Does this not belie the claim that the Pope wants first Rome to set an example and the world to follow, rather than govern by way of decrees? Perhaps my local parish priests have started following Rome's lead after all? This is similar to what they do in my parish.
There are balloons clearly visiible in the first video--high up near the roof.
It must be Christmas, therefore:
Happy birthday, dear Jeus, happy birthday to you!
We can also see some students in the audience, um, I mean, congregation. They are the people raising their hands to ask questions. I was expecting some prelate to appear and answer them in turn.
Just another American style 'childrens' Mass'... oh wait - there were no children. But there were lots of modified habits and lightly colored clergy shirts.
I think it is time for Pope Benedict to use his crozier to strike so as to protect his sheep. I think this people have spiritual worms. That is why wiggle!!!
The expression "Bordello Laterano" is extremely crude as it means "Vatican Brothel". One understands the intention but it still sounds very bad. Not as bad as what can be seen in the videos themselves, though.
If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox. Anything than like the Pentecostolist hand-waving Bible Christians.
I am so angry! They mock the Pope's liturgical reforms in his own Cathedral. I hope that whoever allowed this is made an example of. Nuncio to Iran would seem an appropriate promotion.
"The Church too must use the shepherd’s rod, the rod with which he protects the faith against those who falsify it, against currents which lead the flock astray." Pope Benedict
If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox.
Don't even say that in jest.
The expression "Bordello Laterano" is extremely crude as it means "Vatican Brothel".
"Lateran" brothel, rather. Interestingly enough, I was just reading about John XII, worst pope in all history, who was accused of having "turned the Lateran into a brothel." (I also just found out that my family is distant cousins with John XII. Figures . . . .)
Jordanes, after so many generations Pope John XII probably has tens of millions of cousins.
"If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox.
Don't even say that in jest."
Why? According to modern ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and documents of Vaticanum Secundum the Greek Orthodox Church is a "true particular Church". Catholics can receive sacraments from the Orthodox. Then why not?
"If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox. Anything than like the Pentecostolist hand-waving Bible Christians." No! Don't do that. All that matters is that you technically recognize Papal power. Of course His holiness seems powerless to exercise it in his own cathedral.
Jordanes, after so many generations Pope John XII probably has tens of millions of cousins.
Yes, I know. I said that in jest. If you knew my family, you'd get the joke.
According to modern ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and documents of Vaticanum Secundum the Greek Orthodox Church is a "true particular Church". Catholics can receive sacraments from the Orthodox. Then why not?
Because according to the Catholic Church's ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and the documents of the Second Vatican Council:
"although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward Catholic unity"
and
"Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion."
According to Vatican II and Dominus Iesus, the Greek Orthodox are not fully incorporated in the society of the Church, for they do not accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her. To leave the Catholic Church and join the Orthodox would be to refuse to remain in her and to reject the Church's entire system and all the means of salvation given to her -- and therefore it would objectively be a mortal sin, so those who defect to the Orthodox Church "could not be saved."
It's never appropriate to propose, even in jest, that one might commit a mortal sin. Just as it is wrong to contemplate suicide, so it is wrong to think about committing spiritual suicide by formally defecting from the Catholic Church.
Finally, Catholics may only receive the sacraments from the Orthodox under extraordinary circumstances (assuming an Orthodox priest would give the sacraments to a Catholic, that is).
If I could give a message to all members of the Church hierarchy, and especially to His Holiness, it would be: "You cannot teach a person the Faith one way and then imply that it was all a mistake; you cannot instill in him a fire for Christ and His Church, the sacraments, the Priesthood, and then throw cold water over him. You cannot hold the Council of Trent up as the example and then trash it with a modern vision of charismatic nonsense. This, simply, will not work!"
Submitted with due respect for the offices held by those involved.
"Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger The Spirit of the Liturgy (Pg 198)
You accept Dominus Jesus, and consider yourself a traditionalist?
No, as I've said before, I don't consider myself a traditionalist. I seek to accept and live in accordance with Catholic Tradition, not Traditionalism.
Or even a Catholic?
You consider yourself a Catholic and don't accept Dominus Iesus?
Yes, this is the pope's own cathedral. Yes, I cringe at what I'm seeing recorded here.
But context is critical: was this video recorded twenty years ago, and only now making its way to the Internet, or did it occur last week? The distinction is not insignificant.
I think people are being very unfair. I think this is a prayer meeting in the church not the Mass. The Catholic has always had a range of spiritualities and the "charismatic" way is now one of them; indeed the practitioners are among the strongest adherents to orthodoxy.
