Rorate Caeli

CAPITULATION
Pope's appointee bullied into submission in Austria
Update: Pope accepts request


The best papal nominee for an episcopal position in Austria in decades, Father Gerhard Wagner, has asked the Pope to withdraw his nomination as auxiliary bishop of Linz.

[AP] The national broadcaster ORF said Sunday the Rev. Gerhard Maria Wagner made the decision because of the controversy surrounding Pope Benedict XVI's promotion of him in Linz, Austria's second largest city.


The promotion of the conservative pastor sparked an outcry among Catholics who warned it could prompt people to leave the church.

ORF quotes the 54-year-old Wagner as saying: "Regarding the fierce criticism, I am praying and after consulting the diocesan bishop I have decided to ask the Holy Father in Rome to take back my promotion as auxiliary bishop."
________________________

[Catholic Church Cobservation] Linz –This Sunday evening, in connection with the controversial appointment of the vicar of Windischgarsten in Upper Austria, Maria Gerhard Wagner, as the Auxilliary Bishop of Linz, there has been an unexpected twist. Wagner has made a step backwards and requested the Holy See that his nomination should be withdrawn

Wagner has asked the Diocesan Bishop Ludwig Schwarz to send to the media a short statement. It reads: "Given the fierce criticism, I have been in prayer, and after consultation with the diocesan bishop came to the conclusion to ask the Holy Father in Rome to withdraw my nomination as Bishop of Linz."

No comment

The statement was made available to the Communications Office of the Diocese of Linz on Sunday evening. When asked, its director Ferdinand Kaineder said that there would be no further comment from Bishop Schwarz. Similarly, for the time being no further comments are planned. He pointed to the special meeting of the Austrian Bishops' Conference set for Monday in Vienna.

The danger of this move to the public perception of the Pope's authority is incalculable. Let us keep praying for the Holy Father.

UPDATE: It seems that the Holy Father has granted Wagner's request.

81 comments:

Anonymous said...

Are we going to see the Pearl Harbor (US side) of this pontificate ?

The cunning bomb launched by Bp Williamson, with the active complicity of secular anti-religious groups and probably some insiders in Rome who are bluntly opposed to Benedict XVI from the start, is now striking at full force the papacy. The most corrupt Churches (Austria and Germany) are leading a Blitzkrieg against the Ratzingerian hermeneutics of continuity and reform. In France, 2 bishops are also under attack.

John Paul II fought like a lion during years in support of Bp Haas (then in Chur). We can see today a total surrender, nearly without any fight, in a couple of weeks.
After the surrender in Florence (Italy), the rumor of a soft surrender for New York, the rebuke from Abp Ravasi endured stoïcally by the pope ... the wolves are getting nearer and nearer to the See of Peter.
Has Peter decided to stop the fight ? or are we living only this fatal night described in the Gospel ? Peter's life afterward was back to the fight for the Name of Jesus with heroïsm.
Let us pray for Peter who is in danger these days.

Alsaticus

readers may sign up the support to Benedict XVI (various languages) at :
http://www.soutienabenoitxvi.org/

Joe B said...

Do the consecration.

W. Schrift said...

Many holy priests have resisted the appointment to bishop. Let's pray for Fr. Wagner, and for the Holy Father.

Anonymous said...

More bitter fruits of vac II.

GCC Catholic said...

Could the Holy Father refuse to withdraw the nomination?

Brio910 said...

The Pope must order this priest to be ordained a bishop. He must now start to fight to ensure that papal authority and Catholic tradition win out over
tantamount rejection of the Catholic faith in these countries.

Brio910

Anonymous said...

This is outrageous. I agree the Pope must consecrate the world to Mary Immaculate.

skeeton said...

Sadly, the AP is already reporting that Pope Benedict has accepted Fr. Wagner's resignation.

Berni said...

This is an extremely worrying precedent. The liberals all over the world will see that if they shout enough, even an episcopal appointment already announced can be overturned. Total disaster.

The only way to redeem this is to make Wagner a bishop somewhere else, real quick.

Kevin said...

So nothing has changed since 1968. It's "Humane Vitae" all over again. The Pope proposes, the "Central Committee" of leftist Bishops disposes.

I'm the last one who should be telling the Pope what to do, but I would refuse the resignation and put the Austrian Bishop's Conference under interdict. This is open revolt. If Pope Benedict allows this to stand he might as well go raise flowers in his garden until the Lord calls him.

The battle lines are drawn for all to see. Please God, come and save your church!

Confiteor said...

The Pope has not yet accepted the request to withdraw the nomination. Let us pray that he does not.

"PICK UP YOUR RIFLE AND FIGHT, SOLDIER!"

The promotion of the conservative pastor sparked an outcry among Catholics who warned it could prompt people to leave the church.

Let them leave, they were never part of us.

Quietus said...

This is such a sad day. This gives so much encouragement to other liberal groups to stand up against nominations in all parts of the world. Sad sad sad!

This is a hugely wrong way to try to strengthen the church, because unity we can only get through true faith and filial submission to Peter. Not accepting the Pope's decision is the same as working against the Church of Christ. And that I do not like.

Very sad. And what happens in other Dioceses around the world. Will the Pope nominate good candidates there?

Let us pray for our beloved Holy Father, and for his aides (they seem to need a lot of prayers) and for all the enemies of the Church (in and outside of her boundaries).

Memorare, o piissima Virgo Maria...

Ma Tucker said...

It looks very bad but it may be a case of kicking the dust off your shoes. He was obviously not welcomed at all there. The situation must be very dark in Linz.

Anonymous said...

The faith in Austria is almost completely dead. The bishops are even worse than in France and Cardinal Shoenborn (popular more in the U.S.) is worthless. Other popes have had to bear crosses before but the hardest ones to bear are always the ones that your own children put upon your back.

Anonymous said...

This is terrible and sad. It really opened my eyes. I knew many disliked the Holy Father, but it turns out they truly hate him with a passion.

Phillip

crusader88 said...

