1) Messa in Latino now has pictures of the Solemn Pontifical Mass and Vespers celebrated by Archbishop Raymond Burke on January 24, 2010 in the parish of Artallo, in the Diocese of Albenga-Imperia. (This Mass had been announced by Rorate on January 15). Unfortunately, the Pontifical Mass of Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos that Rorate announced alongside that of Archbishop Burke, and which had been scheduled for January 16, was canceled at the last minute.
2) A video with pictures from the Epiphany Pontifical Mass of Cardinal Castrillon-Hoyos can be found here:
3) Messa in Latino is also announcing that Angelo Cardinal Scola, Patriarch of Venice, will be assisting at a Mass to be offered by Fr. Konrad zu Loewenstein FSSP on Saturday, March 6, 2010, 5:30 P.M., at the Church of San Simon Piccolo in Venice.
34 comments:
Enough of papal liturgies. Where is the decision making...
Communion rails back into churches, communion on the tongue, ban the girls altar servers...
Any word on when the Supreme Pontiff will be celebrating a traditional pontifical Mass?
I'm reminded of the support of Republican presidents for the pro-life movement. Somehow they never found the time to turn up in person on January
22 -- and all their wives were pro-abortion.
The Pope hasn't turned for, much less celebrated a public traditional Mass. And the lack of enthusiasm of the more important curial figures for the traditonal Mass is no secret.
The Pope's allegiance is to the reform of the reform, and he has never pretended otherwise. Tradition can only be a spear-carrier in that scenario.
"The Pope's allegiance is to the reform of the reform, and he has never pretended otherwise. Tradition can only be a spear-carrier in that scenario."
If you think that the pope is just going to snap his fingers and flip the church back to 50 years ago; that he wants to or if this is even possible; then you are in a dream world and will only be bitter and ignorant.
The 'reform of the reform' is the sensible direction that the vicar of Christ is moving the church in. Alas, some will never be content or realistic.
"Enough of papal liturgies. Where is the decision making...
Communion rails back into churches, communion on the tongue, ban the girls altar servers...
'
I agree. How many years does this POpe think he has to restore the Church...26....the same abount JP II had to wreck it? Doubt it.
He better hurry up and make some "return to Catholic tradition" decrees regarding the Holy Mass...or his whole pontificate except for "Summorum Pontificum" will have been a waste of time!
JP II's term was a waste of time...let's hope Benedict's isn't.
"The Pope hasn't turned for, much less celebrated a public traditional Mass. And the lack of enthusiasm of the more important curial figures for the traditonal Mass is no secret."
Time to retire these more important Roman Curial fixtures....Re (76), Kasper (76), Bertone (75) could be the first ones to get the boot. Hopefully in afew weeks.
Go Patriarch of Venice ! I'm assuming this guy has good chances of getting elected pope during the next conclave.
Re and Kasper will be leaving in the next few months.Bertone,however,was named to a five-year term in September 2006 and like Sodano before him was specifically thanked and asked to stay on when offering his retirement as Secretary of State at 75.Do not expect Bertone's replacement at any time before September 2011.He was CDF Secretary when the current Pope was Prefect,he is the Pope's choice as Secretary of State,as Camerlengo,and as Cardinal Bishop...he is not an "old regime holdover" like Re and Kasper.
Note also that a conclave held in 2014 would likely be presided over by Bertone (Re turns 80 that January and Bertone in December) as senior Cardinal-Bishop under 80 (Sodano,who as Dean would lead the pre-conclave General Congregations,and Etchegaray are already over 80).
Like him or not,I think that Bertone may be Benedict XVI's preferred choice for a successor in the shorter term (with Canizares for a longer term if he lives until Bertone's past voting).
It's very interesting to see Archbishop Burke using the "outlawed" fur cape on the Cappa. Is this a signal that some of the old vesture is making a come back like the choir cassock with the train, and the fiochi on the choir sash?
Cardinal Scola, 68, could be considered "moderate conservative", unfortunatly more moderate that conservative.
Not a traditionalist, but not a nutjob dissenter like Cardinal Re either.
He probably does not have much chance to be Pope.
I'm hoping for either Cardinal Cafarra (but he's 71), or our own Archbishop Burke, 61.
***However, I hope Pope Benedict XVI lasts long enough on his own for another 6-8 years more. Long enought to:
1). Restore the Sedia Gestatoria to general use for Pontifical audiences and Masses.
