Rorate Caeli

Romanian Orthodox and Roman Catholic priests concelebrate Divine Liturgy in Romania

Vassula Ryden, a visionary known for her "private revelations" that promote indifferentism, and who continues to be enthusiastically supported by many Catholic and Orthodox clergy and hierarchs despite occasional warnings from the Vatican (and a few from the Orthodox Churches), enthusiastically relates in the latest report on her website that as part of her Mission in Romania on May 2010, a Romanian Orthodox priest invited a Roman Catholic priest to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy of Pentecost.

The Romanian priest is Fr. Daniel Crecan, who is also identified in the report as a Romanian ORTHODOX (not Greek Catholic) parish priest in Bocsa Mantana of the Orthodox Eparchy of Caransebes. The Roman Catholic priest is named as Fr. Rolf Philip Schoenenberg.





The report further states that communion was given to the Catholics present, and alleges that Vassula's mission trip had the support of the Orthodox Metropolitan Nicolae Corneanu, who made headlines in 2008 when he received communion at a Greek Catholic Divine Liturgy. (The report also makes the erroneous claim that Patriarch Kirill had invited Pope Benedict XVI to visit Russia, and quotes Vassula as stating "An Orthodox will not become Catholic, nor is there a need for a Catholic to become Orthodox. We are asked not to differentiate among us, but to respect each other's traditions and celebrate around one altar. The Eucharist must be shared by all.")

72 comments:

John (Ad Orientem) said...

If true; this is scandalous. The Romanian Holy Synod should investigate to determine what (if anything) exactly happened and take corrective measures as appropriate. Metropolitan Nicolae (Corneanu) has been the source of scandal in the past. I believe he apologized for his actions and publicly repented when called on the carpet by the Synod after communing with Uniate clergy. If the man is now promoting communio in sacris with the non-Orthodox then he needs to be deposed.

If on the other hand this turns out to be a false alarm (this woman's credibility doesn't sound like it's Triple A) then she needs to be told to shut up and cease promoting heresy and schism (which should be done in any event).

In ICXC
John

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Just to clarify: the report by Vassula (who is Greek, born in Egypt) claims that Met. Nicolae supported her Mission trip. However, there is no mention on whether he also blessed the concelebration.

Robert said...

Look on the bright side John. At least your clergy don't place Roses on the Quran. They just commune with other Christians.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

Robert
We don't do either. If this is true (and I am compelled to admit it probably is), then it is going to be a pretty big scandal in the Orthodox Church. Outside of a very few places in the Middle East where inter-communion has been nodded and winked at by both Catholics and Orthodox at the local level (usually due to all of the intermarriages), this is almost unknown. This sort of thing may be somewhat commonplace in the RCC, but it is still a very serious no no with us. My guess is that this is going to cause a big stink. And it damn well should!

Also I hope someone will finally shut this woman up. The Greek church has been far too vague about her relationship with The Church.

In ICXC
John

Anonymous said...

Several years back her case was examined in Athens and the Greek Church stated she was excommunicated. For communing in both Catholic and Orthodox churches. She then initiated a court case against the Greek Church but it was abandoned.

Anonymous said...

Someone should stop Vassula Ryden. She is becoming very wild. her automatic handwriting is, in the first place, not a good sign of her 'messages'. She is doing harm to the Church.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"Several years back her case was examined in Athens and the Greek Church stated she was excommunicated. For communing in both Catholic and Orthodox churches. She then initiated a court case against the Greek Church but it was abandoned."

The problem is, Vassula is under the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, which continues to maintain a very warm relationship with her.

See:
http://www.tlig.org/en/news/2009-12-04/2104/

this:

http://www.tlig.org/en/mission/reports/2009/mission-to-egypt-2009/

and this:

http://www.tlig.org/en/spirituality/pilgrimages/egypt2008/

The last report clearly states that Catholics were also communed by no less than the Greek Orthodox Patriarch himself on Pascha 2008. This was confirmed to me by a Filipina Catholic who had been present at the Liturgy.

Anonymous said...

"An Orthodox will not become Catholic, nor is there a need for a Catholic to become Orthodox". Of course, as catholics are orthodox and the so-called orthodox are heterodox.

It might be a good idea to stop using such important words against their very mening (btw, and this is not insignificant, it is not until John XXIII that this inversion came into official use by the Vatican).

Brian said...

The Creed must have been interesting. I wonder Who the Holy Spirit proceeded from.

Anonymous said...

There's nothing wrong with participating in Greek Orthodox, or any other Orthodox liturgies. They are totally traditional and valid...as even Rome has said.