This does not seem to me to be the Catholic liturgy but a method of legitimate common prayer. And that is to be approved not condemned.
If this is liturgical abuse then we can criticise it and quite rightly, but let us be tolerant of prayer even if it is not our style.
I follow a benedictine spirituality, others franciscan of various observances, others carmelite. If I am to be honest I can't understand the whole St Teresa / John of the Cross mysticism since it seems so far from my preactical benedictinism. But, hey ho, they share the same faith.
The September 2001 number of SiSiNoNo offered two analyses of DJ that is summarized in the following reamrks from the first of them:
"On August 6, 2000, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith made public the declaration Dominus Jesus on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and His Church. This Declaration provoked opposition from "ecumenical" Catholics and was enthusiastically welcomed by certain Catholics who desire to be, and to remain, simply Catholic. It seems to us, however, that both those who oppose the Declaration and those who welcomed it either have not read it in its totality, or have not read it with due attention. In fact, this document is "perfectly in line with Vatican II" (Bishop d'Ornellas, auxiliary bishop of Paris) and accords with the aims of the "moderate" modernists who want neither a return to Tradition nor the headlong flight of the avant-garde (cf. Cardinal Ratzinger in The Ratzinger Report)."
The articles demonstrate the point quite effectively.
"But context is critical: was this video recorded twenty years ago, and only now making its way to the Internet, or did it occur last week? The distinction is not insignificant."
Messa in Latino notes that this event happened just a few days ago. The videos were uploaded on Youtube 4 days ago.
This is not a Mass, but a "prayer meeting". Anyone actually looking at the videos will realize this.
However, the question remains: are "prayer meetings" of this sort appropriate for any church, let alone in the Head, the Mother and Mistress of All Churches?
"However, the question remains: are "prayer meetings" of this sort appropriate for any church, let alone in the Head, the Mother and Mistress of All Churches?" ______________ Can anyone imagine the FSSP or the ICKSP holding this type of prayer meeting?? Not in you wildest dreams! So, no, Protestant-type song and praise worship has no place in a Catholic church.
Sorry since when was the Charisdramatic drivel Catholic? Charismatics are gnostics who want to love God or the effects of God like drug addicts or love sick teenagers. It is just for feeelings. When they don't feel "high" they think God is punishing them!
Those of us formed before Vatican II will not recognize this as indicative of the Catholic Faith or a "traditional" spirituality. If anything, it reminds me of a protestant, pentecostal service and though the participants may mean well, it most definitely doesn't belong in St. John Lateran. But, that's only my opinion, folks, and obviously not the one that counts.
All very interesting. But,at least there has been 4 or 5 EF Pontifical Solemn High Masses at the Lateran. Obviously there is someone there who knows that tradition needs to take the foreground.
Perhaps you should look into the history of charismaticism in the Catholic Church in the 20th century. It started when two Protestant ministers from a so-called pentecostalist sect laid their hands on certain catholic men who took it as a mandate to henceforth act as 'elders' in their own - catholic - communities. Does that sound very catholic to you? Do you think that that is the the catholic way of doing things?
As for charismaticism not being 'any worse' than certain other errors and abuses, that is quite beside the point. That cannot be an excuse for giving charismaticism a tick of approval.
To get the whole question of charismaticism in context read a book called "Enthusiasm" by Mons. Ronald Knox. This book examines in depth the issues involved in movements such as charismaticism and goes back a long way in history to track various currents that contributed to the development of such movements.
"As for charismaticism not being 'any worse' than certain other errors and abuses, that is quite beside the point. That cannot be an excuse for giving charismaticism a tick of approval."
I understand what you're saying here, and agree to a certain point. However, I myself did not give charismaticism a tick of approval. And it's unlikely that the charismatics were given a tick of approval based on errors that "traditionalists" tacitly accept in their circles.
Of course it should not be given a tick of approval, but since Vll, all sorts of Protestant and other religious forms of worship have been experimented with in some (certainly not all) of our churches. It's as if this been allowed, by our Lord, to happen so that we can see the effect of trying to reconcile with the secular world and other religions. We will get back to fundamentals eventually.
I have not read the book, 'Enthusiasm' by Ronald Knox, but my grandmother was a Protestant Pentacostal, and I attended one Sunday church service with her when I was ten years old. It was very frightening...like something from a scene out of the film 'The Exorcist,' but these people are looking were truth, but in the wrong places. They need a firm but kindly helping hand to lead them in the right direction.