What an unfortunate turn of events. But in the past, there have been many saints who were reluctant to accept their appointments. Our beloved pope should go ahead with this appointment.

Rick said...

In the end, the Pope is the Pope, and he must decide whether or not to fight.

All of his attempts to steer a course of "unity" have foundered.

He can either fight or he can preside over the surrender of the papacy.

His choice.

If he does not fight now, then may God have mercy on his soul.

If he does fight now, then may God have mercy on the souls of those who will follow him, that (possibly very small) group which will be seen to be Catholic.

Anonymous said...

Thsi is all the doing of CARDINAL SCHOENBORN.

He stirred up the issue in calling bishops and priests together to discuss the issue of the SSPX, Bishop Williamson, and the awesome Bishop Wagner.

It is because of Schonborn, and the liberals that this sad tragedy has occured.

Wagner is a great man, but he was a fool to fall into this trap. Asking the Pope to withdraw his nomination is EXACTLY what the Bishop of Linz, the senior priests, and the evil CARDINAL SCHOENBORN wanted.

Hopefully the Pope is not such a fool as to bow to this pressure.

LeonG said...

The logical conclusion to collegiality- bishops rule and the pope is a mere bishop amongst equals. Whoever still believes that the VCs changed nothing need their heads examined. There is no hermeneutic of continuity there - the pope is the head of the church on earth and there is an end to it.

We have here another problem too. We have seen the last three popes,not including John Paul I (RIP) back down on substantial issues, allowing a liberal free for all to follow. They continue in the mistaken belief that it is better to maintain some semblance of "unity" than grasp the nettle in order to demonstrate who makes the ultimate decision and who is finally responsible. What is happening is schismatic behaviour, no more and no less by bishops and priests whose only vocation is to sow discord and disaffection.

It is time for the Holy Father to stand up for The Faith and to desist from pandering to false unity. If they want to rebel and leave The Church let them go. Who wants a church full of reprobate modernist liberals and secularising materio-centric socialists infecting The Body of The Christ.

The sooner we revisit and revise the tainted bequest of Conciliarism the better. It reeks of protestantism.

New Catholic said...

Bellafontana, the noble scorpion, has acted again...

Anonymous said...

I am reminded by this of the Song of Roland, where Bishop Turpin commands the Christians, "For your penance, fight!" Louis

Anonymous said...

This is intolerable. Fr. Wagner should not have made this submission to these non-Catholic deans in the Diocee of Linz. What a shame; what a sham.

I suggest that Fr. Wagner be consecrated bishop and be given a place in the curia. In future, he should be put in charge of Austrian promotions in the Congregation for Bishops.

It seems as if the liberals in the Church are now screaming like the demons from hell who inspire them.

The Pope should send Fr. Wagner a public request, asking him to withdraw his request. What the hell is going on here? The man was not even appointed a diocesan bishop, only an auxiliary. Auxilaries have no real power. The reason they've screamed bloody murder is because it was the first step to something bigger, like becoming the next Bishop of Graz, which will become vacant in two or four years.

Notice how liberals have their way with the law or without it. If the law is on their side, they enforce it to the letter. If it is not, they scream until they get what they want anyway. They have achieved nothing but have emptied the Church. Liberal parishoners threatened to go over Wagner? Good grief! Pray that they go. They are not Catholic, just a cancer in the Mystical Body.

We are now seeing how H.H. has run up against a wall of opposition. The liberals overrule him on the S.S.P.X and now overrule him on Fr. Wagner. Who is the Vicar of Christ? Is it the Pope or is it a collectivity of deans in Linz? These people have to be crushed. If they are not, they will take over the Church entirely.

P.K.T.P.

Luiz said...

É um golpe visível do demônio na Igreja de Cristo! São Miguel Arcanjo, defendei-nos!

Hebdomadary said...

The liberals in the church will try as soon as possible to either kill Benedict or drive him from the Vatican. That is my prediction, so be prepared, and don't act surprised. It's all a part of being as innocent as lambs yet as wise as vipers. Know the nature of combining a divine comission with the worldly politics. It makes for unhappy realities. The realities we face will only be exacerbated if rank and file Catholics don't stand up and protest in front of their bishops. I do not say that the worst can be avoided without divine intervention, however I DO say that we will HELP SATAN to make the reality we inherit by our inaction and inertia. Faith PLUS WORKS equals the Church we will ultimately build. You can't have one without the other.

God save Pope Benedict XVI, and our Lady of Victories intercede for him.

Vatspy said...

The only reason he offered to withdraw is that Rome asked him to. Bellafontana had put the pressure on the Curia. Noble scorpion ain't a bad moniker, but what about Edelfäule?!

Anonymous said...

The Pope should now appoint Richard Williamson as the new Auxiliary Bishop of Linz. He's Catholic, unlike the clergy there, he's available, and his name also begins with a W. And while he likely would not convert many Jews to the Faith, that's better than not converting anyone at all, which is the record of the Austrian bishops. Moreover, Williamson cannot be blamed for emptying the churches, seminaries, and schools in Austria: he'd be the only bishop in the country who was not responsible for that.

While Williamson's remarks on the Holocaust might be outrageous or imprudent, one could say that they are less so than the positions taken by the Austrian bishops. Next to them, he is a model of sure faith and good behaviour.

P.K.T.P.

Ma Tucker said...

I really see no point in Fr Wagner staying. It is dead ground. Had he been welcomed even partially I'm sure he would have stuck out. He was sent to a town and they did not welcome him. It was right for him to be sent and it is right for him to shake the sand off his feet. Poor Linz, She will reap a Wagnerian Tsunami of Sodom and Gom. proportions as our Lord warned.

Anonymous said...

Hey, I've got another idea. Gerhard Wagner coudl be appointed Auxiliary Bishop in the Archdiocese of Vaduz, Liecthenstein, ruled by Archbishop Haas. What a statement that would be from the Holy Father!

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

"Austria and Germany are leading a Blitzkrieg against the Ratzingerian hermeneutics of continuity and reform..."

