Rorate Caeli
Baltimore Anglicans becoming Catholic -- but are they already more "Catholic" than most Catholics?


Wonderful news from the Baltimore Sun, where it is being reported that the Mount Calvary Episcopal Church in Baltimore on Sunday "became the first congregation in Maryland to vote to break ties with the Episcopal Church and take steps to join the Roman Catholic Church."

According to the paper of record in the oldest Archdiocese in the country: "The small Anglo Catholic parish ... was feeling increasingly alienated from the Episcopal Church as it accepted priests who did not believe in what most of the congregation saw as the foundations of the faith ... The Episcopal Diocese of Maryland issued a statement Monday about the vote, but both the bishop and the rector, the Rev. Jason Catania, declined to be interviewed. A spokesman for the Archdiocese of Baltimore, Sean Caine, said the Catholic Church would welcome the congregation."


As you will see by these photos -- in them what appears to be a thorough sensus Catholicus -- these current Protestants look very traditionally Catholic. In fact, they look more Catholic than most Novus Ordo Catholics.


That begs two questions:

1.) How will these traditional Anglicans, especially the soon-to-be priests, feel when they begin to mix and mingle with the typical Novus Ordo priest, many of whom, at least in terms of liturgy and orthodoxy, are more entrenched in Protestantism than the Protestants? [this shunning of traditional priests already happens with many FSSP priests, so no need to pretend it's not a problem] and ...

2.) What does it say about the state of the Roman Catholic Church when Protestants have a Catholic identity tenfold greater than the average Novus Ordo "Catholic community"?

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53 comments:

David L Alexander said...

This parish is down the street from the Joseph Richie House, a hospice that was established by the All Saints Sisters in nearby Catonsville. The sisters, also mentioned in the story, reconciled with the church about a year ago, and have had a long history with Mt Calvary.

KnotWilbur said...

In truth, I believe that this says more about that which is, in most instances, Novus Ordo. I also say, to our new brethren, Welcome.

LeonG said...

When the new church gave up the Latin Mass I used to go to The Lady Chapel in a High Anglican Church - All Saints - near my home and attend a Latin Anglican Mass which would have fooled the most fervent traditional Catholic had they not known. That is the desperatio one felt for such a tragic loss at the time. Does anyone here know what language they use in their liturgy in Baltimore?

Anonymous said...

"As you will see by these photos -- in them what appears to be a thorough sensus Catholicus -- these current Protestants look very traditionally Catholic. In fact, they look more Catholic than most Novus Ordo Catholics."

What does that prove?

Schismatic Eastern Orthodox clergymen "look more Catholic" than the Pope and so-called "Novus Ordo" Cardinals, bishops and priests.

An "independent" Traditional Latin Mass "Catholic" priest who insists that Pope Benedict XVI is a heretic "looks more Catholic" than the Pope.

When he offers the Traditional Latin Mass, an FSSP priest (or any priest), for example, "looks more Catholic" than Pope Benedict XVI, who offers the novelty-filled Novus Ordo Mass.

Bishop Fellay, as the result of his attachment to Holy Tradition, "looks more Catholic" than the Holy Father.

So?

Pascendi said...

There are only Catholics irrespective of the rite they attend.

Oremusrob said...

Welcome to the new Catholics!

I have always found it interesting that, however liberal and nutty Episcopal theology and morals has become overall, it seems, at least where I am, that liturgically, they tend to be somewhat more traditional than the average Novus Ordu Catholic parish.

What does this all say about the present-day Catholic Church? Propriety, respectfulness, charity, cordiality and the need to refrain from use of vulgarities preclude me from stating what my initial viscerally driven thoughts were in response to this wonderful question.

Dev Thakur said...

Certainly the concern (about how they will mesh with your typical newchurch Catholics) is warranted.

On a positive/optimistic note, this will increase the population of traditionally minded priests and laity from which the rest of the Church will learn, be influenced, etc.