What would be scandelous, criminal, heretical, blasphemous and a grave sin, would be for a Roman Catholic priest to assist at or participate actively in a Protestant service or ceremony of any kind.

That would be an affront to God.

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

Welcome to the religion of Vatican II.

BJR said...

"What would be scandelous, criminal, heretical, blasphemous and a grave sin, would be for a Roman Catholic priest to assist at or participate actively in a Protestant service or ceremony of any kind.

That would be an affront to God."

Does this count?

Anonymous said...

Stop rending your garments and fomenting hysterical - and phony - outrage over infractions that are real, but err in the direction of unity. We will be united to the Orthodox, and most of you sound like you will denounce the Pope who does it, even though the Pope alone is competent to determine who is in union with Peter. Like the monks of Mt. Athos, our conservatives seem to be the most virulent opponents of unity with the Orthodox. You who work for division, or to perpetuate division, do the Devil's work!

Anonymous said...

The link provided does not mention anything about Kirill and Benedict meeting soon.

ceej said...

Vassula Ryden is a known crackpot. I wouldn't take her account at face value, but on the other hand, I wouldn't put this kind of shenanigans past Met. Nicolae, either.

Brian: Very funny! :)

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"The link provided does not mention anything about Kirill and Benedict meeting soon"

It's mentioned at the end of the section entitled "Prophecies and Visions". Of course, as I note in my post, the claim is entirely false.

Cosmos said...

Is there a distinction between indifferntism and the instinct that what separates Catholics and Orthodox no longer seems so large compared to what separates both groups from the rest of the world?

Its like arguing with a neighbor over a property line while your country is being invaded. Even if it is a major property dispute with serious impacts on the wealth of both families, it still pales in comparison with what is coming.

Everyone on both sides should obey their laws, but if we are once again begining to recognize each other as brothers, that is wonderful.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

To the Anonymous of 13:17:

The unity that counts, the unity that will actually last, the unity that will not contribute towards even greater disunity, is unity of faith. Events like this do not cause unity -- this and similar events only cause greater scandal, and therefore greater disunity. To protest this scandal is not to promote disunity but precisely to defend the meaning of true unity.

I find it very interesting that the proponents of false unity want to move us towards unity by disregarding precisely one of the principles upon which Catholicism and Orthodoxy are united, namely, that intercommunion can come only after agreement on doctrine. Since when did unity come by creating disunity over yet another principle?

I sometimes read a certain forum as well as a couple of quasi-academic blogs where indifferentism between Catholics and Orthodox are relentlessly preached, and what strikes me is the way that the proponents of false unity in these websites so frequently appeal to subtle (or not-so-subtle) ad hominems in order to press their case, just as you do. Those who acknowledge the obvious fact that Catholics and Orthodox do not agree on essential matters, and therefore can neither concelebrate nor routinely receive Communion at each other's liturgies, are condemned as apostles of disunity, ridiculed as upholders of outdated polemics, and are threatened with divine judgement for "prolonging the causes of division" and "doing the devil's work"! It is as if to acknowledge a sad reality is to be guilty of it and to celebrate the fact -- an absurd notion, as anyone can see.

No, we acknowledge that there is division between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, a division wide enough to prevent meaningful concelebration or intercommunion, because we cannot compromise over the truth, and not because we rejoice over division or would like it to continue. To disregard doctrine makes communion quite pointless, don't you think?

Anonymous said...

"...even though the Pope alone is competent to determine who is in union with Peter"

And the Pope is bound to make such determinations on the basis of the teachings of the Church, as set forth in the binding decrees of her Councils and Popes.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Cosmos:

The "invasion" that we should fear the most is the invasion into our minds of the notion that doctrine doesn't really matter.

Some people say that Catholics and Orthodox should just "get over it" and proclaim unity without further ado in order to present a unified front against secularism. Do these people not realize that that would be the greatest victory that we can ever give to secularism? Do these people not realize that by embracing doctrinal indifference rather than face martyrdom, they have given up on the meaning and dignity of the name of Christian???

Jack said...

Since it is obvious in this picture that the Roman Catholic priest is NOT dressed in the Eucharistic vesture of either church, he cannot possibly be concelebrating Divine Liturgy with the Orthodox priest.

OTOH--what if they gave a schism and nobody came?

Anonymous said...

No, the Orthodox will never join the Roman Catholics unless some become Uniates and then they are no longer Orthodox by definition. As to this concelebration, the Roman Catholic priest does not appear to be vested for mass although it is true that just about anything goes these days as to Latin vestments. The problem here is not this eccentric laywoman but the two clergy and nothing will happen to them at all.

Jordanes said...

