Rorate Caeli

Grazie, Bishop Crusade!!!
Takbir to be heard all over Milan

So, no reciprocity from Saudi Arabia, then? How appropriate that the Bishop's name is Crociata (Crusade)!

Italy: Muslims thank Italian bishops leader for backing Milan mosque 
Milan, 25 May (AKI) - Italy's largest Muslim group has sent a message to Italy's highest ranking bishop to thank him for his organisation's support for a project to construct a mosque in Milan, the country's conservative business hub. 
In the message to Angelo Bagnasco, who leads Italy's Bishops' Conference (CEI), the UCOII said: "We are relieved and immensely grateful for the position voiced by senior officials from the Italian Bishops' Conference in support of official places of worship for Muslims, an issue which nowadays has wrongly become a political hot potato." 
"The brotherly solidarity of the great majority of Christians, which we have experienced at thousands of inter-faith gatherings and debates, has been strongly confirmed," the statement added. 
Speaking to journalists on Tuesday during the CEI's general assembly at the Vatican, CEI secretary-general Mariano Crociata said the Catholic Church backed "the right to freedom of worship and places of worship to exercise this fundamental right".
"We must take account of the social needs of our communities as Italy's constitution requires," Crociata said. 
Muslims were due on Wednesday to rally in Milan's central Piazza San Babila in support of the opposition centre-left's candidate for mayor Giuliano Pisapia who has voiced support for the building of a Milan mosque. ...
The issue of an official mosque is a politically charged one in Milan which has been a conservative stronghold for almost two decades. Moratti, a former national education minister from the ruling People of Freedom Party says she opposes the construction of the mosque requested by Muslims. 
Pisapia has criticised Moratti's position saying Milan should allow a proper place of worship for its Muslim community, which has been forced to hold prayers in makeshift venues such as garages and a disused cycle stadium. [Source: ADNKronos]

43 comments:

Anonymous said...

Bagnasco for Pope in the next conclave like some have clammored for.....not on your life!
It would be back to the liberal agendas.

I pray that Pope Benedict XVI (while no conservative), lasts as Pope long enough so that people like Bagnasco, Maradiaga, Bertone,Ravasi, Arinze, Scola, Schonborn, Vinght-Trois, and others assumed to be "papabile" are too old....well into their 70's and thus practically uneligible.

What a surprise to the liberals if Pope Benedict XVI (though a liberal of sorts), is supported not by another Vatican II moderant/liberal, but rather by a true, hardline conservative who while still acknowledging Vatican II(but willing to supress much of it and nonetheless far less accepting of it's principles, and who instead loves Catholic tradition were elected Pope.
That would be an ideal Pope!

CredoUtIntelligam said...

This is from the Pope's address to the Bishops of India posted below:

Moreover, as Indian Christians strive to live in peace and harmony with their neighbours of other beliefs, your prudent leadership will be crucial in the civil and moral task of working to safeguard the fundamental human rights of freedom of religion and freedom of worship. As you know, these rights are based upon the common dignity of all human beings and are recognized throughout the concert of nations. The Catholic Church strives to promote these rights for all religions throughout the world.

The Pope is not talking here about a "prudential adaptation to modern conditions" or "tolerance," but rather a fundamental right based on "human dignity" that was newly discovered at Vatican II.

The Italian Bishops are simply following Vatican II and the Pope. The Italian Bishops are doing what they are supposed to be doing. They are, as the Holy Father put it, striving "to promote these rights for all religions around the world."

Anonymous said...

When is all this babble going to be finito? It's depressing and I dare to say a cowardly politically correct move from The Bishop's Conference. Should I be saying this? Are they so blind? And deaf? Aren't we supposed to be converting people of false religions? Most Catholics in Italy (trad and not), I venture to say, will not be happy with this approach from the Bishops. AAAAGGGGHH!

Anyway- to cheer us up, today is the feast of St. Philip Neri - one of my favourites.

St. Philip! ora pro nobis!
And a special prayer to you dear Saint for all Catholics of the Traditional bent who have a hard-time being light-hearted because of the most dire straits on many fronts that Holy Mother Church finds Herself in. Pray for our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI and all the bishops and priests. And give as a dose of your supernatural merriment, against all odds!

