Rorate Caeli

Appeal: Catholics in Long Island and in the Tri-State Area

From a reader:
We are making an urgent appeal for prayers that our parish Latin Mass will not be eliminated in the coming weeks. Msgr. James Lisante, our pastor, informed us at a meeting yesterday that he is leaning heavily towards replacing the weekly Sunday 1:30 p.m. parish Latin Mass with an "English Mass." He cited, among other reasons for this substitution, low attendance and poor collections.

The weekly Sunday Latin Mass in the Extraordinary Form at Our Lady of Lourdes Church in Massapequa Park was established by the former pastor, Fr. Robert Mason, in September of 2007, immediately after Summorum Pontificum was issued. Two years ago when Fr. Mason retired, it was moved from a morning time slot to 1:30 in the afternoon, but has maintained a consistent attendance of between 75-100 people every week for three years. The current pastor was concerned by the $400 average weekly collection, he told us yesterday, which the business manager (present at yesterday's meeting to discuss the future of the Mass) claims is the lowest collection every week.

We are asking for prayers for our pastor, Msgr. James Lisante, as he makes this decision, and for the Bishop of Rockville Center, Bishop William Murphy. If you would like to call, urging them to please preserve this important diocesan Latin Mass, the contact numbers for both are below:

1-516-541-3270 (Our Lady of Lourdes Rectory)

1-516-678-5800 (Diocese of Rockville Centre Chancery)

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

Please allow me to understand: he sets the mass at lunch time and complains about poor attendance?

Jacobitess said...

I will pray most certainly, but perhaps the solution is to rally and make sure that everyone is tithing properly.

Please don't think I'm making any accusations or am trying to be uncharitable! Times are tough, and everyone is looking for a way to spare their lean wallets. I'm sure that Traditionalists, as they are often very large families in an anti-family culture, have it tougher than anybody else.

The only way though that my local parish in the States was able to save its Latin Mass was to prove that tithing was proportionate to attendance (in that case, it was not our beloved priest, but the mainstream parish that was calling for the Mass's elimination even by going straight to the bishop).

Again, don't think I'm pointing any fingers! If everyone is tithing justly, and the church just wants more money, then I shall pray most fervently for their hearts to be more tender. God bless you and your cause!

Anonymous said...

I am surprised at the priest making of the amount of the collections a criterium.
The Latin Mass should be celebrated out of reverence and respect for tradition. It is not a tool to maximise revenues.

Anonymous said...

God forbid that Fr. Lisante preach on the beauty and holiness of the ancient Mass, or encourage people to learn about it and to cultivate a devotion to it. But is Fr. Lisante really even relevant? Throw the Business Manager a few more coins and the Mass will stay.

Mundabor said...

If the Tridentine was the only Mass allowed we wouldn't hear these lame excuses.
As it was rightly said above, one cannot celebrate a Sunday Mass at 1:30 pm and complain about poor attendance.
At 1:30 pm one is supposed to sit in front of a good Sunday Roast.

Anonymous said...

The problem with LI which is where I grew up is that it has a poor information system. Parishes are disconnected from each other and each revolves around the personality of the Priest. The Latin Mass is tolerated but not promoted or talked about..People here on LI do not even know about the MP, but for a select few. The timing is awful for this Mass. At 1:30 on a Sunday, people who live close to the coast head for the beaches by that time. LI is a lazy, carefree Diocease. Change will not come easy here and Bishops and Priests have to change their attitudes about people not needing, not wanting, too busy, etc. This discourages LI folk. They like to go with the flow. Cathechis here is poor to use a good word. People who attend, please be generous, and for the Father in charge, reading this I have the image of the Priest counting each person who comes in then an immediate grabbing of the basket to see what they left. That just doesn't seem right. The Mass is for God and the Church, not the collection at some of the worst times in economic history. Promote it aggressively as if something valuable is going to be lost. We are one Church, encourage NO goers to attend this Mass once a month. As that famous television personality says, "Make it Work". Don't give up because LI'ers are traditionallly stubborn and hard to change.

RR said...

True, but I doubt the attendance was massive when the Mass was in the morning.

This is a call for traditionalists to evangelize the traditional Mass and dig into their wallets instead of blame the pastor and accuse him of not valuing reverence or counting coins, etc. That is a great way to blow whatever remaining goodwill might be remaining with the pastor and administrator.

That being said, collection at the Mass may not be indicative of how much people contribute. I usually contribute in a lump sum per year rather than at offertory. That way I get a tax deduction, and I know I am going to do it. I think more itinerant church goers are the ones that more often contribute most of their tithe in the plate.

Maura said...

Prayers are certainly forthcoming! Please consider a (quick and easy) marketing campaign of somesort. Even flyers in other local churches or in other local church bulletins, local businesses, anywhere to increase attendance in the next few weeks. Talk it up at the regular Sunday vernacular Mass and challenge each Latin Mass go-er to invite a few families. Ohhh...you could call or visit the nearest local Latin Mass and ask the people there to help by attending as well!

God Bless you and keep up the good fight!

Guillaume said...

Mass at lunchtime! Can someone from the northern Atlantic coast quote the attendance of a NO mass celebrated at 1.30pm?

If the reluctance about the MP was only a matter of money, the French should have all the masses they claim as collects among the "tradis" are more profitable than the ones in the NO masses.

Michael said...

I wonder if the business manager will eliminate the lowest grossing "English" Mass in six months?

Anonymous said...

Lisante has been pining for this for a long time. He has created a lot of divisiveness in the parish ever since he took over (there are other blogs and commentary on the topic) and has done away with many of the other traditional practices at the parish and has charted a markedly different course than the former pastor. On a practical note, I understand the Priest that says the Mass in Latin is elderly and has not been well, so I don't know who else would be able to offer it in the future.

Aside from that, I do not think collections should be an issue,especially for a Mass set so late in the day; however, I have heard another priest who is truly devoted to the Latin Mass say something very similar when stressing the importance of contributing to diocesan appeals, leading me to think the diocese must be making decisions regarding the Extraordinary form based on such factors as money.

The most pressing problem is that the other commenters are correct, there is hardly any awareness of or interest in the traditional Mass here on the island. More should be done by the diocese to promote it. I am not advocating a return to the indult (although the situation on LI is not much better off than in those days), but what is really needed is for a traditional group (FSSP, ICKSP...) to establish a parish for those who want the Mass here. Knowing LI and the intelligence and attitudes of most people here, I doubt there will ever be much interest in the Extraordinary form outside of those devoted to it.

Anonymous said...

I lived in the Diocese of Rockville Centre for 30 years.
Monsignor Lisante is more a friend of Broadway and soap opera actors than anything traditional in the Church, he needs our prayers.

As an aside the 1:30 TLM at OLL parish is not the worst time slot of the 4 parishes that offer the TLM in the over 2 million man and 100 mile long diocese of Rockville Centre, that honor belongs to the simple but beautiful Sacred Parish in Cutchogue that offers the TLM Low Mass, with the occasional Missa Cantata offerd at 3pm every Sunday.
The average attendance at this Mass is about 15 souls.