The problem here is not this eccentric laywoman but the two clergy

No, all three are a problem -- and she's not merely eccentric.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

Anonymous 1812
The problem here is not this eccentric laywoman but the two clergy and nothing will happen to them at all.

I concur with Jordan's response. All three are a problem. As for the "nothing will happen to them at all" bit, I can't speak for the Roman priest but the Orthodox priest is almost certainly gong to get called on the carpet for this. As for this wacky heretic, some quick research indicates that outside of the Alexandrian Patriarchate she is generally regarded as a crack pot and has been formally barred from the chalice by a number of Orthodox churches. I am quite certain she would not be knowingly admitted to communion in my church or jurisdiction (OCA).

With the usual caveats I feel comfortable in saying that she is considered to be excommunicated by most Orthodox. It is regrettable though that the Alexandrian church refuses to act since she lives within their canonical territory.

In ICXC
John

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said... "And the Pope is bound to make such determinations on the basis of the teachings of the Church, as set forth in the binding decrees of her Councils and Popes."

Wrong. The decrees of dead Popes do not bind living Popes. Only true doctrines bind living Popes, and nothing in any of these discussions involve true doctrine.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

Anonymous 1307,
We will be united to the Orthodox...

Don't you think you should check with us about that?

Beyond which I fully concur with the two most recent and excellent comments by Carlos A. Palad. Communion is the capstone of full agreement on all essential points of doctrine. And we are no where's near that.

In ICXC
John

Robert said...

Maybe Vassula Ryden is in cahoots with Joan Chittister.

Mairedecortichon said...

I totally agree with John(Ad Orientem) and Carlos. It is a lunacy to think that unity can be reached while discarding the doctrinal differences which separate the Churches. The work of the devil would certainly be to make us unite(without doctrinal solutions to the divide East-West), so that we can become lunatics, heretics, and weaklings like the other so-called "Christian churches". I love the Orthodox for their unshakable rigor in doctrine, especially when it pertains to reunion with Rome.
It is better to die for the purity of the faith and its doctrines then to unite while discarding one's own doctrinal truths, solely for the purpose of an illusory unity.
I wonder when the diseases called modernism and doctrinal relativism will cease to make some people err!!!

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Jack:

"Since it is obvious in this picture that the Roman Catholic priest is NOT dressed in the Eucharistic vesture of either church, he cannot possibly be concelebrating Divine Liturgy with the Orthodox priest."

The priest is dressed in a modern-style alb and a stole -- acceptable vesture for concelebration in the Novus Ordo. When a priest concelebrates in a Mass / Divine Liturgy in a rite other than his own, he will wear the appropriate vestments of his own rite, unless he has specific faculties for celebrating in that rite in which he is assisting.

Gideon Ertner said...

Now, now - did they really concelebrate or was the Catholic priest merely invited to stand at the altar while the Orthodox priest celebrated? As the Catholic is wearing choir dress this would seem most likely.

Either way, of course, it gave scandal and it is clear that laymen can't tell the difference.

Anonymous said...

John (Ad Orientem) said...
Outside of a very few places in the Middle East where inter-communion has been nodded and winked at by both Catholics and Orthodox at the local level (usually due to all of the intermarriages), this is almost unknown.

Intercommunion happens weekly at my (Catholic) parish, where some Orthodox receive Holy Communion every Sunday.

Location = Atlanta.

In addition, my Catholic friends' daugther is married to the son of an Orthodox priest. The couple attends Liturgy at a local Orthodox parish, and the Catholic receives Holy Communion there all the time.

Same location.

Intercommunion happens far more frequently than most people realize. Many of the laity, Catholic and Orthodox alike, simply don't care about the rules, and the priests, again, Catholic and Orthodox alike, don't either.

Knight of Malta said...

Fr. Rene Laurentin (absurdly named one of the top 100 Catholics by “dailycatholic.org”—slightly behind Wayne Weibl, who is a major proponent of the false apparition, Medjugorje,) is a huge proponent of the "seer" named Vassula Ryden, a Pan-Orthodox divorcee who claims that Jesus personally guides her hand in writing messages (http://www.tlig.org/en/background/handwriting/laurentin/). Ryden frequently speaks before the United Nations, where she espouses a syncrenistic understanding between protestants, Catholics and Orthodox. Fr. Laurentin cannot be relied upon as an authority on the veracity of Medjugorje, for the same reason, since he has advanced a highly unorthodox "seer." See, (http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFRYDN1.HTM.)

