Rorate Caeli

In the Viennese tradition

The Youth-Mass "tradition" continues in Vienna (Nov. 16, 2008). Is this what His Holiness meant by "deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear"? (Letter to the Bishops regarding Summorum Pontificum).

77 comments:

Anonymous said...

that's really creepy

Anonymous said...

What in the world was that?

Anonymous said...

These youth Masses remind me of some sentiments of St. Basil the Great during a particularly bad time (letter 90):

"The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived."

Aquino said...

I didn't go beyond the start - looked awful. Isn't the 'celebrant' Cardinal Schonborn? Hopefully he has seen the errors of his way for being involved in this stuff.

Roberto Laraia said...

Bellissima!

Anonymous said...

And the bishop is a cardinal who was a Ratzinger student and is a close friend of PP Benedict XVI.
He was, along with Cardinal Ratzinger, the author of the new cathecism.
Maybe he is just a potential John Paul III.

An Ordinary Priest said...

I have lost all respect for Cardinal Schonborn.

I have always had high regard for his writings especially but this is a horrendous scandal. Absolutely shocking, upsetting and blasphemous.

I hate to also say this, but, while praying every day for him, I also will lose quite a bit of respect for our Holy Father if this scandal is ignored. God help us, the smoke of satan is still very much in the sanctuary.

Anonymous said...

I don't care what anyone says -- that is not valid and that's a cookie they're handing out, not Christ.

Anonymous said...

and the horrible vestments that the Pope wore at Mariazell on full display. I was hoping that they burned them after the Pope left.

rev'd up said...

You gotta admit the spirit of that liturgy reaches out and grabs you.

Pledger said...

I must say I am surprised that Cardinal Schonborn would be part of that.

Anonymous said...

disgusting and scandalous

Tiago Veloso, cp said...

Please. I was a traditional man. But... for what?
This is the faith of our children! Let them be happy! God wants a smile! God wants faith. God doesn't like incense. For what He wants it?
Please, our Church have much dust from Constantine times. It is time to clean it from the royal throne...

Symeon said...

That was an archbishop! Whoever caught that on tape should send it to CDW right now and have those liturgical abuses (leavened bread, non-precious patens and chalices, BALLOONS) - and the terrible music - stopped.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for showing this. The naive need to learn that Schoeborn is a walking catastrophe.

Anonymous said...

That looks like leavened bread... wouldn't that invalidate the consecration??

Neal said...

Isn't Schonborn considered a conservative?

Anonymous said...

I don't know why anyone is so surprised.
This is the kind of stuff John Paul II supported....or at least turned a blind eye to.

Anonymous said...

He is a conservative. He is conserving the Spirit of Vatican II.

Paul Haley said...

My "plea to God" was to stop this nonsense, NOW!

This is the hermeneutic of rupture that our holy father spoke about and it is continuing even to this day. Those who tried to fix something that wasn't broken in Vatican II are still at work today. I call them the "shade-tree mechanics of Vatican II".

Commentator said...

Thank you, Rorate, for posting this. Consider it seen by the highest Vatican officials. You have buried Shoenborn for ever.

Leavened bread does not invalidate the consecration, but its use is a scandalous abuse.

It would be very good to post the date of this Mass, if you know it.

Joe B said...

Ave, SSPX.

Anonymous said...

Leavened bread would just be illicit right? They use leavened bread in the Eastern rites licitly and validly...

Jonas said...

simply horror; moreover, these young souls are in peril. And cardinal Schoenborn is responsible for that. I wonder about our pastors, whether they are thinking about their personal last judgement, immediately after death.

Ken said...

Wow -- it's been a while since we've seen actual video of a cardinal saying a completely invalid novus ordo.

So much for this "conservative" prelate.

Neal said...

He says the words of consecration over bread and wine (at about 1:10). The cardinal is presumably validly ordained and wishes to consecrate. There is no reason to think this Mass was invalid.

Anonymous said...

what is the date of this abusive Mass? has this happened recently?

Anonymous said...

Even in the great Stephansdom there are some liberties taken with the Mass, presumably with the approval of Cardinal Schoenborn. In fact at the end of the Requiem Mass there recently for the former Mayor of Vienna, they played a Strauss Waltz! This video of the 'youth Mass' is very disappointing.

dcs said...

