Rorate Caeli

Salvation comes from the Jews


My dear friends,

I extend special greetings of peace to the Jewish community in the United States and throughout the world as you prepare to celebrate the annual feast of Pesah. My visit to this country has coincided with this feast, allowing me to meet with you personally and to assure you of my prayers as you recall the signs and wonders God performed in liberating his chosen people. Motivated by our common spiritual heritage, I am pleased to entrust to you this message as a testimony to our hope centered on the Almighty and his mercy.

* * *

To the Jewish community on the Feast of Pesah

My visit to the United States offers me the occasion to extend a warm and heartfelt greeting to my Jewish brothers and sisters in this country and throughout the world. A greeting that is all the more spiritually intense because the great feast of Pesah is approaching. "This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations you shall observe it as an ordinance for ever" (Exodus 12: 14). While the Christian celebration of Easter differs in many ways from your celebration of Pesah, we understand and experience it in continuation with the biblical narrative of the mighty works which the Lord accomplished for his people.

At this time of your most solemn celebration, I feel particularly close, precisely because of what Nostra Aetate calls Christians to remember always: that the Church "received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles" (Nostra Aetate, 4). In addressing myself to you I wish to re-affirm the Second Vatican Council's teaching on Catholic-Jewish relations and reiterate the Church's commitment to the dialogue that in the past forty years has fundamentally changed our relationship for the better.

Because of that growth in trust and friendship, Christians and Jews can rejoice together in the deep spiritual ethos of the Passover, a memorial (zikkarôn) of freedom and redemption. Each year, when we listen to the Passover story we return to that blessed night of liberation. This holy time of the year should be a call to both our communities to pursue justice, mercy, solidarity with the stranger in the land, with the widow and orphan, as Moses commanded: "But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt and the Lord your God redeemed you from there; therefore I command you to do this" (Deuteronomy 24: 18).

At the Passover Sèder you recall the holy patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the holy women of Israel, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachael and Leah, the beginning of the long line of sons and daughters of the Covenant. With the passing of time the Covenant assumes an ever more universal value, as the promise made to Abraham takes form: "I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing... All the communities of the earth shall find blessing in you" (Genesis 12: 2-3). Indeed, according to the prophet Isaiah, the hope of redemption extends to the whole of humanity: "Many peoples will come and say: 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths'" (Isaiah 2: 3). Within this eschatological horizon is offered a real prospect of universal brotherhood on the path of justice and peace, preparing the way of the Lord (cf. Isaiah 62: 10).

Christians and Jews share this hope; we are in fact, as the prophets say, "prisoners of hope" (Zachariah 9: 12). This bond permits us Christians to celebrate alongside you, though in our own way, the Passover of Christ's death and resurrection, which we see as inseparable from your own, for Jesus himself said: "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4: 22). Our Easter and your Pesah, while distinct and different, unite us in our common hope centered on God and his mercy. They urge us to cooperate with each other and with all men and women of goodwill to make this a better world for all as we await the fulfillment of God's promises.

With respect and friendship, I therefore ask the Jewish community to accept my Pesah greeting in a spirit of openness to the real possibilities of cooperation which we see before us as we contemplate the urgent needs of our world, and as we look with compassion upon the sufferings of millions of our brothers and sisters everywhere. Naturally, our shared hope for peace in the world embraces the Middle East and the Holy Land in particular. May the memory of God's mercies, which Jews and Christians celebrate at this festive time, inspire all those responsible for the future of that region-where the events surrounding God's revelation actually took place-to new efforts, and especially to new attitudes and a new purification of hearts!

In my heart I repeat with you the psalm of the paschal Hallel (Psalm 118: 1-4), invoking abundant divine blessings upon you: "O give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; his steadfast love endures forever. Let Israel say, 'His steadfast love endures forever.' . . . Let those who fear the Lord say, 'His steadfast love endures forever'."

From the Vatican, 14 April 2008

58 comments:

Gian said...

Terrible. Almost everything in the speeches up to this one seemed very well. But this Judaization, condemned for 2000 years, is now propagated. We should just call for their conversion, as the Church has always done, even if it means suffering!

Gian said...

Moreover, salvation comes from Jesus Christ, there is no other name necessary for anyone. Salvation comes from (is out of, ie, is now separated from) the Jews.

Anonymous said...

True. But I'm afraid NeoCatholic and many others on this site will look upon the statement as a positive thing. It has taken me time to realize it completely, but this site is traditional only in externals.

Anonymous said...

"salvation comes from Jesus Christ,"
dear gain said,
You do know that when the Pope says that salvation comes from the Jews he is quoting our Lord. I just wanted you to remember that.

Anonymous said...

This is tiring. You know better. There was some form of grace and salvation before the Catholic church was given to the world, with the Holy Spirit confirming the Catholics and the sacraments, but it was much weaker than the Sanctifying Grace of the sacraments. The curtain was rent, the temple destroyed, the Jewish faith scattered, the Jewish priesthood ruined, while the Catholic faith unquestionably prospered spiritually. Salvation is now from the Catholic church alone. The rest is obstinacy and blindness. I have no doubt you would kill Him today just as you had him killed two thousand years ago. After all, you still hate Catholics, don't you?
Joe B

Anonymous said...

I think the warnings of previous Holy Father's, against these types of meetings with Jews and other "Christian" sects, was prescient. In order not to offend, the Catholic party must of necessity approach apostasy. The Holy Father's words, while carefully chosen as a learned theologian, seem to the average Catholic an affirmation that the Jews are saved outside the Church.

I almost wished that one of the Jews present had the temerity to stand up and ask His holiness the simple question: "Your Holiness...do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that we still wait for?" That is the heart of the matter. If the Jews are right, we are fools. If the Church is right, then the Jews are damned. There is no middle ground here.

Absolutely no good can come from the Holy Father visit to a synagogue, where he addresses them and never once proclaims Christ as Savior and King. Very bad.

JLS

Jordan Potter said...

Gian said: Moreover, salvation comes from Jesus Christ, there is no other name necessary for anyone. Salvation comes from (is out of, ie, is now separated from) the Jews.

