Rorate Caeli

On the reported blessing of the Quran: The rector of the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament speaks

A few days ago, Rorate picked up a story that had been making the rounds of some Catholic and secular (and at least one Muslim) websites: the report that a ceremony had been organized in front of the very doors of the Cathedral of the Diocese of Sacramento, where flowers were offered to the Quran and which reportedly involved no less than the rector of the Cathedral, Fr. Michael Kiernan, thus giving the impression that the alleged ceremony had the sanction of the cathedral authorities.


Rorate, however, has received -- via a reader -- the following letter from Fr. Kiernan himself to clarify the story:


...I am always sorry when people are disturbed by actions of the church. There are a number of things it might be helpful to clarify in this situation. While I was not part of the planning and did not participate in the event, I’m happy to share with you some information.

First of all, the “Qu’ran blessed at California cathedral” was misconstrued and of course the event was not in the Cathedral building but merely on the steps allowing visibility from the square.

The term "blessed" has distinct meaning in our Catholic faith. There was no such action in that event. Unfortunately, the term which was used by a Presbyterian Minister and adopted by the media could be misunderstood. During the event some people went forward to place a rose on a table holding a copy of the Qu’ran which perhaps could mistakenly be seen by the unknowing as a "blessing." Also, it was stated that “During the ceremony, Father Michael Kiernan, rector of the cathedral, read from the Beatitudes.” I did not read anything and did not even participate in the event. The facts are as follows:

The Interfaith Service Bureau (ISB) of Sacramento made up of many denominations planned an event for the public square not owned by the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament. The previous Sunday, a wonderful presentation of the commemorative stamp of Blessed Teresa was held with our Bishop present in the same space. The ISB asked if they could use the Cathedral steps to allow people to see what would be going on in the square. Everything was outside the Cathedral on the steps and no one entered the sacred space. This was all the participation by the Catholic Church, except for a Franciscan priest from another parish, who read a short scripture passage. The event was brief, led by Dr. David Thompson, a Presbyterian Minister, who is President of the Interfaith Service Bureau. There was no opening prayer (hence no combined prayer) and there were no speeches of any kind. A few passages from the Qu’ran were read by various faith representatives. It lasted about 20 minutes after which those gathered sang a hymn "Let There Be Peace on Earth."

The purpose of the event was as follows:

· In anticipation of the burning of the Qu’ran, this interfaith gathering was intended as a statement by religious leaders that religious intolerance has no place in Sacramento and that the pain of 9/11 is felt by Americans of all faiths and nationalities, Christians, Jews, Muslims , Hindus, Sikhs and people of goodwill in all religions.


· As both President Bush and President Obama have reminded us, the United States is not at war with Islam but with Islamic Fundamentalists who have taken an even higher toll on their own people in places like Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is a fundamentally different thing.


· One doesn’t have to be a Muslim to feel the hatred and disrespect shown by burning a Qur’an. Of course, some Christians do not enjoy the same freedom to practice their religion in Islamic countries but that is beside the point. The United States is called to be different. Millions of people have come to this country to find religious freedom. Our Muslim neighbors are no different. Freedom and tolerance are cherished American values. When anyone here is under attack, we need to hold them closer than ever.


· The interfaith meeting in the front of the Cathedral is not an “endorsement” of Islam but an expression of care and concern for our Muslim neighbors here in Sacramento as we would care for any other religious group with respect and sensitivity.


I hope this clarifies matters for you. Most of the information came from the secular press and was unfortunately presented by some sort of Catholic publications which should know better. It is sad that some in our church run with half-baked reports and assume the worst. Our dear Bishop Soto, the Diocese of Sacramento (and if I may humbly add, the Rector of the Cathedral) work hard do things correctly in every way as much as possible.

Finally, you know well how at the Cathedral we celebrate with reverence and respect in accordance with the Church teachings which guide us in all things at the Cathedral. Let us pray for each other, our holy Church and all whom God has created. God bless you in Jesus, our Savior and Lord, the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, and the Blessed Virgin Mary, our Mother.

Rev. Michael F. Kiernan
Cathedral Rector


53 comments:

AJJP said...

Thank you for posting this, I'm glad Rev. Kiernan clarified the issue especially his distinction between a protestant and catholic blessing.

David Werling said...

Well, Fr. Kiernan, it still sounds pretty bad to me. One should also avoid the appearance of scandal as well, but how can that sink into the head of someone who apparently places more value in "freedom and tolerance" than avoiding the appearance of scandal by allowing an interfaith ritual to take place on the Cathedral steps?

I love the ridiculous equivocation between Mother Teresa being honored on a stamp and an interfaith ritual on the Cathedral steps. When all things are relative, I guess the two are equal.

New Templar said...

Unfortunately the same mistake made and encouraged by the media with regard to Islam, ie that there are moderate and 'extreme' or 'fundamentalist' muslims is exhibited here by Fr. Kiernan. There is no such thing as a moderate or extremist muslim. The difference is those muslims who take their faith seriously and those who do not. For a good outline of what islam is I recommend watching the video "What the west needs to know about islam" which can be viewed here.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781#

Christoher J. Paulitz said...