At least the errors that are held by some traditional Catholics are somewhat contained in traditional Catholic chapels...which is a good thing, of course. They are not generally observed by the public as are the errors that occur in diocesan churches.
"Finally, Catholics may only receive the sacraments from the Orthodox under extraordinary circumstances (assuming an Orthodox priest would give the sacraments to a Catholic, that is)."
No faithful Orthodox priest who follows the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church will ever commune a Roman Catholic.
Orthodoxy attempts to be faithful to the beliefs and practice of the ancient Church regarding administering the sacraments of the Church *only* to those she believes to be members of the true Church. Likewise, Orthodox Christians are taught to not commune in other churches, as the ancient Faith did not permit such things, even in exceptional circumstances.
51 comments:
Very disturbing. Does anyone know what they're singing?
Hombre, nos pudo haber advertido del contenido de los videos.
(I would have appreciated a warning.)
The 'reform of the reform' clearly taking hold there...
Does this not belie the claim that the Pope wants first Rome to set an example and the world to follow, rather than govern by way of decrees?
Perhaps my local parish priests have started following Rome's lead after all? This is similar to what they do in my parish.
There are balloons clearly visiible in the first video--high up near the roof.
It must be Christmas, therefore:
Happy birthday, dear Jeus, happy birthday to you!
We can also see some students in the audience, um, I mean, congregation. They are the people raising their hands to ask questions. I was expecting some prelate to appear and answer them in turn.
P.K.T.P.
Just another American style 'childrens' Mass'... oh wait - there were no children. But there were lots of modified habits and lightly colored clergy shirts.
I think it is time for Pope Benedict to use his crozier to strike so as to protect his sheep.
I think this people have spiritual worms. That is why wiggle!!!
The expression "Bordello Laterano" is extremely crude as it means "Vatican Brothel". One understands the intention but it still sounds very bad.
Not as bad as what can be seen in the videos themselves, though.
Goes to show that the "reform of the reform" is too slow and too timid. More assertiveness is needed. Also and particularly from the top.
When we fast, first for our own sins, we can turn our hunger towards the Lord, and ask him to restore his Church's worship to its former glory....
Bordello would be more fairly translated here as "mess" or "bedlam"; it was the name chosen by those who uploaded the videos, anyway, and not by us.
NC
What garbage is this? It reminds me of the worthless services of the Pentecostolist Christians.
If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox. Anything than like the Pentecostolist hand-waving Bible Christians.
Welcome to the New Springtime!
Benedict XVI can't even keep "his" own house in order. Confidence in him = 0.
"When we fast, first for our own sins, we can turn our hunger towards the Lord, and ask him to restore his Church's worship to its former glory...."
Why not her theology too?
I am so angry! They mock the Pope's liturgical reforms in his own Cathedral. I hope that whoever allowed this is made an example of. Nuncio to Iran would seem an appropriate promotion.
"The Church too must use the shepherd’s rod, the rod with which he protects the faith against those who falsify it, against currents which lead the flock astray." Pope Benedict
If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox.
Don't even say that in jest.
The expression "Bordello Laterano" is extremely crude as it means "Vatican Brothel".
"Lateran" brothel, rather. Interestingly enough, I was just reading about John XII, worst pope in all history, who was accused of having "turned the Lateran into a brothel." (I also just found out that my family is distant cousins with John XII. Figures . . . .)
Your Holiness, how much more do the faithful have to take?
Please get out the shepherd's rod which you spoke of and use it, the people are with you!
Jordanes, after so many generations Pope John XII probably has tens of millions of cousins.
"If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox.
Don't even say that in jest."
Why? According to modern ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and documents of Vaticanum Secundum the Greek Orthodox Church is a "true particular Church". Catholics can receive sacraments from the Orthodox. Then why not?
"If this is the way the Catholic Church is going.....adopting practices from Bible fundamental Christians and Protestant revivalist Pentecostals....then I'll be Greek Orthodox. Anything than like the Pentecostolist hand-waving Bible Christians."
No! Don't do that. All that matters is that you technically recognize Papal power. Of course His holiness seems powerless to exercise it in his own cathedral.
Jordanes, after so many generations Pope John XII probably has tens of millions of cousins.
Yes, I know. I said that in jest. If you knew my family, you'd get the joke.
According to modern ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and documents of Vaticanum Secundum the Greek Orthodox Church is a "true particular Church". Catholics can receive sacraments from the Orthodox. Then why not?
Because according to the Catholic Church's ecclesiology expressed in Dominus Iesus and the documents of the Second Vatican Council:
"although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward Catholic unity"
and
"Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion."