Leavened bread would just be illicit right?

Yes. I think one might question whether or not this bread is actually leavened - unleavened bread can be quite thick. However, it certainly LOOKS like leavened bread. I don't think I've ever seen anyone have to take more than one bite to receive Holy Communion!

lms rep said...

This reminds me of Masses I endured at school. I thought all this nonsense was outdated 20 years ago.

Richard Truman Michael said...

I am astonished that Cardinal Shonborn took part in this. I have met him personally and he is nothing like that.
Let us hope he didn't expect what was coming.

Anyways, leavened bread doesn't invalidate a consecration, it is just very very illicit.

Jordanes said...

Leavened bread would just be illicit right? They use leavened bread in the Eastern rites licitly and validly...

That's right. In the Roman Rite, leavening in the bread would render the Eucharist valid but illicit, unless an exception had been granted by proper authority. There's no way to tell if any such indult had been granted to allow the use of leavened bread in this revolting excuse for a liturgy, so it would appear that this was a valid but illicit consecration. But even if the leavened bread was not an abuse, almost everything else about the liturgy was a mockery of Catholic liturgy. God save us from this ongoing demolition of the Roman Rite.

It is the most sorrowful shame that Cardinal Schonborn is responsible for this travesty. If I recall correctly, some of the best parts of the new Catechism, which treat the biblical account of the Fall as history, were penned by Cardinal Schonborn.

Anonymous said...

Pope Benedict xvi email:
benedictxvi@vatican.va

Lets make sure the Pope sees this atrocity and deals with it appropriately.

JARay said...

De his, libera me Domine!

JARay

QuantaCura01 said...

Was this filmed at Cardinal Mahoney's religous education congress in Los Angeles? This looks like a typical Newman Center Mass in the United States.

Long-Skirts said...

Anonymous said...
Pope Benedict xvi email:
benedictxvi@vatican.va

Lets make sure the Pope sees this atrocity and deals with it appropriately.



THE
PETITIONERS

They cock their pens
And write their pappy,
Spill their ink
On trees once sappy.

They do not fight
With soul and might,
They'd rather sit
And letter write,

Oh, these, our lords,
Approved patricians,
Who give their lives
For bloody petitions.

MERCI MARCEL!!!!
Ora pro nobis.

Anonymous said...

If you watch Schoenborn during it, he heaves a deep sigh of apparent disgust when the singing starts up just after the consecration (1:26-1:30). His own reverence during the elevation is palpable. Moreover, he is visibly _not_ clapping during the final song near the end (2:30-2:40).

It seems to me that either he was caught off guard or he felt that this wasn't the right time to fight a battle over the liturgy. Had he refused to celebrate he would have 'lost' the liturgical battle because the youth are so far acculturated to this sort of thing that they wouldn't be able to grasp why it was wrong. Schoenborn and Benedict have to move very slowly on these things, so that they can convert people to their view. A culture of obedience has been lost in the Church, and merely ordering a change will not procure a lasting transformation.

Anonymous said...

Shameful that a prominent Cardinal would be the celebrant in this atrocity. It is not mitigated by it being a "youth celebration." I pray that Our Lord have mercy and may the Successor to St. Peter intervene and hold accountable those responsible for this scandal.
Hasn't our Church suffered enough? Bring back the traditional Latin Mass.

Fr. Stephen, o.f.m. said...

Incredible!

Is the "President" of the "Liturgy" a victim of circumstances? Who is in charge?

Where is the Prophet? Where is the Teacher? Where is the Shepherd?
Is this a proof evidence for the
"hermeneutics of CONTINUUM"?

What happened to Peter?
Who is "minding the gate?"
Who are in charge?
Where are the Shepherds?

No wonder Our Lady was silent and only Her Tears of Blood spoke to us loudly, but as She told Lucia: "No one listened, neither the good nor the bad!" No one cared. Those who did, were silenced and cut off!

The warnings of the Lord were words of Prophecy:

"If the salt loses its power, if the ligth is covered up, they are worth nothing, but to be cast outside to be trampled underfoot."

ANY WONDER WHY 54%
of U.S. CATHOLICS voted in a man hostile to our Holy Faith to trample underfoot along with the teachings of Our Church and the lives of innocents! ABOMINATION! DESOLATION!...
"...Then the flood came and they were all destroyed." The persecution is about to begin and the blood of true witnesses will give birth to the pure faith, to the true Church!
Fr. Stephen, o.f.m.