If this event was truly about religious "tolerance" then the quran should have been banned. Has no one read it at all?

Kinana said...

The Interfaith Service Bureau (ISB) of Sacramento should not have even been allowed to use the steps of the Cathedral. For 1400 years the Quran and Mohammed have inspired the more devote Muslims of the umma to kill Christians and destroy Churches. What blissful ignorance the ‘Franciscan priest from another parish, who read a short scripture passage’ must enjoy.

If the ISB really wanted to make an ‘expression of care and concern for our Muslim neighbors’ they would have taken on board what their own statement alludes to and what the French historian Ernest Renan said:

“Muslims were the first victims of Islam. Many times I have observed in my travels that fanaticism comes from a small number of dangerous men who maintain others in the practice of this religion by terror. To liberate the Muslim from his religion is the best service that one can render him.”

Chris said...

The only lesson here is for Father Kiernan to be more cautious in the future about allowing these ecumenical heretics to stand on the steps of the Cathedral.

I am sorry, but it is reasonably foreseeable that the secular press would have written the story as they had.

I have prayed at this Cathedral many times and I know the layout of the square out in front. If these heretics were made to stand only in the square ... and if the Cathedral had sent out spokesmen or posted signs to disavow this event... the confusion would have been avoided.

The confusion is the fault of the Rector and not of the secular press. ... and I am sure that Saint Francis would agree ... that the Franciscan Friar needs to be dealt with harshly.

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Joe B said...

Catholics burned the Tyndall bible because it was a corrupt version of scripture. This accursed book of the Muslims is worse. We'd be better off burning all of them and banning the public expression of the Muslim faith. And I think the Blessed Virgin would agree.

Anonymous said...

Wow, so I suppose all the people that jumped to conclusiona and got fired up and posted about the crazy Vatican II NewChurch of synceticism and blah blah blah will post a comment here to apologize.

Anonymous said...

Nobody has ever explained to me why IDEAs must be respected. People deserve respect, but ideas do not. Islamic belief does not.

Anonymous said...

For all the enlightened, tolerant readers, members of the Cult of the Warm Fuzzy, I urge you to read this article: http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/the-political-violence-of-the-bible-and-the-koran/

Anonymous said...

"Wow, so I suppose all the people that jumped to conclusiona and got fired up and posted about the crazy Vatican II NewChurch of synceticism and blah blah blah will post a comment here to apologize."
Let me see, the "event" happened on the cathedral premises but not in the cathedral's "sacred space," with permission asked (why?) and given (why?) btw; a Franciscan priest participated in the uhhhh non blessing; and finally, and most distressing, the nonchalant acceptance that this is perfectly OK anyway. New Church is alive and well.

david said...

Wow, a lot of the comments above show that people here did not read the letter very carefully. It was pointed out that the event was not an endorsement of Islam but a gesture of goodwill towards American Muslims. It is sad that people cannot see the difference and must view this with suspicion.

Another comment suggests that it is wrong for the Church to engage in interfaith rituals. And yet, from the halls of Congress to the Vatican, Catholic clergy regularly participate in interfaith meetings.

So where's the scandal in all of this? The only thing that caused concern came from the mouth of a Presbyterian minister and not from anyone within the Church. I thought that this letter made that clear.

Then there are some comments which suggest that Islam is evil and therefore we should not extend our goodwill to Muslims. If this is true, then I suppose that Pope Benedict should not have prayed in a mosque with imams in Turkey. Wake up, folks! We're called to be generous in our relations with peole of other faiths! What's wrong with a little graciousness and generosity?

Kinana said...

David

Having the quran as THE centre piece in an event which includes hymns and scripture readings means what exactly? I imagine that most people can see the logical connection that if the textual foundation of Islam, i.e. the quran, is the focus then the event indeed endorses Islam or at least can be reasonably construed to mean more than just a gesture of goodwill towards Muslims. The statement by the ISB says one thing but its actions say another.

You make a common disconnect. No-one here has yet made a comment wishing ill-will toward Muslims. Any negative comments are related to the teachings of Islam. Criticising a belief system is different than disparaging the believer of that system. Dialogue with Muslims is something we should all be involved with, as well as learning for ourselves what the quran says.

Sean said...

"If this is true, then I suppose that Pope Benedict should not have prayed in a mosque with imams in Turkey."

There's hope for you.

Anonymous said...

DAVID WERLING and CHRIS, I'm with you!

Delphina

me said...

what doesn't make sense to me and it seems that if this bishop wanted to remove any trace of scandal then this should have taken place anywhere else besides the steps of a catholic church no less the cathedral of Sacramento!! having such a ceremony outside of such a building gives the sense that somehow the catholic church agrees with the muslim faith which it does not.

Anonymous said...

