Rorate Caeli

“In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved”

Once again Paix Liturgique has commissioned a Harris poll to gauge interest in the Traditional Mass – this time in Portugal in anticipation of the Popes visit. The poll was taken from April 29 to May 6 from a sample of 1433 people over the age of 18 living in Portugal. 950 of these considered themselves Catholic. Here are the results:

Question 1: Do you attend Mass?

Weekly: 11.7%
Once a month: 7.6%
On major feast days: 12%
Occasionally (weddings, etc.): 68.7%


Question No. 2: In July 2007 Pope Benedict XVI said that the Mass could be celebrated both in its modern form known as "ordinary" or "Paul VI" - in Portuguese, with the priest facing the faithful and Communion being received standing – as well as in its traditional form known as "extraordinary" or "John XXIII" - in Latin with Gregorian chant, the priest turned toward the altar and Communion received kneeling. Were you aware of this?

Yes: 26%
No: 74%


Question 3: Would you consider it normal or abnormal if the two liturgical forms were to be celebrated regularly in YOUR parish?

Normal: 44.7%
Abnormal: 40%
No opinion: 15.3%


Question 4: If Mass were to be celebrated in Latin with Gregorian chant in its extraordinary form in YOUR parish, without replacing the "ordinary" in Portuguese, would you attend?

Responses only from regular attendees (weekly and monthly)
- 29.5% would attend weekly
- 24% once a month
- 14.2% for major feasts
- 23.5% occasionally
- 8.8% never

Paix Litrurgique notes that there are currently only two regularly scheduled traditional Masses in the entire country. One extra-parochial Mass at Fatima and another offered by the SSPX at Lisbon.

65 comments:

Mark said...

And we wonder why things are so bad!? If 66% consider themselves Catholic, why do only 11.7% go to Mass weekly?

Long-Skirts said...

"... and another offered by the SSPX at Lisbon"

FATIMA
SINGS

We battle for Mass,
Daily it’s said.
We battle for schools,
Where God is not dead.

We battle for books
Published and read.
We battle for peace
Retreats are priest led.

We battle to shield
Motherhoods’ plight
To let her nurse child
At home day and night.

We battle for men,
Who quietly fight,
Support them in prayer
To lead us to right.

We battle for truth,
Professed in the Creed,
Say “NO” to the wolves
Who twist it indeed.

We battle for grace
We drink it like mead
It quenches our thirst
Refreshed so to heed…

All that is said
By wolves wearing rings
Corrupting the facts
With traditional slings.

But triumph is coming
Heart Immaculate brings,
‘Cause the war isn’t over…
Till FATIMA sings!!

Anonymous said...

Where, may I ask, is the dogma of the faith preserved in Portugal if only 11% of those who call themselves Catholics assist at Mass on Sundays and Holy Days?

I wonder if the Blessed Mother meant that the dogma of the Faith would be preserved in 11% of the Portugese people.

But one can say that about almost every country in the West.

Unless there is another part of that message after the "etc."

God bless
D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

The people vote all the time and the majority say they would attend Mass regularly or occasionly if offered. Wouldn't this bring people back to Mass? Would it be so bad to have every parish have one TLM celebrated in one time slot every Sunday and Holy Days? Priests and Bishops in a few years may see the faith rebound in areas where it has been in continual decline. They should allow it, forster, it and reap the benefits for having really fostered a renewal via the Tridentine Mass. Give it a while and some stability and it will prove itself.

Anonymous said...

This is no surprise. A priest told me about this twenty years ago, how bad things are in Portugal.

So much for the dogma of the faith being preserved. Portugal makes the United States look like a bastion of orthodoxy.

Delphina

Anonymous said...

And yet, there are those who preserve the dogma of the Faith in Portugal.

That preservation of the dogma of the Faith may not mean that the majority of the population will be those keeping the Faith.

It may well mean that, while many other places will become lands of total apostasy, in Portugal, a group will continue to treasure the dogma of the Faith.

Which dogma, by the way, is not completely dependant upon adherence to a particular liturgical form, even if that is the liturgical form of my own personal preference.

And, on the other hand, it may well be that, if the TLM were widely avaliable, only part of today's regular attendees would attend it, but a vast number of those who are no longer attendees and who are now only nominal Catholics would return and would attend.

I know that the Sunday obligation is an actual obligation, but it is hard to blame someone for not wanting to attend an irreverent, inexpressive Mass, that has little of the sacred environment and where it is often difficult to grasp the edifying teaching because of the many abuses and aberrations of modern liturgical praxis.