3PM!!!
Can you believe that!!!??
This Mass used to be offered at 11am and the average attendance was aproximately 25 souls.
I know the numbers should not matter, but apparently, according to the TLM hating Msgr Lisante, they do.
When you compare the 100 souls that assist at OLL and the 15 that assist at Sacred Heart, you can easily figure out that the powers that be are trying to squelch the Form of Mass that nourished every single canonised saint.
By the bye, the Schola director at Sacred Heart in Cutchogue is the only member of the schola and does an outstanding job by herself, with the occasional Missa Cantata.
Please pray for her.
I do not know about OLL, but the pastor of Sacred Heart refuses to advertise the TLM in the church bulletin, or on the Mass board in front of the church claiming the TLM is not an "parish event".
No wonder only 15-20 show up at Mass...and this Mass is offered in an area where there are thousands of Catholics.
The pastors do not teach or inform their flocks of this sublime Mass, they hope it will die on the vine, and they are doing a yeomans job of it.
Meanwhile the FSSPX Chapel in Farmingville is flourishing with three Masses per week and hundreds in attendance at each Mass.
D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

Long Island,

Let the Vatican EF report card people know of your situation. Tell your nuncio, Una Voce, FSSP.

Go public, get some media attention. The liberals don't like it when they are shown for what they really are.

Tell that business manager that the TLM is not about money. Is he trying to extort money to keep the mass? Sic.

Your situation shows the extent of equality of the two forms - I mean rites.

Suggest to your priest to fight for a good mass time. 1:30 - give me a break. Ask him to get tough. It may be that he is being lazy too.

Don't let the them hold you in fear of cancelling the TLM. If that happens, raise a fuss big time (as above).

If that happens you can in good conscience go to the FSSPX mass centre in Long Island.

Your in my prayers.

exths said...

While contributions are important, it's most important that the terms of Summorum Pontificum are followed.

There is no mention of tithing or collections as one of the conditions for the Latin Mass in the Motu Proprio, as I recall.

All it mentions is the famous "stable group" which attendance of 75-100 over 3 years certainly qualifies as.

Perhaps the people that attend the TLM don't wish to further the modernist agenda of the pastor and parish?

Just because a TLM is celebrated at a parish doesn't mean the rest of the parish is worthy of being financially supported.

The TLM attendees may not want their hard-earned dollars going to a pastor who has hired an openly gay-supporting music minister, for example.

Or the pastor may be giving heterodox sermons. You just never know.

This is just one illustration of the many problems which result when a Bishop will not allow a Latin Mass parish administered by a traditional order in his diocese.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

Catholic in and around Long Island can attend a SSPX Mass:

St. Michael the Archangel Church
631-736-6515
900 Horseblock Road
FARMINGVILLE
Sunday 7:00am & 9:00am
Saturday 6:00pm
1st Friday 7:30pm
1st Saturday 8:30am
Holy Days 7:30pm

Joe B said...

If a mass has poor attendance and collections, the options are to move it in time or location, or get a holier priest (St John Vianney's model - if the priest sacrifices enough, God will bring in the souls). Therefore, this is a condemnation of the priest as well as possibly the local souls.

At any rate, you should pray for any of those three solutions. After all, wouldn't it be better to have a 9 to 11 AM start time or a better location? And approach some retired priests or any others that might be interested in offering the old mass and let this priest go. Good riddance. Get a priest who respects the old mass, whether or not the bishop approves it. Use the canonical holes that apply in this state of crisis.

I still say those good old priests, now dying off, who saw the destruction coming and bailed out to "independent" status to spend their lives ministering to a small flock of local souls in a life of loneliness and poverty are some of this age's greatest saints, and the younger ones in general are quite capable of joining their ranks in Heaven.

Anonymous said...

To contact the Ordinary of the Diocese of Rockville Centre, Bishop William Murphy, you may contact his Excellency's direct e-mail at:

bishopsoffice@drvc.org

D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

Unfortunately this shows the state of the Church we are in....instead of Salvation of Souls it is the Green in the Collection.

Can one imagine if St. Don Bosco or pick your Saint, had the same attitude as this priest? Let us pray for him and the Church, the battle is growing more fierce as the next maneuver begins.

Anonymous said...

Has any pastor eliminated a poorly attended and low collection english mass? if that were true my parish would be down to one saturday evening instead of the 6 we now have

Anonymous said...

Saturday Mass at Saint Michael the Archangel Church in Farmingville Long Island is now at 8:00 AM followed by Schola practice. The First Saturday Mass remains the same.

This new change in schedule took place about a month ago.

We encourage all Long Island Catholics to attend and to join the
Schola if so inclined.

Thank you

Anonymous said...

RR,
I do think that traditionalists dig in their wallet far more than the average churchgoer. The fact that traditional order seem not to have any financial problem is rather eloquent in this regard.
But I do feel that Fr. Lisante should not say to his parishioners "more money or no Latin mass". It sounds really, really bad.
I do not think that it would ruin his life to insert the Latin mass in a more civil slot. Not even if he must add a Mass to his day.

I have the impression that the chap has put the Mass at 3pm in order to be able to complain and either get more money or get rid of the nuisance.

Can't imagine Vianney ever saying "more dough in the plate or no Mass, folks".

Anonymous said...

RR,
I do not think Vianney (or any decent priest, come to that) would ever say that either more money is forthcoming or there will be no more Latin Mass.

Anonymous said...

I will be the contrarian: There is no free lunch. Churches have bills to pay too. It costs money to say mass -- heating, cooling, lights all have to be paid for. If the TLM folks aren't pulling their financial weight, they have to live with what they get. IF the mass has 75 people, and it raises about $400 a week, that means people are donating about $5.30 a head.

Beyond money, I get the impression from some commentators that the TLM people don't really see themselves as part of the parish, and use it simply as a means to an end. If they had made themselves indispensable to the parish, they wouldn't risk being dispensed with. Suppose the Catechists, K of C's, RCIA sponsors and so forth were filled with traditionalists, would this happen?

The 1.30 Spanish mass by me is by far the most crowded mass of the day.

Mundabor said...

Yes anonimous,
no one says that those wanting a Latin Mass shouldn't do their part.
The problem might be on more than one front: if the priest has no real intention to celebrate a reverent and conservative Latin Mass, lovers of the Latin Mass will not attend it because they don't see the reverence they would wish.

If even the SSPX (in imperfect communion) is financially so well situated I really can't see the problem being in lovers of the EF looking for a free meal. The problem must lie elsewhere.

Also: all over the world EF Masses are becoming more and more common. I can't see a trend of supporters of the EF not contributing enough.

Anonymous said...

I commented earlier (Anon @ 13:43), I need to weigh in again:


Joe B @ 14:27, you clearly do not know what you are talking about. In no way is this a condemnation of the priest or local souls. It has nothing to do with the congregation, local population (although they may not have much interest in the traditional Mass) or the priest. I believe Fr. Mason is the celebrant of the Latin Mass on Sundays (I know he celebrates the Weds morning Latin Mass), and you would be hard pressed to find a Holier, more devout priest in the mold of St. John Vianney himself anywhere on LI. Fr. Mason supported Marian devotion and spent hours in the confessional; he was 'old-school,' while his replacement is decidedly not so. Thus, this has more to do with politics and a change in leadership at the parish.

