Rorate Caeli

A Message from the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna


The Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna, the man ultimately responsible for this, and this, and this (and this - and also this; and this, too), has a message for the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX) today (EarthTimes - see also Kreuz.net and ORF.at):

Vienna - The Vatican is set to tell a rebel ultra- traditional Catholic group that the Church's core values and its relations with Judaism are not negotiable, Austrian Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn said in an interview published on Saturday. Earlier this year, the Catholic leadership in Rome drew criticism from within and outside the Church for lifting excommunication orders against bishops of the controversial Society of Saint Pius X (SSPX), including British-born Richard Williamson who has denied the scale of the Nazi mass murder of Jews.

In the coming days, a recently restructured church commission would meet the renegades, the cardinal and Vienna archbishop told the Passauer Neue Presse.

Rome would not give the group a "free pass," and Pope Benedict XVI was striving to "get a group of Catholics which has parted from the Church back into the boat," said Schoenborn, who is a member of several Vatican bodies.

The non-negotiable positions to be set out to the Pius Society include the Church's positions towards the Jewish faith, other non- Christian religions as well as Christian faiths, and towards religious freedom as a fundamental human right, according to Schoenborn.

In June, the pope placed the commission under the authority of the Holy See's main disciplinary watchdog body, after it had drawn criticism for its handling of the SSPX.
SSPX members are currently barred from official roles within the church unless they agree to fully abide with its teachings.

Such teachings include the so-called Second Vatican Council reforms of the 1960s, which sought to modernize the Church.

The Cardinal of Vienna: a man who is tough when it counts.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

New Catholic said, "The Cardinal of Vienna: a man who is tough when it counts."

Ya right.

Thom said...

Who writes this stuff? Thanks for the chuckles, whomever you are.

Yes, I'll be sure to avoid those evil ultra-right-wing-anti-Semitic-rebel-outcast-behind-the-times-unhip-traditionalists. Yes, sir! I wouldn't want to be associated in any way with them! (wink, wink)

Peter said...

"Church's core values and its relations with Judaism are not negotiable".

That would be really great, but I think that His Eminence means "postconciliar Church core values" when he says "Church core values".

Anonymous said...

I wish that the learned Cardinal Archbishop would clarify for those of us in the secular world exactly how the Church's current positions on the referenced issues are in contradiction to the positions held by this "renegade" group, since that group thinks that they are merely maintaining the Church's ancient beliefs. I think this man is entirely capable of leading a schism of German, Austrian and perhaps French bishops, if this "renegade" group is canonically regularized within the Church.

M.A. said...

"..this celebration in no way any kind of liturgical specifications have been violated."

How true. There is nothing specific in the books prohibiting balloons, or strange looking vestments, or whipping cream, or bonfires. Come to think of it there is nothing prohibiting Communion in the hand, common-use extraordinary dispensers of Communion, Pentecostal Masses, liturgical services by lay people, female servers, funeral services for non-Catholics in Catholic churches...

Nope. Everything is just fine and dandy in N.O land. It's those SSPXers who are the problem, I tell ya. They want to be Catholic!

There should be a law against that!

(sarcasm)

Joe B said...

Maneuvering to be the next Pope, I'd guess.

Anonymous said...

Why can't the SSPX (and the sedevacantists) just agree to give the post - Vatican II magisterium EXACTLY the same respect that liberals give to the pre - Vatican II magisterium. Just kidding.

For that matter, if the SSPX must kow-tow to every jot and tittle of Vatican II, why don't their self-appointed thought police get examined on THEIR loyalty to the past?

Anonymous said...

sounds like desperation on the part of some lefty vaticanistas at the prospect of what might result from the talks.
---scrantonpriest

Londiniensis said...

For a reputed polished aristo, His Eminence is not exactly diplomatic. Or is this some devious mind-game with him cast in the role of "bad cop"?

Mind you, what he actually says is reasonable - and open to refinement - but does that mean that some of the other SSPX positions are more, how shall we say, negotiable?

Dan Hunter said...

"get a group of Catholics which has parted from the Church back into the boat," said Cardinal Schoenborn"

Somebody pinch me!
When,may I ask did the FSSPX "part from the Church"?

The Holy Father does not think so.

The FSSPX has always offered a valid Catholic Mass that fulfills ones Sunday obligation.