Have Muslims in Sacramento held a ceremony to honor the memory of Christians being murdered all around the world by Islamist fanatics?

David Werling said...

OK, david, allow me to direct your attention to another letter, one that was written clear enough, and by someone with just a hair more ecclesiastical rank and dignity than Fr. Kiernan:

"So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it."

--Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, 10.

I read Keirnan's letter just as carefully as I read Mortalium Animos. Have you?

david said...

Kinana said, "You make a common disconnect. No-one here has yet made a comment wishing ill-will toward Muslims."

OK, that's fair. Then no one here would mind praying with Muslims in a mosque such as Pope Benedict did.

As long as no one blessed the Koran with holy water and incense, I'm pretty sure that this event was pretty harmless. If Benedict could pray inside of a mosque, then can't we give a token of respect for the faith of Muslim's outside of a Church? Can't we respect what has been for many people their only road to holiness? By condemning their book, you not only condemn the bad teachings but also the good teachings which are in acccord with Christianity. If you do this, you forfiet the right to friendship with them.

Anonymous said...

The good rector comments on the secular matter of whether the government of the US is at war and with whom. It would have been more to the point for Father to remind us that the one true Church is always at war with all false religions, and that in particular the moslems are always at war against the Church. Louis

Anonymous said...

People, People! The Supreme Pontiff. Pope John Paul II the Great KISSED the Koran. Placing a rose is so much tamer.

Anonymous said...

Please, our last two Popes have shown great respect and great veneration to Islam and to their Sacred Book the Qur'an.
As Christians, we firmly believe that anything good in the Qur'an is also from God Almighty, and it is for good.
I am very sad to read brothers who believe we should burn their book and ban them from their religious practice.
Islam could have fanatics who do evil, but we, Christians also have fanatics who do evil in name of Religion.
Our Pope Benedict XVI has prayed in a Mosque. He prayed, he did not declared war to them.

rpm64 said...

As Christians and Catholics we must walk a fine line. We know that God loves us all and we must treat all with respect. In doing so, however, we must remember that the Quran holds nothing that compares to The Eight Beatitudes or the two greatest commandments given by Jesus himself. When people make comparisons and say that both books have violence in them they forget that in the Bible the violence is in the old testament and never in the Words of Jesus Christ. The Quran in contrast is peaceful in it's beginnings and grew more violent as Muhammad grew in power. This culminates in the book of swords which shows no mercy or tolerance for us infidels. I live in hope that American Muslims will avoid violence and be willing to submit to the laws established by the US Constitution. Tolerance is what makes America and Catholicism great.

Kinana said...

David

By agreeing with me, you seem to accept the distinction between Islam, the belief system; and Muslims, the people who self-identify with Islam. I am glad you see the difference.

But confusingly you later speak about ‘respect for the faith of Muslims’ which suggests that you really do not see the difference.

Which is it? My understanding of Islam and the sort of behaviour it encourages in Muslims leads me to disrespect it; and to feel sorrow for Muslims caught up in its web. From your other comments it is clear to me that your understanding of Islam is different than mine.

I am not sure about the detail of what the Pope did. And the detail is important.

Anonymous said...

rpm64,
With all charity, I disagree with some of your concepts.
We, Catholics, had a great deal of intolerance, violence, and power-over. Our faith has mixed so many times with secular powers, and produced forced conversions in several occasions. Only in the first few centuries, Emperors allied with the church imposed great deal of power and intolerance toward those who believed different. Let's not mention the crusades. Our past in many areas were not precisely peaceful and tolerant. That is not obviously what Jesus Our Lord preached, but was done by the official church for many hundred years.
Muslims (and not "moslesms" or "mahomedans" as other posters write) have a variety of behaviors, and not all are in agreement with violence. There are millions of converted Muslims from Christianity just here in America. They are good citizens and good neighbors.
My husband has wonderful co-workers that are Muslims. We have read the Quran together, and also passages from the Bible. We can have good points in agreement, although we know we have differences. We haven't receive intolerance from them. By the contrary, we were amazingly surprised by their kindness and love.
Anne

LeonG said...

The mediatised presupposition that there are "moderate" & "fundamentalist" mohamatens is wishful thinking at best and sheer propagandist lies at worst. When the call from the extremists comes everyone has to fall into line or else.

LeonG said...

"mahomed[t]ans" is perfectly accurate as they are the followers of Mahomet. Just as Christians follow Christ. The Tridentine catechism calls them such and that is accurate enough without being insulting.

LeonG said...

The alleged and wonderful relations of mutual religious tolerance together with joint readings of Quran and Bible are the democratic preserve of countries where mahomatens are in a minority because they have no other option if they do not want to be completely marginalised. It says more for the freedomn of the our cultures than it does for supposed mahomaten interreligious openness & tolerance. Indeed, such gatherings are the opportune moment to proselytise their own beliefs and hopefully convert those who no longer have much, if any, Christian conviction. They are certainly having their successes.