I agree with the commenter who took the contrarian view; certainly, we all need to lend our support financially; however, the other posters are correct: this would not happen to a Mass in the vernacular or in the Ordinary Form.

Finally, despite the other posts, Catholics on LI should NOT attend the SSPX. There are other diocesan Masses offered in the Traditional Rite.

Sundays, 9:00 am
St. Ladislaus
18 Richardson Place
Hempstead, NY 11550-5099
celebrant is Msgr. Pereda

Louis E. said...

In fairness,how much longer will the status of the TLM as "mass of all the canonized saints" continue?

Chiara Badano (1971-1990) is scheduled for beatification on September 25th.

Anonymous said...

"Finally, despite the other posts, Catholics on LI should NOT attend the SSPX. There are other diocesan Masses offered in the Traditional Rite."

Anonymous, There are four "indult" every Sunday Masses in total, in a Diocese of over 2,000,000 Catholics, with a geographical size of 90 miles long 45 miles wide.

Two points to make here.
The church you mention, St Ladislaus in Hempstead, which offers the TLM every Sunday by the great and holy priest Monsignor Pereda who is friends with my family, is located in the westernmost geographical area of the DRVC.
It used to take me an hour and a half to drive there[80 miles] from where I lived in Suffolk County, and many cannot drive this far.
Secondly, the Holy See has stated, many times, that one may fulfill his Sunday and Holy Day of obligation at an FSSPX Mass.

St Michaels FSSPX Chapel, in Farmingville is located in the geographical center of the DRVC, and therfore is a lot more convienant for Catholics to get to.
From Hempstead in the west it takes only about an hour drive to drive.
From Riverhead in the east it is even less, about 25 minutes.

D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

There's low attendance and low collections precisely because parishioners are fearful of stuff just like this.

A personal TLM parish in Long Island (heck, anywhere in NEW YORK STATE) is long overdue.

+DR

Anonymous said...

One would think that Traditional Catholics would be entitiled to some recompense for 40 years of repression of the Tridentine Mass that was NEVER FORBIDDEN!

To the previous poster who insists we should not attend an SSPX Mass:

Why didn't the FSSP or the ICK or any other traditional order sanctioned by Rome petition the Holy Father for the Traditional Mass? And which of them has been able to discuss with the Vatican the root of the problems that beset us?

Since 1986 Cardinal Ratzinger and others knew that the Traditional Mass was never lawfully abrogated.
After 1986 they used an indult (bogus as it was after that year) to keep the Traditional Mass at bay. The SSPX has been offered a regularization of their status. They have declined it until the doctrinal problems attributed to Vatican II are resolved. They have recently petitioned the Holy Father to consumate the request of Our Lady of Fatima to consecrate Russia to Her Immaculate Heart and reinvigorate the 5 First Saturdays Devotion which was a much more common practice before Vatican II.

Why do you dislike the SSPX so much? Please name any other group of religious you think is worthier of our gratitude.

A.M. LaPietra

Anonymous said...

What on earth is the 'Tri State area'? I've never ever heard of it. Is this an American website or is it for everyone? Why do Americans just assume that eveyone else knows where their places are?


Change of subject:

Where is the canonical structure for the Orphans of the Holy Redeemer (formerly Transalpine)?

Where is it? Is Rome waiting for all its members to die of old age? If all of them die of old age, they will not have to confer a canonical structure. What a simple solution to the problem!

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

No personal parishes, please!
That is not the answer. It will only ghettoize the TLM which EVERY Roman Rite priest should be able to offer.
The TLM must be offered in the parishes so as to become a normal part of Catholic life.

Fr. Lisante is the pastor and therefore has an obligation to learn it. You could gently joke with him about when he will offer it for you. He may be hostile, but he may also be worried of what other liberal priests will think of him. If he is of good will, he might need a spark of encouragement so he can say, "My parishioners asked me to learn it!"

If that doesn't work, parishioners should write the bishop a respectful letter asking for a parochial vicar who can offer it.

You also need to organize and act as a group.

Anonymous said...

D.R.:

There is a personal parish at Troy, D. of Albany. It does not have its own church, however.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Msgr. Lisante's 2-year record at OLL is as follows:

1) 40% of OF weekend Masses eliminated
2) 75% of confession hours eliminated
3) the former pastor was banned from hearing confessions in the chapel after the daily 8am Mass as was his custom for 32 years
4) the decades-old monthly pro-life vigil Mass was banned
5) the decades-old monthly (very popular) Friday night Holy Hour was banned
6) the new music director hired by Msgr. Lisante directed a pro-sodomite, anti-Catholic, blasphemous screed entitled 'My Big Gay Italian Wedding.'
7) Msgr. Lisante says one Mass on Sunday and no daily Mass during the week
8) He does not hear confessions on Saturday

. . . and now he's coming after the Latin Mass.

Can anyone see a pattern here?

Anonymous said...

Dear D.P.H.:

First of all, what is the D.R.V.C.?

Secondly, actually, by U.S. standards, four every-Sunday T.L.M.s on Long Island is a heavy concentration. It might not be so in terms of driving to one place or another but, should you compare the situation to most dioceses, Long Island is a paradise of Latin Masses.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

D.P.H. writes:

"Secondly, the Holy See has stated, many times, that one may fulfill his Sunday and Holy Day of obligation at an FSSPX Mass."


Again, the Holy See has not made a statement to this effect that has adequate status in law. This is only the finding of a secretary of the P.C.E.D. It was signed only by him and not even by his superior, the Prefect. It has zero standing in law. The finding is correct, in my view, but it can be denied by local bishops at will until we have a statement by the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Canon Law or a statement published in the Acta.

Msgr. Perl's statement does have effect in Moral Law for those who honestly believe it to be correct. Its status in positive law, however, is uncertain and unconfirmed. I think the statemetn to be correct on the grounds of Canon 1248.1 but some professional canonists have rejected this. Is D.P.H. a trained canonist? No, he is not.

Perl has expressed this finding at least ten times now since the first admission to an Australian faithful in 2002. It is high time the Holy Father made is public, official, and legal.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

I'm blessed to be a member of a personal FSSP parish in the Diocese of Harrisburg.

I'm not blessed to have a mother-in-law living on LI (pun half intended ;^)

My mother-in-law lives in Patchogue. In the the past, whenever I traveled there with my family, I had to suffer through some of the worst Novus Ordos this side of Taj Mahony, or attend a TLM at St. Matthews, offered by a very elderly priest, who to my eyes seemed like he hadn't celebrated it in years.

This past weekend, however, I found paradise. I never knew before that the SSPX chapel was within less than ten minutes from my mother-in-law's. As I have no qualms about attending a Society Mass, understanding the Holy See's clear position, we went.