If salvation is now separated from the Jews, then salvation cannot come from Jesus Christ, who has never stopped being of the stock of Judah, and who is the Penultimate Jew who brought the Torah to fulfillment. Your statement flies in the face of what Jesus told the Samaritan Woman in John 5, what St. Paul said in Romans 9-11.

You should also educate yourself on what constitutes Judaising heresy. There’s not a trace of it in the Holy Father’s message.

Joe B said: I have no doubt you would kill Him today just as you had him killed two thousand years ago.

Yes, they probably would. But more importantly, we probably would too. After all, He came to His own, and His own received Him not -- and we are His own, and we crucify Him anew, as it were, every time we sin.

Anonymous said...

I think a good question to ask and ponder is--Is the judaism of the rabbis (modern judaism) same in substance to the religion of the Temple? The answer to that question could shed some light on the Lord's statement--"Salvation is from the Jews"

boredoftheworld said...

"Jesus Christ, who has never stopped being of the stock of Judah, and who is the Penultimate Jew"

This can't be a safe question, but who is the Ultimate Jew?

Anonymous said...

As hard as neo-Catholics try to conceal and deny Jesus' words, Judaism is exactly what Jesus described in Apocalypse 2:9 and 3:9.

Anonymous said...

• Hebrews 7:18: “On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness…”;
• Hebrews 10:9: “Then he says, ‘Behold, I come to do your will.’ He takes away the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]…”;
• 2 Corinthians 3:14: “For to this day when they [the Jews] read the Old Covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away”;
• Hebrews 8:7: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another”;
• Colossians 2:14: “Having canceled the written code, with its decrees, that was against us and stood opposed to us; He took it away nailing it to the cross”;
• The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law…”;
• Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”;
• Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”;
• St. John Chrysostom: “Yet surely Paul’s object everywhere is to annul this Law….And with much reason; for it was through a fear and a horror of this that the Jews obstinately opposed grace” (Homily on Romans, 6:12); “And so while no one annuls a man's covenant, the covenant of God after four hundred and thirty years is annulled; for if not that covenant but another instead of it bestows what is promised, then is it set aside, which is most unreasonable” (Homily on Galatians, Ch 3);
• St. Augustine: “Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremiah also prophesied thus in God’s name: ‘Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...’ Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the spirit” (Letters, 74, 4);
• St. Justin Martyr: Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law – namely, Christ – has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy…Have you not read…by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…’” (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch 11).
• Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”;
• Cardinal Ratzinger: “Thus the Sinai [Mosaic] Covenant is indeed superseded” (Many Religions – One Covenant, p. 70).
• St. Cyprian: "I know the consequence of their rejection of the Lord."

(Robert Sungenis, The Old Covennat: Revoked or Not Revoked: “Jews and Christians: A Journey of Faith” Culture Wars, January 2008, pp. 20-21.)

Anonymous said...

"It is better that scandal arise that that the truth be suppressed."—Pope St. Gregory the Great

"Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend the truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them. "—Pope St. Felix III

Anonymous said...

Our Rabbis taught: They who occupy themselves with the Bible [alone] are but of indifferent merit;30 with Mishnah, are indeed meritorious, and are rewarded for it; with Gemara31 — there can be nothing more meritorious; yet run always to the Mishnah more than to the Gemara. Now, this is self-contradictory. You say, 'with Gemara — there can be nothing more meritorious;' and then you say, 'Yet run always to the Mishnah more than to the Gemara!' — Said R. Johanan:

This teaching1 was taught in the days of Rabbi; thereupon everyone forsook the Mishnah and went to the Gemara; [Note: Mishnah is the early core of the Talmud, Gemara are later hommiletical interpretations, and Tosephoth (or Tosefta) are even later and authoritative Talmudic accretions] hence he subsequently taught them, 'Yet run always to the Mishnah more than to the Gemara.'2 How was that inferred?3 — Even as R. Judah son of R. Ila'i expounded: What is the meaning of, Shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins?4 'Shew my people their transgression' refers to scholars, whose unwitting errors5 are accounted as intentional faults;6 'and the house of Israel their sins' — to the ignorant, whose intentional sins are accounted to them as unwitting errors. And that is the meaning of what we learnt: R. Judah said: Be heedful of the [Talmud],7 for an error in Talmud is accounted as intentional. —Baba Mezia 33a-b

Anonymous said...

"On the surface, Scripture plays little role in the Mishanaic system, The Mishnah rarely cites a verse of Scripture, refers to Scripture as an entity, links its own ideas to those of Scripture, or lays claim to originate in what Scripture has said, even by indirect or remote allusion to a Scriptural verse of teaching... Formally, redactionally, and linguistically the Mishnah stands in splendid isolation from Scripture....the Mishnah constitutes TORAH. It too is a statement of revelation, 'Torah revealed to Moses at Sinai.' But this part of revelation has come down in a form different from the well-known, written part, the Scripture. This tradition truly deserves the name 'tradition,' because for a long time it was handed down orally, not in writing, until given the written formulation now before us in the Mishnah.... Since some of the named authorities in the chain of tradition appear throughout the materials of the Mishnah, the claim is that what these people say comes to them from Sinai through the processes of qabbalah and massoret --handing down 'traditioning.' So the reason... that the Mishnah does not cite Scripture is that it does not have to." —Rabbi Jacob Neusner, The Mishnah: A New Translation. New Haven CT: Yale University Press, 1988. pp. xxxv-xxxvi.

Jordan Potter said...

This can't be a safe question, but who is the Ultimate Jew?

I think Jesus said that was St. John the Baptist, last of the Old Testament prophets, who had to decrease as Christ increased.

Mr. Potter, you cannot serve two masters.

Thanks. Neither can you, whoever you are.

As he has so many times before, Mr. Potter misrepresents Judaism.

What are you talking about? Have you even read my comment above? I didn't say anything about Judaism in this thread, only Jesus and Christianity.

I see that someone else has begun misrepresenting Judaism, though. Much of what he says is correct, but not all.

I urge you all to read carefully the words of the Talmud and the rabbis because that, according to the Jews themselves (!!!), is "Torah."

