Anonymous, it's entirely disrespectful and uncalled for to say any Mass is "worth" the same as "an old, cheap, worn-out battered Pepsi ad from 1969." I don't care if it is Novus Ordo.
Yes. This was the highpoint of his career...Hippy era posters, TV commercials, and animated cartoons featuring Beatles songs. He became a HUGE name around 1967, and faded away with the dawn of the "Disco" era (1975-to about 1979).
Wow...that lower photo looks like a zillion 'liturgies' I attended at CUA in Washington DC back in the late 70s - early 80s, courtesy of Campus Ministry.
Little wonder, therefore, the NO Rite has been called the "Nervous Disorder" elsewhere. To imagine one can maintain unity, harmony & ecclesiastical discipline with a Babel-type liturgy using already anathematised vernacular ideology that also applies "creative" principles, is signal of irrational thinking.
The consequences are demonstrably anarchic postmodernism in the "worship space" with multiple ad libs adding to other systemic illicit, sometimes invalidating postures.
Furthermore, to contemplate beatifying those responsible for such chaos is even more psychologically suspect. Who claims that there has been no paradigm change with the Conciliar church? The modern liturgy alone demonstrates objectively a paradigmatic revolution which is strategically implicated in a 180 anthropocentric degree turn throughout the norms and values represented by neo-catholicsm.
I´m worried abt two anon comments. I dont know where to suggest anon(s) start.. Maybe the catechism? Holy is Holy Mass. Pace the cure of Ars, we'd flake out permanent if we glimpsed what it IS on even backwards reflection. No mass is EVER belittleable - it is that it is hard not to feel that some celebrants, some liturgical practices,For ME NOW, quite probably for MOST and OFTEN, Perhaps for ALL,ALWAYS belittle our ..participation ..? can't remember the right term. This was all thrashed out centuries ago, regarding the priest. MAss does NOT depend on the personal holiness of the celebrant.If he is validly ordained, he may be the most hell-bound scoundrel, and Mass is still Mass. And what is it like for a massgoer who knows of his unrepentant sinning? Difficult, sooner or later scandalous.Etc. Talk abt novus ordo as a rite, as a way of celebrating mass, not as mass. This is not a please, this is a must 4 yr own good, whoever you may be. Find out abt spiritualities, while you're at it. Equally, you're in the same boat as the tabletistas, trendies, and their ilk , only agin in yr case: VII, + VII docs, + "Spirit of VII, + any nutty heretical inmoral or havycavy paganism in the church, is all one same thing ! - I agree it's a mess, I'd agree that were the trendies ( does this include any/many anglosphere bishops?) correct then root and branch it'd have to go. It's Sooooooo tempting to feel that we might have bishops now with more backbone - but vat2less bishops caved barring fisher. Young people's spirituality at any epoch may be debatable. But God send whatever bring them into the church, there at mass, God send it aint externals keep m there.
We should save our righteous indignation for the disease: the program, under papal patronage from at least 1963 to the present day, of making God's work outside the Trinity, for all practical purposes, at any rate, the perfection of man in precisely this mortal life.
And after this mortal life? If you can find an answer in the conciliar magisterium, please let me know. I haven't had much success on my own.
"I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith." You might not understand it. But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith, and closer to God.
"It did allow pervert priests to get closer to their victims." Wow. Humour! You have something you don't like, so you use it as a scapegoat for every other ill that is besetting the Church. Very classy and intelligent.
speaking of 1969, where can I find reviews of the "Cursio Movement"? I can remember going to a retreat with my parents in '73 when I was 15 and we had to turn to the person next to us and hug them and call this "love". I thought it very effeminent, as a budding male adolecsent, and it turned me off.
As far as '69 goes. I just listened to some Canned Heat on Youtube and I thought it was excellent.
With the exception of the American black civil rights movement, the 1960's were in all other ways a world wide tragedy. It is too bad that fraudulent movements, i.e. the women's movement, the "gay" liberation movement, etc. were successful in piggybacking themselves to the legitimate black civil rights movement. It is also unfortunate that Pope Paul VI went along with the 60's mentality thinking that it would be beneficial to the Church.
But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith..."
It does beg the question - which faith? and what do we mean by "so many people"? Are they Roman Catholics for the most part?