So the utility of those polls is always relative.

Anonymous said...

"It may well mean that, while many other places will become lands of total apostasy, in Portugal, a group will continue to treasure the dogma of the Faith.'

Anon
As I said before, there are groups in every country that still observe the dogma of the Faith.

So what we take from the Blessed Mothers words seems to be what has never been revealed of them namely
what comes after the "etc".
Therein lies the answer to "In Potugal the Dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc."

D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

For those wondering about the preservation of the Dogma of the Faith in Portugal, it would be good to read the book titled "The Mouth of the Lion" by Dr. David Allan White which is about Bishop Antonio de Castro Meyer and the story of his diocese in Campos, Brazil.

Why, you ask? Dr. White has a brilliant and logical theory on what our Blessed Mother meant...Brazil was a Portugese colony...read the wonderful book to find out the rest!

Anonymous said...

Well, either this proves Our Lady to be a sham or "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved," is a quote that desperately needs its context...

Afonso Miguel said...

Why do you think we (portuguese traditionalists) have to go to Fátima with this message?: http://tribunaonline.blogs.sapo.pt/112694.html

It was not for fun. It was because we are so many in Portugal, wanting the Traditional Mass, but we don't have the bishops with us. In fact, they don´t want us to celebrate TM at all.

But I can garantee you that Pope knows this situation and I hope that soon He will to do something for us.

We just want some freedom here, but is impossible with this ultra-modernist bishops. We are in a war here!

Anonymous said...

Makes one wonder which dogma of the faith (nb: neither dogma nor faith are capitalized) it is that will be preserved?

Anonymous said...

Delphina said: "So much for the dogma of the faith being preserved. Portugal makes the United States look like a bastion of orthodoxy."

Exactly. In other words: "FALSE APPARITION!"

Jordanes said...

Well, either this proves Our Lady to be a sham or "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved," is a quote that desperately needs its context...

There's another possibility: this particular utterance is not an authentic locution of Our Lady.

But the option favored by one of our many brave anonymi, that Fatima is a "false apparition," is clearly impossible.

Anonymous said...

... or, that holding the DOCTRINE of the faith does not necessarily require the "TLM" nor imply the PRACTICE of the faith.

Anonymous said...

Jordanes

Are you referring to Fr. Dhanis' "Fatima I and Fatima II" explanation? I have been reconsidering this myself in light of the events of the past decade.

Delphina

Jordanes said...

or, that holding the DOCTRINE of the faith does not necessarily require the "TLM" nor imply the PRACTICE of the faith.

Well, it needn't necessarily require the traditional Latin Mass, but I'd find it difficult to see how the dogma of the faith could be preserved in a country where it isn't practiced at all.

Are you referring to Fr. Dhanis' "Fatima I and Fatima II" explanation? I have been reconsidering this myself in light of the events of the past decade.

I'm not familiar with that explanation. I was only considering the fact that not every utterance associated with an approved apparition is always authentic, and offering it as a possible explanation of the apparent lack of fulfillment of this particular prophecy. I don't mean to say that I think that explanation is correct, but just wanted to throw it out there as something to think about. I also think the "not all of the Third Secret was released in 2000" explanation is possible, though I'm a little skeptical of it, as I've mentioned here recently. In any case, the sad state of the Portuguese Catholic Church doesn't weaken my conviction that the Fatima apparitions are genuine and that we should pay heed to the revelations that the Church has approved as worthy of belief.

Anonymous said...

Or the phrase could simply mean that a certain number of people in Portugal will remain loyal...that the flame will never die out completely. To argue that 90% of people in Portugal have to attend Mass for the Faith to be preserved is a little silly. The Faith was preserved in the catacombs of Rome at one time....

papist said...

Has anyone else considered that when our Lady spoke of "the dogma of the faith" she seemed to be referring to a specific dogma?

"Be preserved" doesn't necessarily entail wide spread preservation.

We could say that the TLM was preserved during the 1970's and 80's even though it's use was almost stamped out throughout the Catholic world.

JSarto said...