Barbara

Andreas said...

I'm confused by the phrase "Italy's highest ranking bishop" in the first sentence of this news report. Although popes reside in the Vatican City, doesn't the diocese of Rome extend into Italy?

Andreas said...

I'm confused by the phrase "Italy's highest ranking bishop" in the first sentence of this news report. Although popes reside in the Vatican City, doesn't the diocese of Rome extend into Italy?

Waiting for Pope Pius XIII said...

While I realize that Rorate Caeli places great importance on fundamental respect for the papal office and its occupant, we still need to soberly face up to the facts as well.

Second Vaticanist revisionism has given us this situation. Let nobody support and embrace Second Vatican and then think they can harshly condemn the building of mosques.

And from his days as a peritus in the heady 1960s, our present pope has been an avid supporter of this just about every step of the way, as well as his four immediate predecessors.

We should go easy on the rhetoric about the enemies outside the Church's walls. We have become our own worst enemy. And, as Michael Matt wrote a few months back, we should shudder at what may well be in store for us.

Anonymous said...

Is this not the Ambrosian diocese of the "old fox" Cardinal Martini? At least the Bishop is doing what the Pope is doing now (whereas Card Martini was doing public interviews advocating "abortion rights" and contraception), albeit this is not a good thing either are saying.

It is sad to continue to see Catholic Bishops and the Pope continue to talk about "freedom of worship" as a *RIGHT* "for all religions".

I can see a temporal decision to permit or tolerate the building of a Mosque in a city where numbers of Muslims are so large as to require some temporal solution rather than having them spill onto the streets during the 5 praying times of their day. But to call it a RIGHT is not Catholic.

We only need to consider God's perspective. He is a jealous God. Will we promote the handing over of property in our lands for the worship of false Gods, to raise His Divine ire?

Clearly, doing so is no *right* granted by the Divinity, although we can argue that God tolerates man's freedom to make wrong choices.

Of course, this whole point precludes the related but separate discussion about the decline of Christian populations to the increase of Mulsim immigrant populations in post-Christian lands.

That Mosques will need to be built throughout Europe to accomodate a burgeoning Islamic refugee and immigrant population is a given, but it is calling it a RIGHT that our clerics need to stop doing.

And if they will continue to be unclear on that front it is high time they push EU and Western leaders to demand the same of Islamic countries towards their Christian populations. The hypocrisy of Islamic nations has to be continuously called out and highlighted on the world stage with real sticks and consequences whenever the Shahbaz Bhatti's and Coptics and Latins and Syriacs in their lands are martyred for humbly offering their worship to the living God.

Anonymous said...

They can't back the Latin Mass but they can back a place of false worship , a mosque. Something is not right here. These guys are no more Catholic than a pagan!

Auricularis said...

These bishops are helping to sign the death warrant of Europe.

LeonG said...

Primacy of conscience indeed - if your conscience tells you to leave the Catholic Church and become a mohamaten then it is an imperative conversion. Obey your conscience or else.

LeonG said...

there is no need to be concerned for our safety since according to thew post-conciliar ecumenical and interreligious paradigm the UN is our last hope for world peace.

I am not Spartacus said...

Well, BCE, The Bestest Council Ever, taught that the Mahometans worship the same God we do. And then it counsels us to forget the past. No, seriously. That is the way it reads. Forget the past...

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom."

And that footnote. THAT is a source for a radical Doctrinal declaration. Really? A line lifted out of a letter...

"Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania (Pl. 148, col. 450f.)"

Hmm, I seem to recall recently reading a thing or two about Pope St. Gregory VII. Oh yeah, it was in Dom Gueranger's, “The Liturgical Year.” Here is what I read;

“And yet, Gregory was that Father of the Christian world who, from the very commencement of his pontificate, was full of the thought of driving the Mahometans out of Europe, and of delivering the Christians from the yoke of the Saracens. It was the inspiration taken uo by his successors, and carried out under the name of the Crusades. In a letter addressed to all the faithful, our Saint thus speaks of the enemy of the Christian name, whom he describes as being at the very gates of Constantinople, committing every kind of outrage and cruelty....(writing to King Henry, the Great Pope continues in this vein)...At this moment fifty thousand men are preparing; and, if they can have me to head the expedition as leader and Pontiff, they are willing to march to battle agasint the enemies of God, and, with divine assistance, to go even to ouur Lord's sepulchre.”