According to surveys, even those effected by the church, Sunday attendance is in dramatic decline. Also, the NO presbyterate is in dramatic decline. Churches have closed by the thousands, literally. Religious orders and the missions are in decay. Therefore,your claims ring hollow in the face of the objective evidence. We have to be honest that the NO service is a total disaster in every respect.
Dom God always seems to bring good even in not so good circumstances.
My earlier comment on how can this kind of Mass bring people close to the faith, what I truly meant is that sometimes this YOUTH MASS or Masses for the Young seem to bring a kind of mass hysteria with all the hugging and crying that goes on in them I should know I used to belong to a Youth Group similar to the one in the second picture.
What I am saying is that the hugging and the sometimes the kissing and peace and love and even some crying doesn't mean that the Young have acquire a DEEP SPIRITUAL FAITH or true conversion.
This is not to say that All these Masses for the youth, or the young are like that, but more often than not the lack of the Sacredness and the lack of reverence shown in HOLY MASS by the celebrants and the young faithful don't necessarily bring up young Catholics who are solid in their Catholic faith.
"I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith." You might not understand it. But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith, and closer to God.
"It did allow pervert priests to get closer to their victims." Wow. Humour! You have something you don't like, so you use it as a scapegoat for every other ill that is besetting the Church. Very classy and intelligent."
1). Comment regarding the first paragraph------ I doubt it very much.
2). Comment regarding second paragraph----the Novus Ordo isn't really a scapegoat for all the ills of the Church---rather it was the spark that ignited all the other abuses. Mass attendance would not have plummeted, vocations to the priesthood and religious life for men and women would not have collapsed, bizarre and blasphemous liturgies would not have been created, the circus of WYD would never have happened, our Catholic traditions and devotions would never have been trashed, and we would NOT as Catholics practically be the same as most Protestant groups today, had the Novus Ordo not appeared on the scene in 1969.
If the Novus Ordo and tjose behind it (including the last two Popes) were innocent of the disasters in the Church today...then one commentator's comment could be sarcastically be labeled "very classy and intelligent" to degrade the Novus Ordo.
Fact is, the Novus Ordo was/is the cause of all the other ailments in the Church. The "hip" movement that gave birth to the novus Ordo in the Church is today like a spreading virus, an infection left untreated for 40 years that finally needs a strong antibiotic to bring it down. That's where the Tridentine Latin Mass comes into play. It's the antiobiotic for the Church.
"But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith..."
It does beg the question - which faith? and what do we mean by "so many people"? Are they Roman Catholics for the most part?"
Leong:
A large number of the people who go to the TLM today, including the majority of the young and devout seminarians who fill the seminaries of the FSSP, ICRSS, and other similar societies, were brought up with the Novus Ordo.
It is bigots like you who do not know how to look and how to see. Better that the liturgical reform never happened, but God does exist, His grace still works, and he has managed to bring innumerable young men to the Catholic faith in all its purity and integrity even inside what you disparagingly call "the Conciliar Church" and outside of the SSPX, although I think you'd deny that as well.
"Fact is, the Novus Ordo was/is the cause of all the other ailments in the Church."
If you think that prior to 1969 everything was perfect, and that all of a sudden things collapsed on November 30, 1969, then you really need to start reading. The worm of modernism and its intellectual and spiritual progenitors had been gnawing at the structure of the Church for more than a century prior to 1969. If the Church was as strong and as healthy as you think it was, the liturgical and theological devastation of the past 40 years would never even have begun.
LOL!
ReplyDeleteThat's about what the Novus Ordo Mass is worth....an old, cheap, worn-out battered Pepsi ad from 1969
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, it's entirely disrespectful and uncalled for to say any Mass is "worth" the same as "an old, cheap, worn-out battered Pepsi ad from 1969." I don't care if it is Novus Ordo.
ReplyDeleteOther than that, clever post.
About as politely as you can put it. Even the 1962 Missal is far far better, but better still to fight for the traditional Roman rite in its entirety!
ReplyDeleteThe Novus Ordo is the biggest monument to the arrogance of man.
ReplyDeleteIs that a Peter Max watercolor?
ReplyDelete"Is that a Peter Max watercolor?"