John Mastai said...

One of the positive things to come from the internet is when such illicit and scandalous liturgical abuses are posted for the world to see. The abuses are horrible but it is excellent when they are put out there for what they are and for the whole world to see.

"For there is nothing hid which shall not become manifest, nor secret which shall not be known and come to light." (St. Luke 8:17)

I think that anyone who is able to and is concerned should take such videos, even with their cell phones, and post them on the internet. If you feel that you cannot do this, get someone else, a friend from another parish to do it for you and then post that video on YouTube, etc.

Let everyone see just how bad the sickness is and then maybe there will be a greater effort to cure it! If a person has cancer but does not think that it is as serious as it is or "not a big deal" they will not be vigilant in seeking treatment and fighting the cancer.

Take those videos of what your parish is doing for a "Thanksgiving Liturgy". Take the video of the "Children's Mass" on Christmas Eve with Santa Claus and the Happy Birthday Jesus cake. Take the videos of the Lenten General Absolution prayer service.

If we delight in beautiful video, images, and news of worldwide traditional Masses and fine liturgy that we have access to through the internet, especially recent stabilization in Papal liturgies, then, with eyes wide-open, we should also see and not shy away from wanting to expose and deal with the rot. Sadly, the what probably happens to still be the lived experience for most Catholics.

Anonymous said...

Pontiff Urges Practicing What You Preach

Says Laity Need to Be Coherent When It Comes to Politics

HOLY FATHER, BUT IF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE NOT TAUGHT THE TRUE FAITH AND TRUE TRADITION WHAT HOW CAN YOU EXPECT THE TO BE "COHERENT" IN POLITICS??????????

VATICAN CITY, NOV. 17, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI says laypeople are called to show the unity that should exist between faith and life, ,,,,
The Pope said this Saturday when he received participants in the 23rd plenary assembly of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, which began Thursday. The assembly was dedicated to a consideration of John Paul II's apostolic exhortation "Christifideles Laici," some 20 years after its publication.

As challenges for the future, the Holy Father stressed the need for greater and better formation, especially of young people, as well as greater "coherence of life."

"Every realm, circumstance and activity in which it is to be hoped that the unity between faith and life can shine, is entrusted to the responsibility of the lay faithful, moved by a desire to communicate the gift of encountering Christ and the certainty of the dignity of the human person," he said.

The Pontiff further contended that there is an urgent need for "evangelical formation and pastoral support of a new generation of committed Catholics in politics."

----------

Finally, the Pope mentioned the importance of the witness of young people and their formation and contact with the tradition of the Church, as manifested in World Youth Days.

"New generations," he said, "not only are the preferential recipients of the transmission and sharing of the Catholic tradition, but are also individuals who expect in their own heart proposals of truth and happiness, to be able to give Christian witness of them, as already occurs in an admirable way."

Anonymous said...

I don't believe that to attract youth to Holy Mass we should create a party or a rock concert for them.
I think it is wrong, and it is sacrilage for priests and cardinals to take part of this irreverent act during Holy Mass.
Priests should also not act so chummy with the young because what they actually need is good example and guidence.

aelred said...

they are clearly neocathecumens

the "cookie" is pain azime...

B. said...

I don't know why so many in the English-speaking world think of Cardinal Schönborn as a conservative.

He has supported pro-abortion politicians, and given one of them the order of St. Gregory.
He has said that he doesn't want to change the laws on abortion, because he doesn't want to punish women who are in trouble.
He openly opposes those, who pray in front of abortion clinics, he has allowed, that blessings are given to homosexual couples in the Cathedral of Vienna and he has allowed to have blasphemous pictures displayed in the diocesan museum.
When American donors threatened to stop giving money, he had one picture taken down, apologized to them and acted as if he had corrected the affair, while several other blasphemous pictures were still on display.

Anonymous said...

Who told them that this was relevant?

It's like watching an amateur version of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Not only is it a liturgical abomination, it is just plain tacky and weird, and if they think that young people will be drawn closer to Christ and the Church through that they're gonna be in for one heck of a shock.

Anonymous said...