I can assure everyone here by experience that when the majority is unfavourable to Christians there is no such reciprocal kindness or syncretic sharing. It is keep your religion to yourself or suffer the consequences. For the locals there are punishments and re-education programmes. Ths is what will happen when the mahomaten presence here is strong enough to make a direct challenge on who leads & governs. About that there is no doubt at all for a miliant evangelising quasi-political movement that has its focus firmly on world domination.

david said...

Kinana said: "By agreeing with me, you seem to accept the distinction between Islam, the belief system; and Muslims, the people who self-identify with Islam. I am glad you see the difference."

I do see that. But I'm also saying that dialoguing with Muslims involves an overture of friendship. Friendship is not possible without recognizing that we share certain values. Its a matter of fact that Muslims would have learned these values from Islam, from the Koran. To that extent, we should respect their belief system for bringing them thus far to God's truth.

Personally, I do not care for Islam to the extent that it contradicts the Christian faith. But I do respect many of its basic tenants: devotion to God, prayer, asceticism, regard for the poor, and holy pilgrimage.

Anonymous said...

Anne,
Charity is the highest law but we must remain faithful Catholics. I hope you made mention of reading the Quran in the confessional.

Pray for your Muslim friends' conversion and especially the Catholics who left the true faith for Islamism.

In the traditional devotions to the Sacred Heart, after the litany is a Act of Consecration. In part is reads, "...Be Thou King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolatry or of Islamism, and refuse not to draw them all into the light of the Kingdom of God. Turn Thine eyes of mercy toward the children of that race, once Thy chosen people. Of old they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Saviour; may it now descend upon them a laver of redemption and life..."
(Blessed Be God, page 366)

Lets do mention the crusades.
My Seraphic Father St. Francis supported the fifth crusade. He went along to convert the Muslims - not simply to dialogue. He sent five of his brothers to the muslims and they were tortured and killed.

I am sure St. Francis abhorred war but he defended the Catholic Church and wanted all to be Catholic. He was not the hippy environmentalist that some liberals portray St. Francis to be. A good book to read is, "St. Francis of Assisi and the Conversion of the Muslims" by Frank Rega (www.frankrega.com)

God Bless our holy Catholic faith, the one means of salvation for all.

Spenno

Anonymous said...

Dear brother LeonG,
When Europe, particularly Spain, was majority Catholic, Muslims were forced to convert or leave. Was that one of your examples of Christian tolerance?
We Catholics have our own responsibility as well. Please, dear brother in Faith, don't let your opposition to Islam see the history with one blind eye.
Both sides have great mistakes in our History, and both sides have much to learn from each other.
In regards to their name, I see that the name that our Pope and the official documents that Our Catholic Church use, the term "Islam" and "Muslims" are the correct to be used.
I chose to follow the Catholic Church on this as well.
Anne

rpm64 said...

I just read the replies to my last comment and see some disagreement to my earlier comments. To those I would ask, name one country where the Muslim population has grown to say 15% or higher where Christians aren't in fear of their lives and liberty as Christians. You mentioned the Crusades as if we should be ashamed of them. Certainly things were done in those times that seem barbaric by today's standards but they were in response to the brutal and violent capture of the holy land by Islam. The fault in your logic is that you are looking back 600 years for examples of Christian violence while you ignore the propensity for violence we see from Muslims today. Bethlehem used to be 80% Christian (now about 2% and fearful). Lebanon used to be a Christian country and now Christians are only about 20% of the population. Do you think these people just wanted to come to America or were they driven away? Even American politicians walk on eggs when dealing with Islam. Why? Because they all fear the violence that can follow by saying the wrong thing or drawing a picture of Mohammad. Was anyone killed when someone made a statue of the Blessed Virgin out of elephant dung? We are different as a culture. Find out what EL taquiya and dhimmitude mean before you blindly accept the "peaceful" appearance of American Muslims. As I said before I pray that we can get along as equals but history doesn't give me much hope.

LeonG said...

All historical arguments are spurious. They are meaningless in such a context. We are talking about theological truth which has been entrusted to The Roman Catholic Church in Her Magesterial teachings on Faith & Morals divinely mandated by Our Blessed Lord. Violent dissemination of Faith does not interest me at all. This is why I warn you that when mahomatenism has the majority hand there will be precious little freedom for anyone which has been personally experienced first hand over many years. No Catholic worthy of the name should be dabbling in false religion. The fact that post-conciliar hierarchs do so is more to their condemnation than otherwise. It would not be wise nor would be a counsel of The Holy Ghost to be so rash and disobedient as to trade off Holy Scriptures with writings posing as holy and representing the truth when quite patently they do not. This is why many of our post-conciliar pastors have become the wolves in the penfold that Our Blessed Saviour warned us about.

The most important instruction I received as a Traditional Roman Catholic when I was young was to respect the person which naturally precludes any respect for false religious beliefs. Thus, it is easy to live and work among such people without feeling any impulse to hold joint interreligious sessions. These are dangerous leading to religious indifferentism and worse still loss of Faith in exchange for the norms and values of a conversion to falsehoods.