Since when does a Society that offers a valid Mass, that fulfills ones Sunday obligation, constitute a Mass of a Society that is "outside the Church"?

With all due respect, Cardinal Schoenborn is either grossly misinformed, or is making up the rules as he goes along.

Anonymous said...

The Cardinal of Vienna is a big blow hard who isn't tough when JESUS is blasphemed by artists and other heretical priests. I believe he has lost the trust of Pope benedict and he now is a nothing as regards the universal church.

Anonymous said...

Too bad this man won't be 75 in 2010, instead of only 65.

He looks like a total imbecile standing there with his balloon!

Sick comments from Schoenborn (no surprise), and a REALLY SICK photo.

(But didn't JP II do the same kind of nonsense from time to time?!)

Anonymous said...

Complete Video:
http://www.gloria.tv/?media=16608

Jean said...

"I believe he has lost the trust of Pope benedict and he now is a nothing as regards the universal church."

There is potentially much in what you say. As is said, "Where there is smoke there is fire", so too, "Where there is hot air, someone is blowing it", in this case the Cardinal Archbishop. Also the paraphrase "Methinks the Cardinal doth protest too much."

Then there's an applicable reference to the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtains", except that in this case, he's wearing the curtains. In either case, it's not too difficult to ignore him. Waffle on, Eminance.

Brian said...

What exactly is the the "Church's positions towards the Jewish faith, other non-Christian religions as well as Christian faiths?"

According to Vatican I's Dogmatic Constitution "Pastor Aeternus," "when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable."

In 1441, Pope Eugene IV "in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority," at the Council of Florence, "defined a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."

That doctrine was:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this
ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and
other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given."

Did Vatican II proclaim different "non-negotiable position" regarding "the Jewish faith, other non- Christian religions as well as Christian faiths."

If so, how can that be?

Stu said...

Is the Papal Nuncio to Iran open?

BiggusHeaddus said...

How true. There is nothing specific in the books prohibiting balloons, or strange looking vestments, or whipping cream, or bonfires

That reminds me of when I was in the NO and a group of us parishoners approached the pastor to protest some liturgical abuses. He stood there in front of a group of us and dismissed us with, "well, the rubrics don't say that you CAN'T do these things."

Paul Haley said...

God save us from such duplicitous shepherds.

Knight of Malta said...

Prelates are so hinked-up with inclusivity, multiculturalism, judaic masses, protestant masses, masses to feed to poor, the hungry; masses to include every language, but Latin, masses to include every style of dance, song; guitar masses, flamenco masses, etc., etc. That, really, the mass is often a banal unfunny comedy, instead of the Sacrifice it is meant to be. The Msgr. at St. Francis Basilica in Santa Fe, NM, for instance, even had a Rabbi participate in the homily! What is wrong with these guys! Yeah, have a Rabbi give a talk outside Mass to Catholics, but during Mass, when the participants are literally "captive"!?

Likewise, this Bishop seems to think that Vatican II has made the mass a parade...

Anonymous said...

My goodness. Suddenly religious liberty, ecumenism, liberal democracy, and Judaizing become our "core values" and are "non-negotiable".

Our core values are belief in the Trinity, Incarnation, and a Sacramental Church! THEY are non-negotiable.

If things condemned by the Popes up until the early 20th century, and which the Church clearly did not practice (in fact, we were fine with the burning of heretics, Crusades, ghettos, etc)...suddenly become the "Non-negotiable Core Values"...then it is a different religion.

Hopefully, Shoenborn does not speak for the Pope.

Anonymous said...

The Lord Cardinal wrote:

"In the coming days, a recently restructured church commission would meet the renegades, the cardinal and Vienna archbishop told the Passauer Neue Presse."

I'm confused. By "renegades", is he referring to the S.S.P.X or to the forces of the Vatican? Also, is he among the renegades he refers to?

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Abide by the teachings of the Church ! Does this Doiocease follow all the norms of the Moto Proprio SP? Or Latin language in Liturgy and Gregorian Chant and its' place as defined by the smae Second Vatican Council? They lose more credability with every statement.

Anonymous said...