As my wife recently told me, when she was annoyed by hearing someone mock some people who went to the New Mass and had little liturgical sense, "if it weren't for [x, y and z influence] I would never have known these things about how the Mass was, and what Mass is supposed to be."

I pray and hope that this decision will influence precisely those types of Catholics who don't hate tradition, they just really don't know better! They haven't been taught, and that is our fault.

Christopher J. Paulitz said...

Anon: it proves that most Catholics are barely Catholic. That's pretty much it.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous 16:33

It shows the liturgical degradation found in a great many novus ordo parishes when Anglican liturgy looks utterly Catholic and novus ordo Catholic liturgy looks pagan, modernist, protestant, perverse, self-loathing, or, more customarily, an alarming mix of all of the above.

That fact in turn shows the poverty of the novus ordo.

Anonymous said...

"There are only Catholics irrespective of the rite they attend."

No. There are Catholics who seek out and hold fast to holy Tradition and to the Roman Mass of Tradition, and there are Catholics who for whatever reason do not, who are willing to be fed with a provably inferior liturgy of provably suspect provenance. To scuttle that fact, to pretend there is no abiding critical difference, is sophistry.

Cruise the Groove. said...

"Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi."

Anonymous said...

Anon: it proves that most Catholics are barely Catholic. That's pretty much it.

"Barely" Catholic? A Catholic is a Catholic. If a Catholic is in Communion with Holy Mother Church, then he or she is 100 percent Catholic.

Picard said...

annon: "So?"

--- Are you kidding??
Is it normal that they all look more Catholic than the Pope??

Those mentioned by you should not look more Catholic than the Pope!

If the Pope looks less Catholic than those then something is deadly wrong!!

Anonymous said...

It is irresponsible of this blog to have declared that Protestants "have a Catholic identity tenfold greater than the average Novus Ordo 'Catholic community.'"

That is utter nonsense from this otherwise fine blog.

By the way, is Pope Benedict XVI's "Novus Ordo community (the Diocese of Rome)" less "Catholic" than the Protestant community mentioned in the article at hand?

Pope Benedict XVI teaches that Communion in the hand, altar girls and any number of "Novus Ordo" practices are legitimate.

Does that make him less Catholic than "Catholic" Protestants?

Anonymous said...

"How will these traditional Anglicans, especially the soon-to-be priests, feel when they begin to mix and mingle with the typical Novus Ordo priest, many of whom, at least in terms of liturgy and orthodoxy, are more entrenched in Protestantism than the Protestants?"

Would that include Pope Benedict XVI, a "Novus Ordo priest" who incorporates, for example, Communion in the hand and a number of "Protestant" practices during his liturgies?

The Pope has given his blessings to altar girls.

Uh-oh

Christopher J. Paulitz said...

"'Barely' Catholic? A Catholic is a Catholic. If a Catholic is in Communion with Holy Mother Church, then he or she is 100 percent Catholic."

Yes, indeed. But barely.

Anonymous said...

"Barely' Catholic? A Catholic is a Catholic. If a Catholic is in Communion with Holy Mother Church, then he or she is 100 percent Catholic."

Yes, indeed. But barely."

Which is to say, quite correctly, that the Catholic Church at present is NOT "in communion" with its own history, its perennial Tradition, at the very least as that continuity is expressed in liturgy and praxis. That Catholic people are hesitant to say these things, while perhaps understandable, is indisputably a pointless retreat, in that any coddling of the crisis in the Catholic Church, which lamentably has existed for over 40 years, can not argue from the truth of the root of that cause. and serves only to confuse the reasons for the crisis, prolonging it by failing to speak and act accordingly to the easily recognisable truth of that root cause, and therefore ultimately serving the enemies of the Church. The root cause is the long planned assault of Modernism inside the Roman Church. To say less than that is to conflate error with truth.

Athanasian said...

@ David L Alexander: "This parish is down the street from the Joseph Richie House, a hospice that was established by the All Saints Sisters..."