Hopefully putting back the communions rails into the churches will be part of that reform...
And bringing back communion on the tongue...
Also implementing Humanae Vitae in the Church...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Declaration

There is some work for Pope Benedict...

Some interesting story links on the family. Regards to RORATE CÆLI.

Pill inventor slams ... pill
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23468

Czech Cardinal, Europe is headed for Muslim future
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23453

New Book: The Age of Aging, demographics are Changing...
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23423

Demographic Winter Producer Encouraged by Statement...
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23353

Jürgen Habermas et l'Europe "postséculière"
http://www.missa.org/babillardnew/2008/12/26.html#a3814

New website prowomanprolife(dot)org

God Is a Problem, Sources Say: how secular newsrooms handle stories with a religious component
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2153257/posts

Louis XIV : Après moi le déluge.

Claude Ryan
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=108372#108372

Quebec parents pull students out of new class
http://angelqueen.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23244

Anonymous said...

Now is the time for His Holiness to regularised the S.S.P.X. If he backs down on Wagner AND on that, then we can conclude that the Church is being run by the unCatholic bishops of Germany and Austria. This is all turning into a war between a German Pope and German-speaking bishops. That's odd. The majority of Germans aren't even Catholic. But they are good at starting wars--and at losing them.

P.K.T.P.

Somerset '76 said...

Any softening people were hoping from Menzingen might have just gone out the window now.

The last thing Rome needed to do at this hour was give the SSPX a new reason to suspect that fortuitous times had not yet come after all.

Very sad.

Hebdomadary said...

On the other hand: we can pray for a furtherance of the global economic collapse. What numbers and physical resistance may not be able to do for us, economics may assist us with. Personally I place no value on money at all, and yet my faith is more strongly rooted (thanks be to God) than if I enjoyed the acceptance and patronage of the VatII prot-church.

However, if what we believe to be true is in fact true, that most in the modern church of convenience and relativist accomodation are only superficially attracted, they will lose both influence and attraction as their financial contribution to the church dwindles, and the financial robustness of mod-church diminishes.

The merest of speculations...

Anonymous said...

One day soon, (unfortunatly not Pope Benedict XVI), there will be a Pope who surprises the world and knocks all the liberal Cardinals and Bishops down.
There will be great wailing , whining, and howls of protest from the liberals and dissidents.
But this time, the Pope won't back down.
All the liberal bishops and Cardinals will be much older...Cardinal Schonborn will be nearly done.
But he and his clique will be disgraced and ruined by the actions of the Pope. Thousands will leave the Church to be Protestants, or to be nothing.
But the Pope will reign over a restored, smaller, but purified and traditional Catholic Church in Europe.
The Church will be rebuilt in much as it ws rebuilt in the Catholic-Counter Reformation.
Vatican II will be in large measure overturned. Those who cry in its' support will be in their 80's and 90's. Orders which support it will be nearly dead, replaced by SSPX type Orders to restore the Church.
Pope Benedict XVI means well, but he is too weak. He capitulated.
BAD MISTAKE , POPE BENEDICT.
But a Pope not too far off will be a Pope with a a long reign....long enough until Vatican II, the Novus Ordo and JP II are nothing but bad memories.
And much of what Benedict XVI tired to do now, will happen and stand firm.

Cal said...

3 points:

(1) I admire Wagner for his humility in offering his resignation. Many would not do that no matter what.

(2) Most reports are that the Austrian bishops were not consulted before his appointment; if so this is an organizational/institutional failing in the Congregation for Bishops, whether or not the Austrian bishops are liberal, conservative or moderate.

(3) Since the Pope has decided to accept the resignation and withdraw the appointment, it must be assumed that His Holiness himself thought better of it. True docile submission to the Petrine office I think demands less hysterics and more pragmatism.

Anonymous said...

This Fr. Wagner wasn't bullied into surrender; it was the Pope himself who was obviously bullied into surrender. He should have stood up to these miscreant losers.

If His Holiness does not regularise the S.S.P.X this coming Sunday, the Feast of the Chair of St. Peter, he will lose face completely. For one thing, a delay will allow these Austrian and German communists to build up opposition to the S.S.P.X with their little investigation. Once their friends in the press manage to blacken the Society entire, the Pope can forget reconciling the it.

In addition, the Society will now harden its position because it can see how this Pope is too pusillanimous to stand up to a bunch of failures in tiny Austria. These deans of Linz are generals in an army of crippled mice. The only thing they have ever achieved in life is the ruination of their circumscriptions. Were they branch managers in a company, they'd not only have been fired long ago, but they would also be living on the street, since nobody would hire them even to flip hamburgers. And these are the men this Pope fears?


Have faith, Your Holiness. If God is on your side, who can be against you?

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

The papacy is finished!

Martin said...

Yes, this is a disgrace.

However, I would not worry too much. In fact, I am not worrying at all.

The Novus Ordo church is a total failure, on all counts: evangelical, liturgical, moral, financial, etc.
It cannot be saved from within. It must complete is course towards complete failure. To the fruits you will know the tree.

Stick with the FSSPX for the next 20 years (at least).

MCITL said...

There is no reason to believe that our Holy Father will not do what is best for the Church in the end. He cares not for the opinions of fools and madmen.

One thing is certain: if reports of Wagner's comments in re: divine punishment through tsunamis and hurricanes are accurate, then Benedict will take that into account and may decide that the resignation is providential.

Our Lord and his loyal foot soldiers will win. Have no doubt.

This may be a long fight. Brace yourselves for a long dark night.

This is Christianity WITH the Cross - it's the real thing. Not for the weak or fainthearted...

Fr C

Anonymous said...

Now it may be the time for His Holiness Benedict XVI to look to the Orthodox Churches for an allied offensive. They may be in schism, but they are traditional an far from being protestant.

Long-Skirts said...

Bishop Wagner said:

"...and after consultation with the diocesan bishop came to the conclusion to ask the Holy Father in Rome to withdraw my nomination as Bishop of Linz."

Poor Bishop Wagner, The "Christ-deniers" (and I'm talkin' Catholic Clergy) must really have something bad on him. With Bishop Williamson nothing is hidden.


