Rorate Caeli

PCED responds:
Use of Traditional Liturgical Books of Religious Orders
"pertains to the superior of those orders"

Recently, a letter was written to PCED asking if it was possible utilize the liturgical variations that were particular to a certain religious order as it was used before it adopted the liturgical reforms of Vatican II. In the same letter, the question was asked if it would be possible to use the ritual in use up to 1962 for the secular (third) order which is part of that same religious order.
PCED response:


  1. Anonymous7:55 PM

    Marie Reine du Canada

    Ecce Fiat (part 1) : The Monks of Clear Creek

    Benedictine Monks of Clear Creek Monastery in Tulsa.Ok

  2. I assume this would apply to the Carmelite and Dominican Rites.

  3. I inquired about the possibility of forming a Carmelite third Order attached to the Pre-Vatican II liturgy, but I was told that that would be impossible because the "Lord of the Realm" :-) {Provincial General) forbade it.

    Other than pray, what can one do???

  4. Anonymous11:12 PM

    Would a question pertaining to the reverse of this situation (i.e. a request concerning an Order that used the traditional liturgy) receive the same answer or would they have to cave to the demands of someone wanting the Novus Ordo?

  5. Anonymous11:19 PM

    Several of the traditionalist societies and orders have permission from Rome to use Uses which correspond to their spirituality. For example, the Society of St. Vincent Ferrer in France is not officially Dominican and cannot use the Dominican name but is Dominican in all other respects, including that of liturgy.

    Such traditioanlist societies and orders can indeed use the pre-conciliar mendicant and monastic uses. In addition, others can when, as Msgr. Pozzo points out, they have permission from their superiors.

    In all such cases, these priests were not using the 1962 Missal in the first place. That means that the 2008 alteration to that missal does not apply to them, since it only replaced the 1962 version specifically. Other societies have written into their statutes the 1920 Holy Week ritual. As for the rest, they have never celebrated the 1962 Mass under general law but under laws proper to their statutes. I'll leave it at that ....


  6. Anonymous11:21 PM

    Dear M.A.:

    In the strict sense, yes, it is impossible. But it would be possible, at least in theory, to form such an order but without using the Carmelite name. It would be possible to apply, either to Rome or to the Diocese bishop, for an order of this kind. Of course, it isn't easy: you need people, funding, &c.


  7. John L12:06 AM

    Actually this is encouraging; it means that the only condition for an order's going back to its proper liturgy is the agreement of the superior - no consultation with Rome is required.

  8. Anonymous1:29 AM

    I know of a new , cloistered Order of monks in Mexico which uses the Franciscan rule and observances from I think, the 16th century practices.

    They use the Tridentine Latin Mass, are tonsured, wear grey and black version of the Franciscan Friars Minor habit (grey habit, black scapular and capuche), but their disiplines are taken from the 16th century observances. Very austere.
    They even speak to visitors from behind a grill, like cloistered nuns.
    I never knew that before Vatican II, some cloistered groups of monks did actually keep the grill like the nuns.
    These monks have approval from the Ecclesiae Dei Office ( granted in 2000), but are hated by the Vatican II Franciscans in the area.
    Guess that's because in 11 years, these monks have gone from 3 members, to nearly 25, while the local Franciscan friary went from 20, to the most recent (2008 when I was there)...4. LOL !!!

  9. M. A.1:59 AM

    Thanks, PKTP, but mine is not the mission for such an endeavor. That would be quite an undertaking!

  10. M. A.2:10 AM

    " means that the only condition for an order's going back to its proper liturgy is the agreement of the superior..."

    Then we must pray for the removal of obstacles, i.e., superiors who forbid it.

  11. Anonymous5:44 AM

    Does anyone know where this leaves the Cistercians of Mariawald, Germany, who about a year ago announced their intention to revert to pre-1962 usages? I understand that this was controversial within the order of Cistercians of the Strict Observance (OCSO), and I am not sure if the superiors of the Order were in favour of the move.

  12. Anonymous9:02 AM

    Mariawald did return to the pre-conciliar Use and its Masses are now listed on the German Pro Missa Tridentina website. After some trouble, Rome overruled a superior's objection. I don't remember the details now but the traditionalist at Mariawald were allowed to return to the pre-conciliar Use.


  13. Anonymous9:04 AM

    Dear Augustine:

    There are various Dominicans using the pre-conciliar Dominican Use, including one on a regular basis in Alaska. There are others in California. I'm not positive if the Carmelite monks of Wyoming use the Carmelite Use but I believe so. They are not part of the Carm. order, though, which is why they are monks and not friars!


  14. Anonymous1:53 PM

    Dear Anaonymous: Please get us the name or website of the Franciscans in Mexico. I've never heard of them.

    Dear M.A.: A number of my Secular Discalced Carmelites would also love to join a traditional third order group, too. Since the Carmelites in Wyoming are monks, perhaps they will accept the formation of a community of Oblates?

  15. M. A.2:22 PM

    13:53, could you communicate with me regarding a Trad 3rd Order for Carmelites? I also know of a few people interested.

    doctorvici AT

  16. "Dear Anaonymous: Please get us the name or website of the Franciscans in Mexico. I've never heard of them."

    This same "Anonymous" has been spreading news of this Order for quite some time now, but when pressed for answers always lapses into silence.

  17. Friar6:17 PM

    The Dominicans mentioned as using the traditional liturgy have always done so (over 40 years) with permission of their provincial. That the provincial has the authority to grant such permission was explicit in the 1969 rescript allowing the order to adopt the new Mass and Office.

  18. Anonymous8:08 PM

    The Premonstratensian liturgy was not abrogated after Vat. II. It is sometimes still used, or at least its musical repertoire is still made use of by a number of abbeys.

  19. Anonymous5:31 AM

    Thanks Carlos for that carification:

    As editor of The Franciscan Archive (, I can assure the readers that no one has written to me about the existence of such a group in Mexico...I know of some traditionally minded ex-Conventuals there, that is all.

    I am in favor of all the traditional Franciscan groups in communion with the Apostolic See. The Friars at Morgon have an excellent liturgy, and if you ever want to see how the office ought to be done in the 1962 Capuchine Ritual, they're the place to visit.

    By the grace of God, not my own merits, the Bishop of Patti, Sicily, has allowed me to form a group (priests and brothers) which would follow the OFM customs and the unmitigated rule. I use the pre 1948 books, and wear a variation of the observant habit. Those interested can contact me via my website.

    I know of another group about to be formed in the USA, which will use the 1962 books, and follow the mitigated rule, kind of like the Capuchines of Morgon, but under a local RC bishop. But you will hear about that in the comming months, and I will let them issue their own publicity.

    Br. Alexis Bugnolo

  20. Anonymous5:10 PM

    Has the question ever been resolved if a member of a secular (third) order can recite the traditional breviary to fulfill their obligation?


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