Rorate Caeli

Will the Pope celebrate a Traditional Mass?
Don Guido answers it - or maybe not

The Master of Papal Liturgical Celebrations, Monsignor Guido Marini, granted an interview to Andrea Tornielli, published today in Il Giornale - of which two questions could not be published in print, and were posted by Tornielli in his blog, including the following:
Will Benedict XVI celebrate a Mass using the ancient rite, liberalized by him with the motu proprio?

"I do not know it and I in not in a position to answer it. I believe that a serene, ecclesiological, and non-ideological reading of this decision of the Pontiff ought to be important. The liturgy of the Church, as in any case all of her life, is made up of continuity: I speak of development on continuity. This means that the Church proceeds in her historical path without losing sight of her own roots and of her own living tradition: that may demand, in some cases, even the recovery of precious and important elements which, along the path, went astray, were forgotten or that the passage of time rendered less luminous in their authentic meaning. It seems to me that the Motu proprio moves in that direction: reaffirming with great clarity that there is continuity in the liturgical life of the Church, without rupture."

20 comments:

John Mastai said...

2008 is the 20th anniversary year of Ecclesia Dei. I cannot think of a better reason or more perfect opportunity for the Holy Father to celebrate the Extraordinary Form. And if not in St. Peter's Basilica, then perhaps in the Sistine Chapel on the high altar that he has already celebrated at. I believe this would be more manageable.

Vox said...

Say what?

Anonymous said...

Dan Hunter says:

What kind of an answer was that?

It was not an answer at all!

Christ said: "Let your yes mean yes and let your no mean no"

Matthew said...

It's going to happen and I would bet on it. Pope Benedict16 is going to celebrate Mass, Usus Antiquior.
The libs will then go entirely insane and begin to attack even more vehemently. The libs have already lost. The just haven't figured out that it's time for them to disappear,

FranzJosf said...

Is there yet a translation of the full interview?

Anonymous said...

It is surprising to see how touchy this subject is. As if celebrating the old mass required clarifications and warnings. Sorry, but I am very poorly impressed by the bs answer of Monsignor Marini.

New Catholic said...

Franzjosf,

Some other blog will probably provide a full translation; we usually try to translate only those parts which seem new or remarkable.

Thank you.

mfranks said...

Why don't we all write the Holy Father and ask him to celebrate the Mass in it's Extraordinary Form. Tell him how much it would mean to all of us for him to do this for the Church.

It would be truly a great gift to the Whole Church, if he would execute such a kind and loving gesture.

Paul said...

Fr. Z seems to have translated the parts of the interview that were published in the paper

Anonymous said...

Here is a translation of the complete interview:

In Genoa, where he grew up, instead of "Marini" they called him Fr. "Guidino", because he is tall and thin. In Rome, where he came by the selection of Benedict XVI last October, he has come to be appreciated for his gentility but also his decision to put into practice faithfully Ratzinger’s liturgical ideas. Msgr. Guido Marini, class of 1965, and for a few months now the new Master of Pontifical Liturgical Celebrations, succeeded the homonymous Piero Marini, for many years the artificer of the liturgies of John Paul II and also for the beginning of the present pontificate. If from the point of view of the name there couldn’t have been a smoother transition, at the arrival of Fr. Guido – holder of several doctorates, the sometime MC and Chancellor of two Archbishops of Genoa – he hasn’t gone unnoticed, thanks to the recovery of some traditional vestments. Old mitres have been exhumed, and the Pontiff has even changed his pastoral staff, abandoning the modern one in silver to take up a "ferula" (staff surrmounted by a Cross) of Pius IX. It has gotten to the point that the press during his visit to the USA spoke of a "vintage" Pope.

Il Giornale met with the MC in his office, from which one has one of most beautiful views of the Piazza of St. Peter.

In the first place, let’s ask the reason for the recovery of the precious headgear of his predecessors: for example, last Christmas, Ratzinger used mitres belonging to Paul VI, John XXIII and Benedict XV.

