Rorate Caeli

The Journeys of the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer


Mass over the tomb of St. Philip Neri


1) The blog of the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer has additional posts up on the just-concluded Roman pilgrimage of Fr. Michael Mary and five FSSR seminarians:

Saints Peter and Paul

Saint Philip Neri


The Basilica and Catacombs of Saint Sebastian

2) Inside the Vatican article: F.SS.R still "in no man's land"; but no regrets over reconciliation with Rome.

A journey of a different sort is discussed in the latest newsflash of Inside the Vatican (Letter from Rome #10: 'Totally Alone.'), which has a long article on the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, touching on the details of their daily rule of life as well as the long process of regularization with Rome.
Excerpts:
Father Michael Maria (photo), 55, born in New Zealand, and Brother Magdala Maria, 29, born in Sydney, Australia, but descended from one of the kings of Samoa, were for many years members of the Society of St. Pius X.


However, two years ago, after Pope Benedict published his motu proprio on the liturgy, Summorum Pontificum (July 7, 2007), the two, and several of their friends, decided to leave the Society and try to return to full communion with Rome.

They have hoped for many months that their "assimilation" into the Church might take place quickly, but it has not yet occurred.

"We are still in no man's land," Father Michael told me. "We're not incardinated anywhere, though we have received faculties to hear confessions from our local bishop in Scotland."
***
... two years ago, Father Michael decided that Pope Benedict's gesture in permitting wider use of the old liturgy compelled him to respond. He decided to seek a way to return to full union with Rome.

"We have drawn up a contitution for an order called Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, and we have presented it to the Ecclesia Dei Commission for approval," Father Michael said. "We have been hoping against hope that it would be accepted quickly, perhaps before Cardinal (Dario) Castrillon-Hoyos retires on July 4..."

"But that is only three days away..." I said.

"I know," Father Michael said. "We are losing hope. But we haven't given up."
***
"What is your daily life like on the island?" I asked.

"We rise at 4:55 a.m.," Father Michael said. "We wash and dress and at 5:25 a.m there is a bell to go to the chapel. There we spend 30 minutes in mental prayer, and then we celebrate Mass at 6 a.m. according to the old rite, in Latin. After Mass we have a quarter hour of Thanksgiving. At 7 a.m. we have breakfast...
... At 7:30, we pray a rosary in the chapel. At 8 a.m., we pray the hours, Prime and Terce, according to the 1962 Breviary. From 8:30 to 12:30, we work. We have a farm, and we are still doing lots of construction. At 12:30 a bell rings, and we gather in the chapel for Sext and None, as well as a particular examen of conscience, and a litany to Our Lady. At 1 we eat lunch in silence while an inspirational reading is read. At 1:30 we have an hour of recreation, starting with washing the dishes, then talking in the common room. From 2:30 to 5:30 we have a little silence in honor of Our Lord's three hours on the cross. We include in this time a half hour of mental prayer, a half hour of spiritual reading, and 15 minutes of Eucharistic adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. At 5:30 we say Vespers and Compline and spend time in mental prayer meditating on the Passion of Our Lord. At 6 p.m. we have supper followed by 1 hour of recreation. From 7:30 to 8 p.m. we have night prayer, and from 8 to 9 we have free time. At 9 p.m. we have lights out."
***
"I have been attacked harshly by many in the Society since I left," Father Michael said. "But I have no regrets. I want nothing more than to be in union with the Holy Father, and to serve him, as the Vicar of Christ."
(NB: It is, of course, incorrect to refer to the former Transalpine Redemptorists as having been "members of the Society of St. Pius X.")

38 comments:

Prodinoscopus said...

Fr. Michael Mary is a good and holy priest, and an immensely kind and decent man. I have always supported his decision to seek reconciliation with Rome. However, I cannot share his unreserved adulation for the Holy Father, especially not after the recent papal trip to the Holy Land, which I found so appalling at many levels.

