Rorate Caeli

No "Reform of the Reform" in sight

The Italian daily La Stampa suggested today that there could be a vast Vatican plan to reform some practices in the new Mass (according to the Missal of Paul VI). It seems, however, that no new norms and regulations for the Missal of Paul VI are foreseen, as Vatican Radio reports:

Abp. Ranjith denies an article of the daily La Stampa: there will be no new pronouncements on the matter of the celebration of the Mass

The secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Abp. Malcolm Ranjith, has denied today what is contained in an article published with today's date on the daily La Stampa.

The article mentions a supposed "turning point in the Vatican against - it is written - the 'extravagances' in Mass and to review some recent practices such as communion in the hand."

Abp. Ranjith notices that there is in the article a collage of sentences pronounced by him in different contexts which have given rise to out-of-place construction.

[Ranjith] Clarifies thus that, in the matter of the celebration of Holy Mass, with respect both to the priest and to the faithful, the binding discipline contained in the liturgical books is clear.

Therefore - Abp. Ranjith affirms -, no ulterior pronouncements regarding the matter are foreseen. The expectation - he concludes - is that the existing norms and indications shall be regularly applied and that the Eucharist be celebrated with devotion, seriousness, and nobility.

RORATE Editorial Note: It seems that all the advocates of the "Reform of the Reform" will have to get used to the idea that the great measure of authentic reform is the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum - and that the Missal of Saint Pius V is their only hope.

_______________
Tip: Papa Ratzinger Blog.

61 comments:

Anonymous said...

First, the new form of Mass must be celebrated more traditionally. Then we can talk about making reforms to it, eventually combining the two forms.

Anonymous said...

Reforms? Priests just need to follow the rubrics for the NO. Then it will immediately be on track for improvement. The Holy Father is right not to call for new things on this front.

Anonymous said...

It would seem to me that this means that the only reform going on now is the reform of the 1962 Missal. The SSPX are looking more attractive by the day!

Anonymous said...

I knew all along that there would be no "Reform of the Reform".
The low-life liturgists and other neo-Protestants in the Vatican would never permit it.
This Pope, while well intentioned, is very wimpish about ruling, governing, guiding, directing, with concrete directives, rules, pronouncements, guidelines, changes etc.
Everyone in the Vatican is more interested in preserving the legacy of Vatican II....and of John Paul II, than in rescuing the Church from collapse. And that is sick.

The only salvation for the Catholic Church is the Tridentine Latin Mass. And perhaps the SSPX.

Anonymous said...

God Bless Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX !!!!

Jacob said...

Reform of the Reform seems to me to be 'organic' reform.

If people expect Benedict and his lieutenants to promulgate top-down directives in the same manner as Paul and his lieutenants back in the late 60s culminating in the 70 missal, they're either misunderstanding or deluding themselves.

The new arrangement of the altar, facing east, the new translation coming out, an emphasis on solemnity as opposed to innovation and inculturation... What more do people want?

Just come out and say it if that's what you want: the abolition of the NO.

schoolman said...

I think New Catholic is spot on. The EF really seems intended to be the tip of spear for liturgical reform. Once the average Catholic becomes familiar with the "older" practices then it can be gradually and organically introduced into the OF. That seems to be the preferred approach of the Holy Father -- to let it happen naturally by promoting the EF rather than mandating sudden changes to the OF. It's a prudential decision based on his practical experience.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

We don't need a "reform of the reform." What we DO need is the complete abolition of the reform (Novus Ordo Missae) and a full restoration to the Tridentine Mass.

It seems more and more each day that Archbishop Lefebvre was right about the liturgical changes. God bless his soul.

Anonymous said...

There are all kinds of possibilities. We could have a unified 1962/1965 Missal, with the '65 Ordinary as an option. We could impose 1962 rubrics on the Novus Ordo. We could leave the Novus Ordo, but rescind all post-1970 permissions.

Now, I consider myself a traditionalist, I have membership in a FSSP particular parish, but I will attend a reverently celebrated Novus Ordo on weekdays. Given that, I still have to agree with Brother Anthony. The best way out of this mess is to abrogate the Novus Ordo completely and utterly - tomorrow. Call it well-intentioned, but anathema sit.

Were I pope, which I'm not, I might make allowance for the TLM in the vernacular, to soften the shock, but that would be all. Restore the pre-Bugnini Mass fully and completely. That's it. The Novus Ordo cannot be fixed. It must go. The reform of the reform is a pipe-dream.

~ Belloc

Anonymous said...

Yes, abrogate the NO! No, wait, even better - sell it to the protestants.