You know, it's odd, but the S.S.P.X has said that the first item on the agenda for these meetings is liturgy. Papal prayers in synagogues is not liturgical, since nothing infidels do counts as liturgy. It seems to me that the bad Cardinal is confusing œcumenism and religious liberty with liturgy. These are different categories. He must have read the programme from the bottom up. Indeed, 'bottoms up' could be the motto of the New Mass.

P.K.T.P.

Louis E. said...

M.A.'s post about "common-use extraordinary dispensers of Communion" got me thinking of PEZ dispensers...so does any trendy church have wall-mounted tabernacles where people can line up and self-communicate?(Just refill every Sunday).

Anonymous said...

Brian said, "Did Vatican II proclaim different "non-negotiable position" regarding "the Jewish faith, other non- Christian religions as well as Christian faiths."

If so, how can that be?"

Excellent point. Jordanes and Rick D. please respond.

Jordanes said...

Someone asked if I might respond to Brian's question: "Did Vatican II proclaim different "non-negotiable position" regarding "the Jewish faith, other non- Christian religions as well as Christian faiths."

No, Vatican II did not.

Anonymous said...

As Cardinal Schoenborn said. You vill follow zee oders or you villl be excommunicated....When God Asks him why... Ach so I vas only following zee orders!! It is called the Nuremburg defence! Sorry Vatican II defence.

Irenaeus of New York said...

Its people like this cardinal that make me very worried about the advanced age of the Holy Father. Should this man become the next Pope, I would despair.

Rick DeLano said...

"Did Vatican II proclaim different "non-negotiable position" regarding "the Jewish faith, other non- Christian religions as well as Christian faiths."

No way, and I can tell you for sure the attempt to claim it did has already been pancaked.

Certain staffers at the USCCB tried to sneak one in the back door through the US Bishops' Adult Catechism, and some hotheaded Traditionalists....oh excuse me make that "motuists of servile obedience" got the thing retracted.

Nice to see the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna this freaked out.

Somebody's got him plenty worried.

I'll sleep like a baby tonight.

Sacerdos quidam said...

Knight of Malta:

You write well!

Anonymous said...

Schoenborn the Smug and Smarmy, should unpack his own baggage before he makes dispersions about others'.

Matt

Jusztinián G. Rathkaj said...

When you see Cardina Schoenborn with this balloons in liturgy one has to admit the Count perfectly knows how to align his bannerette. I have seen him singing mass ad orientem in october 2004 to thank for the beatification of Charles I of Austria. Robed in fabulous prelatial garb endowed by emperor Charles VI (+1740), given his imposing stature, he looked like a real prince of the church in the true sense of the word and of course his sermon fully corresponded the anticipation of the conservative audience, for the most part made up by old austro-hungarian high nobility and for the 21th century in old traditions still very deep rooted peasants of lower austria and tyrol.
This shady character makes him far more dangerous to Pope Benedict XVI than ++Mahoney, ++Daneels,
+Lehmann etc who have never concealed their rather liberal agenda.

Anonymous said...

"I'm confused. By "renegades", is he referring to the S.S.P.X or to the forces of the Vatican? Also, is he among the renegades he refers to?"


Schoenborn is indeed a renegade. He is a man with evil intentions, and a dangerous threat to the Catholic Church. He was a treasured member of John Paul II's inner circle. John Paul II knew his theological mindset, but promoted him anyway.
We should rightly condemn these bad leaders in the Church, their agenda and their ambitions.
We should also rightly condemn those in the Vatican for promoting these people, and for doing nothing to stop such blasphemy as "balloon Masses" etc.

John Paul II reigned for 26 years. But the effects of his agenda will be unfortunatly, longer lasting.
Anyone who declares John Paul II a "saint" or tries to copy his agenda should be highly suspect.
Thus, people like Schoenborn,64, and also Cardinal Stanislaw Dzwicz,70, of Krakow (who just officiated at a mini-Assisi like celebration in Krakow which highly praised John Paul II) should also be viewed with extreme suspicion.

The only fortunate thing about these people, is that there are -for the most part- no "young" men who share their views in positions of power in the Church. Most of these people are at least, 60.

Jordanes said...

The thing about Cardinal Schoenborn that leaves me most baffled is that I've been given to understand he is responsible for the passages of the new Catechism which discuss the Fall of Man and Original Sin, which uphold the Church's faith in a literal Adam and a literal Eve, first human beings on earth and biological parents of every other human after them. But then he says and does these outrageous or embarrassing things . . .