My friend Afonso Miguel is absolutely right. The situation of Portuguese Catholicism is simply outrageous. We have one of the most modernist Episcopal Conferences in the world, making the bishops of countries like USA, France or Belgium look traditional.
"Summorum Pontificum" in Portugal was deliberately sabotated in dioceses like Lisbon, Braga, Setúbal or Coimbra, not to talk about the Armed Forces Diocese(military chaplains).
The situation is indeed very serious and portuguese traditionalists are forced to take actions like this - http://tribunaonline.blogs.sapo.pt/112694.html - to make their voice heard.
But now, at least, His Holiness is quite well informed about all that!
Finally, I want to correct one point of your article. In Portugal, the SSPX offers also Masses in Fátima, Monforte, Reguengos de Monsaraz (Perolivas) and Santa Maria da Feira (Argoncilhe), near Oporto. Thank you for the SSPX, my God! The Franciscans Friars of the Immaculate offer too the Mass in Fátima.

M. A. said...

...or that little phrase could mean that withing the next 7 years something so dire will occur throughout the whole world to test the faith of the Church on the apocalyptic level, and that some nations will keep the faith while others will succumb to apostasy because they will not be morally strong enough to pass the trial. Perhaps those nations would then be the nations threatened with complete annihilation. Things certainly would be clearer if only the text containing our Lady's words were revealed.

I do know that Our Lord told Sr. Lucia to pray to the Immaculate Heart for "Portugal, Spain, all of Europe and the entire world" - in that order.

ACS said...

"But the option favored by one of our many brave anonymi, that Fatima is a "false apparition," is clearly impossible."

Why is it impossible Jordanes?

Anonymous said...

The Sept 2010 Conference of the Canons Regular of St John Cantius in Fatima will be a blessing to the people of the Land of Holy Mary, Portugal's nickname.

Go to the Canons' website to read all about the events...

http://www.canons-regular.org/go/news/read/extraordianary-form-conference-in-portugal/

Miles Mariae said...

"“In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved”"

This was obviously a promise attached to a particular period of time. In the same way that a 'period of peace' will be given to the world after the consecration of Russia.

Portugal had a period of great Catholic revival, this has now been poisoned by modernists.

the 'always' is obviously a difficult word, but it could still refer to within a particular epoc.

Another interpretation would be that the promise relates to a later date.

Oliver said...

The dogma of the faith they want to preserve is now called conciliarism which seeks to define the Church's past, present and future. All appearances of tradition are subject to the new creed. Cultural Catholicism with official slight of hand has been able to absorb this transition thanks to the naivity and ignorance of most people in the same way the fruits of social revolution are absorbed. Counting heads in the pew is thus a meaningless operation since the Church has been largely set aside.

Anonymous said...

Well, either this proves Our Lady to be a sham or "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved," is a quote that desperately needs its context...

There's another possibility: this particular utterance is not an authentic locution of Our Lady.

But the option favored by one of our many brave anonymi, that Fatima is a "false apparition," is clearly impossible.


I considered that possibility, but it did not seem to fit with everything I have read about Fatima and what Lucia is said to have said about it.

Btw, I apologize to the board for not signing that last post. I completely forgot to do so.

--Zakhur

Timothy Huw said...

The Novus Ordo mass in Portuguese is so awful I'm not surprised that only 11.7% can face it every Sunday. (E.g. "Et cum spiritu tuo" rendered as "Ele está no meio de nós" -- He is in the midst of us.) The unlamented ICEL 1970 translation is a model of fidelity by comparison. Beata Virgine de Fatima, ora pro nobis.

Anonymous said...

We know that the Catholic Faith is a seamless garment as St. Augustine says. To refuse to believe any one doctrine, all others which are held, are held not by faith, but by private judgement. Divine and Catholic Faith is necessary for salvation. We have a Dogma which states exactly this. That most Catholics have "reduced this dogma to a meaningless formula" and, therefore effectively deny It, would explain why, (a) so few are saved and (b) why a great chastisement is in the offing. We must offer the Faith to others because without It, they cannot be saved.

Anonymous said...

There are two articles on Rorate that show the Franciscans of the Immaculate offering the TLM. This order, while still a young one, is also holding the line on orthodoxy.

May their holy vocations

Prof. Basto said...

According to the "The Message of Fatima" document published by the CDF (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html), the utterance "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc.) was only included in Sister Lucia's "Fourth Memoir" of the appartitions, written on 8 December 1941.

In the Vatican publication containing the text of the "secrets", the utterance "In Portugal..." is thus only included in a footnote (footnote 7), that reads:

In the “Fourth Memoir” Sister Lucia adds: “In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc. ...”.

Thus, the weight of this particular utterance is to be assessed also considering the fact that it was not remembered in earlier memoirs.