No, on second thought, they're not that stupid.

Anonymous said...

If faithful Catholics want the "sense of the sacred" embodied within a satisfying spiritual liturgy they should look to the traditional Latin Mass (aka Extraordinary form of the Roman rite) and not wait for reforms in the the Novus Ordo, Mass of Pope Paul VI. The old adage, you can't make a silk purse out of a pig's ear, is very true in this case.

Anonymous said...

The Novus Ordo is Protestant.
All Faithful Catholics should beging a campaign against the Novus Ordo....for robbing us of our Catholic heritage and traditions for 40 years and giving us in its place "make-it-up-as-we-go-along" garbage.

Mark said...

Anonymous said: "God Bless Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre and the SSPX !!!!"

God bless the FSSP too!!

Anonymous said...

A few months ago, a writer at New Oxford Review had an interesting interpretation of such phenomena: it is possible that the Pope believes that what is needed is what the Council called for: a reform of the Roman Rite. Thus, he has left the NO alone, and will work towards liberating and reforming in small areas the pre-Bugnini mass. I think the Pope has faith in the Council, in what the Council really intended, not in what emerged, and I think he sees the NO as a mess that is better left untouched. We know from his writings that BXVI believes many if not most NO-Church-parishioners are not living Catholic lives, so his focus is on those who are living Catholic lives. Your typical Am-Church parish is destined to either disappear or, through eventual schism, become protestant.

Anonymous said...

It really is gas the way some people view the Church or at least the posters here..could be somed up by this.."No salvation outside the Church membership of which is mortaly sinful".
The virtue of obedience is at an all time low in the Church.

poeta said...

The Novus Ordo will have to choose its future. Either it will go the way of Tradition, or it will go the way of the Jesuits.

Tom S. said...

I'm with Br. Anthony, et al.

With each passing week, I'm more and more inclined to think that the Novus Ordo is just a total loss...

And I find myself praying for the SSPX to start a chapel nearby...

Anonymous said...

As much as I continue to wait for a more solemn offering of the NO, I don't see it. The new, "traditional" priests are not offering it. If there is a bone of true traditional Catholocism in their bones, have them pray the mass ad orientem, in Latin, etc. Let us see if this is a power struggle with libby bishops. Either way, I don't see a future for the Reform of the Reform in the Ordinary Form. Good enough for the Saints, good enough for me!

Anonymous said...

VC II didn't say anything about a new mass. That will forever be Paul VI's legacy. Poor soul.

Obedience to the Pope or to tradition? If a Pope makes me choose, and there is a free choice here (thank you, Holy Spirit), I'll take tradition. You can have the failed mass.

Anonymous said...

Reform the work of the Holy Spirit? You've got to be kidding me!

xm said...

Beware! If there's to be no "Reform of the Reform", then the reformers will try to reform the "extraordinary form" instead.

Jordan Potter said...

I do not look for any major strokes of "reform of the reform" in the foreseeable future. At least not much more than we have already been seeing -- Liturgiam Authenticam, Redemptionis Sacramentum, and the ongoing translation work that probably won't be complete for another two years. Summorum Pontificum was an immensely important liturgical reform, however, and in time it will exert a positive influence on the ordinary use of the Roman Rite. In the mean time, though, I don't expect major reforms of the ordinary use, certainly not before ICEL completes its translation work. One of the most harmful effects of the post-Vatican II botched liturgical reform has been the instability created by the constant and frequent tinkering with the Roman Missal. I just can't imagine Pope Benedict wishing to continue that recipe for liturgical instability that has had such a deleterious effect on the faith and culture of the post-Vatican II Catholic Church.

schoolman said...

I think we need to consider Summorum Pontificum as part of and perhaps the driving force behind the ROTR and liturgical reform in general. The express wish of the Holy Father is that the EF will have its influence on the celebration of the OF (ROTR). On the other hand, future enrichments to the EF should be expected and could be influenced by some of the best aspects of the OF. In this sense the ROTR is really only one aspect of a larger liturgical reform intended by the Holy Father.

Anonymous said...

Summorum Pontificum WILL eventually combine the two forms into the "Reform of the Reform". SP is not about the Restoration of the Roman Rite but to cleverly mislead traditionalists into their reform.

Logicus said...

Let's do a little syllogism, shall we?

Mgr Ranjith says that the practice of communion in the hand is undesirable.

Mgr Ranjith then says that the new order of things will not be changed.

Ergo: Mgr Ranjith is supporting the use of the Forma Extraordinaria.

QED

Anonymous said...