I refer readers to DICI #196 for a respectful yet very critical analysis of the Pope's inter-religious agenda. I feel that the approach of Bishop Fellay combines respect for the Pope with truth-telling in the right measure.

Anonymous said...

I still believe that the Redeptorists were too hasty in reconciling with Rome and should have followed the same path as the Society. However, I am also against certain followers of SSPX who continually critize and speak badly of the Redeptorists. I wish them all the best! God Bless!

Neal said...

Is it not incorrect to refer to them as Redemptorists? I thought the larger organization was not in favour of subsuming them. (Of course, the article refers to them as "Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer" only.)

Anonymous said...

It stikes me that since the F.SS R are struggling and should they recant their recent decision to align with Rome then the fallout will not bode well for reconciling other traditional groups. I pray Rome acts quickly for her faithful Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer.

Anonymous said...

Regardless of the slow as molasses wheels of Rome, yet another sign (along with many others, clergy and faithful) that, yes, Virginia, there is life after the SSPX who have told the good folks of their flocks for 40 years, that there is not, to not trust Rome or other Catholics not of their fold.

Paul Haley said...

It brings my blood to a boil to learn how traditional nuns and priests have been marginalized, ostracized and persecuted for standing fast for Tradition. I can tell you without any reservation whatsoever that I will fight such intolerance and persecution with every fiber of my being and I will defend those being persecuted with my life if necessary.

The modernists, of course, will deny that they are intolerant or persecuting anybody but their actions or, perhaps I should say lack of action, speaks louder than any of their protestations to the contrary.

They are in limbo with no incardination much the same as the SSPX and other independents throughout the Catholic world and we hear such words as tolerance, unity in diversity and ecumenism from Vatican luminaries. It boggles the mind.

Bernadette said...

If they were to apply to become a biritual monastery such as the Monastery of St. Benedict at Norcia, I imagine they would hear from Rome quite quickly.

Louis E. said...

If Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos actually leaves the presidency of the PCED on his 80th birthday it will be unprecedented.

Pablo said...

Mr. Haley said:

It brings my blood to a boil to learn how traditional nuns and priests have been marginalized, ostracized and persecuted for standing fast for Tradition. I can tell you without any reservation whatsoever that I will fight such intolerance and persecution with every fiber of my being and I will defend those being persecuted with my life if necessary.

Sir,

Are you speaking of their treatement inside, or outside of the SSPX? Traditionals are far more vicious and cunning than others, as my Attorney and I have demonstrated here in the U.S.
Traditionals have no problem whatsoever kicking the soup out of their Priests one moment, then asking for the Sacraments the next.

Do you not know that Christ wept?
Priests and Nuns are going to always suffer; we must pray and do penance for them.

As everyone is busy as Thomas, examining the wounds of Christ, I look around at one of the Holiest places on earth, where our Lord with his own hand, painted a portrait of His Beloved, and gave it to a poor Mexican boy, a nobody.

There is not one traditional Catholic supporting this shrine, or even picking up a broom to help keep it clean.

Defend with our lives? One day we will have to defend our souls when our Lord asks us men, "Could you not have taken a little care of the home where I gave you a portrait of my Little Dove?".

The only ones protecting and cleaning the place are the wretched Freemasons.

Shame on us.

I believe no Pope, no Grand Worshipful Poohbah, no Shaman, no magic Enchanter, and so on, will ever destroy Christ's Church. When we as men muck it up, Christ will always raise a St. Francis to repair it. And He will not consult intellectuals or theologians or Popes on how to do so.

Our Lord raised Pope Saint Gregory the Great because of one act of charity. Perhaps if we tried some charity ourselves it might please the Lord.

Pray for the Holy Father, and all his Priests and Nuns (please especially remember deceased Nuns in your prayers).

Santa María de Guadalupe Esperanza nuestra, salva nuestra patria y conserva nuestra Fe.

Anonymous said...