"The vestments chosen, as also other particulars of the Rite," the Master of Ceremonies explained, "are intended to underscore the continuity of the present liturgical celebration with that which characterized in the past the life of the Church. Continuity is the interpretive key, always the exact criteria for reading the Church’s journey through time. This is valid also for liturgy." "As one Pope cites in his documents the Pontiffs who preceed him, so as to indicate the continutiy of the Magisterium of the Church," Marini continues, "so in the ambient of liturgy a Pope uses also the vestments and sacred accoutrement of his precedessors to show the same continuity also in his celebratations. I would, however, mention that the Pope does not always use old vestments. He often wears new ones. The importance is not so much their antiquity or modernity, as much as their beauty and dignity, important components for every liturgical celebration."

Another huge change, more recently, is the setting aside of the modern silver pastoral Cross of Paul VI. Ratzinger has adopted a larger one, of Pius IX.

"Obviously," Marini explains, "what I just said about continuity applies here as well. In this case, however, there is also a practical element: the ferula of Pius IX is lighter and more manageable. So much so that the Pope decided to use it all the time, as was seen in also in the USA."

On some occasiones, as in the consistory for the creation of new Cardinals, the high papal throne was reinstated. Nostaligia for temporal power?

"No nostalgia", the MC responds with a smile playing on his lips. "The so-called throne, used in particular situations, is intended only to highlight the liturgical presidency of the Holy Father."

Finally, it was noted, from the moment Msgr. Marini took up his role, the presence of a Cross in the center of the altar, as in former times. Also in this case, the MC wanted to make understood the profound meaning of a choice that has nothing to do with nostalgia:

"The position of the Cross in the center of the altar shows the centrality of the Crucified One in the Eucharistic celebration and the precise orientation that the whole assembly is called to have during the Eucharistic liturgy: we don’t look at ourselves, but we look toward Him who was born, died, and rose for us, the Savior. From the Lord comes salvation. He is the East, the sun which rises, toward which we must all turn our gaze, from which we all must receive the gift of grace."

The telephone rings constantly. The last details must be finalized for the liturgies that Benedict XVI will celebrate in Savona and Genoa on 17 and 18 May.

We ask of it is difficult to be the papal MC.

"It is a demanding role not only for the amount of work, but above all for the responsibility it carries. I have really taken stock of the responsibility to live out with complete fidelity to the Holy Father the task which has been entrusted to me, keeping in mind that the liturgy which I have been called to serve and "organize" is the liturgy of the Church, and of the Pope".

Patrick Archbold said...

Translated: Not my job to say!

Anonymous said...

Correct me if I misread the interview. Older types of vestments were used to give an air of continuity with the pre-Vatican II magesterium. Seems to me an admission that, at the very least, the "reforms" of Vatican II did not lend themselves to appearing to be organic development of the Roman rite. But what I think is really bothering modern churchmen is the fact that many of the doctrines of Vatican II do not, in many cases, lend themselves to Catholic orthodoxy or are at least ambiguous or even worse - they are heterodox.

Anonymous said...

The modern world can't make the distinction between authority and temporal power. A throne, a canopy, a tiara, can only mean temporal power to these people. But a kings throne isn't a symbol of his temporal power, as a fortress is, but of his authority, a kind of power that isn't temporal. Is the modern world so dense that it can't make that distinction, or is all authority evil? As long as the Pope is at the mercy of the media, the ancient symbols of the papacy will never return. If a ten foot high velvet covered piece of plywood raises questions about the return of "temporal power," how could we ever expect to see the return of the tiara?

Anonymous said...

If the Pope does offer the Immemorial Mass, let's hope he doesn't appear in the rig-out shown in the photo attached to this post. It looks absurd!

Anonymous said...

Absurd? Simply looks as if the maniple is missing! Looks very dignified, especially compared to some of the clown suits I've seen over the last thirty years. Anonymous, what are you looking for? Rainbows? Happy faces?