A slight correction, David. The Joseph Richey Hospice was founded by Mount Calvary Church and the All Saints' Sisters. The hospice is named after the Rev. Joseph Richey, the 7th rector of Mount Calvary Church who died in 1879. Most of the buildings which house the hospice were donated by Mount Calvary Church.

John L said...

Please, it doesn't 'beg questions"! It raises questions!

The young fogey said...

Services at Mount Calvary are in English.

I have always found it interesting that, however liberal and nutty Episcopal theology and morals has become overall, it seems, at least where I am, that liturgically, they tend to be somewhat more traditional than the average Novus Ordo Catholic parish.

How that came to be.

Andrew said...

That was my observation when I visited a TAC chapel a year ago or so. I found it sad that at least in their devotional and liturgical life, they were more Catholic than all the actual Catholic parishes of my city aside from the FSSP and Byzantine churches.

That said, it is true that in reality even the silly NO parishes are "more Catholic" than any Protestant church no matter how "Catholic" they look in their externals simply because of valid Orders.

However, this being the case, it makes it all that much more sad that people who do not even have valid Orders and so forth maintained Catholic practices more faithfully than legitimate Catholics whose duty it is to preserve our patrimony. It certainly does say something when we have people in our Church that seem hell-bent to out-Protestant the Protestants and people in the Protestant groups that seem just as enthusiastic to out-Catholic us.

Ben Vallejo said...

Is the Tridentine Rite the only legitimate and superior Catholic expression?

The Catholic Church has always insisted that all the rites are equally Catholic, including the Traddie despised "Novus Ordo". The Novus Ordo is Catholic because Rome says it is so.

And BTW, the Mt Calvary parish when they voted to join the Catholic Church are no longer Protestants. They are as Catholic as all of us.

The question is whether Mt Calvary would adopt that liturgies of the Anglican Ordinariate. This may not be Tridentine. Now if they adopt these liturgies will they be less Catholic than what this blog post presumes they are now?

The Ordinariate would have a liturgy that is not Roman (as EF or OF) but ANGLICAN in communion with Rome. But the Ordinariates would probably have the OF (celebrated as what the rubrics intended) and the EF is there is a need. After all these forms are authorized throughout the Latin Church (of which the Ordinariates are part of). Any priest can celebrate these uses. But will the Anglicans want that?

Anonymous said...

"And BTW, the Mt Calvary parish when they voted to join the Catholic Church are no longer Protestants. They are as Catholic as all of us."

They are? When did they join the Church?

The following is from the Catholic Archdiocese of Baltimore's Catholic Review:

"Diane Barr, chancellor for the Archdiocese of Baltimore, said Mount Calvary must resolve internal issues such as property before proceeding with entering into the Catholic Church as a group.

“Once that has been resolved – and that’s purely between them,” she said, “we would then offer them the opportunity to enter into an education process about the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

"It would be similar to an RCIA process for a group of persons entering into the church.”

Barr said a local Catholic pastor would be appointed to work with Mount Calvary parishioners seeking entry into the faith.

“Each person would have to follow their own conscience on whether they would want to come into the Roman Catholic Church,” she said.

“We want to be very respectful of the individual person’s journey, just like we would with any person’s journey.”

Oct 26, 2010

The young fogey said...

I understand that, for now, or from the time Mount Calvary converts, it will use the Anglican Use, a hybrid of the Novus Ordo and 1979 Episcopal Prayer Book that at least looks old-fashioned and uses mostly 'thou' language. Not as good as something Tridentine-based, like the American Missal, a hybrid of the 1928 Episcopal book with the Tridentine Mass written around it, but better than run-of-the-mill NO. The Anglican Use will get the same makeover at the end of next year as the rest of the NO: the improved English translation Pope Benedict ordered. I hope the ordinariates may use more than one liturgy, such as the American Missal and the English Missal (a translation of the Tridentine Mass).

John McFarland said...

As one of the faithful of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, I am quite pleased that the Archdiocese is going to require that the members of the Mount Calvary congregation undergo instruction.

