Rorate Caeli

New link

Our blog has always linked exclusively to other blogs run by Catholics. That is why we have not linked to even very friendly Eastern Orthodox and Anglican blogs.

An exception will be opened for a very worthy cause: The Anglo-Catholic, a blog run by a member of the "Anglican Church in America" (the American province of the "Traditional Anglican Communion") in an endeavor to introduce his fellow Anglicans in America to the great gift represented by Anglicanorum Coetibus.

51 comments:

The Anglo-Catholic said...

New Catholic,

Thank you so very much for your kind support of my new endeavor! I am truly honored to be the first "almost Catholic" blog linked on RORATE CAELI.

I bid the prayers of all of your readers for the achievement of full communion between the ACA/TAC and the Holy See -- and that soon.

In the coming months I will do my best both to report on our journey into full communion with the Catholic Church and to share the glories of our Anglican Patrimony.

Again, a heartfelt thanks for your support and prayers!

Chris said...

Please forgive me if this question is ignorant, as a cradle Catholic there is very much that I do not know about protestant religions. In NYC (Times Square area) there is an Episcopal Church called Saint Mary the Virgin. This church (building) is one of the most beautiful churches I have ever seen [http://www.stmvirgin.org/]. I went inside and to the naked eye, this church was every bit a "Traditionalist Catholic" church. The priests celebrate "mass" ad orientem, and they celebrate what appears to be a Tridentine Mass. They even have Eucharistic adoration.

Does anyone know specifically if this church (priests, parishioners, and church building) is part of the Anglican group coming over to the Catholic Church?

Anonymous said...

Great to hear!.

The Anglo-Catholic said...

Chris,

No, there is a huge difference between the Episcopal Church and ACA/TAC. The Anglican Church in America, the US province of the TAC, has its origins in the Episcopal Church. Traditionalist Anglicans (mostly Anglo-Catholics) broke away from the Episcopal Church in the 1970s when the latter began to "ordain" women to the priesthood and introduced various other innovative doctrines and practices.

Unfortunately, liturgical ceremonial is no indicator of orthodoxy amongst Anglicans. There are plenty of so-called "Affirming Catholics" who like to play dress-up and burn incense -- but they also have women priests, are accepting of immoral lifestyles, &c.
The Church of St. Mary the Virgin you note has a female "deacon" on staff, for example. It is certainly not one of our parishes.

Matthew said...

It looks like St. Mary the Virgin is part of the institutional Episcopal Church, not one of the traditional groups.

James Gillespie said...

Chris

St Mary's, New York, is a (I would say the) classic instance of the chaos that has taken over Anglo-Catholicism in America and elsewhere.

Yes, it is a very fine church with a good liturgical tradition and it does, indeed, look like a traditional Catholic church. But there it stops. The reason? Women priests are allowed to officiate at the altar and if you access their website you will see Bishopess Schorri (complete with a rainbow mitre) wielding a thurible as the main celebrant at High Mass.

Don't be deceived by appearances, they don't always live up to expectations. I can think of no greater instance of a once solid Anglo-Catholic parish that has gone so badly wrong. There is not the slightest chance of St Mary's accepting the Holy Father's generous offer. It will live and die a sham.

Thom Curnutte said...

No, Chris, St. Mary the Virgin is in full communion with TEC.

wheat4paradise said...

Prayers for and best wishes to The Anglo-Catholic. Christian, I really liked your post about Cardinal Kasper. Very witty, and very true. Hope to welcome you and all of your community home soon. God bless!

David

stambrose said...

Chris,

As a parish St. Mary the Virgin is liturgically Anglo-Catholic, but pretty much accepts all the things that have disillusioned and scandalized so many Anglicans: ordination or women, acceptance of homosexual lifestyles etc. So, they are very much at home and happy in the Episcopal Church, USA.

While to most Catholics it would seem strange for "high" liturgy to be associated with such things, it isn't so much uncommon in Anglican and Episcopalian circles. A friend of mine, a former Episcopalian who is now an Orthodox monk, told me he believed that Anglicanism is really just the religion of "good taste."

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Kasper says provision for Anglicans is not anti-ecumenical

By Cindy Wooden
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- The establishment of special structures for Anglicans who want to enter into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church absolutely is not a signal of the end of ecumenical dialogue with the Anglican Communion, said the Vatican's chief ecumenist.

Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the visit Nov. 19-22 of Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, primate of the Anglican Communion, to the Vatican "demonstrates that there has been no rupture and reaffirms our common desire to talk to one another at a historically important moment."

Archbishop Williams was scheduled to speak at a conference sponsored by Cardinal Kasper's office and to meet privately Nov. 21 with Pope Benedict.

The Vatican announced Oct. 20 that Pope Benedict was establishing a special structure for Anglicans wanting to enter the Roman Catholic Church while maintaining some of their liturgical, spiritual and pastoral heritage.

The Vatican said the establishment of the "personal ordinariates" -- structures similar to dioceses -- was a response to repeated requests from Anglican individuals and groups, who saw their hopes for full Anglican-Roman Catholic unity blocked by the acceptance of women priests and bishops, the ordination of openly gay bishops and the blessing of homosexual unions in some provinces of the Anglican Communion.

COMEDY TO BE CONTINUED ...
P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

In an interview published in the Nov. 15 edition of L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Cardinal Kasper said that the papal provision is not anti-ecumenical.

"To think, as some commentators have said, that the pope made this decision just to 'expand his empire' is ridiculous," the cardinal said.

"Let's stick to the facts. A group of Anglicans freely and legitimately asked to enter the Catholic Church. It was not our initiative," he said.

The desire of some Anglicans to seek full communion and the pope's response are direct results of the Second Vatican Council and of 40 years of Catholic-Anglican dialogue, which demonstrated to both sides just how much they have common despite 450 years of separation, he said.

At the same time, Cardinal Kasper said, it makes no sense to try to guess how many Anglicans will ask to join the Catholic Church under the pope's new provisions.

"People do not become Catholic just because they disagree with the choices of their own confession," he said.

It would be wrong to assume that most Anglicans who disagree with the ordination of women or the acceptance of homosexuality will want to enter the Catholic Church, he said, because many of them come from the evangelical, or more Protestant, wing of the Anglican Communion.

Cardinal Kasper also said that the passage of groups of Anglicans into the Catholic Church will involve resolving some very complicated practical problems, including the concern some Anglican priests and bishops will have about provoking a division among their flocks by deciding to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church.

In addition, there is the question of who owns the Anglican parish churches and determining under what circumstances the buildings would go with the majority of parishioners.

Cardinal Kasper also spoke about the Traditional Anglican Communion, a group that claims more than 400,000 members and describes itself as "a worldwide association of orthodox Anglican churches, working to maintain the catholic faith and resist the secularization of the church."

The cardinal said that while the TAC leaders asked the Vatican two years ago to find a way for them to join the Catholic Church, they did not participate in the conversations that led to the pope's recent provision.

"Now, however, they are jumping on a train that already has left the station. If they are sincere, OK, the doors are open. But we cannot close our eyes to the fact that they have not been in communion with Canterbury since 1992" and therefore are not technically leaving the Anglican Communion to join the Roman Catholic Church, he said.

P.K.T.P.

wheat4paradise said...

Quote from a sermon by the Rector of St. Mary the Virgin parish:

At this point of my journey in life, it seems to me that a God of judgment, even if it seems easier, misses the point of the Good News of God’s life and God’s love. A religion of rules wasn’t working for the children of Israel in Jesus’ day and I don’t think it has ever worked well for us Christians. I think a God of presence does work and that’s what this parish, at its best, has always been about.

Love, active, giving, hard, easy, joyful love is what you and I have as to give, to live by. Love is what works for those who are hungry, sick, naked, stranger, in prison – and love is what works for those who see or don’t see, but who respond from their heart.


Yawn.

Smells and bells,
Smells and bells,
Let's swim in chocolate,
And tumble into hell.

Anonymous said...

"Unfortunately, liturgical ceremonial is no indicator of orthodoxy amongst Anglicans."

Just like amongst Catholics.

Anonymous said...

Really, Sour Cardinal Grapes, alias Walter Kasper, is so hilarious that the Pope really needs to start a new office in the curia and send him there. We need a court jester.

Here is the first hilarity:

"Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the visit Nov. 19-22 of Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, primate of the Anglican Communion, to the Vatican 'demonstrates that there has been no rupture and reaffirms our common desire to talk to one another at a historically important moment'.


Notice the reference to "rupture", which comes from the 'hermeneutic of continuity' concern. For Kasper, what must be continued is what started in 1966 with Ramsay, Abp. of Cantuar and Paul VI. But the Anglicans exist owing to the RUPTURES caused by them in 1534 and in 1558.