We must keep in mind that the "memoirs" written by visionaries by command of the Bishops and of the CDF are accounts of the apparitions but are not themselves inspired texts.

So, the visionary remembered, when writting her fourth account of the apparitions, that Our Lady had said something about Portugal keeping the Faith.

The visionary then tried to express that in Our Lady's own words, according to the style used in the memoirs, in which Sister Lucia makes a record of the little shepherds' dialogues and conversations with Our Lady.

She remembered Our Lady's words as being "In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved" and then something else, expressed by the "etc". But it may well be that this "always" was not quite an "always", but rather a reference that Portugal's faith would be preserved during the periods of tribulation in question (the Russian Revolution, the Wars and the the Cold War).

Anonymous said...

I have never seen such a gaggle of ignorance about the catholic faith, as the commentators who are dissing Fatima on this thread!

Seems that none of them read anything about the apparition and don't know the meaning either of the word "dogma" or of the phrase "dogma of the faith", let alone how to distinguish between accidents and substances.

Mornac said...

Finally, I want to correct one point of your article. In Portugal, the SSPX offers also Masses in Fátima, Monforte, Reguengos de Monsaraz (Perolivas) and Santa Maria da Feira (Argoncilhe), near Oporto. Thank you for the SSPX, my God! The Franciscans Friars of the Immaculate offer too the Mass in Fátima.

--Thanks JSarto. I think Paix Liturgique was referring to regularly scheduled Sunday Masses. You make a very good point though. The vast majority of traditional Masses offered in Portugal are offered by the SSPX rather than by directive of diocesan bishops acting on instruction of Summorum Pontificum. It would be interesting to know just how many countries this is true of.

Anonymous said...

Anon 00:31, I would like to what "the dogma of the faith" refers, please. Thanks

Jordanes said...

Why is it impossible Jordanes?

Because the Church thoroughly studied the apparition and pronounced it worthy of belief, and because of the confirming miracle of the sun that was witnessed by thousands -- even witnessed by skeptics and unbelievers.

M. A. said...

Prof. Basto: "Thus, the weight of this particular utterance is to be assessed also considering the fact that it was not remembered [sic]in earlier memoirs."
_________________________________

It is an erroneous assumption to conclude that Sr. Lucia "forgot" to mention in her 3rd memoir what she subsequently included in her 4th.

1.) First of all, Sr. Lucia had an extraordinary faculty for recall.

2.) She only wrote on express written orders from her superiors.

3.) Before carrying out orders to write, she would spend time before the Blessed Sacrament.

Lucia's 3rd memoir was very brief, being only 12 pages long. This memoir was the result of the written order from Bishop Da Silva, an order to write for the express purpose of knowing everything that would touch upon the life of Jacinta which had not already been made known.

In this memoir, she relates thing previously unknown to us, not because she had forgotten to
write them in her 1st and 2nd memoirs, but because it was only then that she felt God wanted
them revealed. She completed the 3rd memoir on August 31, 1941, which she then handed over to Bishop Da Silva and Fr. Galamba on October 7.

But, at Fr. Galamba's insistence, Bishop Da Silva then ordered Sr. Lucia to write yet more in order to clarify, to shed new lights, to answer precise questions. For the 4th memoir, she was to even write down the secular songs the children used to sing! And she did, but not because she had "fogotten" before!

In Her own words, this is how Sr. Lucy undertook to write that 4th memoir: "After a humble prayer at the feet of our Lord and before the Immaculate Heart of Mary, Our Loving Heavenly Mother, asking the grace not to be permitted to write one word or even a single letter that is not for Their glory, I come now to begin this work, happy and at peace as are those whose conscience assures them that they are doing in all things the will of God."

"With the exception of that part of the secret which I am not permitted to reveal at present, I shall say everything." The 4th memoir was the most complete. Why didn't the Vatican-issued commentary reference this work, instead of the earlier one?

No, professor Basto. Sr. Lucia did not forget.

Anonymous said...

"Lombardi: Holiness, what significance do the apparitions of Fatima have for us today? And when you presented the text of the Third Secret, in the Vatican Press Office, in June 2000, it was asked of you whether the Message could be extended, beyond the attack on John Paul II, also to the other sufferings of the Pope. Is it possible, according to you, to frame also in that vision the sufferings of the Church of today for the sins of the sexual abuse of minors?