However, I would not be surprised if the focus of the instruction is more geared to trying to Novus Ordoize them than to correct any Anglican errors.

Note the remarks of Chancellor Barr:

“We want to be very respectful of the individual person’s journey, just like we would with any person’s journey.”

Presumably this respect for the individual journey includes respect for the individual journeys to Hell that are the likely fate of those who decline to accept the one Faith.

Anonymous said...

Ah... I am so envious! I live in the Diocese of Steubenville, Ohio, and teach at Franciscan University, where the liturgy is an absolute wasteland. Will we never be allowed to come of the desert and join the real renewal that is taking place in the traditional Mass?

Anonymous said...

Diane Barr, chancellor (!!!) for the Archdiocese of Baltimore, said...“we would then offer them the opportunity to enter into an education process about the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. It would be similar to an RCIA process for a group of persons entering into the church.”

Oh, Lord! Pray that these good Christians can survive whatever RCIA torture the Diocese forces them to undergo! Here is the real problem.... these people are way too Catholic for the Amchurch. The Bishops will do everything they can to prevent traditional Anglicans from slowing the "renewal" (i.e. demolition) of the faith in America!

David L Alexander said...

It is unlikely that the clergy and congregation is going into this with their eyes closed. For years, such reservations have been contemplated by them, as well as by the All Saints Sisters in Catonsville, before they made the switch. That is why it has taken as long as it has. And so, they are likely aware of the modernist tendencies they will confront.

As to the liturgy, for now, they will have to use the Book of Divine Worship, an "anglicanized" version of the reformed Roman Missal (celebrated versus populum perhaps, unless the priest supplied to them will be accomodating, until their own is ordained). With the liberation of the Traditional Mass three years ago, the prospect of using any variation of the "Missale Anglicanum" is much more likely, and the future plans for an Ordinariate would see that on the table.

Anglican priests who are re-ordained, or in some cases, ordained conditionally (which, despite what has been said, is not only possible, but has happened), and who are also married at the time, will be considered on a case-by-case basis. The general sympathy does not hold their marital status against them, although the ability to support the family will be paramount.

To say that an Anglican congregation "looks Catholic" is to view more than the mere cosmetic. Read their books, listen to their preaching, examine the prayers they use for their Mass. They are often indistinguishable from traditional Catholic teaching and practice. We can assume, then, that such a move was a long time coming. But the last step is often the hardest.

John McFarland said...

Anonymous 20:48,

There is no Latin Mass at Steubenville?

Are the Holy Rollers still in charge?

What's Scott Hahn up to these days?

Anonymous said...

Mr. McFarland,

For a time, there was a Latin Mass at one diocesan church, once per month. It was very well attended, but I have heard nothing about it in at least nine months. On campus, there are Latin NO Masses, and an occasional Trad Mass, invariably at bizarre times (like a Tuesday at 8:00 PM) but I never set foot in our Chapel. It is too hideously ugly. Besides, there are issues involved that I cannot mention here. I will only say that orthodoxy and obedience are highly selective at Franciscan. (Example: (1) we had altar girls two years before they were approved, and every mass still has a bazillion "extraordinary" ministers. (2) a theology professor here recently told students they should pray for the intercession (!!!) of Archbishop Bugnini, because he is "certainly in heaven" - what, for having wrecked the liturgy?) What is Hahn doing? Ah, poor Scott... playing both sides of everything, darling of orthodox Catholics and flatterer of the charismatics! As long as you can pay his speaking fee...

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Mr. McFarland:

I've deleted your comment due to your insulting "guess" about Mr. Vallejo's belief regarding Holy Mass.

I agree with you that far too many who attend the Novus Ordo don't believe in the teachings of the Church (as defined in Trent) regarding the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. However, it is absolutely none of your business to "guess" that a specific individual must be one of them, just because he has written something that you disagree with

Anonymous said...