Anonymous said...

Some commentators don't get it. The word "mahomatenism" does not exist, even in a dictionary.
Being convinced of a different truth does not entitles anyone to make up names of other people's religions.

Kinana said...

David

I think you are trying to make connections or linkages which do not work and are not necessary. I am all for friendship with Muslims, and I try to live this out in my own life. But you claim too much when you say it is a ‘fact’ that what makes friendship possible with Muslims is Islam because of the shared values found therein. What makes for a good friendship? Many amazing and wonderful factors! And the friends in my life are of different beliefs and none. You have not made your case.

Muslims, like other people, learn from many sources. Islam is only one. You credit the good you find in particular Muslims, who you may know or know of, to Islam. I suggest to you that such a cause and effect linkage is not proven.

So back to the subject at hand which is the subject of this thread. Giving ‘respect’ to ‘their belief system’, which you cling to, via respect for the Qur'an is not necessary for friendship to develop.

As regards to your second paragraph you do not list values so much as activities (prayer, asceticism, pilgrimages) the content of which you do not elaborate on. And what does ‘devotion to God’ mean when it is precisely the notion of God that is at the heart of this discussion!

Mar said...

To Anonymous 25 September, 2010 21:46,

The word Mahometan is definitely in the dictionary, what's more, in the Oxford one (the best). Hope that helps you get it :)

LeonG said...

"Mohammadenism" is another version of the word earlier given. To find this insulting is utterly unfathomable. Who has ever heard of a Buddhist being insulted by this label because he follows The Buddha & we follow The Christ as Christians. I suppose if you want to find insult you will do so, no matter what the rational explanation.

The fact that mahomatens place themselves apart with sharia law and rules governing what is halal and haram demonstrates the ultimate nature of the movement. One can only share so far with them.

At the same time, Roman Catholic faith is endangered by compromising norms and values as there are more significant differences than similarities which begin with The Blessed Trinity considered blasphemy by mahometans; the divine nature of Our Blessed Lord is reduced to a Nestorian concept by them and so it continues. The content and register of the Quran have almost nothing in common with The Holy Bible. The best we may expect is mutual respect and tolerance based on our common humanity.

Thus, a major question has to be posed - which God do we have in common? St John tells us that we cannot have The Father without The Son nor The Son without The Father. As The Holy Ghost proceeds from The Father and The Son there is another massive gulf in theological truth there too.

In the final analysis, inter-religious talks are a futile dialogue if indeed there are really genuine discussions taking place. Inter-religious ceremonials are consequently meaningless beyond fabricated human ritual.

Friendships are possible but should not be at the cost of the integrity of our Faith while compromise is out of the question. True Catholic charity admonishes otherwise.

Anonymous said...

Leon,
I've been reading the comments, and I can agree to some extent with some of the ideas.
My only point I want to insist is this: let's give each religion their name, the name they wish to be called. That's it. This is a sign of respect. Each human being is entitled to be respected on this as well.
Muslims want to be called Muslims. Isn't that hard?
That's it. You decide whatever you want. But to me, it is like you show your opposition to them by using a name they don't like.
Is Islam threatening you so much that you cannot call them by the name they want to be called?
And as I said before, if the Church today call them "Muslims" and their religion "Islam", why are we choosing other names?
Maybe is asign fear, maybe anger, maybe desperation...
I don't know.
Sincerely,
Anne

Anonymous said...

Leon,
Aside from that, I have found the the Bible and the Quran have many things in common, and we have beautiful stories we can share.
This does not take my Catholic faith away, it simply opens it to the beauty and to the truth within other faiths.
This is in my humble experience.
Anne

Kinana said...

Anne

Could you give a few examples of the 'beautiful stories' that are in common with the Bible and the Quran? From my readings the stories that seem to be in common are all slightly different and therefore convey a different message. Thanks

david said...

Kiana,

You make two claims. The first is that shared values are not the only basis for friendship. Do you know of any others? The second claim is that Islam is not the only source of values for Muslims. Please name them.

As regards your last paragraph, let me quote the CCC #841:

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is a quote from the Vatican II document Noestre Aetate, section 3.

And so I can say with reassurance that the basic tenants of Islam serve to "adore the one, merciful God."

Anonymous said...

Someone above stated that few know, the truth:
there is no such thing as moderate Mohamedan Muslim.
The West is totally ignorant of Islam or the "faith of Islam."!

Catholics of today on the whole are nearly indistinct from the "tolerant" partakers in the democratic melting pot.

Please, read this over again and allow it to reach your intellect!

Our age today worships and follows the superficial medium, called images. As phenomenologist Pp John Paul himself admitted in FAITH AND REASON: that TRUTH, to our tragedy "No longer matters!" ??
These are the days of which Jesus Christ, Our Lord, the only Savior of the world, spoke and warned:
"The whole world will hate you because of my name."
Many prophets spoke of the war that we are being pulled into, the war of spirits: ideas, manifest in MERE words, where deeds have lost their weight that alone matter to the Almighty! The Lord told us.
The book of Koran, the "call"
and the 'service' of Mohammed are not from divine origin but are allowed by God because it is
the scourge that our generation will learn from, even if most, only too late!!