Pope Benedict: Beyond this great vision of the suffering of the Pope, which we can in substance refer to John Paul II, are indicated future realities of the Church which are little by little developing and revealing themselves. Thus it is true that beyond the moment indicated in the vision, one speaks, one sees, the necessity of a passion of the Church that naturally is reflected in the person of the Pope; but the Pope is in the Church, and therefore the sufferings of the Church are announced…. As for the novelty that we can discover today in this message, it is that attacks on the Pope and the Church do not come only from outside, but the sufferings of the Church come precisely from within the Church, from sins that exist in the Church. This has always been known, but today we see it in a really terrifying way: that the greatest persecution of the Church does not come from enemies outside, but arises from sin in the Church."

Tranlation: The world was not given the full content of the final secret.
D.P.H.

Cosmos said...

"In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved”"

Since the apparitions were given to Portugese children and contained warnings of horrible events unfolding in the world, perhaps it was simply a consilation: as bad as things get, know that the faith will not be stomped out in your country.

Anonymous said...

Important article on Pope Benedict's intention for Fatima. http://remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2010-05150-ferrara-fatima.htm

Tunevsk said...

DPH suggests that the full content of the third secret was not released.

He interprets Pope Benedict's words to the journalists on the Airplane to Portugal as implying that

But how is that assumption (that the full tenor of the secret was not disclosed), compatible with what was is clearly stated by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger himself in the opening words of his doctrinal commentary that forms part of the document "The Message of Fátima" issued by the CDF when he was Prefect.

In the Doctrinal Commentary, Cardinal Ratzinger states:

A careful reading of the text of the so-called third “secret” of Fatima, published here in its entirety long after the fact and by decision of the Holy Father...

Tunevsk said...

Why didn't the Vatican-issued commentary reference this work, instead of the earlier one?

You tell me. All I know is that the Vatican chose a certain memoir and only included the "In Portugal..." line as a footnote, adding that it was only included in the fourth memoir.

So, it is the Vatican document - not me - that implies a lesser strength.

MKT said...

Dear friend,

It is shocking that some of you even muse that Fatima was a false apparition, after so much support from the Popes.

St Jacinta and Francisco Marto were not canonized in vain, one hopes!

The metrics used to gauge the health of the faith are useful but do not singularly capture the gravity of today's dilemmas.

Mass attendance is a good general indicator of faith.

But in my humble view, use of contraceptives, frequency of confession, divorce rates, percentages of a population that believe that their nation should formalize in the constitution the Catholic religion as the state religion (in nations that are primarily Catholic), are also important factors in the enterprise of understanding just how far down the world is.

10-11% weekly MAss attendance, when one considers Portugal's low birth rate, among other factors, may in fact translate to 0.5% actual fidelity rate. Malta for example still has laws against divorce and abortion, and defines itself in its constitution as formally a "Catholic" state, but it has one of the lowest birth rates in Europe (which is already saying alot).

Our Lady likely revealed in the etc a mass apostasy of such proportions that She wanted to assure the little visionaries that their nation would always have a small remnant of faithful believers who hold the "dogma of the faith". Nor would this be exclusive to Portugal and thus the fact that in France, Italy, Malta and the US, the dogma of the faith may always be preserved does not detract from the statement.

The statement ending in etc is such a fundamental, most ubiquitous and oft repeated part of the Fatima apparitions that the fact that the Vatican commentary in 2000 relegated it to a foot note is not really very material.

Our Lady's pattern was to give the children a vision and then an explanation of the vision. On JUly 13 1917 she gave them the vision of hell, and explained it to them.

The vision described in the 2000 document is that - it is a description of a vision, but it contains no words of Our Lady as did the other revelations to the same children. The etc is what contains the words of Our Lady describing the vision revealed in 2000.

Rather than being prideful in dissing Our Lady, or the Fatima apparition - as Jordanes notes elsewhere remember the real Miracle of the Sun experienced by 70000 people and reported on by the Masonic run newspaper at the time - accept Her words for what they are. Clearly the etc, with a prequel like "dogma of the faith will always be preserved" and associated with a vision about faithful laity, priests bishpps and the Pope being executed in a city of ruins contains some ominous bodings. In humility, therefore let us pray our Rosaries for the certain triumph of Her Immaculate Heart, which She also foretold at Fatima in 1917.

Sincerely, MKT

danphunter1 said...

Tunevsk:

"Pope Benedict: Beyond this great vision of the suffering of the Pope, which we can in substance refer to John Paul II, are indicated FUTURE REALITIES of the Church which are little by little developing and revealing themselves."