Vassula Ryden and Medjugorje both espouse a syncrenistic and indifferent understanding of the Church. This is opposed to the Tradition of our Church. It is opposed to the great Saints and Martyrs who gave their live to advance the truth that Christ died to forgive us our sins, and created one Church to advance His mission on earth, and in that Church created the unbloodly Sacrifice of the Mass, as a mode whereby He would remain with us until the end of time.

Moretben said...

"Intercommunion happens far more frequently than most people realize. Many of the laity, Catholic and Orthodox alike, simply don't care about the rules, and the priests, again, Catholic and Orthodox alike, don't either."

There's nothing new about this. it's the same here in the UK between Anglicans and Roman Catholics. It doesn't mean that such people - those who "simply don't care" - represent the leading edge of any kind of movement towards genuine unity.

In my own (Greek) parish, occasional non-Orthodox presenting themselves for communion are politely taken to one side by a reader, who explains to them why it's impossible.

Fr John Abberton said...

I actually know Vassula quite well. I doubt that many of those who have posted here do. Some of the comments made against her are wildly innaccurate and some are just plain insluting and unjust. Disagree with her by all means but please do it charitably - especially since you do not know her. As regards the "concelebration" it could not have been a real concelebration because of the different rites. The invitation may have been couched in these words and there is an obvious need for clarity here. On TLIG pilgrimages non-Catholic clergy are invited to stand around the altar - NOT to concelebrate, which is forbidden. This was on the specific advice of the Vatican which was consulted on this matter. Orthodox bishops and priests often invite others to receive Holy Communion. Please note this is NOT against Catholic teaching (check it out). Moreover, sometimes, non-catholics are allowed - in specific cicumstances - to receive Holy Communion in Catholic churches. My sister's father-in-law, who is an Anglican is an example of this (because they lived in Italy etc)
Please do not attack or insult what you do not know or understand. I have no problem whatever with people disagreeing with Vassula or with Fr Laurentin, but I do have a problem - and so should you all - with insults, injustice and false accusations.

ceej said...

Anonymous 1:13, what you describe is extremely unusual and completely contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox faith. Unfortunately, it's not rare enough.

First, the Orthodox at your parish should not be attending a non-Orthodox service regularly, and should never commune. (I should qualify describing them as Orthodox because communing outside the Orthodox Church incurs an excommunication and separates the party in question from the Orthodox Church.) The RC church stipulates that Orthodox are to respect their own bishop's opinion on the matter (which should be to reject communion from any non-Orthodox). Please inform your priest of this.

As for your Catholic friends' daughter, what kind of Orthodox church is it (Antiochian, Greek, etc.)? Unless she was received into the Orthodox Church, she should never commune there. The priest should not allow it, and if his bishop finds out, that priest could be defrocked.

Henry said...

Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[123.] "The vestment proper to the Priest celebrant at Mass, and in other sacred actions directly connected with Mass unless otherwise indicated, is the chasuble, worn over the alb and stole". Likewise the Priest, in putting on the chasuble according to the rubrics, is not to omit the stole. All Ordinaries should be vigilant in order that all usage to the contrary be eradicated.
[124.] A faculty is given in the Roman Missal for the Priest concelebrants at Mass other than the principal concelebrant (who should always put on a chasuble of the prescribed color), for a just reason such as a large number of concelebrants or a lack of vestments, to omit "the chasuble, using the stole over the alb".


So, if this priest was concelebrating, then his ordinary should reprimand him for being inappropriately vested, there obviously not having been any "just reason" for the lack of a chasuble.

Jordanes said...

Father Abberton, whatever did or did not happen at the Divine Liturgy in Romania, we do not have to know Vassula Ryden personally to be able to see that she is not a voice a Christian should listen to.

thomas tucker said...

Intercommunion and concelebration between Orthodox and Catholics is a great idea.
Keep it up.
It would be great to see Benedict and Hilarion do this.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Fr. Abberton:

This is from the actual report on the TLIG website that I linked to:


"Not only was Rev. Fr. Daniel Crecan inspired to ask Vassula to speak to his congregation after the Divine Liturgy on the great feast of Pentecost Sunday, but he also invited Fr. Rolf, Roman Catholic priest, to concelebrate. In addition to this, Fr. Daniel was overjoyed to invite us all to partake in the Eucharist. What a wonderful gift we were given by the Holy Spirit!