To my surprise, I saw a very friendly, vibrant community. It was the longest Low Mass I've ever attended, simply because so many were present for Communion. I'd say at least 300 people were there. The homily was splendid. The priest quoted Bishop Williamson at one point, but nothing that could possibly offend anyone. Folks were dressed nicely, but even somewhat more casually than I'm used to at my FSSP parish. All was very welcoming.

My wife and I were delighted to find St. Michael's. Unfortunately however, it looks like I'll never have an excuse NOT to visit my mother-in-law again!

~ Belloc

New Catholic said...

"What on earth is the 'Tri State area'? I've never ever heard of it. Is this an American website or is it for everyone? Why do Americans just assume that eveyone else knows where their places are?"

You are a Google-search away from an answer, dear Mr. Perkins.

No, this is as global (i.e. Catholic) a blog as possible. Just in the main page, there are posts on: New York state, Brazil, Belgium (Mechlin-Brussels), Rome, Liguria, Gabon, Poland, Ukraine, Bordeaux, Somerset, Cordoba, the Lateran Basilica, Spain (all of it), the Philippines, Turkey... I actually would like to have more American news, since we do have a considerable majority of American readers, but we deal with the information that is available to us.

Anonymous said...

Mr Perkins,

D.R.V.C is an abreviation for "The Diocese of Rockville Centre, outside of the Archdiocese of NY, the most populous of the diocese in New York state.
It was made a diocese in 1957 when Ven Pius XII broke it from the Diocese of Brooklyn and made it its own See.

As of 2009, there are over 2 million Catholics in the DRVC and those four indult parishes that offer the TLM are just a bone thrown to the dogs.
There are about 300 parishes in the diocese and only 4 have the TLM.
4.
The Tri-State area comprises New York Connecticut and New Jersey.
Canada does not really count anymore.
And yes, the Holy See does allow the faithful to fulfill Mass obligations at SSPX chapels.
The PCED speaks for the Holy Father.
DPH

Mundabor said...

On the consecration of Russia : Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary from the great Pope Pius XII, on the 7 July 1952, with the apostolic letter sacro vergente anno.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-xii_apl_19520707_sacro-vergente-anno_it.html

Amazingly (or predictably) I could not locate an English translation. But I am Italian myself and I assure you that there is no doubt about the intent or the formulation: the text is about the consecration of "all peoples of Russia" and the title is about "Russia" tout court.

The key passage is the following one:

"Noi, pertanto, affinché più facilmente le Nostre e le vostre preghiere siano esaudite, e per darvi un singolare attestato della Nostra particolare benevolenza, come pochi anni fa abbiamo consacrato tutto il mondo al Cuore immacolato della vergine Madre di Dio, così ora, in modo specialissimo, consacriamo tutti i popoli della Russia al medesimo Cuore immacolato..."

Pius XII has previously consecrated all peoples of the Earth to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. He explained that there was no desire to let the Vatican appear taking parts for or against the Russians in such delicate years, but in 1952 the time was come to proceed to the consecration.

I think that the Vatican should translate this little-known but important document and give the letter and the translation ample notoriety.

John McFarland said...

To those who won't resort to the SSPX,

Nobody much in the hierarchy or the pastorate is interested in making it easy for you.

Why should they be? After decades of having your faces pushed into the mud, obedience still comes first.

Those of you of any age have seen the continuing decadence of the Church, and obedience still comes first.

There isn't a scintilla of evidence that the Vatican is really interested in throwing its weight behind the traditional Mass, and obedience still comes first.

The Holy Father's magisterium reflects very little of the letter or spirit of the faith delivered once for all to the saints, and obedience still comes first.

Authority is not the source of the Faith; it is the handmaid of the Faith.

Those who don't understand that can expect to be treated like suckers, because they are suckers.

***

Mundabor,

There is no such thing as partial communion. Either one accepts the Faith and the authority of the hierarchy, and is in communion; or one does not, and is not.

Anonymous said...

"Russia has been consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary from the great Pope Pius XII, on the 7 July 1952, with the apostolic letter sacro vergente anno."

Sacro Vergente Anno may be a wonderful apostolic letter but it clearly did not satisfy the request made at Fatima.

Jordanes said...

Authority is not the source of the Faith; it is the handmaid of the Faith.

Not quite. Human authority is not the source of the Faith, but Divine authority is. "Authority" in fact comes from a word that means "creator" or "source." Divine authority certainly is not its own handmaid.

There is no such thing as partial communion.

In your opinion, that is. There's certainly nothing in the Catholic Faith that requires is to believe that communion is an all-or-nothing thing. Otherwise it would be impossible to receive communion but not all of the virtue and graces of communion.

Anonymous said...

$400 is large collection for a Mass.What is he talking about? I am sure an FSSP priest could take over!

Anonymous said...

Why doesn't Fr. Lisante or the parishioners put an ad in the Long Island Catholic regarding the Latin Mass. I'm sure if people were informed of this Mass through the Long Island Catholic others would surely attend and contribute to it. Maybe you would also be able to get one or two of the priests from the wonderful Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter in the Diocese. What a grace that would be. It seems that those who wish the return of the Latin Mass and the Latin Mass itself are always discriminated against.

Anonymous said...

I have attended the Latin Mass at OLL. You would not recognize it. There is no kneeling when recieving. No altar cards. No schola, no bell at the consecration, none of the proper garments, none of the servers know what they are doing, I can just keep going. I donated 200 missals, and they were put in a closet. I stopped going and went to St Matthews in Dix Hills instead where they care about doing the Mass correctly, as did many others.

Anonymous said...

Jordanes:

Mr. McFarland obviously meant that human authority is a handmaid of the faith. And so it is. He was not referring to divine authority.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

D.P.H.

I am sorry but your knowledge of Canon Law is woefully inadequate. Letter signed by only a secretary of a pontifical commission DO NOT MAKE LAW. Period. It has to be published in the Act Apostolicæ Sedis. As a matter of fact, I agree with Perl on this one but my personal opinion also DOES NOT MAKE LAW. Period.

It is possible that some to whom the letter is not addressed may think that it makes law. Those who honestly believe this are protected in Moral Law. This means that they do not sin in going to Society Masses in the belief that these fulfil the Sunday obligation. Whether or not they do fulfil the Sunday obligation objectively, however, is still open to dispute until something on this is published in the Acta. Do you get this?

Nobody wants a public statement from the Holy Father on this more than I do. But I will not sit here and tell myself fairy stories. I'd rather believe some things but it is better to be honest with oneself.

I hope not to sound prideful but I probably know more about the T.L.M. statistics than does anyone on this list. I am well aware of the population of Rockville Centre (which ranks third after Brooklyn and not second). My point is that your assessment of the sitaution there takes no account of a STANDARD. Rockville Centre has good access to the T.L.M. COMPARIED TO most U.S. and world dioceses, esp. when taking into consideration distances (yes, I know, one must also factor in time of travel in heavy traffic). The fact of the matter is that those in Rockville Centre are spolied brats compared to most American traditionalist, such as those in Philadelphia, for instance.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Belloc wrote:

"Folks were dressed nicely, but even somewhat more casually than I'm used to at my FSSP parish. All was very welcoming."