He thinks that the useless œcumenical talks will continue. So what? They have borne no good fruits and will continue to do so.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

IT is fascinating what it is going on between the Roman Catholics and the Anglo-Catholics. Since I have limited knowledge about the Anglo-Catholics, I was reading some of their blogs.
I found an article with this paragraph, and I would like to receive feedback. When I read it, it sounded very much like my Orthodox Faith, but I was surprised to find it among Anglo-Catholics:

"But it must be said that we should very much doubt that many in the orthodox Continuing Anglican movement will avail themselves of this new constitutional structure in the Roman Communion, as our priests and people are generally not inclined or disposed to accept the Papal Claims and Dogmas and have no affinity with Papalism. We should confidently assert that most of our Continuing Churchmen repudiate the I Vatican Council of 1870 and so find no overwhelming attraction to this new offer. Papal Infallibility and Papal Universal Jurisdiction, combined with Rome's rejection of the validity of Anglican Orders and its assertion of the de fide and salvific character of the Marian Dogmas, is altogether a situation most Traditional Anglicans will find simply too difficult to accept. Assuredly, for most Continuing Churchmen, the observance of the creation of the new body will be intriguing, but academic, detached and remote, and likely nothing more. We shall be 'observers and by-standers' during the process to come."

Author: The Reverend Canon Chandler Holder Jones, SSC
Parish Priest and Rector of Saint Barnabas' Anglican Church in Dunwoody, Georgia.

Blog: http://www.philorthodox.blogspot.com/

Thank you.
Stefan

Anonymous said...

"The desire of some Anglicans to seek full communion and the pope's response are direct results of the Second Vatican Council and of 40 years of Catholic-Anglican dialogue,"


The best response to this is to let out a long, full-bellied laugh.

This is priceless! It's a scream! Believe it or not, they are claiming that the reunion of traditionalist Anglicans is a result of their asinine œcumenical talkathons: talk, talk, talk. They might as well have been talking about the weather.

The truth is the polar opposite: it was owing to the utter, absolute, irrevocble and total FAILURE of œcumenism that the Canterburians moved further and further AWAY from Christianity. The new structures are lifeboats launched by Rome to rescue their refugees.

Kasper has the unmitigated gall to try to credit himself with this rescue. In fact, knowing that his incompetence and low intelligence were legendary, Benedict XVI (whom they miscall 'Pope Benedict') entrusted the operation to another dicastery. Kasper is supposed to head the Council for "Christian Unity". Well, when some non-Catholics flee desperately to Rome and ask for unity with the Pope, I'd call that Christian Unity. His Department. So how come he was cut out? It's because he's a loser and hopeless buffoon. Your average kindergarten student oould effect more unity than he. He can't name one person whom he's actually united to the See of Rome.

He has now past his 76th birthday and he's ripe for the plucking. There's a nursing home waiting for this pathetic fraud and Nurse Diesel will soon get her hands on him. The sooner the better. He should have been carted off to the nacker's yard decades ago.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Here's another gem from Kasper, the Useless Œcumenist:

"People do not become Catholic just because they disagree with the choices of their own confession,"

No, they joined up because they could hardly wait to subject themselves to the Clown Masses which liberals like Kasper have entrenched. Tell me another one. I'm falling off my chair laughing at this fool.

The Anglicans in question mistakenly adhered to a 'branch theory' according to which they were ALREADY Catholic. They have sought unity with the Pope PRECISELY because of "the choices of their own confession" to dress up women as priests and as bishops and, more recently, to accept the unspeakable abomination of sexual inversion.

Kasper would like us to think that it was his talkathons with Canterbury which inspired these Anglicans to cross the Tiber. The notion is so hilarious that it would make a cat laugh. The only reason these Anglican traditionalists did not cross the Tiber even sooner is that people like him and that Basil Hume twerp kept them out and worked hard to turn the sacred Catholic Liturgy into cheap entertainment worthy of a circus.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Kasper the Clown writes this:

"The cardinal said that while the TAC leaders asked the Vatican two years ago to find a way for them to join the Catholic Church, they did not participate in the conversations that led to the pope's recent provision."