Pablo:

I wonder. . .Don't you remember how the priests and religious were treated in the sixties and seventies by their very own? You can't get more vicious than that. Here's a recent case (2009) in an archdiocese on the east coast. Priest blows whistle on the priests he lives with. Guess who got suspended and cast out? While the wrong-doers are still "in good standing."

Also, as someone from Mexico, you should know how no one in the pre-VII Church came to your aid during the "reign of Calles." If you know different, please let me know if I've been misinformed about this.

Someone sent me a picture entitled "Despised and Rejected of Men." It makes a good meditation for all of us. Truly, no one is in a position to point any fingers. We've all let Our Lord down - horribly.

Anonymous said...

Pablo:
If a traditional minded priest, or as in my case, a young man who wishes to become a traditional priest, wishes to serve at holy places, what can they do. Where can we apply. ¿Qué podemos hacer?

Phillip C. in S.F.

Joe B said...

Most importantly, since the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer chose the route of reconciliation, they have become irrelevant in the battle for Catholic tradition. As soon as all the publicity of their 'change of heart' was milked for its propaganda value (thanks a lot, FSSR), they ceased to exist as influential players.

Just like FSSP.

See how easily that was done?

Those of us who told them it was too early were right. SSPX is still the only thing standing between us and the death of our beloved Catholic traditions.

And what do you think will happen to you when our true soldiers of fortitude, SSPX, finally get a real solution?

Get used to limbo, FSSR.

Pablo said...

Dear Anonymous,

What a great reply.

Sigismund Goetze painted that portrait and I would like to get a clear picture of it. I found an explaination of the painting at;

http://jloughnan.tripod.com/despised.htm

Yes, I do know some Catholics that supported our families, even at the sake of their lives; The San Patricios.

There is an old Mexican saying.

If you want to be a Catholic, go to Catechism classes.

If you want to learn how to fight, make friends with an Irishman.

Thanks again for a good reply, and a good teaching while you did so. Very Catholic.

May God be with you.

pablo

Anonymous said...

The way the Redemptorists have been given the cold shoulder by Rome is a cautionary note for all traditional Catholics.

They can't even call themselves Redemptorists any longer, and they are more Redemptorist than those who own the official name.

Paul Haley said...

Pablo said...

"Are you speaking of their treatement inside, or outside of the SSPX? Traditionals are far more vicious and cunning than others, as my Attorney and I have demonstrated here in the U.S. Traditionals have no problem whatsoever kicking the soup out of their Priests one moment, then asking for the Sacraments the next."

Who said I was speaking of the SSPX? For your information they were not associated with the SSPX for their order, succumbing to the sirens of the Modernists by throwing off their habits and reneging on their vows is no longer in existence. Surely, a testament to the new springtime and spirit of Vatican II don't you think?

As to your statement that: "Traditionals are far more vicious and cunning than others..." I should like you to remind you that painting slander with a broad brush is still slander and statements like that have no place in this forum. There have been good and bad throughout the ages in all classes of peoples but the people I mentioned in my post cannot be classified as anything but good.

For 35 years they fought to remain fully in accord with Tradition but were slandered, ostracized and marginalized and died penniless and forgotten in the direst of circumstances and without so much as a place to lay their head. Forgotten by the very Church that they had struggled so valiantly to serve and holding on to their very last breath to the vows they took before God. Who will remember them? We traditionalists will, I assure you, the ones you characterize as "more vicious and cunning than others." Egads, man, get a life!

Anonymous said...

I am wondering if all these travels of the Sons of the Redeemer are meant to prepare us for the approval of their proposal, which would then be a swan song for Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos. Again, that still leaves the clarification of S.P. in limboland. It's been on the Pope's desk now for over a year. Where the hell is it? Let me guess. It blew off the Pope's piano and out his window. It will be discovered by Cardinal Bertone at the bottom of a bowl of spaghetti.