ReplyDeleteYes. This was the highpoint of his career...Hippy era posters, TV commercials, and animated cartoons featuring Beatles songs.
He became a HUGE name around 1967, and faded away with the dawn of the "Disco" era (1975-to about 1979).
Wow...that lower photo looks like a zillion 'liturgies' I attended at CUA in Washington DC back in the late 70s - early 80s, courtesy of Campus Ministry.
ReplyDeleteKumbaya, my Lord...Kubayahhhhhh!!!!!
The mess Vatican II got us into.
ReplyDeleteThe picture of the Mass where everyone is hugging each other is so much like the WYD Mass with the Pope.
I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith.
Little wonder, therefore, the NO Rite has been called the "Nervous Disorder" elsewhere. To imagine one can maintain unity, harmony & ecclesiastical discipline with a Babel-type liturgy using already anathematised vernacular ideology that also applies "creative" principles, is signal of irrational thinking.
ReplyDeleteThe consequences are demonstrably anarchic postmodernism in the "worship space" with multiple ad libs adding to other systemic illicit, sometimes invalidating postures.
Furthermore, to contemplate beatifying those responsible for such chaos is even more psychologically suspect. Who claims that there has been no paradigm change with the Conciliar church? The modern liturgy alone demonstrates objectively a paradigmatic revolution which is strategically implicated in a 180 anthropocentric degree turn throughout the norms and values represented by neo-catholicsm.
I´m worried abt two anon comments.
ReplyDeleteI dont know where to suggest anon(s) start..
Maybe the catechism?
Holy is Holy Mass. Pace the cure of Ars, we'd flake out permanent if we glimpsed what it IS on even backwards reflection.
No mass is EVER belittleable - it is that it is hard not to feel that some celebrants, some liturgical practices,For ME NOW, quite probably for MOST and OFTEN, Perhaps for ALL,ALWAYS belittle our ..participation ..? can't remember the right term.
This was all thrashed out centuries ago, regarding the priest.
MAss does NOT depend on the personal holiness of the celebrant.If he is validly ordained, he may be the most hell-bound scoundrel, and Mass is still Mass.
And what is it like for a massgoer who knows of his unrepentant sinning?
Difficult, sooner or later scandalous.Etc.
Talk abt novus ordo as a rite, as a way of celebrating mass, not as mass. This is not a please, this is a must 4 yr own good, whoever you may be.
Find out abt spiritualities, while you're at it.
Equally, you're in the same boat as the tabletistas, trendies, and their ilk , only agin in yr case: VII, + VII docs, + "Spirit of VII, + any nutty heretical inmoral or havycavy paganism in the church, is all one same thing ! - I agree it's a mess, I'd agree that were the trendies ( does this include any/many anglosphere bishops?) correct then root and branch it'd have to go. It's Sooooooo tempting to feel that we might have bishops now with more backbone - but vat2less bishops caved barring fisher.
Young people's spirituality at any epoch may be debatable. But God send whatever bring them into the church, there at mass, God send it aint externals keep m there.
It's oooooover!
ReplyDeleteJust another symptom.
ReplyDeleteWe should save our righteous indignation for the disease: the program, under papal patronage from at least 1963 to the present day, of making God's work outside the Trinity, for all practical purposes, at any rate, the perfection of man in precisely this mortal life.
And after this mortal life? If you can find an answer in the conciliar magisterium, please let me know. I haven't had much success on my own.
"I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith."
ReplyDeleteIt did allow pervert priests to get closer to their victims.
"I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith."
ReplyDeleteYou might not understand it. But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith, and closer to God.
"It did allow pervert priests to get closer to their victims."
Wow. Humour! You have something you don't like, so you use it as a scapegoat for every other ill that is besetting the Church.
Very classy and intelligent.
speaking of 1969, where can I find reviews of the "Cursio Movement"? I can remember going to a retreat with my parents in '73 when I was 15 and we had to turn to the person next to us and hug them and call this "love". I thought it very effeminent, as a budding male adolecsent, and it turned me off.
ReplyDeleteAs far as '69 goes. I just listened to some Canned Heat on Youtube and I thought it was excellent.
"Cursillo" (little course), not "Cursio."