I can understand the Archbishop making a statement like this now. However, when he is appointed the Prefect for Divine Worship I can't help but think that it will be full steam ahead based on his previous candid and un-Romanita remarks. The man obviously does not want to say or do anything that is reckless and out of the range of what our Holy Father is already doing.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

John Vennari of Catholic Family News wrote an article on this issue. His best statement was:

"Let us further pray that the Vatican soon eliminate the most widespread abuse of all – the Novus Ordo Mass itself; an ecumenical liturgy written with the help of six Protestant ministers that Cardinal Ottaviani warned 'represents in its whole and in its details a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as codified by Session XXII of the Council of Trent'."

I say "AMEN" to that!!!

xm said...

SP is not about the Restoration of the Roman Rite but to cleverly mislead traditionalists into their reform.

The Holy Father is obviously receiving bad advice from some influential quarters--and I'm not talking about liberals, but so-called traditionalists. Petition campaigns are needed to circumvent this.

Braadwijk said...

Those who advocate the abolition of the Novus Ordo not only set themselves up for a double standard but also lack charity for the Catholics who attend the Novus Ordo. You simply cannot absorb them into the EF without causing a great deal of damage. Not only are you throwing the EF to the lions, but have any of you ever considered the Catholics who were born after 1969, who in addition to having no memory of the EF may even be programmed to hate it? Piety cannot be forced upon people. The consequences of such a change would be unfathomable. You would do the same thing to them that happened to many Catholics after the Council.

The other issue of this is the double standard. Am I getting this correctly? The Pope has no authority to guide the organic development of the EF but he is somehow obligated to issue down edicts to the Novus Ordo and play it with extensively because you consider it an eyesore? If the axioms apply to the EF, they apply to the Novus Ordo as well. Contrary to what some of you may believe, you're really not that special. The Pope is not trying to change anything on a grand scale; he is simply leveling up the playing field and giving both an equal fight. The rest is up to God.

These things do not sort themselves out right away, and I think a lot of people fail to see the bigger picture. The afflictions of the Church today were a very long time coming, and they were only noticed by a wise few who were not taken seriously. It will be awhile yet before they are solved because Grace works with nature; it does not force it or dominate it. I hate to be the Debby Downer of the comment box to those of you who think the warrior Pope can bash the skull of the heretic to get his way, but we aren't living in the Middle Ages anymore. The Pope cannot control these people, and he knows it. (You couldn't control them if you were the Pope, either.) Let the two forms of the Rite coexist until the EF wins. Time is quickly running out for the 60's generation and they have nothing to show for themselves. Let the free market of ideas finally put them in their graves and stop bickering about it like old ladies.

I see the people who call themselves Traditionalists as people very afraid of being anything other than the exception to the rule, and you have just as much a choice in this as the Novus Ordo does. The restoration means a very big change for you all as well, and that includes some things you may or may not be comfortable with doing. You can make your stand, or you can cut yourselves off and fade out as well.

Anonymous said...

John Venarri of Catholic Family News = unrealistic nut job with a bully pulpit

Carlos Palad said...

Just a thought:

Remember that Summorum Pontificum speaks of a "review period" three years down the line -- that will be in 2010, which isn't really that far away.

Do you really think that the heightened anti-Roman sentiments being expressed in the blogosphere and the comboxes will escape detection? It seems that Summorum Pontificum, far from dousing the flames of the rad-trad movement, has only made it and the SSPX and their fellow travelers bolder and more extreme in expressing their contempt for the Novus Ordo, for Vatican II, and for Benedict XVI himself.

Do you really think that the "other side" is unaware of what is happening?

Caution, caution. Don't act as if you now own the Church and as if you're all wiser than the Pope. The partisans of liberalism are alive and well and are not as weak as you would like to think, and the more you utter sentiments like those in this combox, the more proofs and weapons you are giving to them. Who is to say that they will not be able to persuade Pope Benedict XVI (or his successor, if he isn't around by 2010) to proclaim the experiment of Summorum Pontificum to be a failure and a danger to the authority of Vatican II?

Gian said...

carlos palad strikes the nail. The chief problem I see with tradition is an attitudinal problem. If only every traditionalist had more true charity, I believe they would be able to effect the changes they need. The only problem with the SSPX is precisely that: the constant bad attitude against the Vatican. I think if that melted, perhaps then the Pope would see that they are truly on the Papacy's side, and would perhaps give greater concessions. But if His Holiness sees these attacks, why should he? [I think he still should, because after all, there is only one truth]

Chironomo said...