One thing which worries me is that any recognition for the S.S.P.X would be 'impolitic' so soon before the arrival of that twerp who now claims to be U.S. president. Think about it. Can the Pope afford to do something for the S.S.P.X so soon before that visit when this might risk another scandal? Who knows what dirt the liberals might have dredged up against the Society, ready to publish two days before B.O. arrives? It is looking more and more as if the Pope will act for the Society, if at all, in the middle of the summer when everyone is asleep.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Here it comes! Wow! i am sometimes dead wrong but when I get it right I get it right! In my last post on this thread (or it might be the earlier thread, yes, I think so), I expressed the concern that the liberals would now cook up a new crisis to prevent the Pope from 'recognising' the S.S.P.X. If the moderators of this blog would go over the Catholic Church Conservation, they'll see what I just found five minutes ago. It has begun! And it has already reached the Bundestag!

Apparently, some S.S.P.X clerics could not keep their big mouths shut at this critical junction and went ahead and compared the sexual inverts to Nazis or something. Never mind. The important thing is that they just had to raise the spectre of the Nazis yet again. Now the Greens, the inverts, and the liberals want them hunted down and abolished as a racist group of fascists who want to 'persecute' sodomites. Why do I get the feeling that some Society hardliners are working to undermine everything Bishop Fellay and the Pope are trying to accomplish?

If this issue mushrooms into a crisis, I suggest that H.H. take the other route and create the international apostolic administration not for the S.S.P.X but for all the approved traditionalsit societies and orders collectively. This is what should have been done in the first place anyway.

P.K.T.P.

Pablo said...

Anonymous said:

¿Qué podemos hacer?

Do as the Church, and the Holy Priests, and Nuns and Religious of Holy Mother Church do. Go to the backbone, the Monestary.

If you want to be a Priest, contact the Father Prior at

http://www.ourladyofguadalupemonastery.com

he will direct you to a seminary.

Listen to the Father Prior. Many souls are dependant on your decision; therefore I will offer Holy Rosary prayers on yur behalf.

Ave Maria, Purissima! Que Dios te bendiga.

pablo

( Mr. Haley, when someone speaks ill of Mexicans, they speak ill of me. If my fellow Mexicans are entering this country illegally, for example, I work with my legislators and local law enforcement to help resolve the issue. When I know someone is illegal I tell them it is a sin, and they need to go to confession. I take responsibilty for my peoples, as I also tell my fellow trads to cut the baloney and let’s do better. I welcome being painted with broad strokes. Maybe one day it will help me get a life; at least I read this blog, so I must not be a complete loser).

Where do we begin to evangelize?
That place at which our anger resides.

Anonymous said...

I suggest that His Holiness and Cardinal Castrillón Hoyos move like greased lightning and recognise the S.S.P.X by tomorrow. After this week-end, it may be too late. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the leftists are now moving in full force to ostracise the S.S.P.X on a permanent basis, to put it 'beyond the pale'. They want to brand it forever with the taint of anti-Semitism, hatred for girly men, fascism, and so forth. In this, they have an enthusiastic ally in the hardliners of the S.S.P.X. Such people want to remain independent forever. One day, they will be able to declare that they alone are the true Church. And this might come true, given the direction in which NewChurch continues to move.

I can't understand all this importance attached to Germany in all of this. Germany is a Protestant counry which started and lost two world Wars. The whole damned place has less value than one single arrondissement in France. Who cares what the Jerries say? Why is the world--and the Church--attaching so much importance to them? They deserve to be ignored.

If the Pope and the Cardinal are too pusillanimous to do the right thing now, today, then they should take the other route and erect the exempt international and ritual apostolic administration for non-Society traditionalists. This would include but not be limited to the thirty-some societies and orders so far approved by Rome; it would , of course, enable its new ordinary to incardinate secular priests as well; it would also be able to reconcile existing unaffiliated churches.

This entire manœuvre by the Left is intended to keep the local bishops in control. They must not have control of the Mass of the Ages. The Mass does not belong to them; it is they who properly belong to it.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Time to play prophet.