FAITH & BEGORRA

Faith and begorra,
They lit the menorah
The Bishops are sealing
His tomb.

While the Cardinals from Rhine
Laugh and sip Blood-less wine
For the Bride has
Cuckold the Groom!

Long-Skirts said...

Bishop Wagner said:

"...and after consultation with the diocesan bishop came to the conclusion to ask the Holy Father in Rome to withdraw my nomination as Bishop of Linz."

Poor Bishop Wagner, The "Christ-deniers" (and I'm talkin' Catholic Clergy) must really have something bad on him. With Bishop Williamson nothing is hidden.


FAITH & BEGORRA

Faith and begorra,
They lit the menorah
The Bishops are sealing
His tomb.

While the Cardinals from Rhine
Laugh and sip Blood-less wine
For the Bride has
Cuckold the Groom!

QuantaCura01 said...

trarikerA sign of things to come when the Holy Father will have to appoint a replacement for Cardinal Mahoney in Los Angeles. The leftists will go to war if his clone is not elevated to replace hime. In the next few years there will be several bishops of retirement age. Will the Holy Father help the faithful and appoint real men to be bishops or just send clones of what we not have. Pray for the Holy Father and pray for the faithful in California, we suffer with him

Anonymous said...

Strategy

There is another interpretation possible here for this disaster in Austria. It might be a faked victory to placate and distract the left. The idea with the faked victory strategy is to grant a loser a supposed victory in order to soften the blow from what's coming.

Old liberal hacks in the hierarchy are tired and most of them don't care about much any more, especially now that their failure is total. They only want to retire without losing face, by blaming the collapse on other factors. But they still have a fawning constituency to satisfy. These are lay liberals, mostly aged between 50 and 70. Some are older. These are the people who, to be fair, remained loyal to the Church hierarchy when its most asinine orders were issued in the 1960s and 1970s.

Now this firestorm we are seeing has come from just one source: the withdrawal of the censures of excommunication. It has made the libbies furious. They are foaming at the mouth in outrage and hatred, hate being one of the qualities which they all share. It is as if the Pope has sanctioned everything they have fought against for the last forty years. And the reason for this reversal--even more painful to contemplate--is the utter failure of their pathetic revolution, now revealed as truly an act of brainless clowns.

So they're a little testy. But no sooner has the Pope lifted the excommunications when he moves forward to regularise the S.S.P.X. Really, he has to do this while he still has the opportunity. The Brave New Church has no future, so he needs at least to restore a means to ensure the survival of the Traditional Catholic Church which will never die. From the Pope's point of view, that must at least be an option for the future.

But two blows in a row like this, and NewChurch will rebel. He'll have a revolt on his hands. So he needs to create some fake victories for them. The capitulation or expulsion of Williamson will be the first. He had to go anyway because he's wildly imprudent.

Next, he appoints an archconservative as an auxiliary bishop right in the most liberal Diocese in Austria, at Linz. It was a provocation designed to distract the liberals' attention away from the S.S.P.X. Really, not much is at stake here, since this is only an powerless *auxiliary* bishop anyway; it is only a threat against their futures, not their present rule. He can now lift Fr. Wagner out of that spiritual desert and put him in Rome, where he can be part of the counter-revolution.

So let them have their party. While they're still inflating balloons (a good symbol of their reforms: full of hot air), bang!, the Pope can regularise the Society.

Is this what's up? I don't know. I claim no secret knowledge. But it's one possible explanation. Remember one thing: unlike the deans of Linz, this Pope is no fool.

P.K.T.P.

pclaudel said...

Virtually all of you, including the moderators of this site, are kidding yourselves. Wagner is out because Benedict wants him out. Do the plain facts need to be painted blue for you to recognize them?

This is a pope who will press hard to get Fellay and Williamson and the other SSPX bishops, virtually the only true Catholics left in the episcopal ranks, to cave to the only authorities he recognizes as binding: Vatican II and Wiesenthal Center. But when it comes to heretics and schismatics and haters of the Cross and just plain scoundrels, he will twist like a pretzel to placate them.

Like another notable European, Robespierre, Benedict's motto seems to be "pas d'ennemis à gauche."

Anonymous said...

Don't worry, the Roman Pontiff is just going to exert his governance in another way that will make his point and put the liberals on notice. He may ordain this priest bishop and appoint him in the Vatican. Then, we'll see who's laughing. Christus Vincit! Chruistus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

alban said...

I have seldom read such nonsense by so many posters on a blog: branding the clergy of Austria as non-Catholic, suggesting the pope place the Austrian hierarchy under inderdict, laying this problem at the feet of so-called liberals or Bp Williamson, saying the pope must "order the priest to be ordained bishop" (thus making the episcopal ordination invalid). Do the people who post here actually know Catholic teaching?

What disturbs me most is that so many on this thread seem to think that the Pope is capable of being bullied or blind-sighted. (The same allegations were made against the John Paul II when he did things with which self-proclaimed orthodox Catholics disgreed.) This is an absolute insult against the Holy Father; he is quite capable of making his own decisions without being bullied or pressured by others - or have people here no faith in the pope? (and let's face it, Benedict is hardly likely to give in to pressure from the liberal rump, so get real folks).

Finally, let us also get clear that the pope is not infallible when it comes to episcopal appointments; the disasterous 2007nomination of the Communist-collaborator Stanislaw Wielgis to Warsaw (who resigned just 2 hours before his installation) is a perfect example. According to the rantings of Anonymous (I just hate it when people don't have the guts to name themselves) Cardinal
Schoenborn is "useless", so there is another example of how (in the mind of Anonymous)the pope can make a mistake...oh, let's not forget Schoeborn's orthodox predecessor (Groer)who was judged to have been sexually inappropriate with seminarians and thus retired to a monastery; another mistake.