2). Create about 50-60 more Cardinals over the course of 5-8 years (as the worthless JP II crowd dies out or reaches 80)
3). Promulgates new, Catholic traditionalist rules for the Mass ( a "reformed" Catholic Mass which is very similar to the Tridentine Latin Mass...ad orientam Masses only, Latin, Chant, altar rails, return of the maniple, new rules for Church decor, communion kneeling, no altar girls, suppression of the "Sign of Peace" and the circus-like "Offertory Procession", as well as the suppression of all "Eucharistic Prayers" save for the Roman Canon and lastly, the suppression of "for the Kingdom, the power, and the glory...blah,blah,blah (which is used by nearly all Protestant groups).
4). A housecleaning of the Roman Curia
5). Suppression of the Council for "Inter-religious Dialog", as well as that for "Justice and Peace".
6). End of "WYD".
7). Suppression of Paul VI's illicit "reforms" which swept away centuries of Papal court, vesture, offices, Noble Guards, etc, and a re-institution of these traditions and groups.
AND FINALLY....
8). Authomatic excommunication for those even speaking about the idea of "women priests", and , 9)., the disbanding of the LCWR, National Collation of American Nuns, and all USA Orders of sisters that belong to both/either groups, and of European Orders which share similar views.
A big list, of which it looks like only 1, 2, and possibly 3 are likely.
Anonymous 19:05,
There are traditional terms for your view of these things: one is the maxims of the world; the other is the prudence of the flesh.
But even from a worldly perspective, you miss the point: the Pope is not interested in effecting a significant liturgical revolution: not in 50 years, not in a century, not ever. Any Benedictine reform of the reform will at best improve the production values. But the Novus Ordo Mass without clowns and balloons and cheesy polyester chasubles in monkey colors is still the Novus Ordo Mass. And as long as the Novus Ordo spirit reigns, even getting rid of the cheesy polyester chasubles is an impossible dream.
If the Pope makes it to the end of April 2017(the month of his 90th birthday) only 38 sitting Cardinals will be under 80.That would mean 82 potential new electors.
This is just my personal opinion: For many traditional catholics there is a hope that the church will return to the traditional expression somehow, someday. I think that you guys are wrong on this one. The Novus Ordo is here to stay, probably forever. And traditionalists will remain pretty much a wing, maybe strong and organized, but just a group. It is not this Pope, or the next one. The novus ordo, the liberal wing will remain, whether like it or not.
It is pretty much what already happened with Anglicans, also with many protestant groups, and even with Orthodox Christians.
Nobody can escape to this reality. I know, it sounds a lack of faith or lack of hope. But we have to face it. Both "wings" are here to stay, and for many, many years, maybe forever.
Wishlists maybe are good for venting, or dreaming. But it is not going to happen. The only thing Popes can do at this point, is to keep balance, play a little bit on each side, keep them happy, keep them waiting for something to happen. But is won't. And this Pope, better than anyone so far has understood that keeping balance is to give some power to each one, keep them busy in the power struggle while he stays back, or even worst, away of Rome like JP II.
But with Benedict XVI is right there, in front of our eyes. You can analyse his actions, his words, you'll see this balance. He won't break it.
"It's very interesting to see Archbishop Burke using the "outlawed" fur cape on the Cappa. Is this a signal that some of the old vesture is making a come back"
No. It means that it's cold in winter.
"It's very interesting to see Archbishop Burke using the "outlawed" fur cape on the Cappa. Is this a signal that some of the old vesture is making a come back like the choir cassock with the train, and the fiochi on the choir sash?"
Yes, several "youngish" Bishops=especially traditionally minded-and thousands of young priests are ignoring the mean-spirited and wrong dictates of Paul VI regarding ecclesiastical vesture.
Young traditional priests have a particular dislike for this Pope (justifiably so), and are ignoring all of his rulings regarding. A lot of young Roman priests are doing so too. They deserve a standing ovation for bring back these elements of Catholicism, just as Paul VI and his cohorts deserve 30 minutes of resounding boos! Traditional Catholic vesture is in...big time in Rome.
However beautiful, I think the traditional movement would be better off without the display of extravagant and antique vestments. Somehow, I don't see the average diocesan bishop in them.
When did they fall in disuse?
"This is just my personal opinion: For many traditional catholics there is a hope that the church will return to the traditional expression somehow, someday. I think that you guys are wrong on this one. The Novus Ordo is here to stay, probably forever. And traditionalists will remain pretty much a wing, maybe strong and organized, but just a group..."