I predict that what we are seeing now in Germany is just the beginning of a campaign to place the S.S.P.X beyond the pale, so that the Holy See cannot reconcile it. This aims to go beyond the matter of 'recogition' and Society faculties; it aims even to scuttle the doctrinal talks.

The liberals will do anything--anything--to stop the 'return' of the S.S.P.X. And the hardliners in the Society will help them!

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

I suggest that Bishop Bernard Fellay had better make a statement in this new German dispute. He cannot repudiate the controversial German Society statement because he must always speak the truth, and the German comparison between the sexual inverts and the Nazis is correct.

However, he can make a simple statement that the Society officially deplores what the Nazis did to buggerers during the War. After all, it is certainly Catholic dogma that such treatment is mortally evil. He should do something to diffuse this issue before it goes further. As long as the Society is in a nebulous position in the Church, these attacks will continue. Their aim is to prevent a Church recognition of the Society and derail all efforts at a unity which might eventually convert Rome.

P.K.T.P.

Gideon Ertner said...

PKTP,

This situation certainly is deplorable. Those who wrote the newsletter are acting completely irresponsibly, but this sort of overreaction is of course a natural consequence of their perceived status as lone guerilla fighters. They have no idea what harm they are doing to those of us among the mainstream who sympathize with them.

I am warming to the idea of an apostolic administration for trads. If the leader of such an entity were to get the FSSPX to merge with his jursidiction it would probably generate a lot less attention than if the FSSPX were dealing directly with the Pope.

Pedro said...

I can't believe my eyes. "Too hasty in reconciling with Rome"? "They have become irrelevant in the battle"?

No time is "too soon" to seek communion with the Holy Father, the Vicar of Christ on earth.

Anything else smells of schism. Even of heresy.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Ertner:

We agree entirely. My principal argument has been in favour of one universal apostolic administration for all traditionalists since about 1997. Sometimes circumstances force me to consider other options. For example, Rome has been trying to get the S.S.P.X to take the same structure for just itself since 2000. My preference would be for a single structure headed by a bishop whom Rome can trust, and not some hothead. The S.S.P.X could be invited to join the structure AFTER it is erected. If it refuses, there is always the possibility of a separate a.a. just for it.

The idea of an a.a. just for the Society, even on a temporary basis, was put on hold a few weeks ago. The most recent hope was a three-step procedure, starting with just a recognition of the Society given its honest claim that there is an emergency, thereby invoking supplied jurisdiction.

What the Left is now trying to do is to prevent even that--and even to scuttle the doc talks before they begin. Müller of Regensburg tried to stop the Society. When he failed, his political friends in Germany leapt on this recent statement of the S.S.P.X. Notice how they are grasping at straws now. They've got the head of the German Jews sending a message to the Pope to condemn the S.S.P.X and, at the same time, they are trying to open a case in the civil courts (this just came in on Catholic Conservation). What is the cause of all of this? It is the fact that the Society compared the sodomites to the Nazis re the Stuttgart Sin Parade.

The essence of the Jewish complaint is the same old nonsense about nothing can compare to Nazis or Holocausts: to compare anything to the Holocaust or the Nazis is itself the ultimate sin. Blah, blah, blah. They are so nauseating.

I'm not sure that the Left's recent campaign will succeed but, if it does not, they'll latch on to something else, and there's plenty for them to find because extremists in the S.S.P.X have been saying wild things for decades.

If the Pope and Cardinal C.H. have any brains at all, they'll realise that they must 'recognise' or 'regularise' or something very fast. Every day that passes affords the leftists more opporunities to scuttle everything.

If the Left does manage to cast the Society as an international pariah, the only course left open to the Pope will be to advance the old Mass through legitimate structures. At present, we still have no freedom in the 'approved' traditionalist movement because bishops can still threaten their own priests with reprisals for celebrating our Mass for us.

The liberals are not smart people. They always were stupid. But they are not complete idiots either. Even a moron would realise that it won't take much digging to find the dirt needed to prevent any recognition of the S.S.P.X. Bishop Fellay should have cleaned out his own stables years ago. He's now trying to move around people such as Fr. x. We all know who I mean. I am referring to the one with the black uniform and the portrait of some German.