Fr. Daniel, the parish priest of this church shares his perspective on the events of this wonderful day:

"On the day of Pentecost was the feast day for our church and many people came to attend the Holy Liturgy. That day in our community we received many special guests who came from many parts of the world: one Greek born in Egypt, one from Switzerland, and one from the Philippines. That was wonderful and very special for us because we had never before had so many nationalities in our church. It does not matter if our Orthodox community is small, but it is our joy to minister together with believers from other countries and different churches. The Swiss man is my good friend and brother in Christ, a Roman-Catholic priest. On that special day drawn by the Spirit we celebrated together the Holy Liturgy and we shared together the same Holy Eucharist, the Holy Body and Blood of Christ. It was great, wonderful, divine ... .just like the teachings of our Saviour Christ, "MAY THEY ALL BE ONE!". Communion in the Eucharist is the sign of unity in the Holy Spirit. It was definitely a divine sign given by the Holy Spirit, of full communion in the love of Jesus Christ. But this is not all....we had a lot of people who came to receive the Holy Eucharist, singing, praying together and giving glory to our God. The presence of many Greek-Catholics sharing communion with us in the same church and sharing the Liturgy was indeed another sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit in the middle of our community. No words can ever tell the joy of what it is like to have full communion in truth, in unity with the Holy Spirit."

I'm pretty sure that Fr. Crecan knew what a concelebration is, and the pictures on the TLIG website, clearly show the Catholic priest AT the altar, and not simply standing off to the side. For that matter, the protocol that is normally followed is for Catholic clergy attending Orthodox liturgies to stand OUTSIDE the iconostasis, not INSIDE, as this is forbidden to non-Orthodox (something that I've been personally told by a Greek Orthodox priest, and which I've observed in many of the the numerous videos of Eastern Liturgies that I've seen.)

Furthermore, concelebration between priests of different rites is not impossible: it happens all the time between Eastern and Latin Rite Catholics.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"Intercommunion and concelebration between Orthodox and Catholics is a great idea.
Keep it up.
It would be great to see Benedict and Hilarion do this."

Ah, yes, the two men who can be expected not to do this.

Fr John Abberton said...

Carlos,
Thank you. It seems you are right about the concelebration. However, one thing you need to understand is that Vassula and those who support her are trying to do what they can to further Christian unity. Sometimes we find ourselves in situations where we simply accept the invitations offered to us. I am personally concerned that in this case Orthodox sensibilities seem to have been set aside. I can assure you that, when I can, I will look into this matter myself. I can assure you - because I happen to know - that Vassula does everything she can to follow the laws of each church.

Adam P. said...

In my RCIA course, we were told that the Orthodox are allowed to receive the Eucharist at the Catholic church, but the Orthodox do not allow Catholics to receive in the Orthodox church.

Canon Law 844 §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed.

Jack said...

||The priest is dressed in a modern-style alb and a stole -- acceptable vesture for concelebration in the Novus Ordo.||

Carlos, in the pictures that are given here, no stole is visible.

Furthermore, the neckline of the Roman Catholic priest's white vestment is that of a SURPLICE, not an alb.

El Juan said...

There won't be unit anytime soon. The Orthodox bishops allow contraception and they would rather die outside of Holy Mother Church then bow to the moral teachings of the Pope.

Basil said...

Jack,

Specsavers have some great deals on offer now.

The Roman cleric is wearing an alb. The 'neck line' as you describe it is the stole on the back of his neck. In the second picture you can seen the stole in front of his left knee. It is clearly quite a decent liturgical stole rather than some pseudo-Baroque 'spade'.

Anonymous said...

The first photograph is rather strange. Byzantine priests, whether Catholic or Orthodox,do not genuflect.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

Anonymous 23:57
The first photograph is rather strange. Byzantine priests, whether Catholic or Orthodox,do not genuflect.

I can't speak for the uniate customs but Orthodox priests generally do kneel before the sacrament after the consecration.

In ICXC
John

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Fr. Abberton:

Thank you for your kind comments.

Jack said...

\\The first photograph is rather strange. Byzantine priests, whether Catholic or Orthodox,do not genuflect.\\

It is general Orthodox and Byzantine practice (except on Sundays) to do a prostration--NOT kneeing or genuflecting--immediately after the Consecration, which is seen as taking place at the Epiclesis, and NOT the Words of Institution.

Anonymous said...

The first photograph is rather strange. Byzantine priests, whether Catholic or Orthodox,do not genuflect.

###It is general Orthodox and Byzantine practice (except on Sundays) to do a prostration--NOT kneeing or genuflecting--immediately after the Consecration, which is seen as taking place at the Epiclesis, and NOT the Words of Institution.

****************************************************
You are both wrong because you are unfamiliar with the practice of the Romanian Church. The priests DO KNEEL as a rule after the epiklesis, so nothing strange here.
Orthodoxy has more diverse practices than the Greek versus Russian one, some converts automatically assume.
CNI

Anonymous said...

ceej said:

Anonymous 1:13, what you describe is extremely unusual and completely contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox faith. Unfortunately, it's not rare enough.