If it were not for the promise of Our Lady of Fatima I, too, would most likely be of the same opinion. But with the fulfillment of heaven's promise, there will be a time of heavenly peace in the Church - and therefore, in the world; a peace which will enable a restoration of all things in Christ! The fullness of TRADITION will triumph in a glorious resurrection!
The NO will die and be no more. Of this, I am sure.
anon 12:26 said, "Yes, several "youngish" Bishops=especially traditionally minded-and thousands of young priests are ignoring the mean-spirited and wrong dictates of Paul VI regarding ecclesiastical vesture."
If only they would also ignore the rest of V2!!
I pray they put on sack cloth and ashes and go dig up the statuary they buried or smashed and re-adorn our Churches.
Say No to the NO boys, en masse.
I think that Mr. McFarland's post is correct. Some people here hope for too much. I don't see the evidence to suggest that Benedict XVI is a traditionalist. What I do see is that he is more 'conservative' than was John-Paul II who, for all his faults, nevertheless did begin a process of restoration (even though he also continued the Revolution at the same time).
Revolutions are fast. The 1960s Revolution really only spanned half a decade (about 1966-71), and this coincided with a revolution in the Church. Paul VI became relatively conservative in his lsat five years, then came the rest. At this rate, we can only hope that the next pope or the one after will really reverse what has gone before. So we should be more realistic in our expectations for this pontificate.
Here are some items we can expect:
1. Some partial agreement with the S.S.P.X on a few matters, and only a few, plus a recognition of its faculties by Rome. I am less sanguine at the prospects of an international particular church for tradition.
2. Bringing in the Anglo-Catholic Anglicans. Unfortunately, at the momemnt, Cardinal Levada and company are trying to trick them into accepting a N.O. Offertory and only N.O. eucharistic prayers (cfr. Article III of A.C.). The liberals never give up.
3. A reform of the reform in which the Traditional Roman Offertory and Words of Institution are restored at least as options in NewMass, plus a few other restorations (perhaps in Pentitential Rite #1, the Indulgentiam restored). However, it will still be a Mass so full of Bugnini options that any priest can continue in a clown Mass spirit.
4. Abolition of Communion in manu in the Latin Church, and perhaps restoration of reception whilst kneeling. But this Pope won't ban Altar boyettes. He fears the feministas.
5. This Pope is withdrawing from the wilder œcumenism of John Paul II. While Benedict XVI does visit mosques and other places of false worship, he apparently doesn't pray there. It's an improvement. John Paul II did pray with infidels but did not utter the same prayers at the same time. If he had, we would have been led into an irreversible crisis. The next step, for the next pope, is to avoid the houses of false worship altogether and return to the standards set by the last 250 popes.
6. This Pope is restoring some of the musical grandeur of the Church and some of her ceremony, and that is important. But he won't restore the title Patriarch of the West or put back the tiara on the arms. He continues to represent himself heraldically as if he were an Anglican bishop, and this is a great scandal. Heraldry is not some irrelevancy at all: it is pure symbol. It is meant to convey a message and the one is conveys suggests that the Pope is just the Bishop of Rome.
This Pope is doing much to restore the Church but he will only go so far. Meanwhile, once solidly Catholic countries are legalising inverted marriage and abortion. The sexual abuse explosion continues unabated and this Pope's seminary document on the subject is a severe scandal. This Pope is also slow to discipline the very worst priests in the history of the Church, such as the Canadian 'Fr.' Raymond Gravel, a man who should have been defrocked and excommunicated ages ago.
So little done, so much to do.
P.K.T.P.
They "fell into disuse" when Paul VI issued a sweeping ban in 1969.
Dear CAP, New Catholic and Jordanes
I have some very good news from Toronto. Archbishop Collins is no friend of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and in spite of SP and 2.5 years of Papal support for the Ancient Ordo of the Mass, there are only 5 Masses said throughout the entire archdiocese of 4 million souls each Sunday, and maybe 1 or 2 during the week. So with that in mind, here is some great news I just received about a Solemn High Mass to be said on Candlemas. This is a first in decades! Here are the details:
We are pleased to announce that on February 2, Candlemas (Feast of the Purification of Mary and Presentation of the LORD) a Missa Solemnis will be celebrated by Father Howard Venette, FSSP assisted by some rather eager and enthusiastic Deacons and Seminarians!
For those who may not be familiar with the Solemn High Mass, this is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da9pijpZ0gM&feature=related
This is a first folks! The first Missa Solemnis outside of the Oratory (or SSPX) in over 45 years, the first in Toronto by the Fraternity of St. Peter, the first at St. Brigid’s in decades, the first Candlemas Missa Solemnis in probably a half century in this archdiocese!