So, if the pope can make a mistake with Schoenborn, Wieglis and Groer could not another have been made regarding Fr Wagner? Fr. Wagner's comments that God had deliberately destroyed New Orleans because of the behaviour of some of its citizens smacks of fundamentalist Protestantism and is not - repeat not - Catholic teaching. If God were to engage in such cruel acts, we are then faced with some questions which I challenge any of those posting here to explain:

If God did indeed punish N.O. because of the behaviour of some of its people then:

1) Why were the innocent of that city also punished?
2) Why has God NOT punished places such as London, New York, Rio de Janero, Los Angeles, Rome (where the vast majority do not bother to attend Mass) - or even the atheistic Moscow or Beijing? God could certainly make a point by destroying the non-church-going denizens of Rome or send a message to Putin by levelling Moscow.
3) What had the people of Indonesia done to justify being hit by a tsunami 2 years ago and what have the poor of Africa done to deserve "God's punishment" of HIV/AIDS?
4) Why are innocent children born with horrendous deformities and diseases; what have they done to deserve "God's punishment"?

NO! God does not punish in this manner; that is the thinking of fundamentalist Protestantism which comes from the Old Testament era when people thought that God rewarded/punished people for seven generations according to the deeds of a parent. Jesus totally dismissed these ideas when He cured the man born blind (John ch.9). Jesus also said that "God allows the sun to shine on the wicked well as the good and the rain to fall on those who are good as well as those who are evil."

By making the comments he did regarding Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans, Fr Wagner expressed Protestant, rather than Catholic, teaching; he was right to decline ordination to the episcopate.

Anonymous said...

Oh how I miss the days when a pope would place the entire diocese under interdict for this kind of odious rebellion.

Jusztinián G. Rathkaj said...

The affair surrounding the appointment of Rev. erhard Maria Wagner makes two critical things apparent:
; the complete powerlessness of the papacy after 40 years of permanent destruction. The roman pontiff is not even capable to push through his candidate to a minor office in a completly unimportant diocese of a completely unimportant country.

; the schizophrenic tendencies of "the vatican" itself, who without pause laments relaivism, evaporation of the faith in europe etc. Now there is one like Rev. Wagner, sincere orthodox in his priesthood, completely loyal to the magisterium and the pontiff but exactly these merits make him unwearable for any higher office in the church.

maybe one day not far away in the face of the continual selfdestruction of the Roman apostolic church one will have to join the Patriarchate of Moscow or any other eastern church to remain catholic.

Anonymous said...

Yes, that's the way to do it. If the people don't like the newly nominated bishop then threaten to either cut the stipend or to leave the church. I don't see why (like the early church) bishops aren't appointed locally.

Jamie

Anonymous said...

Any ideas on what his contact is through email? I think we should write to him so as to persuade him to not withdraw. We need to tell him with great support and encouragement to take the position as the Holy Father had asked him. In light of recent events the degree of division in the Church's hierarchy has been made manifests especially opposition to the Holy Father. With this in mind we need to tell him that The Holy Father and the Church needs him now more than ever, for the Holy Father is deficient in support from his brethren (Bishops) and sad to say Catholics.

Stanislaw Wojtiech, Stanislawów, Ukraine said...

@First comment:

There was nothing "cunning" about the "bomb" "launched by" Swedish media, and not by Bp. Williamson. It is wrong to assert Williamson intended to "detonate a bomb".

As the physical Body of Jesus Christ was crucified in 33 A.D. by the same forces of pagan imperial secular authority, Jewish unbelieving leaders, sympathizers of criminals (like Barrabas), likewise the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church, will be crucified. But crucified unto glory. The Church will never disappear totally until the end of time.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Alban. A lot of comments here verge on paranoia, even after taking the hyperbole into account. To the extent that Fr Wagner suggested that Katrina was God’s punishment on New Orleans for sin in the city, this does smack of fundamentalist Protestantism. Further, it’s poor thinking and, at the very least, exceedingly poorly worded. Such imprudence does not have a place in a position of authority, and it is important that the orthodox self-police this kind of thing. Circling the wagons to win a battle but lose a war is not a good idea. Same with Williamson—having orthodox theology is not a license to be excused for such statements. In the long run, orthodoxy will be strengthened by having its sails trimmed when called for, along with the heterodox.

M.A. said...

Alban, you are the one not thinking like a Catholic.

Re: punishments and sufferings.

1.) First of all, the greatest sufferings on this earth are those sufferings inflicted on others by their fellow man, not by God. God in his goodness limits evil, but nonetheless, He does permit it because of our free will.

2.) The only innocent creature not deserving of punishments for sin was our Blessed Mother. All the rest of us deserve punishment; even the newborn infants who, by virtue of original sin merit only hell.

3.) There are physical punishments, but none are as terrible a punishment for sin, as spiritual chastisements. In a nutshell, this is the most plausible explanation for the apostasy in which we find ourselves. We are being punish BIG TIME, because God is angry with His people.

God doesn't punish?? HA!

Father Wagner understands. I expect he will be given a more authoritative position elsewhere in the near future.

Anonymous said...

THE PROBLEM IS COLLEGIALLY.
ANOTHER BITTER FRUIT OF VAC.II

Jordanes said...

To the extent that Fr Wagner suggested that Katrina was God’s punishment on New Orleans for sin in the city, this does smack of fundamentalist Protestantism.

It also “smacks” of orthodox Catholicism. Prescinding from Alban’s other remarks, his claim that it is not Catholic teaching is simply erroneous. The Old and New Testaments are filled with that kind of language, and many, many saints have spoken similarly. Are we to accuse them of teaching Protestant heresy as well? Remember St. Paul telling the Corinthians that the reason many of them had become sick and had died is because of their receiving Holy Communion unworthily? And even Our Lord did not deny that the men who died in the collapse of the tower of Siloam and the Galilaeans massacred by Pilate were punished for their sins: He merely warned us that they weren’t worse sinners than the rest of us, and that if we do not repent the same kind of thing will happen to us. There is a real sense in which natural disasters are caused by human sin, which attacks the union of the Creation with the Creator who upholds it and keeps all things in order.

If God did indeed punish N.O. because of the behaviour of some of its people then:

Or rather, because of the behavior of most of its people . . .