What an outrage this statement is. It is not coming from a real traditionalist. 'Folks' should listen to folk music, I guess. Welcoming? Sounds like something said by one of those N.O. 'greeters'. No thanks. What is needed at Mass is a bloody suit and tie. If we can show so much respect to an employer or a politician, why not to Almighty God? What ever happened to the concept of making small sacrifices and taking pains?

P.K.T.P.

Son of Trypho said...

Did anyone actually confirm the figures offered by the business manager? I would ask to see the official collection totals for each Mass over an extended period (say 12 months) to confirm that what is being said is true.

Anonymous said...

To P.K.T.P :

"D.P.H.

I am sorry but your knowledge of Canon Law is woefully inadequate. Letter signed by only a secretary of a pontifical commission DO NOT MAKE LAW. Period. It has to be published in the Act Apostolicæ Sedis. As a matter of fact, I agree with Perl on this one but my personal opinion also DOES NOT MAKE LAW. Period."

Technically yes.

However a few bishops, among them the Ordinary for Hawaï, excommunicated faithful for attending Mass at a S.S.P.X chapel. These faithful brought their cases to the Roman courts (Signatura I think) and the episcopal decisions were dismissed, declared null and void.

So there is no specific need to proclaim what is WIDELY known for years now, what have been written by Msgr Perl, what has been decided by courts, what has been trumpeted by cardinal Hoyos several times, that attending TLM at a Society chapel incurs no penalty whatsoever for the faithful.
Who has been excommunicated after attending the Great Jubilee TLMs with the Society priests and bishops all over the world, including in Rome, Paris, Lourdes etc. ? Nobody.

I'm even astonished that you could have the slightest doubt about it in 2010. Even the libs and neo-mods don't say the contrary nowadays.

The real question is what kind of "intermediate" status (or canonical practical agreement on the model of some Orthodox Churches in the Middle East) S.S.P.X can get during the continuing talks, for ex. to solve canonical problems raised by marriage and the like.
Attending Mass is, as far as I know, a solved issue. Positively solved.

Alsaticus

Reminder of official texts published by Bp Brunner in 1997 : the Response of the Congregation for Bishops and the response of the Pont. Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. The first one is excluding openly occasionnal participation to TLM as a motive for excommunication ; the second is saying the same but in a more obfuscated way.

Anonymous said...

The vast majority of people who attend the Latin Mass at OLL are not parishioners and have contributed little to either the life or finances of the parish. In fact, the chief architects of this most recent revolt against the new pastor have not contributed any money to the parish since the new pastor arrived, despite professing to be registered parishioners. Coincidence? I think not.

andyjourn said...

I had some contact with Msgr Lisante a number of years ago.

I am not aware of his views on tradition, but I always found him to be quite reasonable.

Could the people who have informed us about this problem, have an email address from Msgr Lisante? (as I'm in Australia)

We could ask him to reconsider his position.

James said...

One post mentioned attempted to justify going to the SSPX on the basis of travel time. This is nonsensical. From OLL to the TLM in Hempstead is significatly closer than from OLL to the SSPX. From Riverhead to Cutchogue is closer than from Riverhead to the SSPX, not to mention the Polish parish in Riverhead always had a well celebrated Mass in English. In addition to a number of options for properly celebrated English Masses there are also a number of Eastern Rite parishes. There is one in West Islip, maybe 25 minutes or half an hour West from the SSPX. Those living significantly east of the SSPX (too far to go to that Eastern Rite parish) can get to Riverhead or Cutchogue. I am sure finding other Eastern Rite parishes can make things even easier.

Going to the SSPX cannot be justified by a desire for a more convenient Mass time, to save 15 minutes in a car or because one would rather go to the TLM than some other form of liturgy (Eastern Rite or NO). It cannot be justified to avoid some of the less ideal practices permitted in the NO or even by minor points rubrical infraction (i.e. the priest not wearing a chausable).

If someone were living in an area where most priests were typically making up their own Eucharistic prayers, still celebrating such things as "Dignity Masses" and "Clown Masses", etc. etc.
that would be its own issue. I know one Rockville Centre priest who occasionally (years ago) would use non-biblical texts in place of Mass readings other than the Gospel but abuse of this degree is rare in the diocese.

The majority of those living in Rockville Centre who wish to can attend on a weekly basis either the TLM or an Eastern Rite liturgy. Alomost anyone with a car can attend either one of those liturgies or a well celebrated NO (it is possible that those at the Eastern end of the South Fork are too far a drive from such Masses, but are even further than from the SSPX). Even those who do not have transportation can usually attend a minimalistically correct NO in their own towns. This may not be so in all towns but it is almost inevitably easier to get to such a minimalistically correct Mass than to the SSPX (with the exception of a few people in Farmingville who might have to lose a few minutes to avoid the SSPX).

If someone on Long Island is going to the SSPX it is either because they are too lazy to make any significant drive or because they are picky about time or some other factor AND are not sufficiently bothered by attending the Mass of a disobedient priest.

Anonymous said...

D.P.H. now goes where not unprofessional should go:

"However a few bishops, among them the Ordinary for Hawaï, excommunicated faithful for attending Mass at a S.S.P.X chapel. These faithful brought their cases to the Roman courts (Signatura I think) and the episcopal decisions were dismissed, declared null and void."

The matter of the Hawaii Six (or whatever) has been raised before, and a note from the Holy See, as I recall, claimed that the particular circumstances of the case made it impossible for us to draw general conclusions about the ability of Society Masses to fulfil the obligation. As I recall, the Apostolic Signature did not say that the Hawaii Six were in the right. It merely REDUCED THE PENALTY, saying that an excommunication was too harsh. That does not equal endorsement.

"Technically, yes"

Technically my foot. This is the typical answer of amateurs. There is nothing technical about it. Look, D.P.H., consider your position carefully before you proceed. If the signature of Perl alone makes law here, then it makes law in all cases. Do you really want that? Consider the bad decisions he has made from the early 1990s on. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways.

I think that we shall have a resolution of this problem soon. Notice how Müller is whining again that he wants a clarification of the Society's status before they proceed next week with more ordinations--in his Diocese.

"Who has been excommunicated after attending the Great Jubilee TLMs with the Society priests and bishops all over the world, including in Rome, Paris, Lourdes etc. ? Nobody."

What a foolish statement this is. The question is not what the penalty is for attending Society Masses to fulfil the obligation. The question is whether or not they DO fulfil the obligation. Can't you get this distinction straight? If "Catholic" in Canon 1248.1 refers to the rite alone and has no reference to the status of celebrants, then it follows logically that attendance at a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy fulfils the obligation. Rome has never said this to my knowledge. But even if she did, your case would not be certain.

The personal opinion of even cardinals does not make law. Nor do the repeated statements of Msgr. Perl alone, without any other signature. Why the HELL do you think we have the A.S.S. in the first place? It is so that we shall know what the law says.