And remember that for a politician (which Ranjith is), denial is the last step before full disclosure. Of course there is reform going on... take a look for yourselves...if one expects that the NO will be transformed into the EF inside of a year, then you will no doubt be disappointed. If, however, we have as our goal the eventual (could be many, many, many years from now) movement towards a Novus Ordo liturgy that is celebrated as was intended, in continuity with our tradition, then we have much to be hopeful for. I think if we had been around at the time of the Council of Trent, we would have already given up on the Church and declared Martin Luther the winner since nothing had changed by seven months afterwards...

Anonymous said...

The reality is that due to lack of priests, the Novus Ordo may die out even without formal abrogation.

Pray for vocations and the conversion of the clergy to Tradition.

The advice to 'be more charitable' is well taken, but that also should apply to those who launch vitriolic attacks against traditionalists and SSPXers.

Anonymous said...

The novus ordo, celebrated as was intended, is not in continuity with tradition, but meant to be palatable to heretics. As such it is inherently corrosive to the faith. Louis

Anonymous said...

Attitude is the biggest problem? You're trying to change the faith into protestantism and you don't understand our bad attitude? Reread Machabees and tell them to clean up their attitude.

You "can't we all just get along" guys are truly clueless and hopeless.

Anonymous said...

Someone said:

"Caution, caution. Don't act as if you now own the Church and as if you're all wiser than the Pope. The partisans of liberalism are alive and well and are not as weak as you would like to think, and the more you utter sentiments like those in this combox, the more proofs and weapons you are giving to them. Who is to say that they will not be able to persuade Pope Benedict XVI (or his successor, if he isn't around by 2010) to proclaim the experiment of Summorum Pontificum to be a failure and a danger to the authority of Vatican II?"

The New Religion bears within itself the seeds of its own destruction. This is apparent now. All we trads need do is hold on for a few more decades. There will be no one left in the pews nor at the "presider's chair" to receive our condemnation from Rome.

Unsquared Circle

carlos palad said...

To those prophesying the imminent "death" of the Liberal Church:

You seem to be unaware that liberalism is, in fact, growing and becoming more virulent in Asia (where I am), Africa and Latin America. Charismaticism is also growing at a much faster rate worldwide than the traditionalist movement. Where the USA was in the 70's, there the churches of the "Third World" are right now. I'm in the thick of the fight in my corner of the planet and I can only say that the glee and optimism of many "conservative" and "traditionalist" Catholics in the USA and western Europe is highly unwarranted right now.

I wish you'd stop thinking that the Church in the USA and in western Europe constitute the sum total of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is much bigger than that -- and the fight against liberalism will be much worse and much more prolonged than so many here would like to think.

Oh, by the way, I'm not so sanguine about the vocations either. Trad communities may be having a steady stream of vocations but it is dwarfed by the vocations explosions in some Latin American, African and Asian communities -- communities that, while full of sincerity and good will, are submerged in heterodox liturgics and shaky doctrine.

Carlos Palad said...

"Since the TLM comes to us from the apostles..."

The MASS comes to us from Christ through the Apostles. The liturgical families are traceable to the apostles.

However, the PARTICULAR forms that the Mass has taken have their beginnings in the centuries after the apostles. The Roman Rite received its basic form under Pope St. Gregory I and the popes of the Carolingian era. The Byzantine Rite assumed its present form in the 13th-14th centuries. The other Eastern rites date back to the 7th - 9th centuries.

To speak of the TLM as the "Mass of the Apostles" not only implies that the other legitimate and traditional rites of the Catholic Church do not come from the apostles, it is also an example of the cartoon liturgics that so many trads espouse and which give the TLM movement a bad name.

Carlos Palad said...

By the way, why can't all the pope-bashers here identify themselves?

New Catholic said...

"Trad communities may be having a steady stream of vocations but it is dwarfed by the vocations explosions in some Latin American, African and Asian communities -- communities that, while full of sincerity and good will, are submerged in heterodox liturgics and shaky doctrine."

Mr Palad, you are correct - and it disturbs me deeply that self-described Conservative or Traditional Catholics in the wealthier nations do not recognize the influence that these new priests (whose numbers dwarf all Traditional communities combined) currently have in the Church - an influence which will greatly increase in the future.

Oremus pro Pontifice nostro Benedicto!

LeonG said...

"We don't need a "reform of the reform." What we DO need is the complete abolition of the reform (Novus Ordo Missae) and a full restoration to the Tridentine Mass."

Amen, Brother Anthony, Amen.