Gosh. That elderly, Pope Saint was unloving and not respectful of the dignity of others. He seems so unlike our ecumenical Popes since the beginning of BCE. He hardly sounds of the character who would think he might have someday been the source of the quite questionable doctrine that the Mahometans worship the same God as we do.

Who knows? Maybe there was a very good reason we were counseled by BCE to forget the past.

In any event,y'all know that the Mahometans teach that they worship the same God as we Catholics worship, right?

And so, wait...hold on, just a second. Nope. Nope. I must have been thinking about some other Faith because the false Faith of Mahomet has the putative Holy Book, the Koran, where Allah tells the Mahometans they do not worship the same God we do, so, maybe we Catholics might wanna rethink that whole we-worship-the-same-God thingy.

http://www.ahlesunnat.biz/main/holyquran109.htm

LeonG said...

"The hypocrisy of Islamic nations has to be continuously called out and highlighted...."

On the contrary, the factors to blame & highlight are the treacherous post-conciliar religious liberty imperative; the cultivated post-conciliar polytheistic relativism of the new european politial classes; the mindless materiocentricity of the average european coupled with the neopaganism of general postmodernist european culture.

If I were a mohamaten I would be only to glad to take full advantage of the astonishingly naive liberal modernist presumption that we can write-off all the admonitions of Our Blessed Lord and His pre-conciliar church against false religions while we all sink our glaring & irreconcilable socio-cultural differences for some distantly unattainable utopian vision of universal brotherhood and peace. The very unintelligence and illogicality of this unralisable dream must be a source of immense comfort to a mahomaten who patiently awaits the day when his religion will exploit the frreedom it is given cheaply and take it away from the "liberators of conscience" once they assume political control.

I am not Spartacus said...

Pope Saint Gregory the Great To ANAZIR, KING OF MAURETANIA, ON THE MAINTENANCE OF
FRIENDLY RELATIONS
Book III, 21, p. 287. No date.

Gregory . . . to Anazir, king of the province of Mauretania Sitifensis in Africa. [No greeting.]

Your Highness sent to us within a year a request that we would ordain the priest Servandus as bishop according to the Christian order. This we have taken pains to do, as your request seemed proper and of good promise. You also sent gifts to us, released some Christian captives out of regard for St. Peter, chief of the Apostles, and affection for us, and promised to release others. This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who lighteth every man that cometh into the world enlightened your mind in this purpose. For Almighty God, who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.

This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, "He is our peace who hath made both one."

This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities. Two of these, Alberic and Cencius, intimate friends of ours brought up with us from early youth at the Roman court, earnestly desiring to enjoy your friendship and to serve your interests here, are sending their messengers to you to let you know how highly they regard your prudence and high character and how greatly they desire and are able to be of service to you.

In recommending these messengers to Your Highness, we beg you to show them, out of regard for us and in return for the loyalty of the men aforesaid, the same respect which we desire always to show toward you and all who belong to you. For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.

+++++++++++ end of quote +++++++++++

A diplomatic letter as the sole source of brand new doctrine?

The words at 28 seconds of this clip is my response....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHFXG3r_0B8

Jordanes551 said...

Thanks for sharing the letter of Pope Gregory to Anazir, Not-Spartacus. It's horrifying that the Church would actually canonise a pope who dared to write positive things about Islam. Undeniably his canonisation was terribly imprudent at best and probably invalid. De-canonise Pope Gregory the Small SUBITO!!!

I am not Spartacus said...

Dear Jordannes 551. Please tell me that was an attempt at a joke that fell horribly flat and that you really do not think I was writing against the character of that great Saint.

Man oh man.

How could you have missed the fact that I was calling into question the putative teaching that we Catholics and Mahometans worship the same God and not calling into question Pope Saint Gregory VII"s Sainthood?