My point is this: as long as there is no specific court ruling on this matter, or a statement from the COMPETENT organ of the Holy See (the P.C.L.T.) signed by its president and not just its secretary, or a law published in the Acta, THERE IS NO LAW AND NO OFFICIAL INTEPRETATION OF THE LAW. As long as that remains the case, local bishops are completely free to deny the finding of Msgr. Perl, and they will. They will tell their faithful that they may not fulfil the Sunday obligation at a Society Mass. Priests will continue to say so freely from the pulpit. I even know of one who does so and on a regular basis.

What the PENALTY (if any) there is for attending Society Masses to fulfil the obligation is another matter entirely. The question is whether or not the faithful have failed to meet their canonical obligation. Period.

The matter of the fulfilment of the obligation is NOT a solved issue, much as I wish it were. Once it is solved, we shall have something to celebrate. Not until.

Why why why do you continually try to claim victory before the race is over. I want that victory as much as you do but I prefer a real one and not one grounded only in wishful thinking. Let's be honest about the facts. If Society Masses really do fulfil the Sunday obligation, then it is high time the Pope made this clear--and legally binding. Then the local Mahonys will have no leg to stand on. Are we clear?

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

"Perl has expressed this finding at least ten times now since the first admission to an Australian faithful in 2002. It is high time the Holy Father made is public, official, and legal."

I believe the Holy Father has spoken on this - although it's probably not the statement you want to hear:

"In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

"LETTER OF HIS HOLINESS POPE BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
CONCERNING THE REMISSION OF THE EXCOMMUNICATION
OF THE FOUR BISHOPS CONSECRATED BY ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE"
http://tinyurl.com/c3b5or

Anonymous said...

To the List Moderators:

I have some very good statistics for the members here and would like to publish some of them and connect them to the question of what effect a regularisation of the Society would have. I'd like to start with Italy. Where should I publish them?

To D.P.H.:

I apologise for being a bit too harsh in my last posting to you. It's just that your persistance frustrates me. But be assured that I want exactly the same recognition for the Society that we all want here.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

"He cited, among other reasons for this substitution, low attendance and poor collections."

I would be interested in knowing what the remaining reasons cited were. One comment indicates the priest who is saying the EF Mass is in poor health. If this was a consideration and there is no other priest available who is able to celebrate the EF Mass, then finances and attendance are a moot point.

Another commenter notes that many of the attendees at the EF Mass are not parishioners. If this is the case, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that the collections from the EF Mass at least cover the expense of offering it. Especially in very tight economic times why should the parishioners be expected to support free-loading outsiders?

Anonymous said...

4 locations that are not publicized. Cutchogue, Farmingville are 2 towns that to anyone who lives on LI are considered "wine country" or "way out there" On a map they look centrally located but the population density is way further west. To go to any of these two locations is like a vacation trip for LI ers. We are used to the way our towns are set up...Everything for each town is in close proxcimity to our homes. To drive from Babylon, a central location with good size population would for most require a map if they ever even heard of it to go to Cutchogue. Few people even live there. Hempstead, unfortunately is one of the poorer aeas of LI., yes they do exist on LI and is considered dangerous by many. I would not venture there for safety reasons. So that leaves Massapequa and Dix Hills (I think) as the only viable locations. But people here are used to doing everything within a 2 mile radius. It is the mentality. There are many beautiful Churches on LI. Why not in concentrated, decent areas close to what we who live here have heard of or find reasonable..Rockville Center itself, or Babylon, Islip, Merrick or Syosset..These are all close to parkways. Anyone who knows LI ers, knows that for us to drive from Babylon to Farmingville, in our minds would require getting out our passports for the trip. Maybe lazy and habitual in some sort of way, but really the locations chosen discourage people here from travelling the distance. We might as well go to New Jersey which in some instances is closer and faster to get to. LI with the summer traffic is unbearable. Try telling someone to drive to Mass in that, hardly going to happen. The Diocease could do its' part by working with us. They are well aware of the mentality here and that is part of their strategy. Uncharitable to say the least. And these were the indult locations I believe except for 1. The do nothing to promote the TLM and Bishop Murphy is not interested. Sad because the NO Masses are in bad shape here. All kinds of abuses. Recently hand holding during the Our Father is being encouraged in many parishes. Much of liturgical life here is a wasteland.

Anonymous said...

To the individual who donated the 200 Missals that are now sitting in the closet, please contact that parish and request them back. It is truly a wonderful, generous gift and perhaps another parish would be willing to sit them in the pews holders or something even if they do not have a traditional Mass scheduled yet. People before Mass may start asking about it, flipping through and it may generate converstation and interest. Maybe you could find an open minded Priest who would be willing to do that without suggesting the Mass outright to his parishoners. Natural development and curiosity will take over, and then he may be approached and asked to provide the Mass. Those Missals are valuable, too valuable to be allowed to sit in a closet. It is so offensive to the giver. I know you may not want to ask for them back, but take a firm stand and get them to somewhere where they will be used. Perhps 50 to several small parishes. Don't allow this Priest to do this to your genuine good will and help. I would do it myself if I can help you out. I am truly shocked by this.

Jordanes said...

why should the parishioners be expected to support free-loading outsiders?

A faithful Catholic can never be an "outsider" at a licit Mass or Divine Liturgy celebrated in a Catholic rite. As for the alleged "free-loading," the Christian standard is give as you are able, cheerfully, generously -- even if it's just a widow's mite -- and "freely you have received, freely give."

Anonymous said...

Anon. 18.49 writes:

"But people here are used to doing everything within a 2 mile radius. It is the mentality."

Well, this is a luxury we trads cannot afford. Again, consider the national and international situations. We cannot afford to just drift along. We often have to drive a great distance. I agree with this poster in general, yes, but considering the NORM out there, Long Island has it good.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

"Technically, yes"

p.k.t.p
Cool your jets and clear your mind
You are becoming confused in your frothing diatribes.
I was not the poster that posted the above. It was an "Anonymous"

Do you think that Monsignor Perl was lying when he wrote me a letter stating that the Faithful may fulfill their Sunday and Holy Day obligations at an FSSPX chapel, or was he just woefully wrong? [note, he did not say I could alone, but he said "the faithful", could fulfill the obligation.]
Because of that letter I am bringing my family to an FSSPX Mass occasionally to fulfill our obligation.
Do you have some authority that Monsignor Perl does not have, to make this call?
Either one can or cannot fulfill his obligation at an FSSPX Mass, and a high ranking official in a the PCED told me I can.
What are your Roman creds?
And yes, we all know that you posess one of those letters too.

D.P.H.

Anonymous said...

Anon. 17.34 shows how we can err to the one side (D.P.H.) or to the opposite side. The truth lies in careful distinctions. Here is what this anonymous ignoramus has written (I'll avoid the pejoratives when he has the guts to identify himself):

""In order to make this clear once again: until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."


