CTS would like me to write a pamphlet about my personal experiences inside the NO. On the other hand, they would probably not believe me.

  13. Anonymous6:17 PM

    When will the changes end. The future belongs to the East either Islam or Orthodoxy.

    My guess Orthodoxy, because it still teaches the Chritianity of the early Church.

  14. NOTHING bothers the peace of mind of the self-identified "conservative" or "orthodox", OF-attending Catholic, than the existence of the traditional Catholic. How do I know? I was one of them.

    The heresy and liturgical abuse of the "left" is more easily reconciled, but the thought that there might be more to the faith, and the liturgy, that would mean I have to change even more, is very scary indeed.

  15. Anonymous7:33 PM

    "The future belongs to the East either Islam or Orthodoxy."

    Rubbish. The seat of the Church militant is the Bishop of Rome.

    And I'd bet our Orthodox brothers would take offense at being lumped in with a false religion.


  16. Anonymous1:36 AM

    Speaking of Catholics and Tradition (at least Latin Church Tradition)...(I hope that the following is appropriate to post here):

    St. Mark's Catholic Church, (Plano, Texas, Dallas Diocese) offers a Latin Mass each Monday at 7:00 P.M.

    The "tribe" increases.


  17. Anonymous3:17 AM

    You have to understand that from the perspective of an Orthodox Christian there is little evidence--especially in light of Vatican II to suggest that Rome has to be taken seriously. After Vatican II the Roman Catholic Church fell like a house of cards caught in breeze from an open window in a matter of decades. Orthodoxy could never have a Vatican II because there is no one man in Orthodoxy who can mandate novelty from on high and demand worldwide obedience to it. Traditionalists have to realize that they area tiny minority in a Church that doesn't want them, that is embarassed by them. You have your chapels and your Mass and have what the Church used to be but outside your enclaves the Roman Church is in shambles and it doesn't attract or fool many, much less the Orthodox.

  18. Gratias3:30 AM

    The English "Catholic" detractors only need attend a traditional missa cantata and they will come to our side.

  19. Anonymous5:54 AM

    I had been reluctant to call myself a traditionalist Roman Catholic simply because Roman Catholics historically have always been thought of as "traditional". Until da...da... da...da....!

    I've changed since reading about the earthquake in the Church over the last 50 years. The word "traditional" itself has become "a dirty word" like purity, chastity, austerity, penance, sacrifice. Expressions like self-control, chastisement for sins, God's wrath, hell as eternal punishment and many othe words and expressions are simply taboo in this new Church that doeen't want to offend anyone except Traditional Catholics. Something is definitely wrong and it is not "what the Church has always taught to be true".
    I mean what's the point of a religion that requires no effort on our part? All religions have their unchangeable traditions. How strange that the only true religion should so easily fall away from its timeless traditions.
    During the past few years I have seen the fangs of many when they hear of my embracing the TLM. How the old Mass is hated is a thing to behold! Amazing!
    I am thought of as being an extremist because I attend it. Incredible. I don't care anymore. Instead I have never been happier in the Church. Like a very famous Cardinal (if I may be so bold to paraphrase) I could attend TLMS for ever and never be tired.

    Long live Roman Catholic Tradition!


  20. Anonymous1:17 PM

    "How the old Mass is hated is a thing to behold! Amazing!"

    Even more amazing is the reality that our Churchmen initiated the process that turned the Traditional Mass into an object of hatred.

    Beginning in the late 1960s, our Churchmen instilled within the hearts and minds of the Faithful that the Traditional Roman Mass was to be despised.



  21. Ld Schmidt2:16 PM

    I've alway's been taken back as to how Traditionalism of 1900yrs has in just 50yrs =/- been replaced by the NO stuff. Right on Leon G for your observations. May our Infant Child Jesus intercede for us in our stance to this cancer which is modernism in the Church. Larry

  22. M. A.3:13 PM

    A. Wang suggests patient explanation to those who badmouth us, but there are times when all we can do is shake the dust off our feet. Below is a portion of a comment submitted to my blog by someone who referred to herself as a "faithful" Catholic. I tried to have an exchange with the person but she would not answer my simple questions. Her verbal barrage just drips with disdain. These type do not want an explanation. They just want to hate.

    She wrote:

    “ all are the ones who have a problem with the Church…..It seems that whether it is in regard to music, or whatever else, you are the divisive one. You and your comrades in arms are dangerously close to schism it appears…..It is sad to think that now you feel vindicated by the widespread celebration of the 1962 Missal as directed by Pope Benedict. I fear he isn’t aware that he gives your types ammunition. ..You take this statement from a Pope which doesn’t bear any doctrinal weight nor any magisterial authority and you elevate it to just that. However, when it regards Vatican II you demote the conciliar teachings to being something optional. You need to do a lot of praying and try to avoid becoming the Protestants you abhor.” [sic]

    Isn't that lovely?