1) Why were the innocent of that city also punished?

How do we know they were?

2) Why has God NOT punished places such as London, New York, Rio de Janero, Los Angeles, Rome (where the vast majority do not bother to attend Mass) - or even the atheistic Moscow or Beijing?

How do you know He hasn’t, or won’t?

3) What had the people of Indonesia done to justify being hit by a tsunami 2 years ago and what have the poor of Africa done to deserve "God's punishment" of HIV/AIDS?

All have sinned: if we are to look at only our own merits, there is no doubt that we all deserve far worse than being hit by a tsunami or contracting AIDS, but God is merciful and does not give us what we truly deserve.

4) Why are innocent children born with horrendous deformities and diseases; what have they done to deserve "God's punishment"?

What have they done to deserve inheriting original sin?

NO! God does not punish in this manner; that is the thinking of fundamentalist Protestantism which comes from the Old Testament era when people thought that God rewarded/punished people for seven generations according to the deeds of a parent.

Actually the Ten Commandments say God visits the iniquity of the fathers on the children unto the third and fourth generation, not the seventh generation. And thus, it isn’t just people believing God did that, but the divinely inspired writer is quoting God Himself as saying that’s what He does, or did.

Jesus totally dismissed these ideas when He cured the man born blind (John ch. 9).

Just because He said one man’s affliction was not punishment for his sin or the sin of his parents doesn’t mean afflictions are never punishment for sin.

Jesus also said that "God allows the sun to shine on the wicked well as the good and the rain to fall on those who are good as well as those who are evil."

Yes, and as He send those blessings on both the righteous and the wicked, so both the righteous and the wicked suffer the consequences of human sin: the former as redemptive and potentially salvific and the latter as retributive and penal.

Anonymous said...

I would stand with the SSPX and it's bishops INCLUDING Williamson, before I would acknowledge the low-life debauched crowd of Vatican II Bishops in the Vatican, in France, Austria, or anywhere else.

What happened to Wagner is a disgrace. Orchestrated by the liberals and dissidents.
The Pope caved in.

No surprise.

Anonymous said...

Maybe now we can get the Pope to allow the spirit of Vatican II inside the Vatican.

Let us cheer for a more open church!

This is the best news a progressive Catholic heard in months.

prof. basto said...

Fr. Wagner was not yet consecrated. Could he be forced to accept Episcopal Consecration, given that it is a Sacrament?

In other words, can someone receive Holy Orders against their will? Or, more generally, can be forced to accept a Sacrament that one does not want to receive?

I believe the answer to be negative. And so, I fail to see a blow to the Pope's authority.

Nevertheless, no Papal appointee should be forced to refuse an office by internal ecclesiastical pressure, and the Pope should have insisted --- or should insist --- with Father Wagner that He wants Father Wagner to reconsider his request and accept the promotion.

Catholic Observer said...

It is possible that Katrina was divine retribution but it is somewhat unlikely given that the most iniquitous part of the city, the French Quarter, was barely touched by the flooding. And wouldn't San Fran be a more likely target for God's vengeance?

Peter said...

3) What had the people of Indonesia done to justify being hit by a tsunami 2 years ago and what have the poor of Africa done to deserve "God's punishment" of HIV/AIDS?

Indonesia, Thailand etc. are countries where you can find tremendous sexual impurity, starting with paedophilic tourism and sodomy. Rich degenerates from all over the world go there to commit impurity with young people. Prostitutes are cheap there.

Africa is a continent full of shamans, magicians, witch-doctors and hideous "religions".

If no one told you that, I'll tell you: God has a very very bad opinion about such things. Believe me.

Anonymous said...

Juzstinian,

The separated Eastern Churches are neither truly Orthodox nor truly Catholic. I would warn against such suggestions.

-Garrett

Anonymous said...

Jacinta was worrying out loud to Lucy: "We must pray for the Pope. I saw him surrouned by a jeering crowd of people and he was praying and weeping."

"Hush!", said Lucy. "Don't you see that's part of the secret?"

Anonymous said...

M.A. and Jordanes are those who are obviously correct on the physical punishment for sin. The Church teaches that sin does damage to the objective order designed by God. Scripture itself supports the contention that correction can come in the form of physical retribution. This does not mean that every hurricane comes for sin. But some certainly can. Remember our Lord's saying that a certain cripple was not crippled owing to his sin but to affort Jesus an opportunity to show Gods' mercy? Well, that also implies that some suffering on this earth IS owing to sin; otherwise, our Lord would have gone further in his statement. But this is theology 101, which Alban might learn. As Jordanes rightly says, this is the traditional Catholic position and not just some Pentecostal position.

On pclaudel's comments: Of course this Pope wanted Wagner. Had he not wanted him, he would never have appointed him in the first place. Benedict XVI (which is his correct name: he is NEVER 'Pope Benedict') is not obtuse. John Paul II also wanted Haas in Chur.

It is simplistic simply to allege that Benedict XVI is a Modernist radical. The world is seldom so simple. Most people are not entirely this or that, and people do change their minds over time. That is a sound view. Benedict XVI is a 'conservative' who is moving more and more in the traditional direction. On the other hand, he does clearly hold to some of the philosophies which made Vatican II possible; he does not think like a Thomist or like a traditional Catholic. I opine that he's probably changed his mind on some things but feels that it would undermine his authority to admit this. I would not call our Pope either a liberal or a traditionalist. He is somewhere in between but is much closer to us today than to the liberal camp.

We need to be realistic about outcomes. This Pope hopes to reconcile the S.S.P.X by 'allowing' them to hold their views and their interpretation of Vatican II but without imposing that interpretation on the rest of the Church--at least for a few decades to come. At the least, he needs to delay imposing a Society interpretation on others; at most, he favours never imposing it but nevertheless allowing it as a permanent solution. We can compare this strategy with what was done with the Feeneyites, who are allowed to hold their views but these are not imposed (I'm thinking of the people in the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart).

The Society will not accept a mere allowance of its views: it wants to impose them on all. As Bishop Tissier de Mallerais has recently asserted: it wants to convert Rome.

