Rorate Caeli

Italian Rabbinical Assembly: suspension of dialogue

From the Italian daily Corriere della Sera:

Italian Rabbinical Assembly: "Pause for reflection in the dialogue" with Catholics

The opinion on the change of the Good Friday prayer: "An abandonment of the very conditions for dialogue"

ROME - And now, a rupture. The Italian Rabbinical Asseembly considers necessary a "pause for reflection in the dialogue" with Catholics after the modification of the Good Friday prayer for the Jews.

And it underlines that the modification decided by Pope Ratzinger is "an abandonment of the very conditions for dialogue". The Assembly states so in a note signed by its president, Rabbi Giuseppe Laras.

60 comments:

Anonymous said...

I actually think this is good news - I think the eccumenical dialogues the Church has been having with other religious groups has caused them to not believe that they must convert - the Church is not here to negotiate with other religions - they must come and accept the teachings of the Church in full.

Anonymous said...

Yes, the ultimate end of dialogue with non-Catholic religions - even if they contain 'elements of the truth' which properly come from the Church herself - must be the acceptance by them of the Catholic Faith. But it is very sad that the dialogue in the report is temporarily halted. Jaw-Jaw is better than war-war. I pray for the Pope at this time. AG

Christian said...

It is such rubbish this whole 'elements of truth' thing. Satanism has elements of truth - eg. God exists and Christianity is His revelation'. This Rabbi seems to be saying that the pre-condition for dialogue is that we should not try to convert them, ie. that we all ignore the precepts of Christ and, consequently, become heretics. I rather tall order, what?

Anonymous said...

This is tremendous news!!! God bless with good health any many more years Pope Benedict XVI!!!
Maybe the days of Vatican II ecumenism with Protestants, and appologizing, appeasment, dialog and capitulation to the opinions of the Jews is over too!!!
NOt to be rude, but how dare these Jewish leaders and others demand a change in Catholic prayers, and then condemn the revisions once made.
Must we change our entire tradition and liturgy to appease Jews, Protestants etc?
Oooops, we already did at Vatican II with the Novus Ordo. That was a mistake!! Which I think is being realized in the Vatican also.

These Jewish leaders in Italy (and also the ADL leaders, Abraham Foxman etc., have no business dictating to the Catholic Church, or making demands.
Also they have no business demanding that the Catholic Church suspend the canonization process for Pope Pius XII. Benedict XVI is ignoring the Jews on this too, He declared Pius XII as "Venerable Pope Pius XII", the first step to beatification/canonization.

The Jewish representatives should understand that the Catholic Church, and the Vatican don't "owe" them anything. The Vatican began dialog with Jews as a courtesy. One which can easilly be recinded.

Anonymous said...

There's nothing sad about the dialog being halted.
It should never have been initiated in the first place.
The Vatican and the Catholic Church tried to dialog with Protestants and Jews and other non-Christians in good faith.
The Protestants, Jews, and others wanted dialog too, but only on their terms.
That is why is is good that all the might be ending.

a.d. said...

This whole business has shown that the Catholic notion of "dialogue" and the notion of "dialogue" that the Church's dialogue partners hold are poles apart. Clearly a "moment of reflection" is indeed needed for people of other religions to realise that "dialogue" doesn't mean abandoning our faith so as not to offend others, it means an honest discussion of our faith so that understanding and charity can grow.

Anonymous said...

This is what I feared. Give an inch they take a mile. The phrase from St Paul refering to a veil over their hearts (and a reference to the veil over Moses face) was not the problem. They do not want us to pray for their conversion, or hope and work for it.
When a prayer is from antiquity it is less offensive than one newly changed.
Let us be honest we are all on a guilt trip concerning the treatment of Jews by Nazi's and Soviets. So we fail to set appropriate boundaries. What happened to Jews and other groups and Catholic was a sin.
We Catholics are in a sense Jews and all our founders and Savious are Jewish. So God bless them may God remove the unbelieving veil from their hearts to acknowlege our very Jewish Lord Jesus as the Messiah.

Anonymous said...

Why do we care what the Jews think about OUR prayers?

I do not like seeing men with curls in their hair, it really "offends" me! (Tongue and Cheek).

I think that they should all shave their collective heads in the spirit of being good friends.

Do you think that they would shave their heads?

In addition I feel that this is persicution of the traditionalists.

What percentage of Jews, protestants, pagans, and others attend the Extraordinary Rite of the Mass? . 00009% Maybe?