The result is that ninety and five will be kept out because of the 5% of nutcases in the Society. The Pope needs to act fast. To his credit (if Romanus is telling us the truth), he DID try to complete the entire deal in January but Fellay wouldn't take the regularisation. Wake up, Bishop Fellay. If you don't, you may find that your entire organisation is banned *in civil law* from France, Germany, and so forth. This entire issue is now providing the leftists with the pretext they need to banish the Society from Europe. I'm serios. Think of the financial ramifications alone. I'm told that, thanks to W., the Society is already banned from Sweden. It's just the beginning.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Since this blog has not created a separate thread for this latest issue, I shall provide readers here with a very brief outline.

Apparently, there was some Sin Pride parade in Stuttgart. This naturally outraged the S.S.P.X in that country. One of its spokesman compared those resising the parade to those fine Catholics who resisted the Nazis in the 1930s.

This was like a red flag for two groups: the sodomites and the Jews. The buggerers are angry because the Nazis persecuted sexual inverts and incarcerated them in concentration camps. I believe that some were killed. The Jews were angry because the Society dared to leave them out re Nazis, I'm guessing. I'm not sure on that part. It could simply be that they are looking for an excuse to lash out at a Society which included W. as a leader.

The real indiscretion here, of course, was not the parallel per se but for the Society merely to mention Nazis for any reason after the Williamson débâcle. It was just not prudent. Why is it that everyone has Nazis on the brain these days? They were a bunch of thieving upstarts stuffed into tight little suits. The opposition between Nazis and Spartacists or Communists is false, of course. A national socialist and an international socialist are both socialists. They are twin brothers, not opposites. Their opposite number is . . . the Church.

Anyway, the organiser of the Sin Parade had lodged a complaint to the police against the Society. Meanwhile, the Green politician named Volker Beck is asking the German authorities to monitor the Society in order to protect the German constitution. This, I fear, is a first step towards banning them. Last and least, the Central Council of German Jews has sent a complaint against the Society to the Pope. No surprise there.

Really, I don't think that all of this was part of any orchestrated plan, except, perhaps, by the devil. What happened is that elements in the S.S.P.X which can't keep their big mouths shut are provoking the Left at a dangerous time. The time is dangerous because enemies of tradition are now trying to find ways of banning the S.S.P.X from Europe. Not good.

These sorts of attacks and problems will perdure as long as the relation between Rome and the Society is nebulous. The reason is that hardliners in the Society are provoking the Left in the first place so as to prevent any sort of deal, even a recognition of the Society as having licit Sacraments. Society hardliners want nothing to do with 'Conciliar Rome'.

The best course for Rome is to get us past this point by at least recognising the Society and faculties for its priests. Once past it, additional steps towards regularisation will seem minor and natural, even if they are not. Once His Holiness recognises the Society (e.g. under supplied jurisdiction), there is no turning back. The way forward may be long and arduous and the Society may have to suspend talks for long periods, but Rome will never withdraw that recognition, and this is needful for many souls who are unsure about the reliability of the S.S.P.X. Therefore, it's good for all of us.

P.K.T.P.

Oliver said...

More wild speculation from PKTP. I am sure he has a map of Europe and moves around opposing factions in toy form. That some SSPX clerics keep reminding Fellay of his duty to be a true son of Lefebvre is a good thing. Trads will not keep quiet about what is going on either side of the church door just to maintain the current Swiss/Roman flirtation. I am all for maximising any embarrassment felt by heads of institutions; they need to be reminded of whom they are supposed to represent and not make deals that will fall apart soon after. The rank and file do have voices these days, thank God.

Anonymous said...

Oliver says,

"That some SSPX clerics keep reminding Fellay of his duty to be a true son of Lefebvre is a good thing."