It would be impossible to reform such a contrived and defective instrument as the Bugnini service since it was designed to desacralise the priesthood; laicise the Holy Mass; deconstruct the necessary associated doctrines such as transubstantiation; deregulate obligatory individual Confession and institutionalise novelty and permanent change. With these corrosive devices implanted into the modern liturgy, it has been possible to empty out thousands of churches; close seminaries too numerous here to mention; destroy the normal liturgical sensus catholicus of the sacred & concomitant reverence; reduce liturgy to a horizontalist, collectivised form of Sunday entertainment and it has given more than ample space to radical feminist and sexually deviant undercurrents. In the last year alone, surveys indicate quite clearly thatchurch attendance has continued to plummet significantly throughout western christendom to bear witness objectively to the fact that the Bugnini service is not a customary Catholic form of The Holy Sacrifice of The Mass. Consequently it continues its inexorable collapse.

The sooner The Vatican wakes up and accepts this as reality and puts the brakes on post-conciliar modernist liturgical novelties which are neither organic developments nor are they faithful to any hermeneutic of continuity, then the sooner a genuine restoration of all things in The Christ can take place. It is obvious that the liturgy has been held to ransom by non-Catholics and their dubious allies. It has even often become a vehicle for socio-political protestation and anti-Catholic clerical and Episcopal misbehaviour.

Any Roman Catholic in their heart of hearts knows that the "vernacular only" form of the rite was wisely anathematised for the very reasons demonstrated graphically in most modern catholic churches every Sunday.

The only cure is The Latin Rite of The Holy Mass: in Latin following orthodox Roman Catholic norms and values.

Anonymous said...

"Trad communities may be having a steady stream of vocations but it is dwarfed by the vocations explosions in some Latin American, African and Asian communities -- communities that, while full of sincerity and good will, are submerged in heterodox liturgics and shaky doctrine."

Carlos, can you give us some statistics so we have a point of reference?

Anonymous said...

"I'm in the thick of the fight in my corner of the planet and I can only say that the glee and optimism of many "conservative" and "traditionalist" Catholics in the USA and western Europe is highly unwarranted right now."

I'm the one who speculated about the demise of the Novus Ordo, but it's hardly a matter of "glee and optimism." It's an intense spiritual fight where we must pray for vocations and for the return of the clergy to orthodoxy and tradition.

No doubt Carlos is doing his part in this struggle. Based on his posts in Catholic Answers forums, it seems that he is doing a phenomenal job training Filipino priests in the old rite. I wish he'd give us an update about how many priests he has trained.

Giangaleazzo said...

I think that it would be better if Traditionalists focused on Christ, the Holy Mass, preaching true doctrine to a more fuller degree, and instilling charity into the Faithful, rather than focusing, I think, too much on politicking and unfortunate attacks on the Pope. This is perhaps asking too much in our current times, when Saints are scarce, and those who desire to be so too, though Traditionalists still beat the others in terms of actually doing the good things mentioned above. True charity does not mean be tolerant, hold hands, and sing Kumba ya, but it does mean rebuke when necessary, in all patience and doctrine.

Without charity, we are nothing:
Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely, is not puffed up,
Charity is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil: Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth with the truth (1 Cor 13).

If we thought about this more deeply, Traditional faithful would be able to change the world. Alas, it is not rare that they turn off persons of good will, though truly, because of all our sins, can we expect any better?

Though we are all called to be Saints, perfect as Our Father is perfect.

Anonymous said...

Someone said:
"Trad communities may be having a steady stream of vocations but it is dwarfed by the vocations explosions in some Latin American, African and Asian communities -- communities that, while full of sincerity and good will, are submerged in heterodox liturgics and shaky doctrine."

The United States was having an explosion of vocations at just the time it was swamped by Vatican II. Even with all those vocations in areas turning more and more heterodox and becomming more and more materialistic (a la the West),we will see the Church there implode just as it did in the West. One may view this as positive or negative, and take glee in it, or not, but implode it shall. Someone said something about a house built on sand... That's it: The Church, when she ceases to be herself, ceases to be. That simple. In one hundred years, she may be small, indeed, but she will be herself: all the dross will have been poured away, absorbed into the World and pass like mist before the sun.

Fr. J. said...

We may be forgetting here a major opportunity to bring the new mass back to its proper observance. In the English world (which has had the worst abuses) the new translation of the sacramentary coming out in 2009 will force everyone to use missalettes in order to follow the mass and participate. Between the linguistically elevation and theologically correction of the texts, a new dignified spirit will imbue its celebration.

Furthermore, putting the rubrics before the people once again will bring back gestures and postures which have been dropped in many places such as striking the breast, etc. Most English speakers have not even looked at those rubrics in the past 30 years. Bringing these back will make a big difference for the great majority of Catholics. Also, the increased use of Latin for the people's responses is already being see around the country.