I pray that the Jews and liberals and other Christ haters, have the veil of biggotry removed from their eyes.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

This is great news! It's about time someone cuts the dialogue cord.

Waiting now for the pope's response.

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Kasper speaks (German):
http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/ted/Articolo.asp?c=184997

Jordan Potter said...

Let us be honest we are all on a guilt trip concerning the treatment of Jews by Nazis and Soviets.

-- and Catholics. After all the Jews have been put through (and yes, I know they at times brought some of it on themselves), it's understandable we'd be walking on eggshells about our relations with them.

Cardinal Kasper speaks (German):

Unsurprisingly, given what we know of Cardinal Kasper's modernistical heresies, he endorses the "It's only a prayer that Jews be converted at the end of the world, not today" misinterpretation that has been championed by certain people of a traditionalist bent. But as usual, I'm happy to find myself in disagreement with Cardinal Kasper.

Anonymous said...

Note well...THEY are abandoning the dialogue.
The Catholic Church has always taught the necessity of Christ for salvation for all people If certain people, thinking they are better than others, chose - dare I say - to BLIND themselves to the truth of Catholic teaching in the recent past they can do so no longer because the Holy Father has chosen to shed LIGHT so that they might see.
We still want dialogue, but will not change one tittle of doctrine to placate men.
The ball is in their court.

Anonymous said...

Now that the Jews have abandoned dialogue, can we not abandone the new ecumenical prayer for their conversion established by HH B16?

Perhaps if we go back to the old prayer of 1948, Jews and Catholics can be united in a mutual concord! (sarcasm)

Don't rejoice over this move by the Rabbinican Assembly, folks.

In response you will see a commission established by the Pope can staffed with liberal theologians and rabbis, to rewrite the prayer once more, along with the breviary and the rest of holy week, which will become a certain sort of quasi Jewish-Commission in the Church to impose thought control on all of you!

Signed,

1 Very dissatisfied Curial Official

Anonymous said...

I hope the comment by the Curial official is some kind of a joke.

If Benedict XVI would respond by forming a commission to revise prayers in favor of Jews, or to revise our tradition to appease other religions, then He isn't deserving of the office of Pope.

There should be NO more response from the Vatican regarding the Jews and their whining. Let them complain all they like.

As for the Holocaust and Catholic guilt....the Catholic Church was the only organization that tried to help. And it was over 60 years ago.
Are the Jews going to throw "The Holocaust" or "Shoah" up at the rest of the world forever. Yes.

Boring!!!!!

Joe B said...

The larger objective of the change never was the conversion of the Jews. Nobody thought that was going to happen. It's to remake the TLM in the theological image of Ratzinger, whoever he is. Liberal kings have no humility.

A Ratzinger Mass - that's the objective, and it's going to get worse. At some point, even those who support the changes just because they are Papally approved are going to be faced with the Novus Ordo dilemma - when does the carnage have to be acknowledged and opposed?

Sooner or later we're going to have to get serious about opposing change that has nothing to do with fighting heresies. No more tinkering with holy things.

Anonymous said...

Yes, it is supposed to be a bit of roman sacrasm!

I am not

1 Very Dissatisfied Curial Official

but I am Very Dissatisfied

Josephus Muris Saliensis said...

Dear oh dear, Joe B.

what do you want? If you are not satisfied with Papa Ratzinger, there is not pleasing you.

This prayer is not "tinkering", it replaces a modified prayer, which was subject to tinkering in 1960, and indeed it reasserts a catholically sound prayer over the platitudinous prayer introduced in 1966 (which can be taken to imply, however erroneously, that the old Covenant has not ended), and which is retained in the Novus Ordo. It would have been simple for Benedict to adopt this one, but he did not, as he wishes, with all good men, to pray for the conversion of all those outwith the Church.

Let us rejoice that the Church is again looking so eternally young and positive. Otherwise, why do we call ourselves Catholics?

An Exiled Priest said...

Ordinarily, this would be a wake-up call to the Pope, the Bishops, priests and laity that the world truly hates the Catholic Church. Jewish enmity toward us begins with Our Lord Himself. We should treat the world charitably -- but act like chivalrous warriors waging an eternal struggle against the forces of the one Our Lord called a murderer and a liar.

Unfortunately, many (most) of those who have been placed in control of the machinery of the Church's internal life (some appointed by Benedict himself), will view this as the equivalent of a "foreign policy" blunder by the Prime Minister (the Pope). They have abandoned any notion that the Church is the vessel of truth in the fallen world -- and must wage WAR against those who would destroy the vessel.