This statement in no way answers the question of whether or not Society Masses fulfil the Sunday obligation. The anonymous poster, hiding and afraid to be proved wrong, fails to distinguish between the subjects and objects of rights. A right of one person to do something is separate from the right of another to benefit in some way from that action. In this case, the fact that Society priests, presumptively in Church law, have no right to offer Mass publicly is entirely different from the right of laics to fulfil their Sunday obligation by attending such Masses. Someone may have no moral right to give away $10,000 to strangers if his family needs that money. But this does not mean that the strangers have no right to accept it. They have a right to accept what is freely given to them.

Here is what Canon 1248.1 says against our anonymous poster:

"The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied whenever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day."


Now D.P.H. will say that Society priests offer Mass validly (nobody can doubt this) and that they offer it in a Catholic rite. Therefore, those who attend these Masses on Sundays fulfil the obligation. At least one canonist on the other side says that 'Catholic' here must be read in a wider sense as found in ecclesiastical law: those who are not incardianted and regularised are not 'Catholic' in the full sense meant in this Canon. For example, Greek Orthodox priests offer Mass in a 'Catholic' rite (since Greek Byzantine Catholics use it) and yet the Masses of the Greeks Orthodox do not fulfil the Sunday obligation.

Perl obviously disagrees with this reading, as do I and as does D.P.H. This is because Perl holds (rightly, I think) that the schismatic act of 1988 was not sufficient to create a schism. It tended to schism but failed to achieve it (just like the blow of an axe to a tree tends to its fall but might not fell it). Hence Society priests are, in Perl's view (and in mine), Catholic in the full sense. They are disobedients but not schismatics.

But we need an authoritative ruling to determine the matter. A letter signed by a secretary of a non-competent commission simply will not do, no matter how often it be issued. To know the answer, we need (1) an instrument published in the A.A.S. or (2) a ruling made by the competent body here, the Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts or (3) a ruling made by a tribunal.

The question is not settled. Not yet.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

D.P.H. writes:

"Do you think that Monsignor Perl was lying when he wrote me a letter stating that the Faithful may fulfill their Sunday and Holy Day obligations at an FSSPX chapel, or was he just woefully wrong? [note, he did not say I could alone, but he said "the faithful", could fulfil the obligation.]"

Yes, I have one of those letters too, and it says something even more shocking. (Moderators: consider this before posting it: maybe you should not post this.) It also says that even unaffiliated priets' Masses have the same ability to fulfil the faithful's obligation.

It doesn't matter. Perl does not make law. His judgement has force in Moral Law in regard to the addressees of his letters and those who believe they are included. Objectively-speaking, however, he does not make law and does not interpret it authoritatively.

I now see why the matter is so important to you. But it does not settle the question for our purposes. It merely means that the addressees do not sin in thinking it to be so and acting accordingly. I prefer to be a bit more scrupulous.

I think that these declarations from Perl are not just some accident. There is no way that he decided this on his own. I firmly believe that the ten or more letters on this he's sent out from 2002 to the present are a preparation for a public admission from Rome on this. But until we have that admission from the horse's mouth, we do not have a law or an adequate interpretation of law. Yes, I can dig up sources to indicate the authority of the signature of a secretary of the wrong pontifical commission. Even that in the right commission will not do. We need more than that.

P.K.T.P.

andyjourn said...

I ask the people who have made this complaint, to address a letter to Msgr Lisante, indicating their concerns, but in a charitable manner. And keep it as brief as possible.

(I hope it will not prove to be counterproductive by airing this grievance at Rorate Coeli. Oh, and by the way I am still looking out for his email address!)

If the Mass is eventually cancelled, and Msgr Lisante will not enter into any discussion about this, the next step would be to address a letter to Bishop Murphy, outlining your concerns.

If Bishop Murphy sides with Msgr over this, the next step is to write a letter to the Ecclesia Dei Commission in Rome, at present headed by Cardinal William Levada.

Their address is

Palazzo della Congr. per la Dottrina della Fede, 00193 Roma, Piazza del S. Uffizio, 11

Keep the correspondence as short as possible, stick to the facts, and no expressions of outrage.

Remember as you reach the diffeent levels, include all copies of letters you have sent previously, and their replies.

Hoping this can be of some help, from somebody who have visited various Vatican departments while in Rome, including the Ecclesia Dei commission.

Anonymous said...

Andyjourn, here are what I have:

info@msgrlisante.org

bishopsoffice@drv.org

krachy@ecclesiadei.org
(and excellent source of traditional news Ecclesia Dei periodical)


morrissey@drv.org

tMcKiernan@bishopAccountability.org
letters@yourcatholicvoice.org

This had been predicted from the beginning. He was sent here by the Bishop, knowing full well that he would not be a "SHEPHERD" to OLLMP,
but a "DESTROYER". His sweet demeanor lies, in the face of his actions. He is really a TV preacher and not a true Pastor. How many pastors that you know of, walk around with BODYGUARDS?
He has attacked the parish ever since the Blockley affair, and will not be satisfied until he has vented his anger by destroying the parish. Without anyone(Bishop Murphy) to rein him in, he will continue using his OBAMA Chicago tactics, to beat up on the parishioners. All of the letters, emails,telephone calls, are ignored by Lisante, and the Bishop, and his staff. Remember:
The floor of hell is lined with the skulls of Bishops! And I may add, the walls are lined with the skulls of errant Pastors!

Anonymous said...

You people talk about the Latin Mass as if you have a right to expect that any parish you choose be obligated to conduct it. How incredibly arrogant! By and large you people are not interested in the life of any particular parish, only in obsessively ensuring that all the minutia of your form of worship is carried out correctly. You folks need to remove your heads from your posteriors and realize there is more to being a Catholic than which rite you use at mass. If you are so intent on worshiping in the Latin Rite, do it in your own parishes.

Anonymous said...

Indignant NO parishioner says, "If you are so intent on worshiping in the Latin Rite, do it in your own parishes."

Please Lord, give us our own churches and parishes away from the pariahs.

He also says, "You people talk about the Latin Mass as if you have a right to expect that any parish you choose be obligated to conduct it."

Actually we do have that right. Time to wake up, sleepy Catholic.

Once more he says, "By and large you people are not interested in the life of any particular parish,..."

Not true. Speaking for myself - I only want my parish/Bishop to be fully Catholic. I am not interested in things that are not Catholic such as praying Taize, interfaith prayers that do not call for those outside the Church to convert, etc. I am not interested in serving the NO mass with its many abuses either.

Speaking of life in a NO parish - in my experience NO laity rule the roost because the priests are weak and gladly give up leadership.

The NO leaders are typically opposed to traditional Catholic teachings. They only want a trad to fit in when he/she compromises their traditional beliefs.

Lastly, IMHO the two forms don't mix. They are too far apart in what they believe and practise.

Be assured of my prayers,
Anon Anon

andyjourn said...

Living in Australia, I am not aware of the particulars regarding Msgr Lisante.

I first saw him on television in 1993 when I saw him giving a good verbal belting to Phil Donahue, over the sleeze that was promoted on his talk show.

I know also that he has been strongly identified with the prolife moevement, and is a member of Priests for Life, headed by Fr Frank Pavone.