So, I am hoping that you will come to fill the church.
February 2, 2010
Feast of Candlemas
Candelight Procession
Missa Solemnis
St. Brigid’s Catholic Church
Woverleigh Boulevard north of Danforth between Coxwell and Woodbine
7:00PM
Facebook Event: http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=269901451770
Deo Gratias et Mariae!
In Jesus, Mary and Joseph
Knight of Malta,
Toronto, Canada
Dear Knight of Malta:
Thanks for that great news. It makes me want to return for a visit. Toronto is, of course, the centre of the universe and the unofficial capital of Canada. Ottawa? If it disappeared into thin air tomorrow, noboday would even notice.
P.K.T.P.
P.S. How's Fr. Gavigan doing these days?
Dear PKTP
Fr Gavigan by all accounts is doing well. SP brought upon him great trials. Prior to July 2007 he had a "home parish" of sorts but a new priest came in at that time and kicked him out. As such he is only able to travel around between St Catharines, Hamilton and Newmarket on Sundays doing the best he can at 75+.
But his spiritual fatherhood is nourishing literally thousands of families.
God bless him and Mary keep him.
Thanks for asking.
Knight of Malta, Toronto, Canada
The problem I have is this.
1/The Pope confirms there are limits to what he may do to the liturgy. Yes he is a custodian.
2/The Council did not authorise the vast majority of liturgical changes forced upon us. The bishops envisaged readings in the vernacular. I wider selection of scriptural texts etc. and only slight changes
3/ It was Bugnini and Weakland who mislead Paul VI. The Sacrosanctum committee thought up 3 new eucharistic prayers, suppression of many things. Destroyed ancient prefaces. These liars and deceivers manipulated many an caused the break with continuity. They dropped the batton. They threw it away. Now we must search for it.
Did you know Weakland (vices we all know about) and Bugnini (Free Mason) boasted in cafes in Rome of how they gained the confidence of Paul VI. Boasted of their liturgical destruction.
This is enough to bring the whole 1970 missal into disrepute.
One priest I know said yes it is all try. But what we have has been accepted by the bishops! That does not pursued as obedience was drilled into bishops and clergy in the past. Look what happened to Archbishop Lefevre when he did not change. I remember well that old ultramontanist reflex of being told all the rubbish that has happened was comanded by the pope.
The pope is not a despot but caretaker and watchdog of tradition. The rest changes of itself!
Because of these things the modern liturgy does not add.
It is the venacularisation that has given it its power in the minds of many laity. They do not know what we have is not authentic. It is just too hard to accept as reality is frightening!!!
I doubt that the Holy Father is likely to offer the TLM.
He's made it clear that the TLM will be offered on a limited basis throughout the Latin Church.
He's made it clear that the Novus Ordo is the primary Mass of the Latin Church.
The Pope is attached the Novus Ordo. He will permit the TLM to be offered; but as he made clear, the TLM will be confined to relatively few sites.
I doubt that the Holy Father is likely to offer the TLM.
He celebrated it occasionally before his election as Pope.
But a traditional papal Mass is quite different, and a much bigger and complicated liturgy, than other kinds of traditional Latin Masses.
He's made it clear that the TLM will be offered on a limited basis throughout the Latin Church.
But not in the sense of, "I will only permit the traditional Mass to be offered on a limited basis." Rather, he observed that, given the fact that most priests don't know or desire to know the Mass, and most Catholics don't desire it, it would consequently be offered only on a limited basis.
That, of course, is something that will change as more priests become familiar with the old Mass -- and no papal or ecclesial legislation impedes the spread of the old Mass to as many places as it is desired.
I doubt that the Holy Father is likely to offer the TLM.
"He celebrated it occasionally before his election as Pope."
So? Today isn't yesterday. I'm interested in what Josef Ratzinger (His Holiness) does as Pope Benedict XVI.
He's made it clear that the TLM will be offered on a limited basis throughout the Latin Church.
"But not in the sense of, "I will only permit the traditional Mass to be offered on a limited basis."
"Rather, he observed that, given the fact that most priests don't know or desire to know the Mass, and most Catholics don't desire it, it would consequently be offered only on a limited basis."
Right.
TLM offerings will transpire on a limited basis.
Relatively few Latin Church priests and laymen desire to worship via Latin Masses.