We wait for the next post-conciliar Pope to examine this Pope's "foreign policy" -- and then we'll see if he'll succumb to the world's demand that the Church and HIS administration be more broad-minded and ecumenical.

This is the great tragedy of the Church's Dark Night: Eternal Truth is in the hands of practical secularists who have little appreciation that expedient and politically-correct "policies" hinder and obfuscate that Truth -- and place the Divine mission of the Church in extreme peril.

GHPower said...

Maybe the "pause for reflection..." by Rabbi Giuseppe Laras is to reflect on deleting the anti-goyem Jewish prayers that are so offensive to Gentiles:

Baruch atah Hashem Elokenu melech haolam, shelo asani goy … [Blessed are You, Lord our God, King of the universe, who did not make me a Gentile.]

The prayer is from a Tana’itic source and it is in Rabbinic rather than Biblical Hebrew.

What is the context of this prayer for an observant Jewish man?

Siman 46:4: A person must say the Blessings shelo asani goy (Who did not make me a non-Jew), shelo asani aved (Who did not make me a slave), and shelo asani isha (Who did not make me a woman) every day.
[my source: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2008/01/jewish-prayer-about-gentiles-and-catholic-prayer-for-the-jews/]


Nah, I didn't think so.

Richard said...

Difference in beliefs represents need for dialogue. Abondoning dialogue when others affirm beliefs which aren't your own is an "abandonment of the very conditions for dialogue".

Richard said...

"But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates,
`We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.'" (Mt 11:16-17)

Richard said...

Then the disciples came and said to him, "Dou you know the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?" He answered , "...Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." (Mt 15:12, 13)

Anonymous said...

Who cares? Their forefathers didn't!

Anonymous said...

This is a moment of grace. We have seen documents like Dominus Iesus published. Now we see a concrete action based upon that theology in the composition of a new prayer for a current liturgy. The pope is practicing what he preaches. May this lead all Catholics to believe what the Church teaches and the pope is practicing.

If these Jews thought that the basis of ecumenism was total apathy about whether they except the Messiah that God sent to save them in order that they might have eternal life in the heavenly Sion, then there was something very wrong with the way dialogue was carried on. If documents didn't fix it, then let actions.

schoolman said...

Some have pointed to Kaspar's recent remarks for the "true interpretation" of the new prayer -- no conversion now but only at the end or time. Does this seem reasonable (not to mention how uncharitable toward those so unforunate to live in the now-times!)? Of course, Kaspar had tried to color the recent instructions from the CDF in a similar manner — he was not particularly happy with them either. So, rather than contradicting them he attempts to color them in a way that best preserves the "peace" and avoiding any “hurt” feelings. Kaspar claims that we do not now seek to convert (mission) the Jews…as we do the heathens. Well, I think he may be correct in the sense that we seek to convert the Jews in a manner best suited to convert the Jews!

Anonymous said...

Christ commanded us to love all and so if anyone hates our prayers, our religion, our Lord, and our Church, we still must love that person and be of good will toward them. And the greatest thing we can want for them is for them to be in heaven with God forever which is possible only through Jesus Christ.
Hopefully, it is because the Jews feel some bond of closeness to Catholics, because of our Lord's command to love them, that they feel they can act as they are, that is, seemingly so arrogantly and truculently. Hopefully, its not an attempt to manipulate Christians and our beliefs. But even if it were, we would, ignoring their please to destroy our religion, still love them and pray for them to know Christ.

Anonymous said...

This makes me very happy!!! There has to be perspective and circumspection. There has to be judgmental tolerance----if at all---not non-judgmental tolerance and it seems like that is what the Jews want. In any event, I am very happy and I hope this extends throughout the world, not for the sake of embitterment or contentiousness but for distinction and clarity.

Stanislas Wojtiech said...

As for those interested in the facts, I hereby provide the interpretation of the Vatican-based Walter Cardinal Kasper, who certainly knows Pope Benedict XVI personally, and interprets the "new prayer" - unlike the traditional 1,600 year old previous - in the TLM to pray not for the immediate conversion of Jews, or for missionizing of Jews (impossible for Kasper), but says that the "new prayer" puts the conversion of the Jews and their obligation to convert in the eschatological future, when the fullness of the Gentiles has entered the Church. Only after that can Christians "hope Jews accept Christ".....

But only in the end. Supposedly Jews are now still fine and for Kasper the Old Law is still valid, and the Catholic Church was wrong for 1,965 years that the Messiah came for the people of Israel and that nobody comes to the Father except through Christ.