No, there is still no every-Sunday T.L.M. in the D. of Steubenville. It is disgraceful. Msgr. Yontz at St. Peter Church there implies that there is not enough support all year 'round. As for the University, well, good luck. But it's not a Catholic institution; it's charismatic. I'm surprised they haven't enlisted Jimmy Swaggert, the swaggering braggart, as chaplain.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Anon. wrote:

"Archbishop Bugnini, because he is "certainly in heaven"

Actually, he may very well be in Heaven. Unlike us, God is capable of miracles of the most astounding proportions. The charismatics have no doubt seen Bugnini on the other side in their mad ravings but we might ask the other side of what.

At any rate, the good news is that Bugnini is not here on earth. He can't do any damage in Heaven because God will not be hiring him to change the way things are done there.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Alexander:

In fact, I have reason to believe that the incomers will not be saddled with that horrible "Book of Divine Worship". I can't say too much more without breaking some promises. I can ask that you pray on this.

While the liturigical problems for the incomers are not yet resolved, they at least have avoided being saddled with a personal prelature, which would have thwarted them ab ovo. It was not for any lack of saboteurs who tried to give them that structure. But, fortunately, our Lady, in her mercy, intervened and protected them through her prayers. May she protect us as well.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Vallejo:

You fail to make proper distinctions. If, by 'Catholic', you mean that a certain liturgy is approved by the Church, then the N.O. is just as Catholic as any other Mass.

But if you mean 'Catholic' in terms of its liturical value or its faithful reflection of Catholic tradition or of Catholic doctrine, the N.O. is obviously flawed seriously. The principle of indefectibility does not prevent Holy Church from approving liturgical texts that are flawed, even seriously so.

The liturgies of the incoming Anglicans include passages that are problematical. Let's be dead honest. Our recusant ancestors would be outraged at the inclusion of a phrase, in reference to Christ, as "our only Mediator and Advocate". Nobody would deny that that phrase is true when properly understood, but everyone knew in the past damn well why it was intruded into a revised Protestant liturgy and what it was meant to imply. The fact that the incoming Anglicans have, so far, kept that one, should be cause for concern.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a strong supporter of the incomers. But I would not want to compromise on matters of doctrine or principles of liturgy.

There will be bumpts along this road.

P.K.T.P.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Mr. Vallejo, you said:


"And BTW, the Mt Calvary parish when they voted to join the Catholic Church are no longer Protestants. They are as Catholic as all of us."

No, they are not yet Catholic. They have not been received into the Church. The mere intent to become Catholic doesn't make someone a Catholic; otherwise the sacraments have no real value.

John McFarland said...

Mr. Palad,

Those who understand the theology of the Mass in accordance with the teaching of the Holy Council of Trent do not speak as Mr. Vallejo speaks. That was the basis of my guess that he did not understand the theology of the Mass.

If I am wrong, I will be very pleased -- but even more surprised. There are not many places where one can learn it. In this connection I'm always reminded of a document on the Eucharist by Pope John Paul the Great in which he quoted at length from Trent, but excised the part about the Mass being a propitiary sacrifice.

If Mr. Vallejo did take offense, he has my apologies. But the point was not to insult him, but to draw him out and get him thinking.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

Mr. Vallejo, you asked:


"Is the Tridentine Rite the only legitimate and superior Catholic expression?"

No, it is obviously not the only legitimate one. However, it is totally orthodox to ask the question of whether a specific Rite is superior in presenting the fullness of the Catholic faith in comparison to another lawful Rite. Traditionalists agree on one thing: the Classical Roman Rite is better, far better, in preserving and transmitting the immutable Faith of the True Church than the Novus Ordo.

Traditionalists certainly haven't put up with all the injustices and calumnies that have gone their way for the past 46 years merely because they liked the aesthetics of the Classical Roman Rite better!

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"Don't get me wrong: I'm a strong supporter of the incomers. But I would not want to compromise on matters of doctrine or principles of liturgy.

There will be bumps along this road."

Correct. I will be surprised if none of the first wave of Ordinariate converts end up crossing back into the Anglican wilderness.

Anonymous said...