The Pope cannot politically afford to let the Society have its way, at least not in the foreseeable future. So he will find ways to delay such questions. Rome moves in centuries.

Peter Karl T. Perkins
(P.K.T.P.)

Anonymous said...

On Catholic Observer's Comments:

These are a classic example of trying to read into the divine mind. God disposes in accordance with the knowledge we do not have. It is reasonable to suppose that suffering is normally connected to sin, not always to those who have committed it. In the same way, the prayers of the monks and nuns every day alleviates the punishment which otherwise would come: their prayers and fastings and alms also affect the objective order.

If New Orleans was hit, it was probably hit for its sins. But that does not mean that was must limit God's action and direct that he must hit San Francisco in the same way or at the same time, as if we were commanding Him. Let's leave that to God and concentrate on dealing with our own sins. And yet suffering certainly is a warning of what is to come for everyone who sins. God is just and returns a just punishment for every sin, either here or hereafter or both.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

On Professor Basto's comments:

Come, come. Perhaps someone here has made an error about consecration to the episcopate. Obviously nobody can be forced to accept reception into a Holy Order. But we all know very well here that pressure was exerted. That is reasonable to suppose. Consider that there are some 3,000 dioceses and another 2,000 or so auxiliary bishops. What is the chance that this particular bishop refused the episcopate when this just so happened to follow a firestorm of protest?

Also, as far as I know, what Fr. Wagner refused was not episcopal consecration per se but appointment as ordinary in a diocese. We shan't know that he refused episcopal elevation unless the Pope offers him another episcopal appointment and he refuses that as well.

Yes, we must suppose that Fr. Wagner refused the position because his pastoral work would have been impeded by local reaction. But the fact that there was such reaction in the first place demonstrates a lack of trust of the Holy Father in the local clergy. If they do not trust His Holiness's judgement, then it is they who should offer to resign.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

This is the complete breakdown of the Papacy, that shot itself in the foot with VII Collegiallity of Bishops. For N.O. Catholics or new Catholics that did not know the Catholic Church before 1962, it does not seem scandalous that the Pope backtracks and apologizes for appointments or declarations. After the abject asking of forgiveness of JPII for presumptive errors of the Catholic Church, any pusillanimous showing by the present Pope is considered as normal, given the absolute show of weakness of ALL CONCILIAR POPES.
For the record, the Pope, quite as his Master of Whom he is Vicar, never apologizes, never clarifies, never asks forgiveness. An authentic Pope never stoops to no one, either temporal or spiritual power, be it the United Nations, the ADL, the College of Bishops or anyone.
Let's hope against all hope, that the SSPX may persevere until the end, when the Real Catholic Church will reappear, and Vatican II will be laid to rest 100 ft. below the surface.
Charles Dupuy

prof. basto said...

Dear P. K. T. P.,

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough to make myself understood.

I do not doubt that Fr. Wagner's hand was forced, and that he suffered undue and illegitimate pressure that led him to ask for the cancellation of his promotion.

When I wrote what I wrote in my previous comment, I was just responding to those posters who wanted the Pope to "force" or to "command" Fr. Wagner to accept the promotion even if against his will.

Of course I think - as I stated in the final part of my last comment - that the Pope should insist with Fr. Wagner that he accpet the promotion.

But, a Sacrament being involved, I think insist is all that the Pope can do. He cannot command someone to accept Holy Orders that one does not want to receive.

That's why it is not the Pope's authority that is at stake. The pope wasn't the one who backed down. His appointee is the one who gave up.

Jordanes said...

Charles Dupuy said: This is the complete breakdown of the Papacy, that shot itself in the foot with VII Collegiallity of Bishops.

“Complete breakdown”? That’s a hyperbole for sure.

For N.O. Catholics or new Catholics that did not know the Catholic Church before 1962, it does not seem scandalous that the Pope backtracks and apologizes for appointments or declarations.

Sometimes a papal backtrack or apology causes scandal, sometimes it causes scandal when the pope doesn’t backtrack or apologise. Episcopal appointments are not protected by the charism of infallibility, nor is the pope impeccable.

In addition, I think the historical record has far more than one example of a papal nominee to a bishopric being withdrawn in the face of opposition or pressure.

After the abject asking of forgiveness of JPII for presumptive errors of the Catholic Church, any pusillanimous showing by the present Pope is considered as normal, given the absolute show of weakness of ALL CONCILIAR POPES.

History shows many weak popes. It’s not just a post-Vatican II phenomenon.

For the record, the Pope, quite as his Master of Whom he is Vicar, never apologizes, never clarifies, never asks forgiveness.

So being pope means never having to say you’re sorry?

An authentic Pope never stoops to no one, either temporal or spiritual power, be it the United Nations, the ADL, the College of Bishops or anyone.

For several centuries it was accepted practice that a pope was not properly, lawfully installed until the Emperor had approved his election (there were several papal interregna when for various reasons the Emperor’s approval of the papal election was delayed for months or even more than a year). That, of course, was most improper – but one can hardly reason that the See of St. Peter was vacant for all those centuries.

Anonymous said...

Dupuy, for most of the Church's history, the monarch had an overwhelming influence on appointments to the sees in his state.

In any event, Benedict is not withdrawing orthodoxy from the see by requesting Fr Wagner's withdrawal. He may instead simply be implying that there is another orthodox cleric better suited to the position than Fr Wagner.

Anonymous said...

Dear Professor Basto:

I think it reasonable to suppose that the Pope, at some point, asked Fr. Wagner to offer his resignation (just as Wielgus was requested to offer his by Cardinal Re, something we learnt from a leak). I don't think that Fr. Wagner would make such a public request without asking privately first. The Pope would not want a surprise and I don't think that Father Wagner would give him one.

Public exchanges of offers are made for diplomatic reasons, so that the Pope will not lose face. But, let's be honest, it is the Pope who has backed down here. First, he made the appointment. Then, after an outcry led by his old friend, Cardinal Schönborn, the Congregation for Bishops must have contacted Fr. Wagner and suggested that he offer to resign. Hence, once he complied, the Pope accepted instantly. That's because the Pope knew what was coming in advance: he knew because it's what he asked for.