In that case, Fellay should do what His Grace did on 5 May, 1988 and agree to an arrangement with Rome. The ONLY reason the Archbishop pulled out was the failre of Rome to agree to consecrate a bishop by June of that year. Rome now accepts not one but three bishops plus a juridical structure which accords much more to the S.S.P.X than did the one of 1988 which L. agreed to. So, yes, Fellay should be a good son of Archbishop Lefebvre and agree to an even better arrangment than the one found acceptable by Archbishop Lefebvre.

Fortuantely, Fellay does listen to reason, whether from the rank and file or not and, incredibly, some good advice comes from below. Judging from what came from above since the 1960s, I'm hardly surprised. That's why, on 15th June of this year, Fellay agreed to "consider ... definitely" such an arrangement. Of course, he could listen to the Williamsons and Angleses and Méramos, Cérianis, and Abrahamowiczes.

But if Oliver had been more attentive, he'd notice that even that much is not necessary. Even a temporary structure is not needed yet. A recognition of the Society by Rome (something also welcomed by Bsp. Fellay on 15th June) would be a recognition of the rights of the faithful to the Traditional Latin Mass, a right which cannot be obstructed by the local diocesan clowns, um, I mean, bishops. Heaven forbid that the Society club might reach more faithful! Heaven forbid if more faithful might be able to escape the Novus Ordo circus!

I'm with Abp. Lefebvre. Like him, I want an arrangement with Rome. I'm with Bsp. Fellay. Like him, I would welcome a recognition from Rome and woudl consider ... definitely a termporary structure. Oliver is welcome to join this club.

What do we have from 'the rank and file'? I don't know. But what we have from certain Society clerics is more provocation of the liberals in Europe. And where is this leading? It is leading to attempts by such liberals to expel the Society from Europe. And since these liberals control the parliaments of several countries, this just might happen.

Let's avoid internal dissent on our side, Oliver. There's no need for it. A recognition of the Society by Rome would extend the reach of the Society without restricting its self-governance. I don't know about you, but more souls going to the T.L.M. sounds good to me. But that's just me.

I urge everyone to keep praying that the Holy Father will recognise the Society and end this limbo situation. Let's hope we don't have to wait another forty years for that much.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Oliver refers to more wild speculation from me. I'm not sure what he means, really. I have reported facts. Fact: the organisers of the Sin Pride event have asked the police to investigate the S.S.P.X. Fact: the Central Council of the Jews of Germany has demanded that the Pope exclude the S.S.P.X. Fact: Green politician Volker Beck has asked the German authorities to monitor the S.S.P.X in order to protect the constitution.

Speculation? No, I just make a reasonable prediction, which is that the leftists are trying to go after the S.S.P.X. And I make a suggestion, which is that a recognition of the Society by Rome would pre-empt attempts to exclude the Society.

P.K.T.P.

Prodinoscopus said...

PKTP,

Do you think that Rome will protect the Society, or leave them to the wolves? I fear the latter.

Oliver said...

P.K.T.P.,

Your proposals would sound reasonable to that chunk of the Society that wants communion with the conciliar church. However, the Society is not a united entity and is held together because of its network of old Mass centres and the safety it feels it has by being at some distance from modern Rome. The other significant faction is that which wants nothing to do with Rome this side of a restoration. The reasoning is finding itself happily beyond Roman control (but of course still part of the Church), it remains true to unreformed tradition. It does not want to appease political opposition, hence Williamson predicting Catholic underground resistance. Conciliar protection is no protection; just more creeping liberalism.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"Most importantly, since the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer chose the route of reconciliation, they have become irrelevant in the battle for Catholic tradition. As soon as all the publicity of their 'change of heart' was milked for its propaganda value (thanks a lot, FSSR), they ceased to exist as influential players.

Just like FSSP."