RE THE COMING ANGLICATHOLIC LITURGY


The current Anglican Use has several major flaws but I think it may be on the way out. Its inclusion of the N.O. Offertory, for instance, makes it completely unCatholic in spirit.


Unfortunately, from the Protestant heresy, it has kept that "only Mediator and Advocate" to imply that our Lady and the angels and saints are not mediators. I'm not sure if this troubling phrase (even though it does have an orthodox interpretation) will survive or not.

A much smaller problem is one of tone. The Anglicatholics, as I like to call them, have almost entirely removed the obvious Protestant Cranmerisms, so that they have a deProtestantised Anglican liturgy. But the tone is still, shall we say, 'straight-backed Anglican Protestant of the eighteenth century'. However, this will only occur to a few literary people. I may be living in a different world but most people are living in the twenty-first century and this will not occur to them. Most moderns do not hear echoes of Caroline divines because they have no idea what Caroline divines even are (are they a rare type of bird? a fish? a chemical? a mineral?).

P.K.T.P.

Andrew said...

P.K.T.P. – Thanks for your ongoing concern that the Ordinariate liturgy is done right. I am confident that the holy father has not overlooked this little detail.

About the “only Mediator and Advocate” objection: It must be put in liturgical context. If it stands alone as a denial of the intercession of the blessed Virgin, then yes, of course it is a heretical formula. However, a lot of water has passed under the bridge since Cranmer. If you look at current Anglo-Catholic liturgy, e.g. the English Missal, this formula is simply given as a “prayerbook option”, in the canon of the mass where the blessed Virgin is mentioned six times, for example,

“United in one communion, we venerate the memory, first, of the glorious ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ: [as also of blessed Joseph, her most chaste spouse,]* and thy blessed Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Thaddeus: Linus, Cletus, Clement, Xystus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian: and of all thy Saints; grant that by their merits and prayers we may in all things be defended with the help of thy protection. [He joins his hands.] Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.”

In such a liturgy, it is impossible to give the phrase a heretical meaning.

About the “tone” issue: I think the problem will be more widespread, because in the experience of pew-sitting Catholics, the only people they have ever heard use “thees and thous” in worship are protestants, and some may have a hard time separating the language from this history. Even for the educated, tone goes beyond liturgical language, and also affect the way of presenting and understanding the faith. You are not the only person worried about “tone”. Cardinal Manning worried about it quite a lot concerning that young upstart: “I see much danger of an English Catholicism of which Newman is the highest type. It is the old Anglican, patristic, literary, Oxford tone transplanted into the Church.”

However, this tone is exactly the Anglican Patrimony which is according to the pope, is “a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared.”

Ben Vallejo said...

As for the Catholic uses approved by Rome, I have to defer to what the Pope says and uses. The Pope to my knowledge has used and continue to use the Mass of Paul VI in public celebrations although he has desired that traditional elements be used. The Pope uses the Mass of Paul VI and that is what matters for me.

Anglicanorum Coetibus and its norms would suggest that going the usual RCIA mode is not the way to go! The Ordinariates will have to devise their own way of accepting Anglicans. If the Archdiocese of Baltimore really respects Anglican patrimony, then it should let the Pastoral Provision scheme apply. But the Pastoral Provision is designed to answer the process of accepting Anglican clergy into the Catholic Church.

Anglicans in communion with Rome will likely use an analogue of the EF and OF of the Roman Rite. There will likely be a Rite II Eucharist and a Rite I more like the 1928 BCP with the Cranmerian eucharistic rite removed. We just hope that it is better than the faulty ICEL translations of the past.

And while there may be Cranmerian expressions that will be retained, it must be understood that this should be taken in the context of the whole liturgy and Catholic faith that has been professed by the Anglicans in communion with Rome.

I am of the opinion that "our only Mediator and Advocate" should be understood in the context of Catholic understanding and not the Calvinist one. Anyway this phrase cannot be interpreted deny transubstantiation like that "It would become for us our spiritual drink" in the Novus Ordo. Now which is more Calvinist? BTW, Rome was willing to accept the whole BCP lock stock and barrel in the hope of reunion. This was floated during the martyred Abp Laud's primacy.