Bitter disappointment in one thought to be an authentic agent of renewal.

Leadership lacking.

LeonG said...

"I am astonished that Cardinal Shonborn took part in this. I have met him personally and he is nothing like that."

It is truly astonishing anyone can pretend this on the Cardinal's behalf. Evidently, you do not know him well enough. To meet someone is not to know them. We know him by his actions.

jill said...

Commenter 'b.' has compiled the facts that show the Cardinal is not 'conservative'.
The blasphemous, disgusting, pornographic art exhibition at the Cathedral Museum was a mockery of Christ. Is artistic license more important than the risk of scandal? I don't think so!
Same with this Mass.
I would like to know what he wrote on the note that went heavenwards - tied to the balloon!

St. Rafael said...

How much vindication does the SSPX need? There are mounatins of evidence.

Anyone can see with their own eyes that you have a "conservative" cardinal wearing tie-dyed vestments holding invalid matter in his hands, in the form of a large leavened pita-like bread.

The Church has become rotten even at the highest levels. How many other scandal will people ignore every day?

Jordanes said...

Well, we don't know that it is invalid matter. Certainly illicit, but it would only be invalid matter if it had ingredients besides wheat and water.

Joe B said...

Such stomach-turning events are common on Saturdays or sometimes Sunday nights at 'teen masses'. Absolutely anything goes, and bishops refuse to impose discipline on them. If you've never been to one, well, don't. Just stop them where you can.

Long-Skirts said...

Fr. Stephen, o.f.m. said:

"ABOMINATION! DESOLATION!...
"...Then the flood came and they were all destroyed." The persecution is about to begin and the blood of true witnesses will give birth to the pure faith, to the true Church!"

Don't worry, Fr. Stephen there is great hope as many, many true Shepherds (H.E. Lefebvre & Castro De Meyer) preserved the True Faith and, speaking as the mother of 10 souls, we grow and are growing...

THE LILY
NO BURNING, TEARING,
SCOURGING SKIN.
IT'S PSYCHOLOGICAL,
ALL WITHIN.

NO ROTTING FLESH
OR PUTRID BLOOD
IT'S STERILE, CLEAN
NO RANCID CRUD

FOR BUTCHERED, TORTURED,
BOUND UP SKINS,
REVEALS THE TRUTHS
OF BISHOPS’ SINS.

THEY WANT IT NICE,
THEY WANT IT HUSHED,
WITH VEINS OF ICE
GOOD SOULS ARE CRUSHED.

THE SILENT COLD,
IS BETTER, YET,
FROZEN, SOLID,
CAN'T BEGET.

FOR MARTYRED BLOOD
REVEALS THE CHURCH,
BLIND SOULS SEE TRUTH
AND END THEIR SEARCH.

"WE CAN'T HAVE THAT!"
THE BISHOPS' SAY.
"SO LET'S IGNORE...
THEY'LL GO AWAY."

"ENLIGHTENED MEN,
DON'T SCOURGE THE SKIN.
ENLIGHTENED MEN,
KEEP BLOOD, WITHIN."

BUT THEY FORGOT...
THE WOMAN BLEEDS,
AND MONTHLY, MAKES
A BED FOR SEEDS.

WHERE "NICE" AND "HUSHED"
THEY'LL GROW TO MEN
AND SEIZE THE OARS
FROM WRISTS THAT BEND...

ON PETER'S BARK
WHERE BLOOD STILL FLOWS,
FROM WOMAN'S WOMB...
THE LILY GROWS!

Son of Trypho said...

I must admit that I found watching this bizarre - as an outsider I sincerely hope this doesn't represent Catholic worship in the usual sense?

Are they singing "shalom aleichem" at the beginning? This just strikes me as some sort of primitivist conceptualisation of the Mass (the big bread, the Jewish song) with things tacked on to appeal to youth (the balloons, coloured lights, rock music etc).

And, as a non-Catholic (technical Jew) isn't the Communion bread meant to be particularly precious after the transubstantiation takes place? If you believed that was Jesus incarnate (in some form) wouldn't it be particularly awful to consider that it would be highly likely that little crumbs of Jesus could fall on the ground and be trampled underfoot by these people?

Overall, I rate this as particularly crass and offensive to religious and intellectual sensibilities.

Anonymous said...