Yes, they call it the Oral Torah. But I urge you and everyone else to read it carefully too, but I rather suspect you haven't.

Jordan Potter said...

Why am I not surprised that Robert Sungenis' name has appeared?

Anonymous said...

"Jewish Mysticism: According to Rabbi Steinsaltz, Jewish mysticism – or Kabbalah – is the official theology of the Jewish people. Although the world of Kabbalah is profoundly symbolic and abstract, its teachings are of tremendous significance to the individual and to society alike. Its influences are evident in all Jewish spheres – the prayer book, the Talmud, and Jewish philosophy. Kabbalah is not a separate area of TORAH knowledge, but rather the hidden, spiritual dimension of the revealed aspects of the TORAH. These revealed facets of Torah – such as halakha (Jewish law) – speak primarily about visible, physical things; Kabbalah, on the other hand, speaks directly about spiritual entities, like the system of olamot (spiritual “worlds,” or graduated levels of reality) and sefirot (divine “attributes,” or channels of divine energy) through which God creates, sustains and directs the universe. It also discusses the interaction between those entities and the performance of mitzvot in the physical world. It is for this reason that Kabbalah has been called the soul of the TORAH."
http://steinsaltz.org/dynamic/content.asp?id=65

"Talmud --- The authoritative body of Jewish law and lore accumulated over a period of seven centuries (c. 200 BCE - c. 500 CE) in Erets Israel and Babylonia." —The New Encyclopedia of Judaism, Geoffrey Wigoder, editor in Chief, New York: New York University Press, 2002, ISBN 0814793996, page 747

Anonymous said...

Why are none of us surprised that ad hominem is all the "evidence" that Mr. Potter can adduce against Jesus, the Apostles, Doctors, Saints, Councils, Popes, Scripture, and even the admissions of the Talmud and rabbis?

boredoftheworld said...

"Jesus Christ, who has never stopped being of the stock of Judah, and who is the Penultimate Jew"

This can't be a safe question, but who is the Ultimate Jew?

"I think Jesus said that was St. John the Baptist, last of the Old Testament prophets, who had to decrease as Christ increased."


If Jesus Christ is the next to the last Jew and St. John the Baptist is the last Jew then who are all these other people, faux Jews?

I thought you were setting up a Monty Python reference about Michaelangelo painting the Penultimate Supper but now I really don't know where you're going.

Anonymous said...

Our Easter and your Pesah, while distinct and different, unite us in our common hope centered on God and his mercy. They urge us to cooperate with each other and with all men and women of goodwill to make this a better world for all as we await the fulfillment of God's promises.

So what's the problem? The Pope asks those with moral fiber to work together while still recognizing that differences exist between the groups.

I think this whole hubbub is overdone. If the Pope spoke erroneously, please post authoritative material to show how it concretely contradicts his words at this event.

Too many people are caught up with the Jewish spectre and ready to jump on the Pope for being hospitable.

Michael said...

Is there no significance to the Holy Father's words :

"that the Church "received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant."

If the Pope states that the covenant is concluded how can anyone suggest that he is somehow affirming that the Jews are saved outside the Church. This is nonsense.

Jordan Potter said...

Sorry Bored, I thought I knew what "penultimate" means, but I obviously didn't. I was using it for “par excellence” or something word like that.

Someone said: Why are none of us surprised that ad hominem is all the "evidence" that Mr. Potter can adduce against Jesus, the Apostles, Doctors, Saints, Councils, Popes, Scripture, and even the admissions of the Talmud and rabbis?

And why am I not surprised that you think I have uttered, or would ever utter, anything against the teachings Jesus, the Apostles, Doctors, Saints, Councils, Popes and Scripture? And why am I not surprised that you think my statement about Robert Sungenis’ name appearing here was intended as any sort of argument at all, let alone an ad hominem one? (By the way, you’re probably thinking of “well poisoning,” not “ad hominem.”)

Jordan Potter said...

Michael said: If the Pope states that the covenant is concluded how can anyone suggest that he is somehow affirming that the Jews are saved outside the Church.

He didn’t say the Old Covenant “is concluded” (which it certainly is), he said God “concluded” the Old Covenant with Israel --- that is, God “made” or “ratified” the Old Covenant with Israel. The Holy Father did not address the question of the current status of the Old Covenant.

Jay said...

What is the point of all these posts encouraging hatred of Jews. It is justified beyond doubt we have to hate killing of Jesus, the Son of God, as this is the most serious crime ever committed, but we are baptized Christians and we cannot hate those who committed this sin. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin, anything other is certainly not pleasing to God and is just sin of hatred, serious sin against charity. The line is thin and temptation is very easy for the evil one to gain the stronghold over souls. Please remember you hurt yourself and most importantly your soul very seriously if you hate others, no matter who they are. WE ARE CATHOLICS AND WE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HATE OTHERS!!!

New Catholic said...

Someone elsewhere made the empty comment that "the picture is wrong"... The picture is not wrong: it is just not the picture of the event, but we rarely use pictures of the actual event in our excerpts of papal pronouncements - our picture selection process is editorial and related to the text, not to the actual place in which it was pronounced, which is why the image used for the post on the Address to Representatives of Other Religions was one from the Vespers in the previous day.

Stanislas Wojtiech said...

This discussion is not about antisemitism, which is a sin for every Roman Catholic of Tradition.

But this speech seems to imply that the Jewish celebration of the prefigurative Passover still has a salvific or meaningful worth "alongside" Christian Easter, which is a clear indication of the heretical position that the Old Law is still valid and the Old Covenant without Christ (or even anti-Christ) is explicitly salvific for the non-Christian Jews, etc. etc. It is the heresy of simultaneousness of "two forms of Covenant", which is clearly heretical.

Christian Passover, the Resurrection of the one and only Messiah Jesus Christ, made worthless from the salvific consideration the Old Law's observance of Pesach.

Then this scandalous utterance by Benedict XVI:
They urge us to cooperate with each other and with all men and women of goodwill to make this a better world for all as we await the fulfillment of God's promises.