The Ordinariates should be aware that adopting a Tridentine liturgy as an Anglican Liturgy in the Catholic Church may not do justice to the Anglican patrimony like as making the Anglican Liturgies more Novus Ordo like. The Missale Anglicanum is in itself a hybrid, as propers in the BCP and the kalendar can be used.

However, the spirit of the post Vatican II "reforms" made many Catholic minded Anglicans switch to a rite almost a clone of the Novus Ordo. Again this does not do justice to the Anglican patrimony.

But all must realise that the Ordinariate rite cannot be a resurrection of Sarum, York or other ancient uses of England. It will most likely be a rite very BCP with Roman elements which may include some from the "horrors" of Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass.

Well this could be God's way of bringing home the Pope's desire that the Novus Ordo and Tridentine Mass "mutually enriching" each other. The Tridentine traditionalists in this blog may shudder at the thought! If we are accepting of the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and his pastoral care, then we shouldn't fear!

Ben Vallejo said...

And BTW, when I wrote that the Baltimore Anglicans are Catholic as you and I are, I write this in the spirit of Christ in the Gospels. The After all how can you call them "Protestant" if they have turned away from everything Calvinism stands for?

Picard said...

Andrew,

the rememberance or even veneration of the blessed Virgin (and the saints) is not sufficient - the crucial question is: can we interrogate/beg her (and the saints) for praying/to pray for us, is she (are they) mediators and intercessors.

That´s also a crucial point (and problem) of the NOM.

Well of course, the Virgin Mary and the Saints are mentioned and venerated even if you use the poor 2. Canon.

But you can celebrate the NOM - according to the rubrics - without any invocation of them, without mentioning their merits and their intercessorial power.

That two points (merits of the Saints, invocation as intercessors) appear more than once in the TLM and are the crucial points for the Protestants (not the pure mentioning or even veneration).

And so in the NOM this two points (merits of the Saints, their intercession) are eleminated totaly and not mentioned once (if you take the respective options you can choose totaly licit[ly], so f.e. the 2. Canon and Kyrie-invocations instead of the Confiteor)!!

John McFarland said...

Dear Mr. Vallejo,

Not to be a Calvinist is not to be a Catholic.

Indeed, not to be a Protestant is not to be a Catholic.

We are indeed shuddering, but we are Traditionalists tout court, not Tridentine Traditionalists. The Faith was old -- and the same as it is today -- when the ink was still drying on the decrees of Trent.

By contrast, Anglo-Catholicism is a 19th century creation; the talk of a "patrimony" reflects the English genius for treating things put on the rails a year and a half ago as if their origins preceded King Cole.

Mr. Perkins insists that the TACers of his acquaintance are doctrinally sound. But with all due respect, that just doesn't square with their staying out of the Catholic Church until they could cut a deal to bring their "patrimony" with them.

(Nor has it escaped my notice that your own view of the future is that the "patrimony" will disappear into a NEW liturgical mishmash.)

These folks are on the run from sodomite and female clerics, and figure(correctly) that the Catholic Church will let them continue to do what they've been doing and believe what they've been believing.

The young fogey said...

Anglo-Catholicism is a 19th-century creation.

True.

That said, getting back to the original topic, Pope Benedict is letting this in NOT to import Protestantism but to shore up his conservative revival including the trads.

Anglo-Catholic practice is a legitimate variation like Italian, Polish etc. national parishes in a default Irish-American diocese.

Catholic beliefs and Catholic practice based on 19th-century Roman Catholic practice.

Ben Vallejo said...

It seems that the litmus test of Benedictine orthodoxy in Catholic liturgical practice is this

I swear to God on this Holy Cross and the Bible that the EF and OF mutually enrich each other!

Deo gratias for our Holy Father, our Pope of Rome, Benedict XVI!

Andrew said...