Not all has been revealed.
The Secret is not all about events of the past.
According to Pope Benedict XVI.
D.P.H.

Prof. Basto said...

The Secret is not all about events of the past.

According to Pope Benedict XVI.


Agreed. But that does not mean that THE TEXT of the Secret, has not been fully disclosed.

In 2000, Card. Ratzinger wrote that it had been fully disclosed, and I believe what he wrote.

Tim said...

there are 2 texts.

danphunter1 said...

Prof Basto,

There was more than one text.

M. A. said...

"TWO TEXTS"

Prof. Basto, that you would put your trust in a Cardinal of the Church is certainly understandable and often the wise thing to do. But if one considers that Cardinal Bertone's opinions - and that is all they are - do not stand up to scrutiny, then it is incumbent on a true disciple of Truth to investigate, because we are called to be followers of Truth and not of men.


Contrary to What Cardinal Bertone says, we know that there is a missing text not released by the Vatican. And we know this because of the impeccable witness of Cardinal Capovilla, former secretary to Pope John XXIII who himself read the text not yet disclosed, and whose own handwriting appears on the envelope containing that missing text.

Pope Paul VI: "How come on the envelope there is your [Capovilla's] name?"

Capovilla: "John XXIII asked me to write a note regarding how the envelope arrived in his hands with the names of all those to whom he felt he should make it known."

Dr. Solideo Paolini(to Capovilla): "Therefore....there are two texts of the Third Secret?"

Monsignor Capovilla: " Precisely so!"

I really would recommend reading Antonio Socci's THE FOURTH SECRET OF FATIMA.

M. A. said...

From the Remnant article: "It would seem, then, that we are dealing with a missing text
that would predict a great chastisement having to do with the telltale phrase that both
Sodano and Bertone have avoided like the plague for the past ten years: 'In Portugal, the
dogma of the faith will always be preserved, etc.'”

"Our entire civilization is hurtling toward an abyss opened up by its own apostasy."
+++++++++++++
As in the time of Noah when his neighbors laughed him to scorn while he busied himself for one hundred years to build the ark which would save him and his family, so it is today. God has sent a warning through His Mother, and He has essentially said that to save oneself, one must enter into the New Ark, the refuge which is none other then the Immaculate Heart of Mary! It appears that He likewise is giving us one hundred years of warning.

It certainly isn't very ecumenical, is it? That is why Church modernists scorn, deride, ignore, or dismiss Fatima. It upsets a post-conciliar mindset of mutual respect for, and tolerance of false religions. Such people cannot possibly believe that God wills for Russia - entire nations - to convert to the True Faith, much less that it be accomplished through the mediation of the Immaculate Heart of Mary who is publicly and solemnly invoked. That they cannot accept this, is surely a sign of weak Faith, or even the complete loss of it!

In looking through my papers, I came across this quote which exemplifies the vision of the
kind of Church leaders who would either outright dismiss Fatima, or at best relegate it to being nothing more than an optional pious devotion.


VII periti Karl Rahner: "The victory of the vernacular in the Church's liturgy signals unmistakably the becoming of a World Church, whose individual churches exist independently in their respective cultural phrases, inculturated, and no longer a European import."

Contrast that with the words of Cardinal Pacelli: "I am worried by the Blessed Virgin's messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul."

Two different mindsets, two different visions. One is Truth, the other is a diabolical lie! Pre-conciliar Church, or post-conciliar "vision" ? Fatima is the support of Traditionalists!

Anonymous said...

The Vatican website says that Pope John Paul II consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and in fact, asked the Orthodox bishops of the world to join in as well.

Cruise the Groove. said...

"The Vatican website says that Pope John Paul II consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and in fact, asked the Orthodox bishops of the world to join in as well."

Anonymous,

Can you please post the exact quote or the link to the Vatican website that says that Pope John Paul II Consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and asked the Orthodox bishops to join him?
Thank you

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Cruise the Groove, I tried but could not find again that Vatican website link. A Google search instead turned this one up:

http://www.fatimafamily.org/index.php?main_page=page&id=49

Anonymous said...

Anonymous,

The site that you post a link to does not say that the Holy Father Consecrated Russia by name per Our Ladys request but rather says the following, and this is not an official Church statement:

"March 25, 1984 - Pope John Paul II having sent invitations already in December 1983 to the worlds bishops, including Orthodox, to join him on March 25, 1984, he had Bishop Amaral of Fatima bring the Miraculous statue from the Cova da Iria at Fatima to the Vatican for the Collegial Consecration of the world and Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary."