Anonymous said...

I find solace in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Oliver said...

These modern prelates do more or less echo the views of those in government and it would be unheard of for the Vatican to now renege on her various V2 modernisms. Think of the embarrassment it would cause them in their future dealings with politicians. These people serve no faith but their own.

Anonymous said...

Jordanes,

The answer to your bafflement is that the Cardinal is a man without principles who will seek to satisfy whatever audience is in front of him.

Jordanes said...

I hope that's not the answer.

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Schoenborn is addressing himself, in front of a chance audience, to Benedict XVI. He is the messenger of the opposing forces to the Pope.

They suspect the Holy Father. They want to frighten him. So, they threaten him. These forces are not serious, their balloons are full of hot air only. They have few if any serious followers but Tradition is committed to God. The gates of hell shall not prevail.

Francesco B. said...

What the Cardinal seems to be doing is trying to drive a wedge between the SSPX and the Holy See by attributing to the Holy Father ideas and intentions that the Holy Father simply does not have. He is probably hoping that the SSPX will take him at his word and break off from the negotiations. I am convinced he is trying to stop the doctrinal talks because he (and the whole liberal contingent) are frightened to death that the result of the talks will be an official papal document that in no uncertain terms denounces and condemns some of their most precious beliefs and practices. I really hope the SSPX (and the Holy See) see straight through his petty attempts at sabotage.

May God have mercy on us.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I think Cdl. S. is just staggeringly naive. Stories abound of how Cdl. S. refused to believe that those responsible for translating the Catechism into English would have engage in subversive activities in their translation.

Anonymous said...

Who cares what he says or thinks? Does anyone here care or think what Protestants, Orthodox, and Jews think? Pray for them all to come to return to the true fold.

John L said...

'Sometimes I think Cdl. S. is just staggeringly naive.'

Sorry, but I don't think it is the Cardinal who is being naive here ... you don't get to a post of his importance if you are naive. The sort of tactic you mention ('Cdl. S. refused to believe that those responsible for translating the Catechism into English would have engage in subversive activities in their translation') is a standard tactic of modernist prelates when dealing with complaints from faithful Catholics. Of course he knows full well about such things.

Anonymous said...

What has happened to this prince of the Church?

I have heard from reliable source that he was close to Tradition in his youth....

/George

Anonymous said...

Perhaps he has a split personality.

Anonymous said...

This type of Mass, is perhaps one of the types that the Holy Father explained in his MP that has caused deep pain in those so faithful to the Church and deeply rooted in the faith. And so it goes on. I pray he can stop this nonsense that causes so much scandal to the faithful. We don't want this !!!!!!!!

Pablo said...

What has happened to this prince of the Church?

Whenever good and evil are placed as a choice, evil will always win.

The High Priest spit in the face of our Lord and condemned future generations of Jews "Let His blood be upon us and upon our children.

The crowd chose Barabbas instead of the Supreme Goodness.

Judas chose evil over becoming a Priest forever.

We crucify Christ everyday when we choose to sin.

This Cardinal is choosing evil over good. We must pray earnestly for his soul.

Pray for the Pope and all his Priests and Nuns.

*

Anonymous said...

Has His Emminence organized within his Archdiocese a prayer crusade to beg God to grant peace between Rome and the Society Of Saint Pius X?

Tim

oratorio said...

Re: betting on the doctrinal discussions....is anyone taking the Vatican with the points? Anyone? Last I checked the line, it was saying SSPX by three touchdowns.

MCITL said...

The Church does not use this language of "core values". No one who speaks this way is prepared to adequately represent His Holiness or the Church in any discussions with the SSPX or the press.

This is worldly and superficial language that has no place in the Church of Jesus Christ. It is vacuous, a void into which would place at will what one pleases.

Jesus Christ is the Tradition of the Church, very much the opposite of empty and meaningless phrases borrowed from the peddlers of modernity.

Gillibrand said...

First class and imaginative use of links to my blog Cathcon!

Anonymous said...

One understands, of course, that he has to atone for his birth.
Cardinal Schoenborn reminds me very much of another prince, some two centuries past, Phillippe d'Orleans, a.k.a. Philippe Egalité.... just as trendy and ambitious.