I'm aware it's contrary to the Orthodox Faith, just as it is contrary to the Catholic Faith. However, it happens all the time.

And it's not just my venue. I personally spoke on the phone many years ago with a promoter of Vassula Ryden in the Houston area. The lady I spoke with is Greek Orthodox. She told me point blank that she and her husband, also an Orthodox, attend Liturgy at the Maronite Church all the time. It was not a big deal to them.

Also, my childhood doctor was Greek Orthodox. His nephew and niece came from Greece to live here in the U.S. for awhile and go to school here (back in the early 70's. Where did they go to Church while here? Saint Ambrose Catholic parish (Cleveland Diocese).

When members of my Catholic parish went on a Greek cruise, they went to the Orthodox Church on Sundays.

Further, the Greek Orthodox husband of a Catholic here in my area was in an Episcopalian wedding several years back. The girl told me that her husband had asked the Greek Orthodox priest if he could receive communion at the wedding.

I don't remember the response, but I thought the question was odd, as it's my experience that Greek Orthodox people know better than to ask such a question.

What can you say?

Anonymous said...

"The Creed must have been interesting. I wonder Who the Holy Spirit proceeded from."

It is an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, so from the "Father." They would not use the Filioque.

Also, in general, Eastern Catholic do not use the Filioque during Divine Liturgy.

thomas tucker said...

Carlos- time will tell. It sure wouldn't surprise me.

Patrick said...

I do nothing to denigate the differences between Orthodox and Catholics, but should the differences keep us from communion with one another? The Catholics and the Orthodox are, after all, agreed as to WHO is there and Catholics already allow the Orthodox to partake. Put another way, there is not a doctrinal basis for unity, but is denial of communion appropriate?


Our major theological difference remains the Filioque, but that was introduced in 800 (in the 500's in Spain) and intercommunion persisted until 1054 and so what, exactly, is the doctrinal basis for no communion? I don't know of any doctrine that started to separate the sees at that date, the reasons instead being related to politics. Should politics be a reason for denial of intercommunion? The excomunications from that time are long gone. (The Creed by the way is an easy question...."fron the Father" is acceptable to Catholics and used by the Uniates, and therefore it would be used at a Divine Liturgy. The only question is whether Filioque is acceptable in the West in the absence of direct councilar approval.)

So in conclusion, I agree with those who say that doctrinal differences are strong enough that the Churches cannot reunite at present, but I don't think it should hinder intercommunion. I of course retain the right to change my mind if some doctrinal issue could be demonstrated.

Anonymous said...

ALL ABOUT VASSULA IS ON INTERNET

www.infovassula.ch

Johannes said...

On the issue discussed within regarding re-union - I have decided to weigh in. The middle is right. Blind, official return at any cost is wrong or at least impracticable. It would make schisms within the schism in the act to allegedly end the great and original schism.

However - I disagree with Carlos and company. I do not believe that we are so doctrinally distant as to preclude Communio. The schism was not at the beginning doctrinal. The Filioque addition is dated from the sixth century (perhaps earlier...). There was no schism over it though the Greeks knew it and disagreed that it had been made. It was not used in the Credo in the Roman liturgy (though no one in the West denied that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and the Son). It was used in Spain and Francia (not Gaul). The Bishop of Rome, Leo, in the ninth century intervened with Charlemagne to have it supressed within the territory under his governance. He had two silver plaques with the Creed of Nicae in Greek and Latin without the Filioque addition inscribed and placed upon the tombs of the two apostles on whom rests the priority of the Roman church and it's Bishop. His call was not heeded by Carolus. Quite rather, It was later Germanic "imperial" pressure - Henricivs II - that led Benedictvs VIII, then Bishop of Rome, to include it in the Roman liturgy in the eleventh century. After the schism.

The schism occurred over custom and the Bishop of Rome's power to impose or overturn customs. Long hair, a beard and ectera - these were being derogated and the Bishop of Rome demanded that they cease and Roman customs (shaving, tonsure and ectera) be taken up by the bishops in the East. As well - it concerned liturgy. A fact at least equally embarassing for those who are so emphatically enthusiastic about any historical liturgy as against the vernacular; i.e, most who urge a return to the pre-1962 Mass. Many of us today would equally question that the Bishop of Rome has a right to enforce an end to customs of churches whose provenance is apostolic. The Bishops of Rome themselves have acknowledged that is was wrong. The bull should never have been put upon the altar.