Remember, the pope believes in organic development which means it will be gradual. He is right on this one, and I trust him. He knows what he is doing. Anything faster and the vast majority of Catholics would revolt. So, let's continue to practice patience.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

Charity towards Novus Ordonarians?

Sure, but what about the charity we owe God - the adoration we owe the Most High! How can this possibly be achieved with a Mass that was concocted to destroy the Catholic Faith and turn us into ecumaniacs?

God comes first; everybody else is second.

Anonymous said...

"Sure, but what about the charity we owe God - "

Charity is the love of God above all things, and love of neighbor for His sake. There's no contradiction here.

It is certainly true that erring souls may need to be rebuked, but harsh words need not be used as a first resort, and where they're not absolutely necessary, they shouldn't be used at all.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

I never said anything about using harsh words. Of course, we must be gentle in our approach. But we must also be firm and not compromise. The Novus Ordo is exactly that - a compromise. The Novus Ordo seeks to please man at the expense of God.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous wrote:

"It would seem to me that this means that the only reform going on now is the reform of the 1962 Missal. The SSPX are looking more attractive by the day!

I knew all along that there would be no "Reform of the Reform."
The low-life liturgists and other neo-Protestants in the Vatican would never permit it. This Pope, while well intentioned, is very wimpish about ruling, governing, guiding, directing, with concrete directives, rules, pronouncements, guidelines, changes etc. Everyone in the Vatican is more interested in preserving the legacy of Vatican II... and of John Paul II, than in rescuing the Church from collapse. And that is sick.

The only salvation for the Catholic Church is the Tridentine Latin Mass. And perhaps the SSPX."

()

You said it very well. My opinion is that Ranjith has been threatened somehow. Notice that when someone in the Vatican comes out speaking forcefully for Tradition, they suddenly backtrack or quietly vanish back into the woodwork. On the other hand, let some fat-mouth Vat2 liberal like Piero Marini or a Richard McBrien fly off the handle, they get to carry on forever. No restraint, no hushing of them. It's then reported it's their own opinion, etc. Funny how the same isn't accorded to those who stand up for Truth and Tradition.

Regarding SSPX, I appreciate their efforts and what they stand for, I really do, but until they are apostolically regularized, no.

Matt

Anonymous said...

Some person said:

"Sure, but what about the charity we owe God - "

Charity is the love of God above all things, and love of neighbor for His sake. There's no contradiction here.

It is certainly true that erring souls may need to be rebuked, but harsh words need not be used as a first resort, and where they're not absolutely necessary, they shouldn't be used at all."

()

If your child was raped or molested, I want to see how you "piously rebuke" the perpetrator. Let me paraphrase, "Oh, poor lost soul. Repent. God loves you," while you're standing there waving a holy card.

JustMe said...

The eyes of some here are not on the risen Christ in the Holy Sacrifice of any/every valid Mass. Worse, the unforgivable sin is being allowed/fueled here --that of attributing evil to a work of the Holy Spirit (the Council).

Jesus told us to pray not to undergo the test. It is a very serious test.

Carlos Palad said...

"You said it very well. My opinion is that Ranjith has been threatened somehow. Notice that when someone in the Vatican comes out speaking forcefully for Tradition, they suddenly backtrack or quietly vanish back into the woodwork. On the other hand, let some fat-mouth Vat2 liberal like Piero Marini or a Richard McBrien fly off the handle, they get to carry on forever. No restraint, no hushing of them. It's then reported it's their own opinion, etc. Funny how the same isn't accorded to those who stand up for Truth and Tradition..."

C'mon. Archbishop Ranjith has NOT been silenced, and has NOT retracted what he has said.

In contrast, Marini I was supposed to continue with a tour to poromote his new book, but it was cut short after the Vatican Secretary of State apparently told him to shut up.

Can't the people here see anything POSITIVE in what Pope Benedict XVI is doing? Ah, the hermeneutic of suspicion at work! Or are you so blinded by rage against anybody who is not a traditionalist that you can't see anything good in them?

Carlos Palad said...

"No doubt Carlos is doing his part in this struggle. Based on his posts in Catholic Answers forums, it seems that he is doing a phenomenal job training Filipino priests in the old rite. I wish he'd give us an update about how many priests he has trained..."

For now, I've trained two so far in the basics, and I'm not yet through with them. I'm also involved in initial planning for a training session, hopefully for mid-April.