So I do think that H.H. backed down, even if this is not provable.

The question is whether or not this is a 'false victory' given to the liberals to soften a blow to come. Perhaps I am too devious in that analysis but it makes sense to me: if you want to avoid a revolt, you give your opponent something to crow about and then the other shoe drops.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Dear Professor Basto:

I suggest that Fr. Wagner offered to resign because the Pope, through the Congregation of Bishops, asked him to resign. He would not present the Pope with a surprise. These public exchanges of offers are normally preceded by private suggestions. This is standard diplomatic procedure designed to limit embarrassment.

The Pope appointed him and then a firestorm started, led by the Pope's old friend, Cardinal Schönborn. This was an embarrassment to the Holy See. As a result, I suggest that the Pope asked Cardinal Re to contact Wagner privately and request that he offer his resignation.

Wagner was already being pressured to do this by his Bishop and by many others. But I think that he did not make the offer until Rome supported the move. Hence, once he made the offer, the Pope accepted it instantly, as he knew exactly when it would come.

Owing to a leak, we know that the same process was followed in the case of Wielgus. He only offered to resign *after* Cardinal Re privately asked him to make such an offer.

This was all done in order to limit the damage done to papal authority. But it was the Pope who backed down because it was the Pope who, I suggest, privately asked Wagner to offer his resignation, thereby reversing his position.

The real question is whether or not this Wagner affair is really a 'false victory' to liberals; that is, whether it is a bone thrown to the liberals before the other shoe drops. If you want to overcome implacable opposition, one strategy is to give your opponents a little victory to crow about before defeating them on something more important. This helps your opponents to save face because then they can say that they lost one thing but gained another. Again, it's all about saving face. Perhaps I am indulging in wishful thinking here. We shall see.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

To Prof. Basto:

I apologise for two posts on one subject. I had thought that the first one failed to go through. I'm hopeless when it comes to all these damned computers.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Also implementing Humanae Vitae in the Church...

not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Declaration

but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement

prof. basto said...

Dear P. K. T. P., New Catholic, or anyone who has information,

Please, can anyone confirm that the Pope has voided this promotion? Unlike what happened during the Wielgus affair, there was no notice in the Bulletin of the Holy See Press Office regarding the withdrawal of this appointment.

So, perhaps the cancellation is not yet a done deal?

prof. basto said...

Tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam.

Without that foundation, we are lost. Without that foundation, we are not Catholics.

Let us Pray for Pope Benedict.

Mary Most Holy, Mother of the Church, intercede for him.

St. Joseph, Patron of the universal Church, pray for him.

St. Michael, pray for him.

Sts. Peter and Paul, pray for him.

All saints of God, intercede for him.

benedictus said...

prof. basto,

As far as I can tell the acceptance of the resignation is still not official. Kath.net is reporting that the Vatican is still supportive of Fr. Wagner and that he can rescind his resignation at any time. Perhaps this is why there has not been an announcement in the press bulletin.

In particular see:
http://tinyurl.com/cgmjat

Anonymous said...

To Jordanes:
"So being a Pope means never having to say you'r sorry"...
When have you read in the Scripture that our Lord said "He was sorry"? On the contrary when one of the servans of Caiphas slapped Him in the face he responded humbly but in a dignified way: "If I spake wrong show me the evil, but if a spake well, why do you hurt Me?
This might be a good lead for the Holy Father to answer his detractors: if he acted wrongly, show the faulty deed, and if not, stop whining.
Charles

Anonymous said...

To Jordanes:
"So being a Pope means never having to say you'r sorry"...
When have you read in the Scripture that our Lord said "He was sorry"? On the contrary when one of the servans of Caiphas slapped Him in the face he responded humbly but in a dignified way: "If I spake wrong show me the evil, but if a spake well, why do you hurt Me?
This might be a good lead for the Holy Father to answer his detractors: if he acted wrongly, show the faulty deed, and if not, stop whining.
Charles

Anonymous said...

Quite so, there is no notice on the Bulletin of the Holy See Press Office. How odd. This was reported as a done deal here. I wonder what is going on?

I've also noticed that there were no appointments announced this morning. I wonder if the Holy See is giving this matter priority attention right now.

P.K.T.P.

prof. basto said...

If Fr. Wagner's request for the withdrawal of his promotion has not yet been granted, I wonder, given that he was appointed, if he is still bound to receive the Episcopal Consacration in the timeframe set by canon 379 if his promotion is not rescinded by then.

Canon 379 states:

Can. 379 Unless he is prevented by a legitimate impediment, whoever has been promoted to the episcopacy must receive episcopal consecration within three months from the receipt of the apostolic letter and before he takes possession of his office.

What is more, one has to suppose that Fr. Wagner had consented to his promotion before it was made public, so I wonder if his decision to ask for the cancellation of his promotion amounts to a resignation. If so, then wouldn't the following canons apply?

Can. 187 Anyone responsible for oneself (sui compos) can resign from an ecclesiastical office for a just cause.

Can. 188 A resignation made out of grave fear that is inflicted unjustly or out of malice, substantial error, or simony is invalid by the law itself.

Can. 189 §1. To be valid, a resignation, whether it requires acceptance or not, must be made to the authority to whom it pertains to make provision of the office in question; this must be done either in writing, or orally in the presence of two witnesses.

§2. The authority is not to accept a resignation which is not based on a just and proportionate cause.

§3. A resignation which requires acceptance lacks all force if it is not accepted within three months ; one which does not require acceptance takes effect when it has been communicated by the one resigning according to the norm of law.

§4. A resignation can be revoked by the one resigning as long as it has not taken effect ; once it has taken effect it cannot be revoked, but the one who resigned can obtain the office by some other title.

Anonymous said...

the rumor of a soft surrender for New York
What could this possibly mean?
If there is any truth in this rumor, who would the Pope's first choice have been, I wonder?