Superficially a nice statement. But 1) very naturalistic and earthily oriented: calls for an interreligious world peace order; 2) the scandalous suggestion that God hath not yet fulfilled His promises made to the seed of Abraham in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, Whom Abraham awaited, along with Moses and all holy prophets and faithful ancient Jews.

Does this mean that Benedict XVI also expect the "fulfillment" in the Jewish non-Christian sense, of a Messianic figure or advent in future, does this mean that for the Jews Christ did not yet fullfil the Old Covenant's promises? Does this mean Benedict XVI also expects him "who will come in his own name" and whom the Jews "will receive", while they repudiated and persecuted Jesus Christ, the King of Jews and the only Messiah of Israel and the world. (John 5:43)

This speech again confuses all faithful traditional Roman Catholics, it strengthens sedevacantism as a movement and its conclusive explanations, and it supports religious indifferentism, U.N. ideas, Masonic political agitation, and overall indifference of "modern" Catholics to the divine conversion missions. Not only towards the conversion of the Jewish Nation, but also of other non-Christians....

Very sad. I am deeply offended in fact.

Hosanna Filio David. Lauda Jerusalem Dominum.

stanislas wojtiech said...

To "conclude" a Covenant, is the same as to make a contract. It does not say it is now fulfilled or no longer valid. It is a translation from Italian or German to English.

Salvation comes from the Jews. But Jews have turned away from salvation, they are the dead branches who tore themselves from the olive tree by their own unbelief..

Anonymous said...

...it strengthens sedevacantism as a movement...

Bosh! It does no such thing. Sedevacantism is an empty argument.

Jordan Potter said...

Stanislas quoted the Holy Father's words: They urge us to cooperate with each other and with all men and women of goodwill to make this a better world for all as we await the fulfillment of God's promises.

They are not scandalous, as it is undeniable that Pope Benedict believes salvation is found only in Jesus, and that all men, including the Jews, are called to put their faith in Him. However, there is a big difference (as St. Paul told the Galatians) between the Covenant or Law and the Promises. God has promised that when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then the veil will be removed from the eyes of the Jews, and the conversion of the Jews will follow. This is connected to the return of Christ, which the Jews still await. So, both Christians and Jews await the fulfillment of God's promises, only Christians know what it is we await whereas Jews do not yet believe the Messiah they await has already come. But the Pope's words cannot justly be construed as stating, or imply, or leaving the door open, to the heresy that the Sinaitic Covenant is still binding or is salvific for the Jews. We know he doesn't believe that, we know the Church doesn't teach that, and the Jews know it too. The Old Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus. If it wasn't, then we should not put our faith in Him, as He would not be Christ and Lord.

schoolman said...

This address must also be viewed in the context of the previous address:

http://zenit.org/article-22338?l=english

The goal of interreligious diologue is not only practical. At a more fundamental level it has the discovery of Truth as its primary objective.

"The broader purpose of dialogue is to discover the truth."

Of course, Truth and Jesus Christ are convertible.

Vox said...

I find the "Anonymous" writers to be cowards. You set yourselves up as your own pope, and you spout anti-Antisemitism that as a traditional Catholic, a Cantor at a Traditional Latin Mass to be sad and embarrassing.

How can you possibly think that we are not supposed to meet or talk to our elder brothers in the faith? Will they come to know Christ through mistrust or through our love.

Who knows why Judaism has survived these 2,000 years? God knows and He knows when the Jews will come to accept Yeshua Nzarat as their Messiah.

They will accept Him...it is up to the Holy Spirit's time, not ours.

As for as I am concerned everywhere the Pope has preached Jesus, including in Park Synagogue when he referred to "Jesus as a boy."

Vox said...

Sorry for the typo...

and you spout Antisemitism that as a traditional Catholic, and a Cantor at a Traditional Latin Mass I find to be sad and embarrassing.

Anonymous said...

Jay and Vox, you guys have vivid imaginations.

I see nobody "encouraging hatred of Jews." Not one post suggests hating anyone.

Vox, almost no commentary has been offered by anyone except someone posting as "Jordan Potter" (and all he offers are his own unreferenced opinions). As for the rest, how are actual quotes from the Talmud, the rabbis, and the Jewish Encyclopedia "antisemitic"? Are you suggesting that Jews and Jewish sources are "antisemitic"? Or are you suggesting that the Old Testament and the New Testament are "antisemitic"? Or are canonized saints "antisemitic"?

As best I can tell, you guys are projecting imagined emotions into accurate quotes that, with the detailed references provided, you may verify for yourselves. If the quotes are inaccurate, prove it.

Accurately quoting the Talmud and rabbis is hateful, but the Talmud itself and the rabbis themselves are not? Go figure.

Allow me to make a suggestion. If you think the quotes are objectionable, "dialog" with the sources.

Jordan Potter said...

Someone posting anonymously said: As for the rest, how are actual quotes from the Talmud, the rabbis, and the Jewish Encyclopedia "antisemitic"?

They're not, of themselves, but as we've seen here before, anti-Semites can quote, and misquote, and misinterpret the Talmud, the rabbis, and the Jewish Encyclopedia. Some of the above quotes are just that, and it also wouldn't be surprising if the person who posted them is an anti-Semite.

Allow me to make a suggestion. If you think the quotes are objectionable, "dialog" with the sources.

And when we do that, as has been done here before, we can also prepare for a stream of straw men and red herrings, and can expect to be lied about, dubbed Jews, Judaisers, Talmud apologists, false Catholics, neo-Catholics (one of the nicer things we'll be called). All very holy and spiritual and Catholic conduct, of course -- the kind of activity that draws converts to Catholicism in droves.

Anonymous said...

Except, Mr. Potter, that there is almost no "interpretation" offered by anybody — Only you, Vox, and Jay offer innuendo (against Mr. Sungenis), namecalling, and opinions without evidence, reading "antisemitic" hearts and "hateful" souls over the internet.