Why can't we have simple, one-day sessions? For one thing, Latin pronunciation doesn't come easily to priests who've had absolutely no Latin. The very concept of "Say the Black and Do the Red" is a very hard concept to grasp for many priests, and some have a hard time memorizing simple Latin prayers. Training in the EF does not merely entail introducing priests to the Rite: it also entails introducing them to an entire culture that the modernism of the past 40 years have rendered alien to their minds and most basic presuppositions.

My main contribution to the cause of the TLM right now is in lecturing weekly on Catholic Apologetics to the members of the traditional congregation in the Parish of the Lord of Divine Mercy, in explaining the TLM and informing people about in in various Filipino Catholic webgroups, in assisting with new Mass sites and in helping priests get Altar Missals. I also spoke about Summorum Pontificum on national radio last year, and had to defend it from my unsympathetic priest-hosts.

Of course, I'm not the only one doing these things! There are so many worthy workers in the Philippine front who have done so much more than I have.

FYI: Some Filipino bishops and priests have forgotten even basic Latin prayers (Ave Maria, Gloria Patri, etc.) so it is a REAL challenge to train priests in the Usus Antiquor.

Carlos Palad said...

"Trad communities may be having a steady stream of vocations but it is dwarfed by the vocations explosions in some Latin American, African and Asian communities -- communities that, while full of sincerity and good will, are submerged in heterodox liturgics and shaky doctrine."

Carlos, can you give us some statistics so we have a point of reference?"


Some references:

1) The Neo-Catechumenal Way with its international network of 67 Mater Redemptoris seminaries, of 3,000 member or affiliated priests (1,200 of these having been educated at the aforesaid “Mater Redemptoris” seminaries) and 5,000 similarly-affiliated religious and some 20,000 communities present in 6,000 parishes is a significant force. Their liturgies ARE BY NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION CATHOLIC!

2) The MASSIVE Charismatic movement. In the Philippines, there are an estimated 10 million Catholics who are involved in it. The largest is the "El Shaddai" movement, while the most international Filipino group is "Couples for Christ" which has some 900,000 members worldwide, and a vibrant and rapidly growing presence in 160 countries. The goal is to be present in all the countries in the world.

There are charismatic groups in almost every parish, and charismatic spirituality has basically overrun traditional forms of piety. Catholic publishing in the Philippines is almost entirely charismatic in inspiration. Majority of Filipino Catholic vocations have come from the ranks of charismatics. There is a lot of genuine love for God among them... and a lot of ignorance about Catholic tradition.

The Brazilian charismatic movement is also growing, and certainly dwarfs Campos:

http://sistemas.aids.gov.br/imprensa/Noticias.asp?NOTCod=63138

In particular, there is the "Toca De Assis", a large Franciscan order in Brazil (with some fifty houses and hundreds of members) dedicated to charismatic and pop Catholicism. This group was founded only in 1994! Don't let the beards, big tonsures and habits fool you. I can see that they love our Eucharistic Lord all right... but they express it in the wrong ways.

Here are some videos of the Toca:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Su_tqvVRl9M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nySCtf5yzvY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP9uvPpUQIg&feature=related

In the USA, an article recently came out claiming that a third of US Catholics (and half of Hispanic Catholics) are charismatics. Even though thie figure seems exaggerated, the explosion of charismatic groups is certainly going to have a major impact on US Catholicism.

By the way, I have an essay on this phenomenon:

http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/2007/10/nlm-guest-piece-lest-we-forget-problem.html

I plan to expand this essay quite soon, especially with a section on the growth of what I would call the "Liturgical Charismatics" (Toca de Assis, Community of the Beatitudes, Community of the New Jerusalem, etc.)

New Catholic said...

Mr Palad,

Could you contact us (newcatholic AT gmail DOT com)?

Giangaleazzo said...

Mr. Palad, the second video brought tears to my eyes. Kyrie eleison.

LeonG said...

"First, the new form of Mass must be celebrated more traditionally.'

An oxymoron if ever there was one.