Source: Radio Vatican. Cardinal Kasper. "No change, no missionizing of Jews."

Cardinal Kasper is German, influenced by the same Modernist philosophy and theology Joseph Ratzinger was exposed to and adhered to (adheres to still), Kasper also thinks Hegelian. Kasper knows Benedict XVI and says the new prayer does not call for a Mission to the Jews, and that the conversion of Jews is only "hoped for" in this way, as the eschatological End Times, when already the fullness of Gentiles have entered. Only after that.

Before there remains - in his un-Catholic view - some "special way" for Jews to heaven, outside of Christ, outside of the Church, and they do not have to convert. They probably have some special blood or we did not read the Gospel correctly, I think.

Is there no "Who hath not the Son, hath not the Father either" passage somewhere there? Or am I a reactionary Papist Lefebvrist Roman Catholic fascist antisemite from the 1880s because I memorize the Gospel?

Gilbert said...

Benedic XVI and Pius IX

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/21632.php?index=21632&po_date=06.02.2008&lang=it

Gentile said...

Bring back the pre-1955 prayer. Fifty years of trying to please those who will never be pleased is time enough.

"Let us pray also for the faithless Jews: that Almighty God may remove the veil from their hearts; so that they too may acknowledge Jesus Christ our Lord.

"Almighty and eternal God, who dost not exclude from thy mercy even Jewish faithlessness: hear our prayers, which we offer for the blindness of that people; that acknowledging the light of thy Truth, which is Christ, they may be delivered from their darkness. Through the same Lord Jesus Christ, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God, for ever and ever. Amen."

Congregants do not kneel during the prayer for the conversion of the Jews, because the Church does not wish to imitate the Jews who mocked Christ before his crucifixion by kneeling before him and reviling him.

And while we're at it, restore the striken pharase from the Act of Consecration to the Sacred Heart:

"Turn Thine eyes of mercy towards the children of that race, once Thy chosen people: of old they called down the blood of the Savior; may It now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life."

I have no hate, no malice, only love for my neighbor and the hope of his eternal salvation. Too bad it's not a two way street!

Anonymous said...

This is such sad, sad news about the Jews suspending dialogue, whatever will the Pope and the Vatican do? Poor rabbis. They're so offended.
And the Vatican and the Pope must feel so bad about it. If you stop beneath the Apostolic Palace, I'm sure you can hear all the "Boo Hoo's" coming from all the offices....or is it the sound of laughter and a party? Maybe they're all singing "Happy Days are Here Again!! The Sky above is Clear Again.....!!" with Pope Benedict XVI at the piano. :)

Anonymous said...

What does the Catholic Chruch really believe? The Novus Ordo version, the 2008 Benedict XVI version, the 1962 John XXXIII version, the 1955 Pius XII version or the pre-1955 version.

Anonymous said...

I wonder if the optional shorter intercession from the Novus Ordo breviary for every Friday could also be misinterpreted to mean only the end times: "Ad foedus novum voca Iudeos."

Anonymous said...

"What does the Catholic Chruch really believe? The Novus Ordo version, the 2008 Benedict XVI version, the 1962 John XXXIII version, the 1955 Pius XII version or the pre-1955 version."

Great questions. The Catholic Church believes whatever the currently reigning pope says it believes: whatever he says the current formulation means also is the meaning of all the previous formulations. That's how we can have continuity in contradiction. Welcome to Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

Anonymous said...

Rabbi Josepi, many regrets.
So sorry.
This is for your good in the long-run.

By the way, you never said THANK YOU for His Holiness Pope Pius XII and so many Priests and Nuns who risked their lives to save so many Jews by hiding your brethrens away in Monastaries, Convents and Seminaries. When the Nazis came looking they risked their lives and lied to the Nazis.

How about, "Thank you very much for risking your lives for us"?

schoolman said...

"Before there remains - in his un-Catholic view - some "special way" for Jews to heaven, outside of Christ, outside of the Church, and they do not have to convert. They probably have some special blood or we did not read the Gospel correctly, I think."
=========================

No, Kaspar does not imply some other "special way" in the least. At most, he simply says that they will finally be converted in the end-days -- yet, before such time -- and given their generally "un-enlightened" status -- no human efforts towards Jewish conversion will bear fruit. Even so, that does not mean that we can pray to God to enlighten them to the truth...even if God will not remove the general veil until the end.

Adam Barnette said...

"Let us rejoice that the Church is again looking so eternally young and positive. Otherwise, why do we call ourselves Catholics?"