  23. CAIN

    They love to share
    They tolerate
    The TRUE Mass, though
    They separate

    They always give
    They're never late
    Their NEW indulgence
    Up to date

    The TRUE Mass, let
    You operate
    But ghettoize
    And segregate

    The TRUE Mass, let
    You contemplate
    Their NEW remember

  24. Anonymous5:52 PM

    "inside the NO"

    That's an opinion I find hard to believe. It also does not help very much to believe it, if it were true, because the NO is not only the sole or biggest cause of problems in the Catholic Church; it is not even, as practiced, the NO, but some derivative. To lead Catholics back to truth we do no good whatsoever by espousing narrow and historically ungrounded notions. As the Pope clearly seems to believe, change must come slowly, on a number of fronts in liturgy, for truth to be told and lived.

  25. Anonymous6:35 PM

    For four years I have assisted the TLM, I find real peace within, many asked me " do you understand latin?" my answer to them I undertsand only true peace, yes I do not understand latin, but my Saviour Jesus understand me, after four years and now I can truly say I have grown in faith and virtues, well someone once asked me, what do I get out of TLM, I said TLM are like many layer of safety nets, it prevent me from falling too far, yes other people take offend whenever I told them about TLM, which I become a fulltime promoted, I heard many comment, giving me many cold shoulder ( once the same people give me hugs and kisses) but now freezing cold look, but deep down I said " Thank you Jesus and Mary for I love you and also forgive those who do not know you, you have teaches me the way to love you and thank you for the peace I receive from you, I want to give others the same peace and love you have given me in the silentness of the TLM low Mass and thank you for the grace to understand the TLM without words"


  26. Dear MikeB at 18:35

    How very true and a most profoundly beautiful reflection.

  27. Anonymous9:41 PM

    For Mike B,

    What a beautiful witness.
    God bless you!

  28. Anonymous11:28 PM

    You know, I am tired of this. Ever since 1970, when I had to explain and justify my reasons for wanting to enter a cloistered monastery of nuns (the cloistered life was held in horror in the early post-Vatican II years...the only reason anyone could possibly have to enter one would have to be that they were "mentally ill") to a Jesuit that looked like William F. Buckley, I have had to endure ill treatment just for being what I always had been.

    Tom, when it comes to what they want to do, they move with lightening speed. They only drag the feet when we're being thrown a few crumbs.


  29. Byzcat2:15 AM

    Traditional Catholics suffered for 40 years with liturgical abuse and experimentation while the churches emptied and were filled with compromise. This hatred for those who love Christ and the ancient Liturgy can have only one source, and that is the Enemy of souls.

  30. Anonymous12:06 AM

    "Tom, when it comes to what they want to do, they move with lightening speed."

    I know. I don't buy the "Rome must move at a snail's pace" argument.

    1. The Church is in dire straits. We don't have decades to spare when it comes to the restoration of Holy Tradition.

    2. As you stated, our Churchmen, if they desired, could move with lightning speed (to restore Tradition and order within the Church).


  31. Anonymous10:11 PM

    Two days ago I noted here that a Latin Mass is offered Mondays at 7:00 P.M. at St. Mark's parish in Plano, Texas (Dallas Diocese).

    The following is from St. Mark's bulletin:

    "Bishop Farrell has designated St. Mark as the site for an experimental Latin Mass.

    "This will not be the Mass in the Extraordinary Form, which uses the 1962 Missal of Blessed John XXIII.

    "It will be the Mass in the Ordinary Form, which uses the 1969Missal of Pope Paul VI.

    "It will be fully participatory and special missalettes will be provided.

    "The music will be Gregorian Chant.

    "The Mass will be on Monday evenings at 7 PM in the main church."


  32. Anonymous5:53 PM

    I love and attend the TLM every day of the week by God's loving providence, but it must also be remembered that, as Fr. Feeney said, "When it comes to praying, Dogmas come first, not liturgies." When they lost the Faith by thinking that It was not necessary for salvation, the form of Mass became irrelevant to them. They are enemies of the Catholic Faith. A Loyal Reader

  33. RIP Malachi Martin. He spoke the trueth about what went on by the high powers of the Prince of this world from within the Vatican and the Banks and the governments and the divisions of Heresy, he explained so much and he personally knew 3 Popes and his own enemies who he practically lived with. Our Lady of Fatima, Fiat Voluntas tua! Traditional rite Forever!


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