"Rome becomes the seat of the anti-Christ." said Our Lady at LaSalette. Popes filled with fear of man, but not fearing God do and have recently betrayed Christ by not not proclaiming to Muslims the standards of Christ, the Gospels, nor by It protecting the flock nor the Truth of our holy Faith but washing together the demonic 'soft'
image of demonic Islam with Christian revelations, to lethal
effect to both Muslims and Christians.
The decadent West by now is so corrupt that it deserves the pillage by Islamist 'believers'!
Read the Gospel:
There is no salvation, -- zero --, in anyone and in anything but in the Person and the Good News of Jesus Christ.
Muslims begin, though in miniscule number, to discover how they are duped and enslaved by the 'faith' of Mohammed.
Dr. Ali Sina, a former Muslim, in his psycho-biography of Mohammed, with great details and Islamic references reveals the true face and reality of Islam's Mohammedan counter-faith, as no faith, no religion that leads to God:
Mohammed's own initiation was a series of demonic assaults, even to Mohammed it was that, until his rich wife convinced him otherwise; namely that "he was visited by Michael the Archangel and who was 'bestowed upon him a prophet's mission.' READ HISTORY!
Read the Grand Jihad, one recent best seller by Andrew McCarthy, a respected US prosecutor; Visit "Freedom Faith International," or read the book by Ali Sina: "Understaing Muhammead".
Islam's "faith" by Mohammed deserves zero tolerance, it is the curse unknown by the west's duped leaders tha includes our recent popes and 99% of the political mis-guides of the west. While on the Way to Calvary's Crucifixion the Savior uttered this warning: What will they do to the DRY WOOD, when thyey treated the GREEN WOOD in this manner?"
Our western dried out faith will earn us our coming lot, and will save no one. WE WILL destroyed as was Jerusalem, also because we have failed to recognize JESUS and betrayed his precious GOOD NEWS.
REPENT
REPENT
REPENT.
IT IS PAST MID NIGHT!
THE executors are on the way.
kissing koran, praising their "faith" will not save anyone from their demonic destrtion. God have mercy on those who repent, who reform.

fr. Stephen, o.f.m.

Anonymous said...

Kinana,
I have recently participated in a wonderful workshop at my parish. We shared passages from the Hindu Scriptures (The Bhagavad Gita), the Quran, and the Talmud. We found interesting beliefs and awesome point in accord.
No person present thought we were one religion or that we were supposed to mix. It was simply a way to open up to other people's beliefs. The Muslim Quran has interesting stories about Mariam (Our Lady) or about God being One Lord.
I understand that for some brothers in this site this is not what Catholics are supposed to do. But I think these readings opened my mind, and made me more understanding and respectful toward others. That's it.
I can share my faith with my Muslim neighbors and they share theirs. We can even pray somehow together (they call it make duas).
This is way better than fruitless arguments and fights over religion, don't you think?
I thank God and our priest for the workshop.
Anne

Mar said...

Anne,
Do you think that in a Moslem country you would be able to 'share' your faith with your Moslem neighbours? And when you pray together with Moslems do you reflect upon the numerous Christians that even now are being killed, tortured and hurt in so many other ways by the Moslems? How does it make you feel that there are those suffering and dying for the Faith while you fraternize with those who think nothing of it? Shouldn't you rather be showing solidarity with the victims, who are your brothers
and sisters in Faith, than with the aggressors?

Those workshops you mention are designed to water down your Faith until it does not matter anymore what you believe in. And no, it is not better than 'fruitless arguments and fights over religion'. That which you call 'arguments' with unbelievers and scoffers and heretics started with the apostles, then continued with the Fathers of the Church, then with countless Popes, Confessors, Martyrs, Teachers and others; and they certainly are not fruitless. They are the reason why the Catholic faith has been handed down to you - yes, you - in all its fullness. And yes, it is necessary to fight for the Catholic Faith as many have done even to the point of shedding blood with Jesus as their role model.

Anne, please come out of the Church Warm and Fuzzy. That is not the true Church. There is only one true Church and that is the the Church Militant.

Anonymous said...