Never was it known until Vatican II that the Holy Catholic Church proves her eternal youth through changing her ancient prayers in order to soften the language that comes from Sacred Scripture, itself, and was always nourished in the ancient Church.

To be a Catholic demands that we cherish our heritage and to see in it a continuation of the Sacred Tradition of the Church. I'm reminded of St. Basil, who in his sermons on the Holy Spirit, not only defended the Faith of the Apostles, but even the form of the liturgical rites of the Church. Clearly, he saw no sign of youth in innovating (as opposed to organic growth) on these practices. Rather, he condemned such innovation. So should we if we claim to belong to the same Church as he.

Athanasius said...

This is precisely what I predicted would happen in my own musings. Now, watch for a Vatican back track sometimes in the coming months. As soon as their idol of ecumenism starts falling apart, its anyone's bet as to how much authentic Catholic teaching they will muddy up, affirm, partially deny or obfuscate in order to keep those Jews in dialogue.

Jordan Potter said...

Kasper knows Benedict XVI and says the new prayer does not call for a Mission to the Jews, and that the conversion of Jews is only "hoped for" in this way, as the eschatological End Times, when already the fullness of Gentiles have entered. Only after that.

Kasper, as usual, is wrong. The prayer doesn't just ask for an eventual conversion of the Jews, but asks for it now and at the End, praying that all Gentiles might become Catholic and all Israelites might become Catholic. To tell the truth, I am troubled on those occasions when I find myself in agreement with him. By God's grace this is not one of them. Kasper may not believe in a Mission to the Jews, but Jesus didn't give him the right to exclude the Jews from the benefit of hearing the Gospel. Pray for him.

schoolman said...

There is an important point regarding the eschatological aspect of the new prayer. Anyone familiar with Cardinal Ratzinger's writings knows that "eschatology" does not deal exclusively with some future reality or event -- it already IS a reality in the NOW -- yet still lacking the fulness of development. The same can be said for the virtue of "Hope" (Spe Salvi). The Holy Father teaches that Hope does not refer exclusively to some future reality or state -- it already is. Therefore, the idea that the eschatological context of the new prayer refers exclusively to some future and distant hope for the Jewish conversion is really nonsense. The future is really in the NOW.

Ad Orientem said...

Congratulations! Now If we could just get all the professional feel good ecumenists to stop talking to us Orthodox.

Anonymous said...

I guess we used to make Jews live in special parts of the city. In Rome they used to have to sit through a sermon given by a Dominican exhorting them to convert. There was a culutural bias against them . They were the only group because they were not Christians allowed to charge interest on loans. They were expelled from various countries. They were a minority and did not assimilate. They were persecuted.
But that has all past and we know as Catholics in the past knew no one can be FORCED to convert.
Hitler and Stalin built upon a cultural dislike for Jews and exploited it for their own "scientific" and very modern philosophical ends. They murdered Jews and Christians and many others for racial and anti religious reasons.
So the wound is tender and has not healed.
We are all very sensitive.
This means we over indulge each other. The Pope is German so as I have noticed,and as many Germans do, he probably feels the pain deeply.
The bottom line is that it is 'tradional' to have a bias against Jews.
Is it helpful? If I were a Jew I might think you all HATED me.
Yes Kasper is a provaricator. Yes the Pope has changed the prayer.
"Do not let your anger lead you into sin..your enemy the devil roams around looking for someone to devour, Stand up to him strong in Faith" Some of you are letting the devil devour you!
Lets pray for them and love them into the Church. You hatred might keep them in the synagogue of satan! hahahaah
Oh Lord I sin, I steal, I lie, I fornicate, I slander, I hate......But at least I am not a Jew!!!!!!!!
You are behaving like losers!

Anonymous said...

To the last anonymous person,

that comment started in a coherent and meaningful way, but your poor attempt at sarcasm really spoiled it in the end.

Anonymous said...

More than 3.5 million Catholics were systematically murdered in the concentration camps in Poland during the second world war. Like our brothers the Jews, at no time in history have Catholics not also known extreme persecution.

Therefore, no Jew may ever use the atrocities committed against them during the second world war, or at any other time, to intimidate us or to ask that our prayers for them be rescinded. During WWII, Catholics suffered horribly. The Catholic Church was *not* part of the problem. We *know* what it means to suffer.


James

Anonymous said...