Now it is the Greeks turn to be wrong. If the same terms that the Western Bishops are offering today were given to the Greeks in the tenth century - there would have been no schism. Men like Mark of Ephesus are responsible for making it into an identity. Today many thoughtful Orthodox seriously deny any possibility of re-union because it would be infidelity to their fathers who went into schism. It is like the Eastern "council" of Serdica - upholding in the name of "tradition" and the bounds of the fathers a verdict against Athanasius that was wrong. The Eastern Orthodox shall not return. Some shall leave Eastern Orthodoxy, but it shall never end now.

It should also be noted that there are many on their side who do not really understand the matter. They are not consciously outside of Communion with us. And the difference they do see is not doctrinal. It is, again, custom. "We pray in this church, they in that one." "This is our priest." "They pray this, we pray that." There are multitudes in Ukraine (where my family comes from), Russia, Estonia and elsewhere to whom these are the only differences they know. It is a bishops' quarrel.

Finally - to men of opinions like to Carlos' I should ask just what are the doctrinal issues that they believe separate us from Communio. If the Filioque clause could be an issue for four centuries without a schism - how can you make it the inescapable wall to any unity ever again? What of this One of Whom the Apostle has written Ipse enim est pax nostra qui fecit utraque unum et medium parietem maceriae solvens inimicitias in carne sua? My question mark.

Anonymous said...

the internet site of MARIA LAURA PIO

( she is a ex-adept of Vassula)

www.infovassula.ch will show you,

how Vassula is a false prophet.

It is very important to read her

site (in english an other languages!

Cristina said...

Hello,

I would like to clarify a few things, since I have inside information. Metropolitan Corneanu did NOT invite her nor did he show any explicit support for her visit. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure he knows much about Vassula.

What DID happen is the following: Clergy and bishops and the Metropolitan received invitations to the meeting and were informed of the event by the organizers. The Metropolitan was not able to attend but he had sent an Orthodox priest from the area to give a little address on his behalf. The address was nothing more than a welcoming note and a mention of the beauty of the Feast of Pentecost, the birth date of the Church.

As such, I would hope that His Holiness' name will be cleared from this. He did not endorse the event nor did or support Vassula, at least not openly. Once again, it is not known whether he even knows much about her.

Anonymous said...

Christina,

Read the excellent report
of Father François Dermine on
www.infovassula.ch ,daniel crecan will understand
all about Vassula Ryden.
There are reports of religious autho
rities especially from the Vatican
and orthodoxes authorities!
This site is a critical site

Anonymous said...

the orthodox priest Daniel Crecan was on canonical trial and was excluded from priesthood for good. News from the Orthodox Diocese of Caransebes, Romania.

Anonymous said...

Daniel Crecan is now excluded from
the orthodoxe Diocese of Caransebes
( news from anonymous,nov 2)

I hope that Fr John Abberton will
inform Vassula and Father Laurentin of her responsabily
ty in that exclusion.She has destroyed a priest and his family!

Her credibility is now finish!

Tell all the orthodoxes othorities
and the Congragation of the Faith
to avoid Mrs Ryden for good!!

She can't pretend Unity for Christians in the world.

I pray for the truth.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 02 november,

Can you prouve with an Official

Patriarcal's document that is true?

Is Daniel Crecan is really excluded

from priesthood for good? It is

very serious, prouve it!

Anonymous said...

watch this if you understand romanian

http://www.ziuadevest.ro/eveniment/14599-erezie-pe-internet.html#comments

Anonymous said...

If it is for he Glory of GOD, where is the problem to have Catholicts and Ortodoxes celebrating JESUS sacrifice? stop arguing we need union and prayers for this union to happen at a global level, every soul counts for God. so let's unite and not become one of the dividers (every kingdom divided will fall of his own weigth)

Anonymous said...

New Forum Topic from
France Catholic journal:

Warning against Vassula

I sincerely believe that Father Laurentin is extremely naive about the origin of some paranormal and spiritualists like automatic writing.

A message received by automatic writing as Vassula describes can only be a spiritualist.

It is no means an inspiration of the Holy Spirit who has never used this method

Do not confuse, not,alas,divine inspiration and interference spiritualist.

Defending Vassula's writing such as the fact ,the abbot Laurentin showed great credulity.

Father Dominique AUZENET ( France)

Anonymous said...

"We therefore repeat it: the decisive question (for concelebration as for the Mass of a single priest) is not to know the fruit the soul draws from it, but the nature of the act which is performed: does or does not the priest, as minister of Christ, perform “actio Christi se ipsum sacrificantes et offerentis?”