Really? Then who did participate in these talks? The FiF? But they have still not formally ASKED for reunion with Rome. It is the FiF and others, if anybody, who are jumping on a train which left the station two years ago. The TAC asked for reunion two years ago. So WHY were they cut out of talks, I wonder? Who cut them out? Was it you, Kasper? No, because Benedict XVI cut YOU out. That's how much confidence he has in you. It was your Department, the Council for 'Promoting Christian Unity', and yet the Pope excluded you from effecting 'Christian Unity' and gave the file to Levada at the C.D.F. instead. Your'e a monumental failure and a loser, Kasper, and now, all sour grapes, you're trying to give your parting shot before you're carted out off to the nursing home. Let's see, you're over 76 years old. Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock. By the way, since your œcumencial endeavours have been so successful, pray do tell us, will you be effecting unity between the Pope and the Archdruid of Canterbury before your imminent retirement. We all need another laugh.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Anglican blogs that promote conversion to convert to the Catholic Church don't hesitate to declare that Rowan Williams and the Anglican "experiment" are "irrelevant" and old news.

However, our Churchmen — example: Cardinal Kasper, who also claimed to have represented the Holy Father's mind in regard to Catholic-Anglican ecumenism — portray Rowan Williams and Anglicanism as relevant and important to Rome.

The folks (those who intend to convert ot Rome) inside Anglicanism insist that Anglicanism is dead-in-the-water.

Catholic churchmen insist that the opposite is true.

If, for example, Rowan Williams is yesterday's news, why does Rome portray him as a VIP religious figure?

Why does Rome portray the crumbling Anglican "Communion" as a revelant religious institution?

Does Rome know something about the health of the Anglican "Communion" that soon-to-be Anglo-Catholics don't know?

Tim

Anonymous said...

But Kasper the Clown leaves his best joke for the end of this interview. Here it be:

Now, however, they are jumping on a train that already has left the station. If they are sincere, OK, the doors are open. But we cannot close our eyes to the fact that they have not been in communion with Canterbury since 1992" and therefore are not technically leaving the Anglican Communion to join the Roman Catholic Church, he said.


In other words, ladies and gentlemen, the TAC people are not Anglicans, since they left the Canterbury Communion in 1992! (actually, the Canadian TACers were the first to leave, doing so in 1976). Since they're not Anglicans, "Anglicanorum Cœtibus" is not for them!!!!

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha! Incredible! This is the best joke I've heard in years!

Kasper is preparing us for the document set to appear a fortnight from now. It will deal specifically wtih the TAC. Notice, however, that he does not exclude the TAC from the recently-published apostolic constitution. The truth is that because the TAC boarded the train BEFORE all the others did, and before that train ran down Kasper and cut his career to shreds, it is getting MORE than just the apostolic constitution. It is getting special provisions and exemptions to enable all of its ministers to come across and become Catholic priests (except those who are 'remarried'). The truth is that the Pope now needs the TAC or he'll be left standing there with no reliable Anglicans to welcome into his new provisions.

Talk about trying to put a good spin on a catastrophe for the liberal cause. Well, the attempt failed because the attempter has no ability. A smart man would have shut it stupid mouth, uttered a few vague words about how œcumenism still has a pulse and we'd only have a chuckle at his expense. Instead, Kasper has made himself the laughing stock of Rome. I thought Germans had more sense.

Tune in next week when Kasper the Clown will try to tell us that he was not trying to reconcile Canterbury, since it was never separated from Rome in the first place. Comedy hour is over for now.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Now would be a good time for His Holiness to recognise S.S.P.X faculties or grant a universal apostolic administration to traditionalist Catholics, while all the attention is diverted to the Anglicans and Kasper the Clown.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

I have a question for Anglicans who intend to convert (Deo Gratias) to the Catholic Church.

The Anglican "Communion" is clearly in shambles.

But frankly, the post-Vatican II Catholic Church (at least the Latin Church)is clearly in shmables.

1. Just prior to election as Pope, Josef Cardinal Ratzinger made it cleat that the Church is in a state of incredible collapse.

Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) declared:

"How much filth there is in the church, and even among those who, in the priesthood, ought to belong entirely to him."

He likened the situation within the Church to "a boat about to sink, a boat taking in water on every side."

Om March 10, 2009, Pope Benedict XVI declared that "in vast areas of the world the faith is in danger of dying out like a flame which no longer has fuel."

Given the horrific state of the Catholic Church (similiar to the Anglican situation) that Pope Benedict XVI has portrayed, are you not somewhat hesitant to unite to a Church in said condition?

(Please understand that I am thankful that you intend to join the Church.)

Tim

Anonymous said...