According to Vatican II and Dominus Iesus, the Greek Orthodox are not fully incorporated in the society of the Church, for they do not accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her. To leave the Catholic Church and join the Orthodox would be to refuse to remain in her and to reject the Church's entire system and all the means of salvation given to her -- and therefore it would objectively be a mortal sin, so those who defect to the Orthodox Church "could not be saved."
It's never appropriate to propose, even in jest, that one might commit a mortal sin. Just as it is wrong to contemplate suicide, so it is wrong to think about committing spiritual suicide by formally defecting from the Catholic Church.
Finally, Catholics may only receive the sacraments from the Orthodox under extraordinary circumstances (assuming an Orthodox priest would give the sacraments to a Catholic, that is).
If I could give a message to all members of the Church hierarchy, and especially to His Holiness, it would be: "You cannot teach a person the Faith one way and then imply that it was all a mistake; you cannot instill in him a fire for Christ and His Church, the sacraments, the Priesthood, and then throw cold water over him. You cannot hold the Council of Trent up as the example and then trash it with a modern vision of charismatic nonsense. This, simply, will not work!"
Submitted with due respect for the offices held by those involved.
"Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment."
Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
The Spirit of the Liturgy (Pg 198)
Jordanes,
You accept Dominus Jesus, and consider yourself a traditionalist?
Or even a Catholic?
If the Holy Father is unwilling to keep balloon Masses out of St. John Lateran, what aid and comfort can be expected from him on weightier matters?
You accept Dominus Jesus, and consider yourself a traditionalist?
No, as I've said before, I don't consider myself a traditionalist. I seek to accept and live in accordance with Catholic Tradition, not Traditionalism.
Or even a Catholic?
You consider yourself a Catholic and don't accept Dominus Iesus?
I highly doubt that the Holy Father approved this.
It's perfectly awful, of course.
But it's entirely "legal" under the deregulated liturgical system put into place after Vatican II.
See: http://www.doctrinaliturgica.com/
Please. Dominus Iesus is a promulgated document of the Catholic Magisterium.
Yes, this is the pope's own cathedral. Yes, I cringe at what I'm seeing recorded here.
But context is critical: was this video recorded twenty years ago, and only now making its way to the Internet, or did it occur last week? The distinction is not insignificant.
I think people are being very unfair. I think this is a prayer meeting in the church not the Mass. The Catholic has always had a range of spiritualities and the "charismatic" way is now one of them; indeed the practitioners are among the strongest adherents to orthodoxy.
This does not seem to me to be the Catholic liturgy but a method of legitimate common prayer. And that is to be approved not condemned.
If this is liturgical abuse then we can criticise it and quite rightly, but let us be tolerant of prayer even if it is not our style.
I follow a benedictine spirituality, others franciscan of various observances, others carmelite. If I am to be honest I can't understand the whole St Teresa / John of the Cross mysticism since it seems so far from my preactical benedictinism. But, hey ho, they share the same faith.
Stephen
Hence, the SSPX.
My eyes! My eyes!
Jordanes,
The September 2001 number of SiSiNoNo offered two analyses of DJ that is summarized in the following reamrks from the first of them:
"On August 6, 2000, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith made public the declaration Dominus Jesus on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and His Church. This Declaration provoked opposition from "ecumenical" Catholics and was enthusiastically welcomed by certain Catholics who desire to be, and to remain, simply Catholic. It seems to us, however, that both those who oppose the Declaration and those who welcomed it either have not read it in its totality, or have not read it with due attention. In fact, this document is "perfectly in line with Vatican II" (Bishop d'Ornellas, auxiliary bishop of Paris) and accords with the aims of the "moderate" modernists who want neither a return to Tradition nor the headlong flight of the avant-garde (cf. Cardinal Ratzinger in The Ratzinger Report)."
The articles demonstrate the point quite effectively.
Stephen M said...
I think people are being very unfair... I follow a benedictine spirituality.
Good for you. I follow a balloon spirituality.
"But context is critical: was this video recorded twenty years ago, and only now making its way to the Internet, or did it occur last week? The distinction is not insignificant."
Messa in Latino notes that this event happened just a few days ago. The videos were uploaded on Youtube 4 days ago.
This is not a Mass, but a "prayer meeting". Anyone actually looking at the videos will realize this.
However, the question remains: are "prayer meetings" of this sort appropriate for any church, let alone in the Head, the Mother and Mistress of All Churches?
"However, the question remains: are "prayer meetings" of this sort appropriate for any church, let alone in the Head, the Mother and Mistress of All Churches?"