I was wondering why this post had so many comments so I decided to watch the clip.

Now that's the spirit of Vatican II in action! and no shortage of action either. we've got the baloons, the music, the disco lights. What more can we ask for?
I'm surprised he did the genuflection after the consecration!

Well the Motu Proprio should be used to counteract it.

Father Stephen, o.f.m. says said...

Yes, Son of Trypho!

As you may read it so in St John's Gospel in Chapter 6, that is exactly what Jesus gave us: His True Body, no longer ordinary bread, but HIMSELF. HE CAN DO IT! HE DOES IT AT EVERY HOLY MASS!
Yes, you are on the mark! That is why most of us here are scandalized to see what is going on still in supposedly "Catholic" houses of worship!
You are speaking as one of us, with a true Catholic spirit.
Have you considered to seek out a good and faithful Father, (rare today) to find out what Jesus brought for all men, He said FIRST for the Jews?
You may want to take a look at this classic book:
"Father Smith Instructs Jackson."
If you do find it a good guide, and have a question or two,
I can answers some also.

Jews make the best Catholics, The Blessed Virgin, the 12, St Paul and host of others! They find out how to become fully Jewish!
witness-2-on-earth@msn.com
Father Stephen, o.f.m.

Jordanes said...

Father John Zuhlsdorf has been asked by Erich Leitenberger, spokesman Cardinal Schönborn, to post the following official statement issued by the Cardinal's authority:

Some people have taken serious offense in the Holy Mass for young people which was celebrated by the Viennese Cardinal Christoph Schönborn on the 16th of November in Wolfsthal, a village close to the Austrian-Slovakian border.

In contrast to the presumption, due to the in many ways amateurish und unrealistic recorded broadcasting by Gloria TV, it must be clearly stated that in this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated.

The Eucharistic bread was unleavened and its shape strictly followed the shape which has been used in the Middle East since the 1st century. The “flat cake” is similar to that form used in Mossul in these days – this is the metropolis located at river Tigris where Christians still testify the truth of Jesus with their own blood.

Werner Pirkner, the spiritual councillor for the Holy Mass in Wolfsthal, and Stephan Bazalka, coordinator of the Catholic Youth, paid highest attention to the fact that when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor.

Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!


This addresses the concerns raised regarding illicit use of leavened bread and the scandal of probable sacrilege through careless handling of the Blessed Sacrament. It does not, however, say anything about the scandal of the balloons and discotheque music, which are also a form of sacrilege (in the sense of disrespect or misuse of holy things -- the liturgy is a very holy thing) though not as serious as profanation of the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.

Anonymous said...

Looked leavened to me!

Looked like pottery to me!

Looked like balloons to me!

Looked like a disco to me!

Looked illicit to me!

Dextimus said...

You can send an SMS to His Eminence...

http://breviarium.blogspot.com/2008/04/na-tac-nie-pac-kiedy-pusta-kiesa-wylij.html

Son of Trypho said...

The statement confirms my earlier suspicions. It was some kind of primitivist conceptualisation of the Mass - trying to drag in bits of Jewish/archaisms eg. the song, bread etc. A bad idea executed poorly.

I hate to be cynical but if the Cardinal wanted to express some solidarity with the Christians of Mosul he might have wanted to decry the anti-Christian violence conducted by Muslims against that community rather than use something resembling their bread and scandalise people who are not sure what it is because it is foreign to the western tradition...

Anonymous said...

"Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!"

Give me a break!

The Cardinal's explanation is insulting to the Mossul Christians who shed their blood for real.

I am to believe the Catholic faithful of Wolfsthal use middle eastern first century flat bread in their Eucharistic celebration? Is this some form of V2 inculturization (sp) of the mass? Mossul Syria is a long way from Austria.

Is the use of first century bread a reference to the imaginary primative form of worsip to be adopted by Catholics according to V2?

The video clearly showed communicants eating the bread bit by bit and not watching for crumbs. I guess their experts forgot to consider that...

More novelty, more errors.

Indeed lets pray for the Church and those shepards of our souls.

St. Rafael said...

Please Cardinal Schonborn tell me again how cameras fail to record reality. It seems the film somehow made up the tie-dye vestments you were wearing. It seems the ballons were also invented by the camera.

You can't fool the faithful anymore with you buffoonery.