ReplyDeleteWith the exception of the American black civil rights movement, the 1960's were in all other ways a world wide tragedy. It is too bad that fraudulent movements, i.e. the women's movement, the "gay" liberation movement, etc. were successful in piggybacking themselves to the legitimate black civil rights movement.
ReplyDeleteIt is also unfortunate that Pope Paul VI went along with the 60's mentality thinking that it would be beneficial to the Church.
But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith..."
ReplyDeleteIt does beg the question - which faith? and what do we mean by "so many people"? Are they Roman Catholics for the most part?
According to surveys, even those effected by the church, Sunday attendance is in dramatic decline. Also, the NO presbyterate is in dramatic decline. Churches have closed by the thousands, literally. Religious orders and the missions are in decay. Therefore,your claims ring hollow in the face of the objective evidence.
We have to be honest that the NO service is a total disaster in every respect.
Dom God always seems to bring good even in not so good circumstances.
ReplyDeleteMy earlier comment on how can this kind of Mass bring people close to the faith, what I truly meant is that sometimes this YOUTH MASS or Masses for the Young seem to bring a kind of mass hysteria with all the hugging and crying that goes on in them I should know I used to belong to a Youth Group similar to the one in the second picture.
What I am saying is that the hugging and the sometimes the kissing and peace and love and even some crying doesn't mean that the Young have acquire a DEEP SPIRITUAL FAITH or true conversion.
This is not to say that All these Masses for the youth, or the young are like that, but more often than not the lack of the Sacredness and the lack of reverence shown in HOLY MASS by the celebrants and the young faithful don't necessarily bring up young Catholics who are solid in their Catholic faith.
I hope I clarified my earlier comment.
"I just don't understand how this kind of mass can bring young people close to God and bring them close to the faith."
ReplyDeleteYou might not understand it. But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith, and closer to God.
"It did allow pervert priests to get closer to their victims."
Wow. Humour! You have something you don't like, so you use it as a scapegoat for every other ill that is besetting the Church.
Very classy and intelligent."
1). Comment regarding the first paragraph------ I doubt it very much.
2). Comment regarding second paragraph----the Novus Ordo isn't really a scapegoat for all the ills of the Church---rather it was the spark that ignited all the other abuses. Mass attendance would not have plummeted, vocations to the priesthood and religious life for men and women would not have collapsed, bizarre and blasphemous liturgies would not have been created, the circus of WYD would never have happened, our Catholic traditions and devotions would never have been trashed, and we would NOT as Catholics practically be the same as most Protestant groups today, had the Novus Ordo not appeared on the scene in 1969.
If the Novus Ordo and tjose behind it (including the last two Popes) were innocent of the disasters in the Church today...then one commentator's comment could be sarcastically be labeled "very classy and intelligent" to degrade the Novus Ordo.
Fact is, the Novus Ordo was/is the cause of all the other ailments in the Church. The "hip" movement that gave birth to the novus Ordo in the Church is today like a spreading virus, an infection left untreated for 40 years that finally needs a strong antibiotic to bring it down.
That's where the Tridentine Latin Mass comes into play. It's the antiobiotic for the Church.
"But Novus Ordo Masses celebrated with dignity and love have brought so many people into the Faith..."
ReplyDeleteIt does beg the question - which faith? and what do we mean by "so many people"? Are they Roman Catholics for the most part?"
Leong:
A large number of the people who go to the TLM today, including the majority of the young and devout seminarians who fill the seminaries of the FSSP, ICRSS, and other similar societies, were brought up with the Novus Ordo.
It is bigots like you who do not know how to look and how to see. Better that the liturgical reform never happened, but God does exist, His grace still works, and he has managed to bring innumerable young men to the Catholic faith in all its purity and integrity even inside what you disparagingly call "the Conciliar Church" and outside of the SSPX, although I think you'd deny that as well.
"Fact is, the Novus Ordo was/is the cause of all the other ailments in the Church."
ReplyDeleteIf you think that prior to 1969 everything was perfect, and that all of a sudden things collapsed on November 30, 1969, then you really need to start reading. The worm of modernism and its intellectual and spiritual progenitors had been gnawing at the structure of the Church for more than a century prior to 1969. If the Church was as strong and as healthy as you think it was, the liturgical and theological devastation of the past 40 years would never even have begun.