Mar,
I cannot deny that I felt somehow upset with your comment, but I try to see it as a nice way to exchange ideas, so no offense (and I am absolutely sure you didn't mean anything offensive, it is just me).
But, while reading your post, I couldn't avoid the picture of our present Pope praying in a Mosque.
Do you think he, while praying with Muslims for that occasion, he does not care about our suffering brethren in other parts of the world?
Because I care about the suffering and needy, should I consider my Muslim friends enemies and should I show to them some type of disgusting avoidance in return for their (allegedly) responsibility in the cause of Catholics suffering around the globe?
No.
Sorry my most dear friend in Christ, no. I belong to the Catholic Church. I don't need to "come out". I've been insisting all along that the documents of the Church today show great respect to other religions. I've been insisting that our Pope (the Pope, nothing less!!) shows great respect and veneration to our brethren whether Jews, Muslims, or other religions. I've been insisting that I share some point in common and we exchange beautiful points in accord, but without mixing or diluting our faith.
I learn from the present Church we must be open minded, open hearts, and very respectful toward other faiths. Our past is also full of religious intolerance and forced conversions.
We can learn to be tolerant. We can show respect to others by calling them the way they expect and want. We can appreciate their contributions.
Or isn't this a real sign of Christian faith and charity?
With all my heart.
Anne

Jordanes said...

Because I care about the suffering and needy, should I consider my Muslim friends enemies and should I show to them some type of disgusting avoidance in return for their (allegedly) responsibility in the cause of Catholics suffering around the globe?

They are not personally responsible for the suffering caused every day by Muslims in other parts of the world, but you should not be naive about what Islam is and the harm it (like all false religions) causes when put into practice in a society.

I've been insisting all along that the documents of the Church today show great respect to other religions.

True -- we recognise whatever truths the other religions may have, rejecting nothing that is true in them, and accepting nothing in them that is false.

I've been insisting that our Pope (the Pope, nothing less!!) shows great respect and veneration to our brethren whether Jews, Muslims, or other religions.

Members of non-Christian faiths are our fellow human beings, "brothers" according to the flesh, but they are not "our brethren" -- only those who are born again through baptism can be, like us, sons of God.

If you've been praying with Muslims, you need to stop it. Even John Paul II never did that, not even at Assisi I and II, and Benedict XVI would not go further than a brief moment of individual quiet contemplation during a visit to a mosque -- and yet even those actions have given scandal. How much worse then to join non-Christians in common prayer?

Kinana said...

David

I will try to state things more clearly. I did not say that ‘that shared values are not the only basis for friendship.’ I do not see those words in what I wrote. Indeed, shared values are the basis of friendships but just because you or I are friends with Muslims does not mean that we share values with Islam or that Islam is friendly to non-Muslims.

You ask about other sources of shared values. I suggest they are our common sense, common humanity, shared cultural values, and shared familial values. etc. In that mix are many different belief systems. Can you sort out the wheat from the chaff? I cannot. I am only saying that I believe you have overstated the case when you claim that it is a ‘fact’ that what makes friendship possible with Muslims is Islam because of the shared values found therein. I contend that it is not a ‘fact’ that Islam, and only Islam, that makes it possible for Muslims to be friends with non-Muslims. I would argue just the opposite.

I do not see how the quote from the Vatican II document Noestre Aetate, is a response to my last paragraph. It would be easy to read too much into this quote. But if that is your assurance I would ask you to elaborate.

In this context of quoting church sources let me quote what Pope Benedict XVI said in his September 12th, 2006 at the University of Regensburg, Germany. He quoted the Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus who wrote down a series of dialogues he had (perhaps in 1391) with an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam, and the truth of both.

The Pope said:

‘…the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".’

And, of course, it is the Qur'an which you give respect to, think is worthy of being placed on the steps of the Catholic Cathedral and the focus of some sort of prayer event, that is not only the foundational text of Islam it also proclaims Mohammed to be the perfect example for all of humankind until the end of time.

thank you

david said...

Kinana,

You ask about other sources of shared values. I suggest they are our common sense, common humanity, shared cultural values, and shared familial values. etc. In that mix are many different belief systems.

The point I'm trying to make is that religion is the basis of values, cultural and otherwise. To speak of our common humanity is to evoke religion because religion teaches us what it means to be human. Cultural norms are ultimately validated or negated by what one's religion says about them. For example, Christian cultures reserve a high place for reason because Christianity teaches that God is reasonable and will not contradict Himself. Muslim cultures have much less of a place for reason because Islam teaches that God may contradict Himself if He chooses. In terms of common sense, a religion will teach its followers whether the senses are to be trusted (Christianity) or to be despised (Gnosticism). One may argue that philosophy might also teach a person values. But this is primarily for atheists who do not believe in revelation.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

This does not contradict what I've said. It is no contradiction to say that the Koran contains a lot of wisdom and yet to say that the "new" material, as states the quote above, was false. None of the wisdom would have been new since Christianity predates the Koran by centuries! No doubt the new material, which was not given by Jesus, was bad! But that doesn't mean that there isn't a lot to like in the Koran.

I do not see how the quote from the Vatican II document Noestre Aetate, is a response to my last paragraph.

I brought up Noestra Aetate because you called into question the Muslim concept of God. I wanted to show that, while there are certainly differences between the two faiths, there are also commonalities which would make interreligious events fruitful. It states that "together with us [Christians] they adore the one, merciful God...."

Jordanes said...

The Vatican II document in question is "Nostra Aetate," not "Noestre Aetate" or "Noestra Aetate."