Pope John Paul II did not Consecrate Russia, according to this unofficial statement, but the world and Russia,
which is not at all the same thing as Consecrating Russia.
Pope John Paul II, never mentioned Russia in the 1984 consecration, or "entrustment" as he called it.

Christ in Scripture always asked His Church to be specific in their prayers.
Just calling for a consecration of the world, which had been done several times before 1984, in the 20th century, is not in keeping with obedience to Our Ladys [Gods] command to Consecrate Russia with all the worlds bishops on one specific day.

Also, most of the Ortodox bishops did not join in the consecation/entustment of the world in 1984.
Our Lady asked the Holy Father to Consecrate Russia, by name, on one specific day with ALL of the worlds bishops.
Neither the article you cite nor any other statement that has been released officially or non officially by the Church has ever, ever stated that Russia has been Consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, on one special day with all the worlds bishops, per Gods command,
unless
the Consecration took place in secret.
We must continue to pray for this command of God to be carried out.
God bless.

D.P.H.

M. A. said...

The Fatima Family Apostolate is a creation of the late Fr. Robert Fox, and the vehicle through which he was the first to proclaim that the consecration of Russia as our Lady requested had been done. Fr. Fox is an unreliable source because his testimony has been proven to be false.

No official Vatican statement has ever backed him up. They left him to flounder in a sea of untruths.

Anonymous said...

No official Vatican statement has ever backed him up. They left him to flounder in a sea of untruths.

24 May, 2010 01:28
----------------------------------

Ditto Fr Gruner?

M. A. said...

Anon 14:48 said:
"Ditto Fr Gruner?"
_____________________
No, anon 2010 14:48. Fr. Gruner can substantiate what he says, unlike Fr Fox. But, should it interest you to know, the info I have presented is taken from sources other then Fr. Gruner.


If JP II truly believed he had complied with God's requests, why didn't he himself say so? After all, we are dealing with a message of apocalyptic proportions, a message which heaven authenticated with stupendous miracles never before witnessed by mankind, a message as dire as the warnings to Noah, and to Lot, a message by which Sr. Lucia had been made to understand that we were engaged in the final confrontation between Our Lady and satan!

The proper consecration of Russia will be a victory signal. It will be the sign that satan's time is up! Who can honestly believe that a lowly nobody such as Fr. Fox, through an insignificant publication can be the spokesman to herald the conversion of Russia, the triumph of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart and the subsequent era of Godly peace; moreover, a priest whose influence was limited to a very small number of English speaking readers?

One would think that news of paramount interest to the entire globe of humanity would instead be broadcast by the pope himself. But from the pope who supposedly complied with God's request, strange silence.

Fr. Fox initially attributed his "breaking news" to a cousin of Sr. Lucia, Maria do Fetal,who until 1989 had always said that Sr. Lucia maintained the proper consecration of Russia had not been done. Then, Maria proved her unworthiness as a witness when she claimed that in the past she had been "fabricating" but now she was telling the truth. Was that the only "proof" Fr. Fox could present to his readers? Only the most gullible would have believed him!

But then, Fr. Fox also said that he personally met with Sister Lucia and her Superior in
August of 1989 when he got it straight from "the horse's mouth", although we know that Sr. Lucia had been prohibited from meeting anyone other than family, unless permission were granted from then Cardinal Ratzinger or Cardinal Sodano, something not easily done.

From the CRC publication #224 - English ed.:

"Fr. Fox, as he himself relates, then very humbly asked the Fatima seer: 'The Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary...'" and Sister Lucy said that it had been done by the Pope.

"When?"

She answered: "'On 25 March 1984 in the chapel of the Pope's private apartments of the Apostolic Palace in Rome.'"

("To a question put to him concerning the manner in which Fr. Fox conversed directly with
Sister Lucia, his press agent said that he spoke in English with the Mother Superior, but not with Lucy.")

Now we know that Fr. Fox never met with Sr. Lucy! The man is not trustworthy, so how could anyone believe what he says?

There are more problems with his "testimony" but I leave you with that.

Anonymous said...

M.A., I think its almost impossible that such a Consecration can be done. There will be bishops who will refuse to do it. Others may be ill on the day, or may be traveling.
What do think?

Anonymous said...