By my count, in the way of actual evidence offered there are 11 quotes from the rabbis, 2 quotes from Jewish "prayers" (actually curses), 3 quotes from the Talmud, 3 quotes from Jewish newspapers or websites, 2 quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, 87 New Testament references. 13 Old Testament references, quotes from 2 Councils, 3 Popes, and 6 Saints.

What is the unarguable gravamen of all that evidence?

1) Judaism abrogated and still abrogates, inverts, and nullifies Mosaic Law;
2) Judaism is based on racial supremacism, exhorts genocide and hatred of Jesus; and
3) Jewish sources admit it in their own writings
4) while engaging in much public deception on these matters.

Art

Anonymous said...

Where exactly are the "droves" of converts drawn by the Vatican II religion and its smarmy dialog?

Last time I checked the EVIDENCE, the pews emptied AFTER Vatican II.

Anonymous said...

Now Jordon et all., leave the last word to Art (who must have been the poster previous to JP's reply) so we can end on a Catholic, reasonable note.

Galvin

Anonymous said...

"Do not be taken in by the pedagogy of deceit that "Torah" is merely the Pentateuch or that Judaism adheres to Mosaic Law. See the considerable evidence above that Judaism nullifies Mosaic Law, "traditions" it through "process," "alters the very content of Mosaic revelation" because the rabbis themselves are "divine.""

In other words, the rabbis were the first modernists.

Anonymous said...

Yes indeed! A public pose and the private admission.

The very fact that the Talmud's claim of Jesus' closeness to the Roman government reflects some knowledge ... of the New Testament narrative, particularly of of John's version of it ... this detail exonerates the Roman government from the blame of Jesus' condemnation and consequently, adopting the Gospels' message, puts the thrust of the accusation on the Jews ... What we then have here in the [Babylonian Talmud] is a powerful confirmation of the New Testament Passion narrative, a creative rereading, however, that not only knows some of its distinct details but proudly proclaims Jewish responsibility of Jesus' execution. (Jesus in the Talmud, Peter Schafer, Princeton University Press, pp.73-74)

Anonymous said...

Touché! "... the rabbis were the first modernists."

Alternatively, "the neo-Catholics are the last Pharisees."

Anonymous said...

Jordan Potter,

Can't you see that (subject to the usual conditions of moral culpability) your contributions to these discussions are sinfully intellectually bankrupt?

Anonymous said...

"...In his address to the Pharisees, Benedict stated that Christ's Passover is inseparable from the Talmudic 'Passover' which they celebrate and that Christians are bound to these followers of Talmud and should celebrate the Talmudic 'Passover' together with them in the spirit of 'mercy.' What the followers of Talmud are celebrating, however, is not mercy, as Benedict falsely implies, but vengeance, and the hope that 'Esau' (Christians) will be annihilated, that Solomon's Temple will be rebuilt and that their Gentile-smashing 'Messiah' will come (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 5a)...."

http://www.mauricepinay.blogspot.com


Woe to you that call evil good, and good evil: that put darkness for light, and light for darkness: that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter. -Isaias 5:20

Woe to them that are of a double heart and to wicked lips, and to the hands that do evil, and to the sinner that goeth on the earth two ways. –Ecclesiasticus 2:14

No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. –Matthew 6:24

That with one mind, and with one mouth, you may glorify God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. –Romans 15:6

The double-minded man is inconstant in all his ways. -James 1:8


Diego

Anonymous said...

"...it strengthens sedevacantism as a movement..."

I am not a sede vacantist, but I agree.

Scandalous papal portrayals of darkness as light most definitely strengthen the sede vacantist movement.

Jordan Potter said...

Art said: Except, Mr. Potter, that there is almost no "interpretation" offered by anybody — Only you, Vox, and Jay offer innuendo (against Mr. Sungenis)

No innuendo against Robert Sungenis. I just recall his previous anti-Semitic and unscholarly trangressions, so I expect his name to surface in this sort of context.

namecalling,

Oh yes, I'm very familiar with namecalling around here. Very familiar indeed.

and opinions without evidence,

Not to mention a large quantity of "evidence" without context and often slanted and unbalanced at the expense of Judaism.

By my count, in the way of actual evidence offered there are 11 quotes from the rabbis, 2 quotes from Jewish "prayers" (actually curses), 3 quotes from the Talmud, 3 quotes from Jewish newspapers or websites, 2 quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, 87 New Testament references. 13 Old Testament references, quotes from 2 Councils, 3 Popes, and 6 Saints.

The florilegium and prooftexting methodology is often not the best way to present a subject in a balanced and accurate manner.

1) Judaism abrogated and still abrogates, inverts, and nullifies Mosaic Law;

Depending on the sense in which one uses "abrogate," "invert," and "nullify," one can also say thet Christianity does those things to Mosaic Law. There is better, more accurate terminology, though.

2) Judaism is based on racial supremacism, exhorts genocide and hatred of Jesus; and

Of course that's a pretty egregious distortion of Judaism, one with which the Catholic Church has no sympathy.

3) Jewish sources admit it in their own writings
4) while engaging in much public deception on these matters.


It is wrong to give Jewish sources the same treatment that anti-Catholic fundamentalist Protestants give Catholic sources.

Galvin said: Now Jordon (sic) et all., leave the last word to Art (who must have been the poster previous to JP's reply) so we can end on a Catholic, reasonable note.

If it's a Catholic, reasonable note we want to end on, there's no way Art and whoever else can be granted the last word.


Diego quoted: "...In his address to the Pharisees, Benedict stated that Christ's Passover is inseparable from the Talmudic 'Passover' which they celebrate and that Christians are bound to these followers of Talmud and should celebrate the Talmudic 'Passover' together with them in the spirit of 'mercy.'

There is not a single word in the Holy Father's address that Christians should celebrate the Jewish "Talmudic" Passover. The person who wrote those words perhaps did not read the Pope's words, or did not read them carefully, or, heaven forbid, might even be a conscious liar.

What the followers of Talmud are celebrating, however, is not mercy, as Benedict falsely implies, but vengeance, and the hope that 'Esau' (Christians) will be annihilated, that Solomon's Temple will be rebuilt and that their Gentile-smashing 'Messiah' will come (Babylonian Talmud, Pesachim 5a)...."