Kinana said...

David

I think we are getting closer to an understanding of our different positions.

This discussion about friendship I suggest is getting off topic and a distraction. I completely agree with you that friendships are important and that includes friendships with Muslims. Even though the Quran forbids friendships with non-Muslims I think we need to offer friendship to Muslims and hope for reciprocity.

You contend that 'the Koran contains a lot of wisdom.' For that reason you support the Quran being on the Cathedral steps in some sort of prayer event. I disagree for the reasons previously stated. Also you support the event and the use of the Quran as a gesture or sign of friendship with Muslims, in that you feel it is right to show a sign of respect to that which they respect (i.e. the Quran).

It might be fruitful for me to know what ‘wisdom’ you find in the Quran.

You must be aware though that the Quran itself declares that a Muslim must believe in the whole of the Quran and not just parts of it. This would require you to understand the Quran as perceived by Islam and not pick and choose just the nice bits which appeal to you. These nice bits may be superseded by not-so nice bits (a processed mentioned in the quote by the Pope). Also for a Muslim the Quran supersedes/updates the Old and New Testaments because Islam teaches that the Bible has been corrupted. Given these two caveats, and in order to move this discussion on a bit, it would prove valuable to find out what is there to ‘like in the Koran.’

Regards

Anonymous said...

Perhaps it would be wise to call on Our Lady of Good Remedy (novena from Sept.30 to Nov. 8).

"For many centuries, Muslim fleets seized Catholic ships and invaded Catholic lands and took away men, women and children into slavery. The Catholic population in many countries, especially in Italy, Spain and Portugal lived in constant fear of being carried off into slavery. France, Britain, Holland, Ireland, and even Iceland suffered similar attacks and some of their population were captured and sold in the Islamic slave market of North Africa and the Middle East.

It was perilous in the extreme to their eternal salvation for Catholics to live as slaves in Muslim society because of their grossly immoral customs. Women were in special danger because they were habitually sold into Muslim harems.

But God did not leave His people unaided. He inspired several religious institutions to work towards the rescue of the Catholic slaves from their Muslim slave masters.

One of these was the Trinitarian Order, which was founded by Saint John Matha in 1198. This Order was founded to redeem Catholic slaves from the Islamic slave markets and to set them free.

However, only by raising large sums of money could the Trinitarians carry out their mission of buying back Catholic slaves. To be successful in raising such huge sums of money, they confided their fundraising efforts to the merciful protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

And She did not let them down. In fact, the Mother of God was so generous in answering their pleas for funds, that they called Her "Our Lady of Good Remedy."

And so, the Trinitarians were able to free many slaves from the bondage of slavery and, above all, to free them from the moral evils of sin that was prevalent in those decadent Muslim societies.

Today, we need Our Lady’s help more than ever in our personal lives, to resolve complicated personal situations and to find solutions for troubles we face in our families.

Above all, we need Our Lady of Remedy's powerful intercession to help us turn back the rising tide of radical Islamic Terrorism that is destabilizing the world. Our country and the world desperately need Our Lady’s powerful and unfailing help."

(Source: America needs Fatima)

Anonymous said...

Our Lady of Good Remedy Novena Prayers:

"O QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND EARTH, Most Holy Virgin, we venerate thee. Thou art the beloved Daughter of the Most High God, the chosen Mother of the Incarnate Word, the Immaculate Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and the Sacred Vessel of the Most Holy Trinity.

O Mother of the Divine Redeemer, who under the title of Our Lady of Good Remedy comes to the aid of all who call upon thee, extend thy maternal protection to us. We depend on thee, Dear Mother, as helpless and needy children depend on a tender and caring mother.

Hail, Mary....

O LADY OF GOOD REMEDY, source of unfailing help, grant that we may draw from thy treasury of graces in our time of need.

Touch the hearts of sinners, that they may seek reconciliation and forgiveness. Bring comfort to the afflicted and the lonely; help the poor and the hopeless; aid the sick and the suffering. May they be healed in body and strengthened in spirit to endure their sufferings with patient resignation and Christian fortitude.

Hail, Mary....

DEAR LADY OF GOOD REMEDY, source of unfailing help, thy compassionate heart knows a remedy for every affliction and misery we encounter in life. Help me with thy prayers and intercession to find a remedy for my problems and needs, especially for... (Mention your intentions here).

O loving Mother, on my part, I pledge to adopt a more intensely Christian lifestyle, to a more careful observance of the laws of God, to be more conscientious in fulfilling the obligations of my state in life, and to strive to be a source of healing in this broken world of ours.

Dear Lady of Good Remedy, be ever present to me, and through thy intercession, may I enjoy health of body and peace of mind, and grow stronger in the faith and in the love of thy Son, Jesus.

Hail, Mary.....

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of Good Remedy,

R. That we may deepen our dedication to thy Son, and make the world alive with His Spirit."
(Source:America Needs Fatima)

Saint Francis pray for us.