______________
Can anyone imagine the FSSP or the ICKSP holding this type of prayer meeting?? Not in you wildest dreams! So, no, Protestant-type song and praise worship has no place in a Catholic church.
In fact, this document is "perfectly in line with Vatican II"
Yes, it's blazingly obvious that DI quotes and cites Vatican II documents and reiterates what the Church said at that council.
Sorry since when was the Charisdramatic drivel Catholic? Charismatics are gnostics who want to love God or the effects of God like drug addicts or love sick teenagers. It is just for feeelings. When they don't feel "high" they think God is punishing them!
Those of us formed before Vatican II will not recognize this as indicative of the Catholic Faith or a "traditional" spirituality. If anything, it reminds me of a protestant, pentecostal service and though the participants may mean well, it most definitely doesn't belong in St. John Lateran. But, that's only my opinion, folks, and obviously not the one that counts.
All very interesting. But,at least there has been 4 or 5 EF Pontifical Solemn High Masses at the Lateran. Obviously there is someone there who knows that tradition needs to take the foreground.
"Is Charismaticism really any worse than any of these things?"
Yes, it is.
To StephenM and others of like mind,
Perhaps you should look into the history of charismaticism in the Catholic Church in the 20th century. It started when two Protestant ministers from a so-called pentecostalist sect laid their hands on certain catholic men who took it as a mandate to henceforth act as 'elders' in their own - catholic - communities. Does that sound very catholic to you? Do you think that that is the the catholic way of
doing things?
As for charismaticism not being 'any worse' than certain other errors and abuses, that is quite beside the point. That cannot be an excuse for giving charismaticism a tick of approval.
To get the whole question of charismaticism in context read a book called "Enthusiasm" by Mons. Ronald Knox. This book examines in depth the issues involved in movements such as charismaticism and goes back a long way in history to track various currents that contributed to the development of such movements.
What's worst is that the tourists are seeing this !!!!
Mar wrote:
"As for charismaticism not being 'any worse' than certain other errors and abuses, that is quite beside the point. That cannot be an excuse for giving charismaticism a tick of approval."
I understand what you're saying here, and agree to a certain point. However, I myself did not give charismaticism a tick of approval. And it's unlikely that the charismatics were given a tick of approval based on errors that "traditionalists" tacitly accept in their circles.
Of course it should not be given a tick of approval, but since Vll, all sorts of Protestant and other religious forms of worship have been experimented with in some (certainly not all) of our churches. It's as if this been allowed, by our Lord, to happen so that we can see the effect of trying to reconcile with the secular world and other religions. We will get back to fundamentals eventually.
I have not read the book, 'Enthusiasm' by Ronald Knox, but my grandmother was a Protestant Pentacostal, and I attended one Sunday church service with her when I was ten years old. It was very frightening...like something from a scene out of the film 'The Exorcist,' but these people are looking were truth, but in the wrong places. They need a firm but kindly helping hand to lead them in the right direction.
At least the errors that are held by some traditional Catholics are somewhat contained in traditional Catholic chapels...which is a good thing, of course. They are not generally observed by the public as are the errors that occur in diocesan churches.
Highlights from Solemn Novena in Limerick
Protestant Woman Minister PROCLAIMS the Gospel AND preaching at the Solemn Novena to Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Limerick, IRELAND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3NaGAzErk8&feature=channel
AND.....
Clown liturgy with the Rector of the Community!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hVh1MQGLZA&feature=channel
Very sad indeed.....
"Finally, Catholics may only receive the sacraments from the Orthodox under extraordinary circumstances (assuming an Orthodox priest would give the sacraments to a Catholic, that is)."
No faithful Orthodox priest who follows the canonical tradition of the Orthodox Church will ever commune a Roman Catholic.
Orthodoxy attempts to be faithful to the beliefs and practice of the ancient Church regarding administering the sacraments of the Church *only* to those she believes to be members of the true Church. Likewise, Orthodox Christians are taught to not commune in other churches, as the ancient Faith did not permit such things, even in exceptional circumstances.
"This does not seem to me to be the Catholic liturgy but a method of legitimate common prayer. And that is to be approved not condemned."
Do whatever steps you want, if
You have cleared them with the Pontiff.
Everybody say his own
Kyrie eleison,
Doin' the Vatican Rag - Tom Lehrer.
That sums it up pretty well.
esto es para excomunicacion,no pobre gentes, vengo sacerdotes, san miguel defende nos de este satan religia...
papa si lo sabes por eso? despiertate
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