I think Hitler was raised a Catholic.He actually was taught by the Benedictines near Linz. He repudiated his religion. Yes more people than 6 Million Jews were killed. Hilter killed Catholics for being Catholics and gypsies for being gypsies, and slavs for being a slave race on and on. Some Catholics did as their faith bid and helped and sheltered potential victims of the Nazis. Others did not... The Croation College in Rome was a hotbed of Nazi sympathies. Some high ranking churchman were spies for The Nazis.
The question is to what extent did Catholic prewar attitudes to Jews contribute to the deaths of Jews? Why did so many Catholic swallow all the anti Jewish Guff?
No doubt this is cultural, but did the attitudes expressed in the liturgy contribute? Did St Paul's fight with fellow Jews and Hebrew Christians get blown out of proportion and taken out of context historically becominf culturally destructive?
The Nazis had a stupid theory that Jesus was not a semite but Aryan and other ideas that Christianity was a Jewish hoax.
So when I say God I pray for that idiot who is stupid and blah blah ****Jew! May they become a Catholic? I am doing more than pray. I am sending very clear messages about their status.
Covert the Jews yes. Pray for them..but with love not sneering condescension!
Perhaps that is why the prayers were changed! To pray with respect not gloat with religious superiority>?

Anonymous said...

anonymous of 0814 & 0824: I pray for you (through gritted teeth, but I do it).

But unless I notice that your comments have been deleted from this blog, I will not be posting comments to it again.

Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ said...

Wow..this is a popular blog...49 comments..mine makes 50!

Anonymous said...

I think the Vatican should cancel out all dialog with both Jews and Protestants.

Unfortunatly, JP II meant well, but he caused alot of trouble with his bending-over backwards to appease the Jews.
What's the old saying "Give an ince, and they'll want a mile" or something like that.

I (and I am sure millions of Catholcis say about the Jews....."Take a hike Rabbis...Mind you own Business"

Anonymous said...

Oh Boo Hoo Hoo for the concerns and objections of the Jews. : (

Oy vey, they're so wounded by all this....such a shander! Oy !!

Anonymous said...

schoolman is a theological wanabee. He's dangerous because he knows the jargon but is woefully deficient in traditional Catholic theology (probably inhabited a post-conciliar seminary for awhile). His comment, " Anyone familiar with Cardinal Ratzinger's writings knows that "eschatology" does not deal exclusively with some future reality or event -- it already IS a reality in the NOW -- yet still lacking the fulness of development," is a perfect example. I learned it in the seminary in the mid-70s as "the already but not yet" rot. It means absolutely nothing -- just as schoolman's constant efforts to parse the woefully deficient clarity of Vatican documents mean absolutely nothing.

alsaticus said...

a simple remark :
what is the qualification of the assembly of Italian rabbis to speak for all Jewish rabbis and all Jewish associations ?
answer : none.

The Holy See is left with many other more Jewish representative instances to pursue a "dialogue", for what it is worth.
We should be more careful not to fall so easily into the usual liberal traps !

Ultimately, we also should keep in mind this is, in fact, an inner debate among Catholics. The theologians who are supporting the judeo-christianism thesis, like late cardinal Lustiger and now cardinal Kasper - among some others -, and those who are more faithful to Church Fathers, Tradition, the Creed and "Dominus Iesus" declaration.
We can also see the ominous shadow of the lethal "theology of religions", the modern indifferentist and syncretist mindset operating once again.

So far, pope Benedict XVI has not truly confronted this theological monster, only marginally. It is a cancer spreading in the bosom of the Church with several committees, and alas widely present in the Catholic academic institutions. Teaching and enforcing "Dominus Iesus" for real should be a priority.
The new General of the Jesuits is directly connected to this doctrinal cancer so we can see how far it has crept within the Church.

Anonymous said...

I think we need to consider that the pope fully and consciously intended to create this crisis with traditionalists and Jews.

On the one hand, it is a test to see if traditionalists will respond obediently to even the most minimal liturgical change. How can we say that Jews and Abe Foxman imposed this change, when they are barking and whining like rabid dogs. It makes absolutely no sense to say that the Pope is catering to the ADL and like organizations.

On the other hand, it is a correction to the sort of "dialogue" that demands a priori that Catholics compromise their convictions and identity.

Finally, by releasing this change at the same time that major events are taking place in the American Presidential Selection process, the pope is ensuring minimal major media coverage.

I think he did it on purpose, folks, and I am hereby changing my position from skeptical criticism to full support of the Holy Father.

JAT

Anonymous said...

Dear Jat,

We cannot speculate upon the motives of the Holy Father, as that would be uncharitable.