Even our enemies, the Jewish liberals (presently coralled by Rabbi Rosen in the U.S.A.) must be distracted right now by this circus side-show of Kasper the Clown. One thing all Jews have in common is a very good sense of humour. Yet another reason for the Pope to strike while they're having a good laugh at Kasper's expense, and provide for the Traditional Latin Mass. S.P. is becoming a dead letter and it's time to put Mgr. Jordan of Reims in his place.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

http://www.sacbee.com/topstories/story/2327887.html

The above is a link to a Sacramento Bee article regarding Katharine Jefferts Schori's vist to and Q&A session last weekend at the Episcopal cathedral in Sacramento, California.

The following link is a photographic slide show of Schori's vist in question:

http://www.sacbee.com/photos/gallery/2327232.html

With few exceptions, the photographs depict an aged Episcopal congregation.

1. Is that typical within the Episcopal religious community?

2. Any opinions regarding Schori's remarks (I'd particularly appreciate comments from folks who intend to join the Catholic Church)?

Tim

Gideon Ertner said...

Kasper's swipe at the TAC is just hideous. As far as I see, there can be no question that this structure was, in part, put up for them. They are the only former Anglican group who has formally requested corporate admittance to communion - FiF certainly did not do so, even though a couple of their bishops did meet with the Holy Father, for they had no authority to request such a thing on behalf of FiF.

And while the TAC is not, technically, leaving the Anglican Communion as they've already left - Anglicanorum Coetibus does not define the groups it is speaking of in that narrow sense; in fact, it doesn't define the term at all! Since it only speaks of "Anglicans," one might expect that any group that considers itself as such, and that objectively has its origins within Anglican Christianity, would be covered by the document.

Symeon said...

Wait a minute - is Kasper saying that since people from the TAC aren't in communion with Canterbury, Anglicanorum coetibus doesn't apply to them?

I don't want to be disrespectful, Eminenza, but I think it is time you retire along with your interpretation of ecumenism.

Anonymous said...

a very weird statement by cardinal Kasper, very, very weird :

"The cardinal said that while the TAC leaders asked the Vatican two years ago to find a way for them to join the Catholic Church, they did not participate in the conversations that led to the pope's recent provision.

"Now, however, they are jumping on a train that already has left the station. If they are sincere, OK, the doors are open. But we cannot close our eyes to the fact that they have not been in communion with Canterbury since 1992" and therefore are not technically leaving the Anglican Communion to join the Roman Catholic Church, he said."

As far as we know, TAC is at the very beginning of this process so the statement that they were excluded from the talks is very weird ... It is directly contrary to what TAC said in the past two years also.
If "Abp" Hepworth is not concerned, with whom did cardinal Levada speak ???
With Forward in Faith which is very uncertain in its decision ?
However just 2 weeks before the public announcement by cardinal Levada, His Eminence Walter cardinal Kasper told with gravity that corporate reunion of Anglicans was absolutely excluded so maybe His Eminence is... not the best Curian source in this file ?
Or is it a German joke, knowing that the quality most Germans are totally deprived of is the sense of humour.

Strange statement indeed, thanks to P.T.K.P. to post this new Kasperite enigma.

Alsaticus

Anonymous said...

Dear Stefan:

Other than the TAC, the Province of Christ the King in the U.S.A. and one other Anglicn American group, most continuers have tiny splinter churches. You know, there is Bishop Bob, his maiden aunt, and an eccentric from across town. They worship in a telephone booth at the corner of Main Street and Main Avenue.

Apart from the spliner groups which are heading for extinction, there are Anglo-Catholics who are stuck in the Canterbury Communion. They must tolerate priestesses, bishopettes, and now sodomarriage. Let them choose between that and Vatican I!

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Symeon:

Yes, that's what this jackass Kasper is saying. He's beyond belief. What a poor loser. The best thing we can say about Kasper is that he's done little damage at his present post, since he's had almost no effect on anyone or anything. This really isn't all that much of an insult, though. John Paul II put him in this position because he knew that nothing could be done with it. The Protestants are moving away from the Catholic church as fast as their little (and getting smaller) legs will take them. The only Prots whose numbers are growing (at least on paper) are the Pentecostalists, evangelicals, Baptists, and other deranged people. Like our charismatics, these are people who are clinically insane.

As for the Orthodox, they are not interested in a Rome which has betrayed herself and, should Rome recover from her illness and become Roman again, the Orthodox would return to their long-standing positions against us. For them, division is good politically. The Orthodox have remained true to their traditions only because Westernisation is still limited in Russia and in Greece. Once the McDonalds & rock noise cheap anti-culture takes over, they will find themselves in a pickle.