Perhaps each diocese in the years to come will have one TLM-only parish with a couple of parishes that offer TLMs.
Rare will be the Latin Catholic who assists at the TLM.
There was an exciting story that Pope John Paul II offered the T.L.M. in private at Castel Gandolfo for a group from the I.C.R. I remember this very well. It was asserted by a number of people before Rome 'refused to affirm or deny it'. Does anyone know more about this? It would count as one instance for the last Pope while he was Pope.
P.K.T.P.
Dear Knight of Malta:
Fr. Liam Gavigan is a saintly man. Your report is interesting. On a previous occasion when I visited Toronto (where I grew up), he had just been booted out of a parish in the north of the City. This was in the mid 1990s. I learned from a parishioner at that time that, determined as usual, the instant he was expelled, he telephoned his entire congregation to inform them that he'd been admitted to the Little Flower Shrine chapel and they continued the very next Sunday with their next Mass! He never missed a beat!
P.K.T.P.
I doubt that the Holy Father is likely to offer the TLM.
He celebrated it occasionally before his election as Pope.
Yes, even in Ecône on the wave of SSPX-Holy See rapprochement in 1988.
But a traditional papal Mass is quite different, and a much bigger and complicated liturgy, than other kinds of traditional Latin Masses.
But the Pope is not bound to celebrate Papal Mass always.
That, of course, is something that will change as more priests become familiar with the old Mass
It won't change above a certain level unless the celebration will be obligatory. People are lazy, priests are lazy and comfortable too.
But the Pope is not bound to celebrate Papal Mass always.
What people are wondering about and desiring is not a private Mass but a public one, as an undeniable witness that the Pope supports the traditional Mass and its restoration.
What people are wondering about and desiring is not a private Mass but a public one, as an undeniable witness that the Pope supports the traditional Mass and its restoration.
What I was trying to say is that the demands of Papal Liturgy are no excuse. He can celebrate from the ordinary Roman Missal or Roman Pontifical when he wants to do so. The celebration might be semi-public, i.e. for priests of some institute or for a certain group on ocassion of a Papal visit or pilgrimage. Such semi-public Masses are celebrated in such circumstances, but it's always NOM.
He can celebrate from the ordinary Roman Missal or Roman Pontifical when he wants to do so. The celebration might be semi-public, i.e. for priests of some institute or for a certain group on ocassion of a Papal visit or pilgrimage.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't it the case that even those kinds of Masses when celebrated by the Pope are more than a usual pontifical Mass? If the Pope ever decides to celebrate a traditional Latin Mass, for many reasons everyone will know of his decision long before it actually happens.
"What people are wondering about and desiring is not a private Mass but a public one, as an undeniable witness that the Pope supports the traditional Mass and its restoration."
The Pope supports the Traditional Mass. The Pope supports the TLM's restoration. The problem is that the Pope's support for the above is, for all practical purposes, limited to the relative few Catholics who are attached to the TLM.
The "restoration" of the TLM could not possibly occur without the majority of Latin Catholics having been exposed (for years) to the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin.
As the Novus Ordo is the primary Mass of the Latin Church, the Pope would have to insist that bishops take steps to teach Latin Ordinary prayers to their flocks (and make Gregorian chant the primary form of liturgical music).
The elimination of Novus Ordo novelties, such as Communion in the hand, altar girls, Mass versus populum, and so forth, would also have to accompany the above.
The Pope has not pushed Vatican II teachings regarding the promotion of Latin among the Faithful.
The Pope has not pushed to eliminate Novus Ordo novelties.
Therefore, we're left with the reality that the "restoration" of the TLM will take place among and remain limited to a handful of Catholics — that is, Catholics who are attached to the relative few TLM-only parishes.
The true restoration of the TLM would mean the end of the Novus Ordo. But the Pope has made it clear that the Novus Ordo is here to stay.
If we indeed have to "uses" of one Roman Rite, then logic dictates that people who follow or prefer one form or expression should expect to see our Holy Father, one Pope celebrate the Extraordinary Form as well once in a while. Otherwise it is like having a Popeless head of a legitimate expression of the liturgy that is not a seperate rite like, eg; Dominican, and Ambrosian rites that do not have the expectation of the Pope celbrating in the rite. It is like having a political party with no visible head. To be true to the letter Sp, then we have a legitimate yearning to see our Holy Father celebrate in the form as well. We all, NO and TLM supporters look to Rome and the Pope as head of the Church. We should see both forms of expression of the one Holy Roman Rite. It is just logical.
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