But I do think that the prayer is a direct result of his avowed and expressed sympathesies for the hegelian dialectic; he is trying to adapt Nostra Aetate to the TLM and to relations with the Jews, all at once.

The problem is that Nostra Aetate contains errors, and thus all that he does will be awry in some manner.

It is the very nature of us as Catholics to give the Holy Father benefit of doubt, and those of us who have no formal training in theology or philosophy, and/or who have never read some of the writings of the current pope, when he was not pope, can easily come to accept this new prayer, because it is seemingly Catholic.

But it is not catholic.

I set for the reasons at lenght at
www.franciscan-archive.org/whatsnew.html

There are just some things the Pope cannot do. IN those we are not oblidged to follow his lead.

Even St. Pius V supressed the Feast of the Presentation of Our Lady in the Temple, an error corrected by his sucessors.

The Popes therefore in matters liturgical are not infallible or impeccalbe; and if we follow themin all liturgical enactments, knowing that certain ones are contrary to Faith or Scripture or Tradition, or the ecclesaistical rule of faith, they will will sin, even if he in his ignorance is not reckoned a sinner by Our Lord.

A good Catholic criticized the pope in his mistakes.

Even St. Alphonus dei Liguori, the Doctor of the Church in questions of morality, declared, "Who can be ignorant that the Pope can become obnoxious by his errors?".

Br. Alexis Bugnolo

Jordan Potter said...

Some anonymous person said: His comment, "Anyone familiar with Cardinal Ratzinger's writings knows that "eschatology" does not deal exclusively with some future reality or event -- it already IS a reality in the NOW -- yet still lacking the fulness of development," is a perfect example. I learned it in the seminary in the mid-70s as "the already but not yet" rot. It means absolutely nothing . . .

In that case, I guess you believe that the Catholic Church is not the Kingdom of God. Your dismissive opinions on eschatology are irreconcilable with the Catholic faith.

Anonymous said...

Dear Br. Bugnolo,

There is no connection between NA and the new prayer, which explicitly petitions God for the conversion of Jews to Christianity. The substance of the prayer is unchanged and that is precisely why Jews are objecting so vociferously. The change is purely cosmetic.

I note a contradiction between the first and second sentence of your reply to me. Speculating on a person's motivation is ONLY uncharitable to the extent that your speculation is uncharitable. My speculation about the Holy Father's motivation was charitable, yours (Hegel, Nostra Aetate, etc) was uncharitable. Charity is a question of whether we prefer to think better of someone or worse. In this instance, however, it has little to do with what I want to think. Rather I gave evidentiary reasons for believing that the pope caused this crisis on purpose.

I have no problem with your opinion of St. Pius V or with your general assertion about criticizing popes. I criticize papal actions all the time.

On this one, however, I think criticism is unwarranted. I think the pope is testing whether all traditionalists are "closet sedevacantists." In other words, will we respond obediently to even the smallest expressions of papal prerogative.

Unless we have all seriously overestimated the pope's intelligence, he intended to cause this crisis in order to (1) challenge traditionalists and (2) reform ecumenism. It is really this simple: He either was incredibly stupid in thinking that traditionalists and Jews would both be satisfied by this change or he intended to cause this crisis. Given the nature and timing, I believe the second proposition is FAR, FAR more likely.

JAT

Anonymous said...