I have also seen him in a debate with Professor Janet Smith (she works at the Sacred Heart Seminary in Detroit, but previously had tenure at the University of Dallas. She was fired from Notre Dame University because of her support of Humanae Vitae!)upholding the Church's moral teachings, against some other people.

I mention these facts because a priest with those kinds of credentials usually would have strong reputation for orthodoxy, even if he was not so enamored of the traditional liturgy. (At least he should tolerate it, if others like it!)

From what you have told me, he had just indicated that he is tending towards banning the Mass, but hasn't quite made up his mind yet. I would think the fact that he has let the worshippers know his thoughts on the matter, is because he is desirous of entering a dialogue with them, in order to assist him in making a final decision.

Remember that a dictator would just ban it without prior warning, he wouldn't be revealing his thoughts.

So the ball is in your court. This is an opportunity to express gratefulness to him for the opportunity to worship at Our Lady of the Rosary with the extraordinary form up until now, and that we receive a lot of joy from this. Also say you were encouraged by the tenor of Pope Benedict's words in Summorum Pontificum.

As one person has said here, perhaps the time slot of 1.30 pm discourages more attendees, and would he be prepared to have the Mass later in the afternoon, when everyone has rested.

You will never know how much you can achieve by actually attempting to communicate with him. (I know that can be a terrible problem, if he hides behind secretaries etc)

Don't be defensive, be kind, charitable, and support other ministries in the parish too.

These are of course general principles, and I am not claiming to know the whole story here.

I don't know if this is allowed on Rorate Coeli, but this is my email address, andrew.rabel@gmail.com. If anybody wants to engage in any correspondence about this with me, I welcome it.

My only desire is to help you all.

Just remember, "It is easier to catch more souls, with a spoonful of honey, than a barrel fun of vinegar". (St Francis de Sales)

Anonymous said...

Andy,

Thanks for all the great suggestions. You sound like a very nice fellow.

Just to clear up a few things:
1)Msgr. Lisante is the pastor; he does not celebrate the Latin Mass

2)the former pastor who is currently hospitalized used to celebrate the Latin Mass. He was replaced a few weeks ago by a priest in the parish who is very willing and able to say the Mass. He is an expert in Gregorian chant and was doing a beautiful job of celebrating the Missa Cantata before he was abruptly ordered by the pastor to stop saying a High Mass and begin saying a Low Mass.

3) There has been no "revolt" by the Latin Mass attendees. I do not know what the commenter was referring to, unless it was this request for prayers on Rorate Caeli.

4) Concerning the orthodoxy of Msgr. Lisante, perhaps these facts might be of help in determining how orthodox he is. He is on public record as saying that contraception, masturbation and homosexuality can all be justified in certain situations. If you'd like further details, I'd be happy to give you exact quotes from a talk he gave of which there is both a tape recording and a written transcript.

I know full well that several parishioners at OLL withdrew financial support a few weeks after Msgr. L. arrived because of their grave concerns about his heterodox views, questionable hiring practices and his absentee pastoral style.

Even if said parishioners attend the parish Latin Mass, what obligation do they have to violate their consciences by giving money to a pastor who is a known enemy of Catholic doctrine?

P.S. To the person who wrote that it's reprehensible that these people expect any parish to offer a Latin Mass, I would recommend that he/she read Summorum Pontificum.

There's one lady at Our Lady of Lourdes who was told yesterday by a curate in that parish that "Summorum Pontificum does not apply to parishes."

With clerical leadership like this, is it any wonder these poor people are asking for prayers?

Anonymous said...

Andy
Unfortunately your intent is indeed very catholic, but you have no idea of what takes place in New York. This Pastor , with the help of the Liberals in the parish, have investigated, and threatened anyone who would dare expose themselves, to constant attacks.By using an unprovable threat that Msgr had received, he has enlisted the assistance of the Nassau Police Department. We had one blog that would take apart everything that the Pastor had done, and he was forced out. There is a list of actions taken by Lisante, such as the curtailing of the Confessions for the school children once a month in the school. The cancelling of the children's mass.
The removal of confession late Saturday night for those that had to work that day. The refusal to allow the former Pastor to hear confessions after the 8AM Wednesday Latin mass. The refusal to allow the 10 year old practice of the Pro-life vigil, run by to wonderful twins. The monthly holy hour was banned, the wonderful Music director was forced to retire,and a pro homosexual music director brought in. The hiding of a Priest for about 10 years, and allowing him to say masses, hear confessions, marry couples, perform baptism's, hear confessions, ALL WITHOUT FACULTIES, AS THEY HAD BEEN SUSPENDED BY HIS BISHOP FROM THE MARIANA ISLANDS, which we believe sent Lisante over the edge, and he has done everything he can to hurt the good catholic parishioners, including the closing of the Catholic School this month. We will not mention his putting the statue given to our parish by pilgrims from Fatima, that was locked in a closet, and removed from the left side of the steps of the Altar. Let us not forget the removal of the crucifix on the Altar.......and on ....and on.
One woman questioned the Pastor as to why he didn't answer her letter,
and his answer was " I have turned it over to my attorney" Our telephone calls to the Pastor, and the Bishop's office were never returned. Our letters and emails were never answered.
I am sorry andy, you had seen the ACTOR PASTOR, not the real person behind that acting persona.
What these people have said, is 100% truths. His actions have driven away parishioners attending this wonderful parish. Unfortunately the Pastor listened
to those that cheer and clap at mass, which should be to honor the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ not a showplace to show approval for any Pastor or Priest.
For anyone to post here, and try to analyze something that they have not been subjected to, is quite a reach by any standard.
This pastor never attempted to meet with anyone from the beginning,so to offer meeting with him, after we have been brutally,
and visciously attacked, and not even protected by the Bishop, is quite a reach. I have posted the
email addresses for you, and if
you feel so inclined, and have some clout, your attempt to defuse the situation would be welcomed, but I fear that your efforts will be waisted.
God bless you

Anonymous said...

To Jacobitess:"

Tithings is not the problem, your solution pales when the prior pastor had left over $2 million dollars in the parish treasury, and the bulletins claim that the parishioners are giving in $17,500
every week, and this during the summertime, when people are going on vacation.
If it smells like a fish,
Looks like a fish,
Swims like a fish,
Can it be a Camel???

Thank you for your prayers we continue to pray, and please say a special prayer for our former Pastor , Robert Mason.
God Bless you.

andyjourn said...

Well if what is said is true here, it looks like a complaint to the Ecclesia Dei commission in the Vatican, will be inevitable.

All I was trying to do is see that you had dotted every i and crossed every t, because the Holy see will not be impressed by any complaint, unless they see evidence these things have been done.

I have some experience in having had extended stays in Rome, with Vatican departments. If you decide to proceed with this complaint, I want it done in such a way, that it will get the right attention.

Another question you must consider. I am not denying anything you say here. But is a public blog, a place where you should be outlining this gentleman's indiscretions, simply because if he hears about it, there may be unpleasant consequences for you, even for the administrators of RC?

That is the reason I included my personal email address, so that if we wanted to go into these matters minutely, we could do so privately.