Notice how the Armenians Apostolic and, above all, the Assyrians, who no longer really have good reason to avoid union with Rome, are still refusing it? This, again, is political.

I get the feeling that Kasper has already been told that the Pope accepts his resignation and that he just couldn't resist exposing his vile nature before the kiss-off. Let's hope the Pope will replace Kasper with Mgr. Jordan of Reims. That could neutralise resistance to S.P. in France if he appoints the right successor. We need to get Jordan out of France, just as we needed to get Hummes out of Brazil. 'Promoveatur ut amoveatur.'

P.K.T.P.

Jordanes said...

Mr. Perkins, as objectionable as Cardinal Kasper's views and opinions on this and other matters are, nevertheless we should take a lesson from verse 9 of the Epistle of St. Jude. Cool it on the ad hominem and name-calling.

Anonymous said...

Walter Cardinal Kasper, President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said the visit Nov. 19-22 of Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, primate of the Anglican Communion, to the Vatican "demonstrates that there has been no rupture and reaffirms our common desire to talk to one another at a historically important moment."


Let's see. The pagan Arch-Druid of Canterbury is visiting Rome at the end of this week and will stay until Sunday. Kasper is now fast approaching his 77th birthday.

Maybe we're in luck. Maybe Kasper will host (when he should roast) this heretic and then resign into oblivion. Kasper could heve convert to Anglicanism himself, although I'm not sure from what.

What's right about this picture? A Rome without Kasper is like a lamb without spot.

P.K.T.P.

Joshua said...

When in Rome, Rowan Williams stays at the Venerable English College: and celebrates the Anglican communion service at the altar in the College chapel - the one with all the depictions of those martyred under Henry, Edward, Elizabeth et al.

What an utter scandal!

English Catholics can be revoltingly craven toward their Anglican betters.

I hope the glorious company of martyrs have the victory by obtaining his conversion as a grace from the Lord. That would bring good out of evil.

LeonG said...

One may well cheaply ridicule Cardinal Kasper but it is the current regime in The Vatican that maintains him in his current position. Or is this position for life with immunity to prosecution?

Furthermore, the NO establishment is rife with Kasper-types, the neocatholic episcopate is replete with them and this is one very salient reason explaining a contemporary church that has become a symbol of contempt in the secular world. It "dialogues" but no one listens; it ought to discipline but it turns a blind eye; it tolerates but it really should condemn; it compromises but in so doing it ignores the admonitions of Sacred Tradition, Holy Scriptures and Our Blessed Lady in our own times.

In the meantime sexual perversion, financial & other abuses continue unabated without being properly addressed. Thus, they tear at the fabric of this severely disturbed institution while the world continues its downward spiral into empty materialism and godlessness. Many in the hierarchy of this confused church are in the process of losing not only their pastoral compass but their Roman Catholic one also.

Welcome to Traditional Anglicans, if it should so transpire. I certainly have scores of Anglican friends I pray to see convert. Let us hope they are not going to find worse here, for the present time at least, than they are leaving behind. Let us hope too that they discover The Holy Mass in Latin and the authentic beauty of Roman Catholicism perpetually guaranteed therein.

The alternative is not better than they will leave behind.

rev'd up said...

Tim,

Thank you for the quotes of then Cardinal Ratzinger. I was unaware of them, but I have sensed the truth of the situation he described for years.

Anglo-Catholics are in even worse shape. If Rome's ship is taking on water from all sides, it's at least still above water and savable. Anglicanism is not savable; it is little more than a burial society. Their boat has taken too many torpedoes - it's a lost cause or "a failed experiment" as one admirable ACA/TAC bishop recently opined.

I'm beginning to have a different view of V2. If not for that misstep, Rome would not have weakened to the extent that a corporate conversion of Anglicans would have been possible.

I do not share any enthusiasm with those that believe groups like the APCK (Anglican Province of Christ the King) or ACC (Anglican Catholic Church) or APA (Anglican Province of America) or EMC (Episcopal Missionary Church) or UEC (United Episcopal Church) will ever accept the terms of Anglicanorum coetibus. Those groups consider themselves "God's gift to rational Catholicism." In reality, they are the flotsam and jetsam of the Anglo-Catholic movement. They are cults of personality and buggery. They suffer from invincible ignorance, invincible arrogance or invincible concupiscence. Rome needs them like it needs a new hole in the head.