Likewise for the sacraments, it is not a question of knowing the fruit produced by them, but whether the essential elements of the sacramental sign (the performing of the sign by the minister himself who performs the gestures and pronounces the words with the intention saltem faciendi quod facit ecclesia) have been validly performed.

Likewise, in celebration and concelebration, one must see whether, along with the necessary interior intention, the celebrant completes the external action, and, above all, pronounces the words which constitute the “actio Christi se ipsum sacrificantis et offerentis.” This is not verified when the priest does not pronounce over the bread and the wine our Lord’s words: “This is my Body,” “This is my Blood.”"The Liturgical Movement
An Address of Pope Pius XII to the
International Congress on Pastoral Liturgy (September 22, 1956)

Inés said...

The Liturgical Movement
An Address of Pope Pius XII to the
International Congress on Pastoral Liturgy
(September 22, 1956)

"Likewise for the sacraments, it is not a question of knowing the fruit produced by them, but whether the essential elements of the sacramental sign (the performing of the sign by the minister himself who performs the gestures and pronounces the words with the intention saltem faciendi quod facit ecclesia) have been validly performed.

Likewise, in celebration and concelebration, one must see whether, along with the necessary interior intention, the celebrant completes the external action, and, above all, pronounces the words which constitute the “actio Christi se ipsum sacrificantis et offerentis.” This is not verified when the priest does not pronounce over the bread and the wine our Lord’s words: “This is my Body,” “This is my Blood.”

Anonymous said...

Father Abberton is one of the TLIG Vassula's spiritual director.

Father Abberton's puzzling letter to the american TLIG Newsletter readers.

In this letter he should suggest the destruction of the TLIG reports interreligious pilgrimages and retreats of the last 12 years.

"At this time we need to take great care to avoid the possibility of any thing to remotely connected whith clergy of different traditions standing together and dressedfor the liturgy getting into the wrong hands....

To avoid any mistakes i have taken the view that we need to be VERY careful about the american newsletter which contains a photograph of this kind. Therefore i am asking you to remove the photo from the newsletter or to destroy the newsletter itself...."

Father Abberton






Following the report on www.infovassula.ch

The other one is Recent problem:

" You may have heard that a Romanian priest has been severely disciplined by his bishop because of his involvment in a TLIG meeting where he celebrated an Orthodox mass of a Catholic priest. ( it was not a concelebration) Unfortunatly it seems that the enemties of TLIG are now trawlingthe inernet and looking for anything they can used against us..... Father Abberton

following on www.infovassula.ch

Is Father Abberton an exorsit?

Anonymous said...

In answer to the last question.

Yes Fr Abberton is an exorcist. but his comments about enemies searching the internet is not valid, because why ask for all the news letters to be destroyed, and the comment 'perhaps we can recover from this'.

Fr David (Monks and Mermiads) said...

It has been asked whether, when a Catholic and an Orthodox recite the Creed together, the Catholic would use the "Filioque". If the Creed is said in Greek, it would be without the "Filioque" because a subtle change in the meaning takes place when the "Filioque is said in Greek with all kinds of unacceptable theological consequences. In other languages in the Byzantine Rite it is left to the celebrant. However, Pope Benedict has said that in our interpretation of the phrase, it must be in accordance with Nicaea.

About communicatio in sacris, Fr George Florovsky wrote that, historically, the schism has never been water tight. He also said that in Orthodoxy and Cathoicism there are, not two traditions, but one Tradition whose elements have become separated from one another while still belonging to each other. NO one can accuse him of being a Uniate or of being indifferent to our differences. Some theologians of good standing, Catholic and Orthodox, share this line of thinking, not because they are modernists or weak-kneed liberals, but on strictly theological grounds. Shouting insults only shows prejudice: argument and prayer is the stuff of authentic theology.

Anonymous said...

Daniel Crecan was invited to the pilgrimage organized by Vassula in ROME ( 04/09/2011 To 11/09/2011)

He represented his country "ROMANIA" and was showned with his liturgy clothes!


How can he could do this ?

This priest is no longer allowed to exercice priesthood for having concelebrated with a catholic priest! He has been relieved from
his duties as retor from this exercice of priesthood by the Bishop of Caransebes!!

Saint Victor said...

The warning of Mrs Vassula Ryden
by the(4) Archbishops and(4) Bishops of the Province of Marseille:
Vassula Ryden in Marseille 11/20/2011

The Bishops of the Province of Marseille would bring the attention of Catholics in their dioceses that this event is in no way connected to our church.The acts of religious, mass, prayers of delivrance and healing -i they occur,will be out of communion with the Catholic Church.

http://nice.cef.fr/actu_anciennes.php?action=24u