Hopefully people will not take this person's word for what Judaism allegedly teaches and celebrates, but will listen to what the Successor of Peter has said.

Anonymous said...

Jordan Potter,

You accuse Sungenis of unscholarly conduct, yet you constantly commit the error of imagining that your gratuitous assertions regarding Judaisim are the equivalent of proof. Potter dixit, verum igitur est!! Then, when you're caught out by the wording of the text, you try to pretend that it musn't really mean what it says, by accusing those more skilled than you in hermeneutics of being like protestant fundamentalists.

Keep this up, you're your own worst enemy!!

Jordan Potter said...

Someone said: You accuse Sungenis of unscholarly conduct, yet you constantly commit the error of imagining that your gratuitous assertions regarding Judaisim (sic) are the equivalent of proof.

Where have I ever said or even implied that the things I have said about Judaism, correcting the unbalanced and misleading portrait of Judaism that has been painted by selective and frequently misunderstood and/or out-of-context Talmud quotes, are the equivalent of proof? Now, if you don't have the time or the inclination to check up on what I've said yourself, I trust that you may safely accept what I have said and you probably won't go wrong, but really, you ought to check for yourself. Judaism really isn't the unmitigated evil that some like to think it is. Like all false religions, it is a mix of good and bad -- and since it originated from the religion of the Old Covenant, it has more good and truth in it than any other non-Christian religion. And really, try and have a little humility too, and consider that someone like Pope Benedict XVI might actually know a little something about Judaism, and perhaps even some things that you don't know.

Jordan Potter said...

Then, when you're caught out by the wording of the text, you try to pretend that it musn't (sic) really mean what it says, by accusing those more skilled than you in hermeneutics of being like protestant fundamentalists.

Of course this particular comment bears no resemblance to anything in this or any other discussion I've been involved in at Rorate Coeli. I could hardly qualify as being especially skilled at hermeneutics, and yet even I know better than to lift passages out of context and string them together in a florilegium, spotlighting only certain things and hoping no one will check up on me to find out if I'd omitted anything that gives a meaning to my prooftext that conflicts with the one I had presented. That's been done here before, and when I called the offender on it, he responded by calling me a Jew, that I wasn't Catholic, that I was an apologist for the Talmud. No way am I a Talmud apologist -- I'm just a Catholic who opposes shoddy and unfair scholarship.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Potter apparently hopes that others will dismiss the verbatim Talmud and rabbinical quotes as casually as he also ignores Jesus, the Apostles, Doctors, Popes, Saints, Scripture, and Councils. On his own word, without a shred of evidence, he makes accusations of "unscholarly," "misquotes," and "out of context."

You will get no traction here, Mr. Potter, with your novelties and innuendo. There are no misquotes or out of context quotes; Judaism nullifies Moses, embraces racial supremacism, blasphemes the Holy Family, deifies the rabbis, and boasts of it privately, while putting on a public face of sinless victimhood. The quotes are perfectly representative of the reality.

Megalomanical racial supremacism, blood thirsty exhortations, venomous hatred of Jesus, prurience, perversion, and pilpul pervade the Talmud and rabbinical literature. There is nothing Mosaic about Judaism except the pretense.

Jesus or Potter? Who will you believe?

Anonymous said...

Hmmm.... context.....context...... ahhhh..... let's put the Talmud's treatment of non-Jews as non-humans into the context of their genocidal Middle East theocracy.