Anonymous said...

N.B. The mouthpiece for H.E., who begged to be heard on Fr. Z's blog, wrote (see above comment) as follows: "when breaking the bread no tiny little piece of bread ever touched the floor."
Uhmmm...after consecration, It may look like bread, but It's really Jesus (as my three-year-old is fond of saying). Calling Dr. Freud...calling Dr. Freud.

Paul Haley said...

"Those who have dared, tempted by a fragmentary news coverage, to bring forward accusations against the archbishop of Vienna, may contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness. Let us pray all together for the Holy Church!"

So, it's the "fragmentary news coverage" that's the problem and not the balloons, the unacceptable music, the gyrations of the young people, the hand-clapping of the deacon and the overall lack of proper demeanor and reverence at the re-enactment of the Holy Sacrifice on the Cross. Egads, it boggles the mind.

We, who find this a betrayal of Our Lord by His friends must "contemplate, repent and ask God for his forgiveness?" Are the inmates running the asylum? I just wonder if the outrage over this debacle hasn't caused an knee-jerk reaction by those responsible, along the lines of "you're accusing us, how can this be?"

Let me tell you one thing, Your Eminence, this would never have happened at the Mass of my youth some 60 years ago -- it would have been inconceivable and considered the most outrageous of sacrileges. How times have changed, eh, Your Eminence? Submitted with due respect for your position but undeniable anger over what I have seen as opposed to what I was taught some 60 years ago.

Anonymous said...

Silliness beyond words.

If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck it is probably a duck.

This man is appointed by the Pope...and yet I/we are called to task for questioning the wisdom of the Pope?

I trust this concilliar mess about as far as I can spit.

How can neo cons question the SSPX about their 'obedience' when this kind of thing happens in front of our very eyes.

Anonymous said...

The "bread" maybe of Middle Eastern tradition. But I'm surprised that some people are so upset about it's use in this case.

If you know anything about Schonborn, you'd know that he has a tremendous background in the Byzantine rites, and that he hold faculties as head of both the Latin and Byzantine rites in Austria. As such, I'm not so surprised of it's use. In fact, I find that element particularly interesting academically.

PS - The music was OBVIOUSLY dubbed over the Eucharistic prayers.

Doctor, heal thyself. Clean up your own dioceses before you worry about Austria and Vienna.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, it is an assembly or exact reality?

Paul Haley said...

What would Pope Benedict XVI say about such matters?

On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call “a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture”; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the “hermeneutic of reform”, of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us. She is a subject which increases in time and develops, yet always remaining the same, the one subject of the journeying People of God.

This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.


We must be careful what we do in the Sacred Liturgy for it is not a ground for experimentation but the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass that we are charged with. My "Youth Mass" over 60 years ago was not a new fabrication but what Fr. Frederick Faber called "the most beautiful thing this side of heaven." We were not to be entertained or to inject ourselves into the sacred liturgy in an ostentatious manner but to reverently follow the actions and prayers of the priest on the altar. Would that the same be the case today.

Anonymous said...

If you know anything about Schonborn, you'd know that he has a tremendous background in the Byzantine rites, and that he hold faculties as head of both the Latin and Byzantine rites in Austria. As such, I'm not so surprised of it's use. In fact, I find that element particularly interesting academically.

Yeah. Because that's what this is. That's what the liturgists who planned this Mass were thinking of - ways to imitate Byzantine/Chaldean liturgical practice. Just like the Byzantines, that Mass. Can't see any difference at all. Right.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anon Academic,

I know nothing about Schonborn - just what I see.

What is also surprising is your remarks of acceptance and admonition to others.

Even IF the mid east bread was ok the mass was a travesty.

Defend the faith.

Anonymous said...

Dear Paul Haley,
Somehow the hermeneutics speech does not provide comfort and trust for me at this time.

Paul Haley said...

Anonymous said...

Dear Paul Haley,
Somehow the hermeneutics speech does not provide comfort and trust for me at this time.


It is the hermeneutic of rupture that allows such abuses while the hermeneutic of continuity prevents them. It is obvious, I think, that the holy father wants continuity with Tradition but the problem is some prelates go in the opposite direction. And, when he says that the abuses cause pain for him also, we have hope that he will act to remove them from the liturgy. We must continue to pray that he will do so and soon.