The Holy God hears our prayers! The Angel at Fatima taught the children and the rest of us as to what is needed. Sister Lucia all her long life, until she was silenced, kept repeating: NO ONE IS PAYING ATTENTION, neither the good nor the bad.
This Pope, thank Heavens, is listening. He showed once again with the extraordinary rite of prayer for the Jews, just promulgated. But let us turn to what the Angel of Peace taught the children:
From Sister Lucia's diary:
'KNEELING ON THE GROUND, HE BOWED DOWN UNTIL HIS FOREHEAD REACHED THE GROUND. LED BY A SUPERNATURAL IMPULSE, WE DID THE SAME, AND REPEATED THE WORDS WHICH WE HEARD HIM SAY:'
"MY GOD, I BELIEVE, I ADORE, I HOPE AND I LOVE YOU! I ASK PARDON OF YOU FOR THOSE, WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, DO NOT ADORE, DO NOT HOPE AND DO NOT LOVE YOU."
HE REPEATED THIS THREE TIMES IN HONOR OF THE MOST HOLY TRINITY.
...in the final apparition the Angel adored Christ in the most holy and Blessed Sacrament suspended in the air and bowing to the ground he made this act of worship and we learned it by repeating after him how he adored:
"MOST HOLY TRINITY, FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT, I OFFER YOU THE MOST PRECIOUS BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST, PRESENT IN ALL THE TABERNACLES OF THE WORLD, IN REPARATION FOR THE SACRILEGES, OUTRAGES AND INDIFFERENCE BY WHICH HE HIMSELF IS OFFENDED, AND THROUGH THE INFINITE MERITS OF HIS MOST SACRED HEAERT, AND THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY, I BEG OF YOU THE CONVERSION OF POOR SINNERS."
... From the response by some Jews to the Holy Father's approved prayer for the Jews indicates that
they understand it correctly, they as anyone else desiring to be saved must be converted to Christ and acknowledge his Lordship and oneness of the divinity in the Most Holy Trinity as the Roman Catholic Church always taugth and continues to uphold. God desires the unity of man in Jesus Christ as Lord and King, the reflection and image of the Most Holy One.
"I have come to save the lost house of Israel first..." This Pope is listening to Our Lady and the Angel of Peace. Let us pray for the Holy Father as he needs to strengthen all true believers. Pray, pray, pray... The Angel shouted in the last vision:
Penance! Penance! Penance!
By prayer and penance we are called to fill in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who alone can save mankind, Christ crucified and Risen! Praise God! Laudetur Jesus Christus!

Anonymous said...

Remember Our Lady was Jewish!
Your real fight is with certain pharisees, and decendants of sadducees. These do not accept Jesus. As we beleive Faith is a supernatural gift. All we can do is pray for them and inspire by example. What example do some of these comments provide? Certainly nothing very Christian. "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do!"
If Our Lord can forgive them for being sinners (and there are a few sins on this blog) then why can't you!
Does it make us feel good to get all huffy and puffy over these things? Does it show we would never do anything as bad as those nasty Jews. The truth is our Lord is very Jewish and had he not been crucified we would not be offered salvation. Oh happy fault!
For you Americans..sin is the most democratic of all things.
No more pious indignation! No more tearing of robes. "Oh Lord I am not as other men."
Stop it!!!!!!
Look at the face of Christ now in your minds and pray ask HIM what you should think do and say over this! His answer is NOT anything like some of the posts I have read here!!!!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Potter, you remarked, "In that case, I guess you believe that the Catholic Church is not the Kingdom of God. Your dismissive opinions on eschatology are irreconcilable with the Catholic faith."

Your first sentence is known as a non-sequitur. Nothing in my response was dismissive of authentic notions of Catholic eschatalogy.

I realize now that I hit a nerve with you because of your agreement with schoolman. I'm sorry if I offended you, but nonetheless, the very fact that no one has a conclusive answer as to what either he or Benedict means by the prayer, confirms my observation concerning the lack of clarity in regard to this most important issue.

Caritas said...

To posters who claim to be Catholics and are acting as Pharisees...

Hypocrites, our goal is the conversion of all sinners. Repent at once:

On Tuesday Feb-05 you complained because the Holy Father changed the "untouchable" already altered prayer for the conversion of our jewish brothers. How could the Vicar of Christ remove two veils with the same prayer?

On Thursday Feb-07 you rejoiced because the Italian Rabbinical Assembly suspended dialogue. A dialogue you would never have started had it been for a prayer?

So what will you do on Friday Mar-07?

Hang to each word Benedict XVI uses, as self-proclaimed guardians of the prayer, making sure he does not give an inch in case "they" asked for a mile.

Or, sincerely pray with the Holy Father, inspired by the Holy Ghost, for the conversion of jews and all sinners (including me) as will millions of Catholics (including me) no matter what and how he says it.

Providence never fails!

Caritas

Anonymous said...

I learned it in the seminary in the mid-70s as "the already but not yet" rot. It means absolutely nothing

Perhaps you should have been reading a bit more scripture in the seminary. 2 Corinthians 6 would have been a good place to start. A little patristic theology wouldn't have hurt either. The parousia refers inseparably to the moment of repentance, the sacraments (especially the Eucharist), the hour of death, moments of historical crisis, and the definitive parousia at the end of time. You must understand that because "Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever" (I think that might be in the bible somewheres), wherever Christ is, time is mystically broken down and transcended. The day of salvation is the day Christ appears, however, wherever and whenever he appears.

What is it about you guys who were in seminary during the seventies that has left you jaded for an entire lifetime?

JAT

PS. Mr. Potter is among the very best of my living teachers. You'd do well to read his comments carefully before criticizing.