"I think its almost impossible that such a Consecration can be done."

M.A.:
Of course it is possible.
Our Lady requested it and therefore Almighty God did.
He never asks the impossible from His creation.
God bless

D.P.H.

M. A. said...

06:48, DPH has answered for me. God never asks the impossible. Actually, what He asks is relatively simple. They could have done it when they gathered for VII, no? But John XXII dismissed our Lady.

As for JP II he objected that the Russian Orthodox would be offended should he mention Russia by name. (One can offend God, our Lady, but heaven's! we mustn't offend people!) Man often has his own vision of how things are to be done, and he will always find objections to God's designs.(I am not referring to you, but to our hierarchy who do not take the Fatima message seriously.) Most no longer believe in a Catholic confessional state, much less that an entire nation could convert to the Catholic Faith.

They will stubbornly pursue their own agenda for world peace in efforts which are bound to fail. As Blessed Jacinta stated, the peace of the world (and of course, of the Church) has been entrusted to the Immaculate Heart of Mary! Try as they may,THERE IS NO OTHER WAY!

Our hierarchy very much need our prayers and our sacrifices. It is not a matter of throwing stones, or even pebbles at them, but of being cognizant of dangers, of deceptions, so as not to be led astray by those whose faith, like Peter's is wavering. We are in that age when God is permitting Satan to attempt to fool even the elect!

Anonymous said...

Our SSPX priest was rather coy when we recently asked him about the status of the Rosary Crusade ( for the Consecration of Russia ). He thought the Rosaries " were still coming in ".
Now what if the Holy See ensures that the Pope does not accept this Rosary Crusade on the grounds that the Consecration has already been done?

M. A. said...

"Now what if the Holy See ensures that the Pope does not accept this Rosary Crusade on the grounds that the Consecration has already been done?"
+++++++++++
I certainly await the reaction of our Holy Father to the presentation of all those prayers, but it was to Our Lady that those rosaries were addressed, so it wouldn't really matter if the spiritual bouquet were to be rejected by the Holy Father.

Into the crusade, I came to believe that the reason other regularized Trad groups did not support this worthy cause, was for the precise reason that they didn't want to be publicly associated with those who question the Vatican line.

Good for the SSPX! They are free to do good that otherwise would be left undone because of the fear of offending the hierarchy!

Anonymous said...

M.A.

I know of several groups of FSSP and diocesan Mass goers who supported and prayed the Rosary Crusade.
It was open to everyone, and many outside FSSPX circles participated.
I even know of two Protestants who prayed the Crusade rosaries.

It will be successful.
Our Lady will see to that.

D.P.H.

M. A. said...

DPH, I am pleasantly surprised. I mostly "hang around" the regularized groups, and that certainly was not my experience.

God bless you. Nice "meeting" a fellow tinfoil hatter! :-)

Anonymous said...

"God bless you. Nice "meeting" a fellow tinfoil hatter! :-)"

M.A.
God bless you too.
Please forgive my ignorance,but please do tell me,what is a "tin foil hatter"?
D.P.H.

Jordanes said...

"Tin foil hatter" is a colorful way of saying "Believer in a conspiracy theory." It refers to people who wear tin foil (or aluminum foil) on their heads to prevent the federal government (or aliens from outer space, if there is really any difference between the two) from reading your mind or broadcasting mind-controlling messages into your brain.

It's not a bad name for people who believe that Barack Obama was born in Kenya instead of Hawaii, or that "Organized Jewry" is out to take over the world (or that there is such a thing as "Organized Jewry"), or that George W. Bush planned or allowed 9/11, or that Sister Lucia died or was murdered and the Vatican covered it up, replacing her with a doppleganger, or that Pope Benedict XVI is lying to us about the release of the entire text of the Third Secret of Fatima.

Anonymous said...

Carlos Palad of this Blog supported the Rosary Crusade. 3 million Rosaries came from Asia. I'm from Asia and I contributed a few.
Carlos, how credible do you think this figure is?.

M. A. said...

DPH, if you'd like, contact me.

doctorvici AT hotmail.com

God bless.

Anonymous said...

Can this be a proof of that the Portugeese people do preserve the Dogma of the faith? If the Third secret warned a.o.t against the changes in the liturgy, then people who really respect the Dogma of the Faith, do not go to the Novus Ordo Mass. Maybe many of them stay at home, say the prayers of TLM, receive spiritual communion, and live in the Faith of all times? Just a thought.