The greatest possible defense of Catholic Tradition is to offer the Mass and the sacraments and to celebrate the Divine Office according to the Traditional Rites of the Church. The FSSP does these, and so do the IBP, the F.SS.R and the ICRSP. So do the biritual societies that so many combox inhabitants love to kick and despise, and so do the hundreds of parish priests and individual religious throughout the world who offer Mass and the sacraments according to the Usus Antiquior, often with little or no support from their brothers in the priesthood or religious life, and sometimes under a level of persecution that many of the armchair warriors here cannot even comprehend.

Lex orandi, lex credendi. Polemics and doctrinal debates are very important and absolutely necessary, but they are not the only ways -- and are not even the most effective of ways -- to realign the beliefs of the majority of Catholics with traditional Catholic doctrine. The best way to do that is by celebrating the sacred liturgy in all its integrity and beauty, without omissions, corruptions, novelties and undue abbreviations. To immerse the faithful in the traditional liturgy is to immerse them in traditional doctrine, polemics or no polemics.

Thousands of Catholics who would never even have given the Usus Antiquior a second look have become its devoted followers because of the toils of the priests and religious that you condemn as "irrelevent" and compromised. Thousands who would have been left to the "usual" parish environments have been sanctified and brought nearer to God and the mind of His Church by the preaching and teaching of these same priests and religious.

As for me, I thank God daily for all the religious congregations that are either exclusively "Tridentine" or are officially biritual.

Anonymous said...

Oliver:

Yes, I do see your point. However, a mere recognition of the Society's position, or even a purely temporary and provisioanl structure, is simply not a threat to Society self-governance, and I am very confident at this point that the Society will not surrender one iota of self-governance until the doctrinal talks are complete. So I just don't see a problem, other than the siege mentality of the Society hardliners.

This brings us to a valid point mentioned by John Paul II in "Ecclesia Dei", the formation of a 'schismatic mentality' from too long a separation and too long a disobedience, however rightful. For any real Catholic, disobedience to the Pope, on the rare occasions when it is justified, must be accepted with the severest of regret; it can never becomee a default position or a normal situation to the faithful. But long separation does tend to make normal what is irregular by definition. So I think it important at least to 'establish a connexion' with Rome, however tenuous.

Furthermore, Bishop Fellay, as a truly Catholic Bishop, needs to serve all the faithful and not only Society supporters. There are tens of thousands of souls who would be enormously helped by Society ministry if they only felt that they were permitted to attend Society Masses and retreats.

Enough said for now.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Prodinoscupus:

I'm not sure what you mean in your last question. Please clarify. Until the Society has a *permanent* structure (not a temporary one), nobody can be thrown to the wolves.

At the momemnt, the only wolves I see are the secular wolves in Germany who are now plotting to have the Society expelled from that country. Society hardliners do their best to provoke them all the more.

P.K.T.P.

Prodinoscopus said...

PKTP,

I mean will the Pope protect the Society from the secular wolves by granting them a formal (even if provisional) status within the Church? Or will he let them be devoured?

In other words, do you think that the Pope cares more about integrating the SSPX or pleasing the Jews? Obviously he cannot do both.

Prodinoscopus said...

I tried to clarify my question, PKTP, but some of my comments aren't making it past the censors.

Do you think that Pope Benedict XVI will protect the Society from the unholy trinity of Sodomites, Greens, and Jews, which wants to expel the SSPX from Europe, or will he throw them to the wolves?

Anonymous said...

My goodness, P.K.T.P.! How many words per minute can you type? Anyway you could shorten your posts? Long posts like yours get skimmed, not read.

Oliver said...

P.K.T.P.,

Both Bishops Tissier and Williamson would also say they have souls to consider outside the walls of the SSPX and they have large religious and political constituencies of their own. And neither are in a hurry this side of an eclipse to become dutiful Ecclesia Dei creatures or protected species from the wrath of those same worldly forces that the conciliarists now honour so much. There is a war out there to fight and true Catholics need to flex their muscles.

Anonymous said...

2) Inside the Vatican article: F.SS.R still "in no man's land"; but no regrets over reconciliation with Rome.

Sure no regrets. Its all those foolish SSPX people who funded them and now have the regrets.