July 2, 1946: The Bombing of the King David Hotel masterminded by Menachem Begin, 91 dead
April 9, 1948: Irgun and Stern Gang massacre 260 Arab civilians in Deir Yassin [http://www.deiryassin.org]
Sept 17, 1948: Yitzhak Shamir's Stern Gang assassinate Swedish peace mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte
October 14-15, 1953: Ariel Sharon commands attack on Qibya, 42 homes destroyed, 60 civilians killed
Holy Week 1954 Israelis desecrate Christian cemeteries in Haifa
July 14, 1954: Israeli Army intelligence, Modin, firebombs civilian post office in Egypt
1956 terrorist atrocity in Kafr Qasim, 47 cold blooded murders
1966, village of Sammu attacked, 18 dead, 100 wounded
1967 USS Liberty attacked 34 sailors dead, 170 wounded -- not civilians, but non-participants
June 5, 1967, "In danger of being attacked" Israel launches war, 759 Israelis and 15,000 Arabs dead
1969 Israeli bombing of school Bahdr al Baker, 75 children dead, 100 wounded
March 1, 1970, Israel invades Lebanon, civilian death toll unknown
Sept 8, 1972 Israeli bombing of Syrian and Lebanese civilians, "hundreds dead"
1974: Israeli terrorists attack civilian aircraft; desecrate Christian shrines including Church of the Holy Sepulcher, stealing the diamond crown of the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary
1975-1980: numerous Mossad assassinations of Palestinian scientists, journalists, and others
August 1982: 20,000 civilians dead from Israeli bombing of Beirut on the orders of Ariel Sharon
September 1982 massacres of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, 800 women, children, and elderly killed
October 1982: Israeli terrorists bombed houses, cars, and offices of three elected mayors of the West Bank cities, Nablus, Ramallah, and Al Beireh
1984 kidnapping of Palestinians on the high seas off merchant vessels
1986 Palestinian cartoonist, Naj Al Ali, assassinated
April 1988 Israeli commandos invade the home of Khalil Al Wazir, a Palestinian leader, and shoot him in bed
February-March 1989 Israeli jets bomb Beka Valley, 15 children killed, more adults
April 14, 1989 Israeli police and armed Jewish settlers attack disarmed Palestinian village, Nahalin, 8 killed, 50 wounded
February 1994 Kach Party terrorist Baruch Goldstein uses assault rifle to murder 29 Palestinians worshipping at Hebron mosque, rabbis praise his actions and then Prime Minister Yitshak Rabin gives permission\ for a memorial to honor Goldstein
February 27, 1994 Israeli Mossad bombs Our Lady of Deliverance Maronite Catholic Chuirch at Jounieh, Lebanon, 11 killed.
1996 Israeli massacre of civilians at Qana, Lebanon
April 14, 2000, homes of civilians bulldozed (actions admitted by Ha'aretz and praised by the canonized "Holocaust survivor" Elie Wiesel)
Dec. 10, 2001. “Palestinian activist Muhammad Sidir, 24, had his face maimed and burned and his eyes blinded by a U.S. made Israeli helicopter firing missiles in a crowded intersection during an assassination attempt on Sidir. Two Palestinian children died in the attacks and two other children were injured. Israeli helicopter gunships hovered over the carnage for five minutes, preventing immediate medical attention from being administered to the wounded and dying.” [http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine7.html]
December 17, 2001 Israeli troops murder Palestinian activist Yacoub Aidkadik
January 14, 2002 assassination of Palestinian resistance leader Raed al-Karmi
January 24, 2002 assassination of Elie Hobeika who was preparing to testify at a war crimes trial in Belgium against his former ally Ariel Sharon regarding Sharon’s masterminding of the Sabra and Chatila massacres
March 6-16, 2002. 200 Palestinian civilians slaughtered in Jabalya refugee camp in the Gaza ghetto
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine51.html
March 30, 2002, 5 Palestinian bank guards summarily executed in Ramallah
April 8, 2002 et seq., bombardment of the Church of the Nativity, Bethlehem, the only major church in the Holy Land that had survived intact from the early Christian period
April 9, 2002 (ironically on Yom Has Shoa, "Holocaust Remembrance Day"): Israeli massacre of 52 Palestinian civilians in Jenin
May 20, 2002 Mossad car bombing of Mohammed Jibril, Palestinian leader
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/palestine7.html
March 16, 2003 Rachel Corrie, 23, was crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer in Rafah, Gaza, as she protested against house demolitions
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/1583823_comment.php
April 11, 2003 Tom Hurndall, 21, from London shot in the head by an Israeli soldier as he tried to help a Palestinian woman and her children. http://www.electronicintifada.net/v2/article1358.shtml
August 4, 2005 timed precisely to interfere with Gaza withdrawal, an Israeli Army “deserter” (or operative?) and Kach Party member Eden Natan-Zada, using an assault rifle, attacked a bus killing 4, wounding 12 Palestinians [http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050804-110426-6510r.htm]
July-August 2006 Israelis bomb Lebanon for 33 days, preliminary death toll 1,300 http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1219684.ece, Lebanon’s infrastructure destroyed, termed “bombed into the stone age.”
November 18, 2006 Swedish human rights worker beaten, 5 Palestinians (including a 3-year-old child) beaten and stoned while the assailants chanted, “We killed Jesus and we’ll kill you too!” http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2006/11/18/hebron-day-06/
February 6, 2007 Foul mouthed drunken Talmudist harasses Palestinians on their land, “You and your f@#king Jesus can kiss my a$%....We killed Jesus and we’re proud of it...” http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f
2007 Amnesty International Report "Increased violence between Israelis and Palestinians resulted in a threefold increase in killings of Palestinians by Israeli forces. The number of Israelis killed by Palestinian armed groups diminished by half. More than 650 Palestinians, including some 120 children, and 27 Israelis were killed. Israeli forces carried out air and artillery bombardments in the Gaza Strip, and Israel continued to expand illegal settlements and to build a 700-km fence/wall on Palestinian land in the Occupied Territories. Military blockades and increased restrictions imposed by Israel on the movement of Palestinians and the confiscation by Israel of Palestinian customs duties caused a significant deterioration in living conditions for Palestinian inhabitants in the Occupied Territories, with poverty, food aid dependency, health problems and unemployment reaching crisis levels. Israeli soldiers and settlers committed serious human rights abuses, including unlawful killings, against Palestinians, mostly with impunity. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested by Israeli forces throughout the Occupied Territories on suspicion of security offences and hundreds were held in administrative detention. Israeli conscientious objectors continued to be imprisoned for refusing to serve in the army. In a 34-day war against Hizbullah in Lebanon in July-August, Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes. Israeli bombardments killed nearly 1,200 people, and destroyed or damaged tens of thousands of homes and other civilian infrastructure. Israeli forces also littered south Lebanon with around a million unexploded cluster bombs which continued to kill and maim civilians after the conflict.” http://thereport.amnesty.org/eng/Regions/Middle-East-and-North-Africa/Israel-and-the-Occupied-Territories

May 30, 2007 Former Sephardi Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu announces “absolutely no moral prohibition against the indiscriminate killing of civilians.” His son, Chief Rabbi of Safed Schmuel Eliyahu added, "If they don't stop after we kill 100, then we must kill a thousand," said Shmuel Eliyahu. "And if they do not stop after 1,000 then we must kill 10,000. If they still don't stop we must kill 100,000, even a million. Whatever it takes to make them stop."
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
June 1, 2007 "Israeli troops shot and killed two 13-year-old Palestinians [Ahmed Abu Zbeida and Zaher al-Majdalawi] near the Gaza-Israel border fence Friday, saying they were crawling toward the barrier in a ``suspicious manner.'' The boys had told their families they were going to the beach. (Guardian, June 1, 2007)"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6677257,00.html
July 5, 2007 Slouching Towards a Palestinian Holocaust by Richard Falk
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=13226
November 2007 The International Committee of the Red Cross issues a report on Israel’s inhuman treatment of Palestinians
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/13_12_07palestineicrc.pdf
January 20, 2008 Israelis admit to assassinations
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/946320.html

Except as annotated, see Moshe Lieberman & Michael A. Hoffman II, The Israeli Holocaust Against the Palestinians, available at:
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/cgi-bin/store/agora.cgi?cart_id=7142662.23482*px29R4&product=Books_and_Pamphlets

And before all that? Read Part I, especially "Jewish Testimony": http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/pinay/
AND
http://www.amazon.de/Zweihundert-Jahre-zusammen-Alexander-Solschenizyn/dp/3776622873/ref=sr_1_4/303-7529902-7614619?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208532801&sr=8-4
AND
http://www.amazon.de/Zweihundert-Jahre-zusammen-Juden-Sowjetunion/dp/3776650206/ref=sr_1_5/303-7529902-7614619?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208532801&sr=8-5

DEATH TOLL:
61.9 million
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

Jordan Potter said...