The TAC is the only group that currently is serious about submitting to the Pope's terms. Besides some others associated still with Canterbury, the TAC will be the only "continuing" group to come over en masse. But pray that the devilish self-aggrandizers and Donatistic "continuers" don't hold sway over too many TAC folk. They are even now wolves among the sheep.

Anonymous said...

PKTP, I like your comments very much, and I would LOVE to see your own, regularly updated blog!

Anonymous said...

"The folks (those who intend to convert ot Rome) inside Anglicanism insist that Anglicanism is dead-in-the-water.

Catholic churchmen insist that the opposite is true.

If, for example, Rowan Williams is yesterday's news, why does Rome portray him as a VIP religious figure?

Why does Rome portray the crumbling Anglican "Communion" as a revelant religious institution?

Does Rome know something about the health of the Anglican "Communion" that soon-to-be Anglo-Catholics don't know?

Tim"

Three reasons :

1. Abp (the "archdruid" like P.T.K.P. says with humour) Williams is vaguely "heading" the vast majority of what is called "Anglican/Episcopalian" in the world : numbers are of some importance to Rome.

2. Official ecumenism is a talk shop with separate ecclesial Communities like the Anglican "Communion" so cardinal Kasper is fighting for his job to keep talking without any other aim than ... talking and having a cup of tea with Abp Williams. [Probably the Abp is supplying the Cardinal with those scrumptious scones and maybe with a few Scottish pancakes so I can understand the addiction ... ]

3. There is Rome and Rome don't forget. I would not say that pope Benedict XVI and cardinal Kasper are in full agreement on anything. We know very well they disagree, they've done it publicly before 2005, on several serious matters.
The Kasperite Rome, which is not the Ratzingerian Rome, is STRONGLY attached to the Anglican "Communion" because this ecclesial body has promoted a sort of religious UN model for the Church and because they are the epitome of liberalism, this liberalism that the Kasperite Rome is desperately trying to infuse into the Unique Church of Christ, against Tradition, including Vatican II, and against the Magisterium from all popes to the present one.

That's why cardinal Kasper is sticking so much to the sandbox called Canterbury.

Alsaticus

craig said...

"The only Prots whose numbers are growing (at least on paper) are the Pentecostalists, evangelicals, Baptists, and other deranged people. Like our charismatics, these are people who are clinically insane."

Charity, please. You are not helping to convert any Protestants so long as you sneer Pharisaically at them like this.

They do not have the fullness of truth, but to call them "insane" is pure calumny. Many of these people have already given up more for the sake of Christ than you (and would have to give up still more to convert to Catholicism). They need to see the barque of Peter as a refuge, not as yet another attacker.

Jacob said...

A blog would definitely serve as a better conduit for Mr. Perkins' train of thought, I agree. I would enjoy reading his extended thoughts on why he expects the evangelical GAFCON group to eventually transition to Rome.

Jay said...

"Let's see. The pagan Arch-Druid of Canterbury is visiting Rome at the end of this week and will stay until Sunday. Kasper is now fast approaching his 77th birthday.

What's right about this picture? A Rome without Kasper is like a lamb without spot."

PKTP comments certainly add some touch of colour to this blog. Keep going, PKTP!

M.A. said...

I confess to being a PKTP fan also. He's one reason this blog is one of my favorites. No "fundie", sour-face scrupulosity on his part! Quite humorous.

All heretics are insane. :-)

Anonymous said...

Craig,

Come, come, it was clear from the context that my comments about evangelicals and charismatics was meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek, although I certainly also did mean to convey a certain disdain for what I consider to be an illegitimate expression of faith. I'm sure that many of them are good Catholics (the charismatics) but I do not and will not in any way, shape, or form ever accept their nonsense.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Yet again, I agree with Red'd Up, especially in his assessment of the 'continuers' in the U.S.A. At the moment, there are some continuer blogs which are trying to keep as many continuer groups as possible from accepting the Pope's offer. They work day and night at it. Their own splinter denominatinos, which are constantly dividing and merging and then dividing again, have no future.