Anonymous said...

The vestments worn by the Pope in the post are magnificent. However, there are older Papal vestments in the sacristy at the Vatican even better.
What Benedict XVI wore was his own piece, new and manufactured by "Tridentium" in Italy. They make wonderful re-creations of Roman Baroque and Borromean, and Gothic vestments, as well as Roman fiddlebacks.
I generally love the vestments Benedict XVI has been wearing....not the modern garbage JP II and his lacky Piero Marini loved so much.

Anonymous said...

I guess Benedict knows that the popular reception of his motu proprio in Italy and France has been direly disappointing. He doesn't want to put his foot in it by thrusting the extraordinary form in people's faces. He leaves that to disposable flunkies.

LeonG said...

"The liturgy of the Church, as in any case all of her life, is made up of continuity: I speak of development on continuity."

This he justifies with the neomodernist evolutionary (development) concept of "living tradition". Otherwise, he condemns himself with his own word prior "continuity". The Bugnini liturgy has none of the qualities that match this criterion. It is protestant, anthropocentric, horizontalist and endangers the faith of all who attend it as all objective evidence demonstrates.

As Pope Benedict XVI was driven by his conscience to write the SP it is clear he has little or no personally driven belief in the necessity of saying such a Mass. Therefore, it is very doubtful if he will ever do this in public at least.

"It seems to me that the Motu proprio moves in that direction: reaffirming with great clarity that there is continuity in the liturgical life of the Church, without rupture."

It seems to me that he has conveniently overlooked the last 40 years of deceit about liturgical abrogation; persecution of traditionalists and attempts to remove Latin & most traditional forms altogether from the life of The Church. There has indeed been a 'rupture' that he is trying to deny. Were that not the reality then the SP would not have been necessary in the first place.

LeonG said...

One fact is implied with even greater clarity: under this papal MC apart from a crucifix on the NO table, a touch of Gregorian and sacred polyphonics here and there with the reappearance of a few antique vestments the neomodernised Bugnini liturgy proceeds apace.

These do not match up to a restoration of the sacred liturgy. Nor do they indicate this as such. What we witness is one processual stage of the promised new synthesis in the fabricated, protestantised, postmodernist ecumenical liturgical format which we have been told in the SP is of the same Rite as The Latin Mass of All Times. Unless traditional Catholics are capable of deciphering modernist terminology they will fall into the same pit as the NO. It is absolutely necessary to scrutinise all the public actions of this papacy, not merely pretend every isolated appearance of a symbol of the pre-conciliar church means an authentic restoration is round the corner. It is also important to equate the public statements with the public demeanour.

While the SP was welcome it was driven by conscience not particular personal belief. The SP attempts to guarantee the status of the synthetic liturgical form. It is to this form that the hierarchy is attached by conviction. The Holy Mass in Latin and its faithful community are at liberty to use it but only as part of a pluralised community of disparate elements each with its own liturgical form(s) and doctrinal constructions. There is no intention whatsoever to restore The Traditional liturgy to its former unique place in The Roman Catholic Church.

In this solution can be understood the manner in which the neomodernist undercurrent of the post-conciliar establishment is working. Interreligious "dialoguing" and other ecumenical meanderings will achieve the remaining part of the goal of pantheistic superchurch bound by the mantra of "one people, one god".

Of course, we may hope that The Latin Mass of All Times will prove so attractive to Catholics & non-Catholics that it will supercede usage of other liturgical forms in the NO church. In this I must agree with the superior of the SSPX confraternity Bishop Fellay. However, the damage of division and disunification has already been inflicted, extremely deeply. Only one liturgical form and rite will rectify this in western christendom. No other strategy will undo the devastation so far imposed.

Anonymous said...

Sería importante que el Santo Padre celebre la misa tradicional para demostrar la continuidad de la Iglesia a lo largo de su historia.