Picard,

Perhaps I did not stress this point: The English Missal *is* the TLM in hieratic English with bits of the prayerbook included as options.

See here for the ordinary of the mass:
http://home.comcast.net/~acbfp/knottmissal.html

While we still do not know what uses will be approved beyond the "book of divine worship", this Missal has been used for many years in Anglo-Catholic worship. I would be interested to know if you consider it "sufficient" from a theological viewpoint. If so, then it would be an improvement on the NOM by your argument.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"Perhaps I did not stress this point: The English Missal *is* the TLM in hieratic English with bits of the prayerbook included as options."

And with the pre-1955 Holy Week and rubrics to boot!

I certainly won't have any objections to the use of this Missal, although I think that 1) the "option" for the Our Father almost at the beginning of the Mass has to go, it being a Cramnerian innovation for the sake of innovation, and 2) the "Prayer Book Alternative" for the Anaphora should be excised.

However, the English Missal's form of the Bidding Prayers (which, I think, are modelled on medieval precedents and which has parallels in French practice down to the 19th century), the Confession before the Preface, the Collect for Purity, the Prayer of Thanksgiving after Communion and the alternative form of blessing strike me as beautiful additions that do no harm whatsoever to the form and flow of the Canon Missae of the Classical Roman Rite.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"However, the English Missal's form of the Bidding Prayers (which, I think, are modelled on medieval precedents and which has parallels in French practice down to the 19th century), the Confession before the Preface, the Collect for Purity, the Prayer of Thanksgiving after Communion and the alternative form of blessing strike me as beautiful additions that do no harm whatsoever to the form and flow of the Canon Missae of the Classical Roman Rite."

Oops, that should be "Ordo Missae", not Canon Missae!


I'll add that, throughout the history of the Roman Rite, even in recent centuries, the practice of inserting bits and pieces of prayer here and there in the Ordo Missae never ceased, and was sometimes sanctioned by local ecclesiastical authorities. I am thinking here of the "Bidding Prayers" in French-speaking areas and the devotional exhortation on the Blessed Sacrament just before Communion that was practiced in some places.

Carlos Antonio Palad said...

"It seems that the litmus test of Benedictine orthodoxy in Catholic liturgical practice is this

I swear to God on this Holy Cross and the Bible that the EF and OF mutually enrich each other!"

Mr. Vallejo:

Your efforts to force Traditionalists to embrace elements of the Novus Ordo are really getting repetitive and tiresome. Please take your advocacy elsewhere.

The young fogey said...

I'm sure most English Missal users wouldn't mind if the Cranmer options went away as most didn't like Cranmer any more than we do, most didn't use those options and those options were in the book only so Anglican priests whose bishops enforced Prayer Book use had something to fall back on to pray aloud while sneaking the Tridentine Mass around that.

Again I'd be happy with the option of the old American Prayer Book framed by the Tridentine Mass, the American Missal and the Anglican Missal, American Edition. IMO it works because despite Cranmer's heresy, he still shared with the Catholic Church a 16th-century Godward worldview. In the context of a Mass patterned on the Tridentine, by an RC priest, 'our only Mediator and Advocate' for example isn't a problem (after all, it's true - the saints and we are only mediators and advocates by participating in Christ).

So my picks for ordinariate Masses are Ordinary Form in English as cleaned up by Pope Benedict and in Latin with traditional-like ceremonial, Extraordinary Form in English (Knott/English Missal), Extraordinary Form in Latin and the American Missal and Anglican Missal, American Edition for ex-Episcopalians who wants a catholicised Prayer Book (better than the Anglican Use now; less NO and more Tridentine).

The young fogey said...

A word about thous and thees: other than sentimental reasons I can take or leave them. Interestingly Protestants who have centuries-old traditions of praying in English often still worship with them, from Episcopalians' Rite I option to the Baptist fundamentalists sticking to the King James Bible; RCs often don't like them and think they're Protestant EXCEPT for prayers they've long done in English, those of the Rosary, so even the most liberal NO parish reverts to thou to pray the Our Father.