It is the Bugnini service which is the problem - not how it is going to be said. It is un-Catholic in several of its norms and values since this was its intention. It is anthropocentric, horizontalist and "vernacular only" which is inimical to orthodox liturgical praxis. Therefore, by definition it is uncharitable toward Almighty God. Take for example the so-called offertory which is based on a "like it or lump it" Cainite principle which rebelliously defies the orthodox Catholic Offertory norm. Or, for example, the radical feminist insistence on women defying St Paul’s epistolatory injunction and The Church’s long held tradition of women veiling their heads in the holy temple and of keeping silence. Even this supreme pontiff ignores as his immediate predecessors, nearly two millennia of normality: being seen with altar servettes and women functionaries on the modern church “worship space” as liberals prefer to call it. Further, the consecratory words “pro omnibus” have no Scriptural or Roman Catholic foundation. Progressivists can argue semantics all they wish, this formula is wrong & contains the seeds that have sown tares among the wheat. Moreover, “vernacular only” Masses are anathematized and have aided and abetted the obfuscation of Roman Catholic doctrinal norms and values. This trend has seriously impaired the propagation of The Faith from many perspectives. More scandalous still is the socio-political exploitation of Holy Communion with regard to prominent protestants who are not Roman Catholic, divorcees who are not validly remarried, “catholic” politicians who propagate ante-natal infanticide and to sodomites who are certainly not entitled to receive this sacred privilege. These vile practices proceed unabated and undisciplined. Worse still, they are encouraged by recent papal appointees.

The current pontiff has already stated that the NO liturgy is fabricated. This should be enough to have it abolished but it will not be since the intention, whether neo-conservatives like it or not, is to synthesise the Latin Mass of All Times with this entirely un-Catholic liturgical fabrication. That the Bugnini service is un-Catholic was known perfectly well by traditionalists who have held to The Traditional Faith since the modernistic environment of disorder and indiscipline became entirely official after 1969. Earlier, as Father Ratzinger, he criticized The Latin Mass in the 1960s for fossilizing practices and the devotions it encouraged of which he evidently disapproved. There is chronological equivocation at least in his point of view.

In the meantime, all other trends towards the progressivist tendency continue without stint. This cannot be denied and it cannot be camouflaged with a few dalmatics and the odd NO liturgy with “backs to the people”. There is no intended policy of restoration in the manner imagined by many sincere traditional Catholics. This is unrealistic optimism without firm objective basis. Rather, it is business as usual with the trappings of orthodoxy and the neo-conservatives in support. The Trojan Horse of The Latin Mass serves well this purpose. The best that can be said is that everyone should be clear now that The Holy Mass in Latin of All Time is neither abrogated nor obrogated. Certainly for that Pope Benedict XVI merits applause but we ought to know that it was the most difficult decision of his career and decided by conscience, not because he has any plans to replace one form of the rite with another.

With all due respect to the Pope today, for whom I pray daily, and to his office for which I have the profoundest respect one cannot ignore the current realities of the modern church, its liberal liturgical inclinations & its evident susceptibilities to secular public opinion where this is concerned and of which the prayer for the Jews like so many areas of contemporary Catholic life, is a casualty.

While official church teaching on abortion, the family and embryonic stem cells may be aspects of continuity in official statements there are also many non-Catholics who hold these positions. What use is it, therefore, to be charitable about the unborn or the norm of the heterosexual family when all about us Almighty God is treated to uncharitable liturgical misdemeanours without these being properly dealt with by those whose mandate it is to to eradicate & correct. The law of God demands charity to Him first. Our neighbours as ourselves follow in second place. To continue to permit the silent massacre of the liturgy and all too frequent desecration in the Holy Temple is reprehensible in the extreme. Anyone familiar with the dramatic consequences of idolatry, false religion and abominable ceremonial practices during the era of The Old Covenant recognizes the punishments to come. We have been superabundantly warned by Our Blessed Lord, by St Paul and by the Prophets.

Anonymous said...

25 February, 2008 17:48 anonymous said:

"Yes, abrogate the NO! No, wait, even better - sell it to the protestants."

Great idea, except that they don't need it - they already got one.

Joe of St. Thérèse said...

Anyone who thinks they're more Catholic than the Pope, we have problems.

Patience is something that's requred.

The NO is Theologically flawed, this is a well known fact.

I think that the solution involes many steps. (Not in any partcular order)

1. Let's get a correct translation of the NO from the ICEL. Many of the Theological flaws that are in the English NO are due to the dilebrate mis-translations on some parts (the for all being the most famous of these problem)
2. Returning to a vertical celebration of the Mass (ie. versus Deum (ad Orientem)). The simple change in position can do a lot with an increase in Faith.
3. Elimination of the Liturgical innovations (people gathering around the altar, versus Populum, changing of the black)
4. Communion on the Hand, needs to go. (I'm far too lazy to type the rest, look or it on my blog coming soon)

The Reform of the Reform is still on. Aparrently the Abp. was misquoted, which happens.

The Church can not proclaim invalid Sacramnts and Masses. The NO while not perfect, when it's done reverently is not that bad (I've analyzed most of the NO on my blog as well).

2009 should be better when the good translation comes out (well,supposedly)....and while I'm at it, Bishops' conferences need to be dissovled.