Someone said: Mr. Potter apparently hopes that others will dismiss the verbatim Talmud and rabbinical quotes as casually as he also ignores Jesus, the Apostles, Doctors, Popes, Saints, Scripture, and Councils.

As usual, you haven't a shred of evidence to support your accusation. Your understanding of Judaism, of Catholicism, and of my own positions and belifs, stands in desperate need of enlightenment.

On his own word, without a shred of evidence, he makes accusations of "unscholarly," "misquotes," and "out of context."

Hey, I documented examples the last time you, or someone like you, spammed these commentboxes with out-of-context and misinterpreted Talmud quotes. There's no point in doing it again, but at least a voice of protest against such travesties must be raised lest there be no clean intellectual air to breathe in here.

boasts of it privately, while putting on a public face of sinless victimhood.

And you know this because you've gone undercover as a spy into the dark dens of the diabolical Jews, haven't you?

There is nothing Mosaic about Judaism except the pretense.

Only someone grossly ignorant of or extremely bigoted against Judaism would say something as foolish as that.

Jesus or Potter? Who will you believe?

God help anybody who chooses me over Jesus.

And God help anyone who believes that faith in Jesus requires one to believe and say false things and halftruths about Judaism, as our anti-Judaistic and/or anti-Semitic commenter(s) have been saying.

Anonymous said...

Jordan Potter,

It's quite evident that you lack the slightest idea as to what "out of context" means. As to the term "misinterpreted Talmud texts" your understanding of it appears to be idiosyncratic.

Your agenda forces you to be intellectually fraudulent (or more charitably, just plain stupid).

Anonymous said...

Mr. Potter,

The reference to "privately" is intended as a reference to the rabbinical literature that is expectedly read mostly by rabbis. Do you imagine that Neusner, Steinsaltz, et al. expect a Catholic audience? It is from that rabbinical literature from which the numerous quotes already cited were drawn.

So, yes,"privately" in the rabbinical literature, the rabbis admit what they deny in their various public announcements.

Anonymous said...

Potter sez: "As usual, you haven't a shred of evidence to support your accusation."

If it hasn't been dragged down by "New Catholic," readers are directed to last month's dispute on Judaism in which Potter was so bereft of evidence that he was reduced to denigrating purported deficiencies in Saints (e.g. St. John Chrysostom), Councils (e.g. the Council of Florence), etc.

Yes, this man so loves his own excellence that he can demote canonized Saints and infallible Councils. See the catholic Encyclopedia's entry on PRIDE:

"Pride is the excessive love of one's own excellence. It is ordinarily accounted one of the seven capital sins. St. Thomas, however, endorsing the appreciation of St. Gregory, considers it the queen of all vices, and puts vainglory in its place as one of the deadly sins. In giving it this pre-eminence he takes it in a most formal and complete signification. He understands it to be that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God, and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission. Regarded in this way, it is of course mortal sin of a most heinous sort. Indeed St. Thomas rates it in this sense as one of the blackest of sins. By it the creature refuses to stay within his essential orbit; he turns his back upon God, not through weakness or ignorance, but solely because in his self-exaltation he is minded not to submit. His attitude has something Satanic in it, ..."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12405a.htm

Anonymous said...

Potter sez: "Hey, I documented examples the last time you, or someone like you, spammed these commentboxes [sic] with out-of-context and misinterpreted Talmud quotes."

translation: Potter denied Talmud content because he couldn't find it in the PARTIAL Soncino Talmud translation that is online at come-and-hear.com. In fact, the "complete" Soncino has been redacted and, in its footnotes, admits that code words for Jesus are used. The recent Steinsaltz is the most complete and authentic Talmud translation in English, but Potter has so far refused to read it.

Further, the recent book by Princeton's Judaic Studies Professor Peter Schafer, Jesus in the Talmud, corroborates the Steinsaltz and other Talmud editions in boasting of Jewish responsibility for the Crucifixion. Without having read the book, in fact refusing to read the book, Potter criticized the book.

Having carefully examined dozens of vernacular and original language Talmud editions, here's what Schafer summarizes about the Crucifixion:

"The very fact that the Talmud's claim of Jesus' closeness to the Roman government reflects some knowledge ... of the New Testament narrative, particularly of of John's version of it ... this detail exonerates the Roman government from the blame of Jesus' condemnation and consequently, adopting the Gospels' message, puts the thrust of the accusation on the Jews ... What we then have here in the [Babylonian Talmud] is a powerful confirmation of the New Testament Passion narrative, a creative rereading, however, that not only knows some of its distinct details but proudly proclaims Jewish responsibility of Jesus' execution." (Jesus in the Talmud, Peter Schafer, Princeton University Press, pp.73-74)

Potter's "documentation" consisted only of cut & paste from the redacted and code-worded online Soncino. A sad showing for such an opinionated guy.

Anonymous said...

-A sad showing for such an opinionated guy.

Yes, and incompetent as a scholar, too.

Jordan Potter said...

Thank you for referring everyone to the previous "discussion" so those who are inclined to do so, and don't have anything important going on in their lives, may read for themselves and see the repeated and deliberate distortions and falsehoods about my statements and Talmudic teaching.

I wonder which one of our anonymi here is the one who finally let his mask fall in another commentbox, regaling us with the saga of how the Freemasons and Jews started World War I and World War II and managed to get several of their own members of lackeys elected to the Chair of St. Peter.

I would have to be seriously worried about the state of my soul and my faith if I were not regarded as a pseudo-Catholic or a poor scholar by such individuals.

Anonymous said...

Hmm. More vacuous nonsense from our resident pseudo-intellectual

Jordan Potter said...

Yep. But then did anybody really doubt that as soon as he saw New Catholic's had posted the Holy Father's message to the Jews, he wouldn't be able to resist the urge for long to once again tell just how rotten Judaism really is? This time he chimed in as the eighth comment.