I agree with Rev'd Up that most of these will not accept the Pope's offer corporately. The odd one might in time. However, many of their members will bleed Romewards as they see their own denominations go the way of the dodo bird. They will be an early and constant source of membership increase for the new ordinariates--but as individuals. Many 'regular Anglicans' (Canterbury Communion) will also bleed to the new ordinariates. There are many 'conservative Anglicans' who put up grudgingly with the horsemanure in their own Anglican churches and would have bled to Rome long ago had Rome's Mass not also been ruined by the N.O. Now they will have somewhere to go when they cross the Tiber.

Rome has what the continuers desperately need: stability. Even the TAC could not have easily hung together for much longer. It was too decentralised and too fragile. A few years ago, an American continuer group which had some cash-in-hand, went to India to entice a TAC diocese to leave the TAC (with its property) and join it. And it worked! I really admire Archbishop Prakash, the TAC leader in India. He has had to endure so much just to keep his people together.

Once the TAC is on board in the ordinariates, many of his people will find at least temporary worship homes in Latin churches. THey will keep their beautiful patrimony and yet become tied at the wrist to the Latin faithful. That will help them survive enormously; it will ensure their survival.

Despite some misgivings, I must say that it is cheering that the cultural treasure of Anglican prayer and hymn will be preserved by the Catholic Church it was designed to rout! Whatever we may think of the Cranmerian liturgy politically, it is of great value æsthetically. I'm betting that its existence in the Latin Church will help pull the N.O.M. in the right direction. Many who worship today according to the N.O. may find themselves going to these new 'Anglicatholic' Masses. Some will slide from there to the T.L.M.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

On Jordanes's comments (none of which is an argumentum ad hominem, but that expression is now frequently misused: it doesn't mean insults but refers to references to a person's bad moral behaviour as a way to undercut that person's arguments. If you mean insults, say 'insults'.):

I can only note that a certain Cardinal Ratzinger clearly made an intervention to implore John Paul II not to appoint Kasper to his current position. Cardinal Sodano is said to have favoured the promotion after representatives of the German Bishops' Conference went to Rome to threaten the Pope with revolt should he not name a prominent German liberal (read 'atheist'). At the time, it was widely reported that Cardinal Ratzinger referred to Kasper as, and I quote "a heretic".

Without using expletives, it is difficult to convey the outrage I feel against Kasper. His reaction to the TAC initiative reveals a deep-seated hatred against the traditions of the Church. He has been working hard to convert the Catholic Church into a Protestant denomination, and he knows full well what he has been doing. As Alsaticus says accurately, he likes the Canterburians because they have a U.N. model church. This is a man who would almost prefer martyrdom but for the other guy, the guy with the horns.

By the way, what I would write here about Claudio Cardinal Hummes, Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy, would make my comments against Kasper pale by comparison. But I know that I'd never get away with it, so I try not to refer to Hummes at all. Let us merely be cheered by the fact that Kasper is nearing 77, while Hummes recently passed his 75th birthday. May they be retired as soon as possible, along with Re, who is now also over 76.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

PKTP comments certainly add some touch of colour to this blog.

I agree and it would be sad if he was to be isolated in just another personal blog among thousands.
It's much more interesting for us all to read his contributions in this blog.

Our opinions deprived of confrontation in a public debate like on rorate are less interesting.

Alsaticus

Anonymous said...

P.K.T.P. 20:57 What do you mean by "( whom they miscall 'Pope Benedict')?

Jordanes said...

He means he believes "Pope Benedict" is an improper, overfamiliar style of address.

No further comments going down that rabbit trail will be approved. We're not hosting another lengthy debate on proper ways of referring to the Holy Father.

Anonymous said...

I think both PKTP's blog and his comments here would be a wonderful thing.

Neal said...

I would like to be added to the list of PKTP admirers; however, he should stay on Rorate. This is the only blog that I know of that has a decent amount of literate back-and-forth between opposing viewpoints. God forbid that it lose it.

Mother Micaela said...

I have read in the "New Zealand Catholic" November 1-14 that Archbishop John Hepworth, the leader of TAC is an apostate Catholic priest? Is this true and does it not make a difference to the Vatican's dealing with him?

Symeon said...

@Mother Micaela:
If that is true, it probably will make a difference regarding the Vatican's dealings with *him* (readmission to active priesthood), but I think it wouldn't affect the dealings with his organization (conversion)

The Anglo-Catholic said...

Mother Micaela:

Archbishop Hepworth's situation is complex -- and much exculpatory detail has not been made public -- but he is in no way an 'apostate' (i.e. one who has totally repudiated the Christian Faith [cf. CCC 2089]). This sort of intemperate and imprecise language is not helpful.