Terzio said...

Un horror: Un verdadero horror.

Si Schömborn es de los considerados "buenos", da miedo imaginar cómo estarán los "malos".

En serio: ¿Hasta donde llegará la enfermedad "litúrgico-católica"?

Salutem!

Anonymous said...

Dear Paul Haley,

Sorry, I just can't buy into the interpretation of continuity or rupture idea.

For sure the rupture is wrong but the continuity is called into question too.

I think that V2 can not be understood very well as a continuity of the Catholic faith. The two are dissimilar, there is a break, the continuity from the old to the new has been broken.

It's very creators called it a new creation, a rutpure. For me V2 is a recipe for sythesis not an organic development addressing our times.

HH Benedict XVI has stated his agenda right from the start of his pontificate, he is a liberal despite these current gestures.

Anonymous said...

This is positively weird not to mention so far from being reverent I can't even think of the word to describe it.

These clergy need to be held accountable by the faithful. Email the Vatican and demand some action!

KvK

Paul Haley said...

Anonymous (20 November, 2008 22:06) said...

Dear Paul Haley,

Sorry, I just can't buy into the interpretation of continuity or rupture idea.

I understand where you're coming from and I am only stating what I believe the pope means when he speaks as he does. Remember that he is a product of the council and he is all we have in the Chair of Peter right now. When he says continuity he means Tradition and when he says rupture he means abuse.

At the very least we should be glad he does see a difference between the two. I wanted to show what I believe he feels when he sees abuses such as the episode in Vienna. Of course, we haven't heard from him on this matter yet and who knows if we ever will?

Anonymous said...

Dear Paul Haley,
Your insights gave me pause to re-read the Motu Propio as published at the beginning of this thread.

I too am glad that Pope Benedict wants to get rid of the obvious abuses. I am very thankful for the Motu Propio.

As I understand the Motu Propio, Pope Benedict is saying that somewhere up the road the TLM and NO will be blended. This is worrisome to me.

The Pope thinks there is great value and holiness in V2 and the NO...I suppose he would since he helped create them.

I on the other hand have far less regard for V2 and the NO and do not see the two as one rite. It is unclear what the Pope has in mind for the future. I am a tad sceptical. I pray for hsi intentions according to God's will.

Paul Haley said...

Anonymous (24 November, 2008 03:01) said...

Dear Paul Haley,

As I understand the Motu Propio, Pope Benedict is saying that somewhere up the road the TLM and NO will be blended. This is worrisome to me.

The Pope thinks there is great value and holiness in V2 and the NO...I suppose he would since he helped create them.

I on the other hand have far less regard for V2 and the NO and do not see the two as one rite. It is unclear what the Pope has in mind for the future. I am a tad skeptical. I pray for his intentions according to God's will.

The big question is what choice do we have? We either work with the Vicar of Christ and try to convince him of the legitimacy of our arguments or we throw up our hands and become closet SVs. We can work with him, however, only if we are in union with him and God-willing that will happen for those now considered not in full communion. For this to happen the Holy Father must remove the juridical impediments that currently exist.

After that happens we must convince him that a blend of the two forms into one would be disastrous for the Church and bring not unity but fearsome disunity. There are many young people being brought up in traditional Catholic communities all over the world, knowing nothing but the traditional Mass and the faith that supports it and evolves from it. Like me, they will never give in to Modernism in practice and belief.

Decades ago I spoke with a bishop and related my impression that the modernists will just wait us old people out and then mandate the new mass and its attendant belief system. I said I believed the "indult" was merely a temporary measure designed to accomplish this. To my surprise he agreed!

This bishop was a product of the council just like the holy father. But the difference is the holy father in his motu proprio legitimized the TLM and said it was never abrogated. He also said what previous generations held as sacred remained sacred for us as well. In effect with a masterful stroke of the pen he removed the need for an "indult" altogether and legitimized the TLM in the Latin Rite and, in fact, gave it the "extraordinary" place over its ordinary cousin.

So, I think he knows that were he to try and change the TLM now along the lines of the NO he would be faced with enormous resistance and set back the cause of unity in the church to untold depths. My opinion for what's worth is he doesn't want this to happen. Can you imagine the fight this would cause? It boggles the mind.