Jordanes551 said...

It wasn't you I was lampooning, Not-Spartacus.

Anonymous said...

Jordanes,

But does de-canonizing Gregory VII go far enough? Surely, this letter is proof of material heresy, and shows that the See of Peter was vacant during Gregory's so-called pontificate.

Jordanes551 said...

Quite so -- and probably has been vacant ever since.

Anonymous said...

The Bishops's stance is a kind of betrayal of Our Lord and His Words.

Of course we do not remotely worship the same God as the Muslims. You just need to look at the respective founders of the two religions.

One died on the cross (for us) at the end of His earthly life,poor, chaste,suffering, noble and Divine to the end.

The other waged 40 odd wars (killing countless people) destroying all of the Christian Churches in North Africa - imposing this "man-made horror that is Islam, had wives, concubines etc.,was rich and powerful....

Of course not all Muslims are terrorists and to be feared ...I am betting that most don't REALLY practice their false religion....or don't really know it.

Magdi Cristiano Allam is a good read on the true nature of Islam.

Barbara

Louis E. said...

I concur in dissenting from the description of a bishops' conference president as "highest-ranking bishop" of that country...the Pope is Primate of Italy,the ordinary of Venice ranks as a Patriarch,and there are Italian Cardinals senior to Bagnasco in precedence.Rank is not determined by election to head an officially recognized club,which is all a bishops' conference is.

Cardinal Arinze turns 80 next year,he is in all probability already past papability.

Oliver said...

This tendency to commit both religious and political suicide is a consequence of the outcome of WW2where the European lost pride in his traditions and embraced alien ones, e.g. raw captitalism, bureaucratic corporate models, where cultural identity was so weakened to permit an unquestioning acceptance of others as a religion in itself. Conciliarism was one such expression of this among others.

Anonymous said...

I beg to differ with some here that imply Muslims don't really practice their religion, or that we should return to some type of crusade's message.

Islam is a growing religion (maybe not as growing as they say, but still) particularly in Europe and North America. I understand that success isn't measured by numbers, but it is impressive the number of people practicing this religion, particularly young (and men). It is also impressive the convictions and high spirits they uphold.

Whether we like it or not, whether we see it or not. This is a fact.

Europe has a numerous Muslim population, and it is growing.
What position do you expect from the Church? Denial? Self-delusion? Intolerance?
The Church has all rights to convey a clear message about Salvation (although liberal clerics have decided to ignore this and play the kumbaya game). This is one thing.
But the Church cannot and should not voice opposition that other religions have their own place of worship. This is what I call denial and intolerance.
What do you want the Church say?

Muslims want a place to worship. Why are we scared? why are we oppositional? Folks, a free world is a free world (and whatever they do in Saudi Arabia is another story).

They might have as many mosques as they need and they want. What is the problem?

Maybe the real problem is that we haven't done OUR PART. In many places Christianity hasn't been killed by Muslims. It has been killed by liberal and modernist Christians first.

M.M.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Sparticus, this diplomatic letter of a good Pope has no doctrinal authority, as he does not propose to teach by it.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Someone or other wrote this:

"But does de-canonizing Gregory VII go far enough? Surely, this letter is proof of material heresy, and shows that the See of Peter was vacant during Gregory's so-called pontificate."

No, only formal heresy causes one to lose office. What we see in the letter is an example of material heresy. Dozens of prelates and even popes have lapsed into material heresy over the centuries, usually by honest mistake. It becomes deadly formal heresy only when the error is pointed out by a competent doctrinal authority and the one in error obstinately persists in the heresy. So, unless you have evidence of this in your back pocket, it means very little.

P.K.T.P.

Jordanes551 said...

Well, Mr. Perkins, clearly you don't have and hold the True Blue Catholic Faith of Authentic Sedevacantism . . . .

I am not Spartacus said...

Dear PKTP. Because I specialise in error, whenever I take a decision I almost immediately expect that I am wrong.

That being the case, I rethought my reaction to it not being sound practice to source Doctrine in a Diplomatic letter and so I did a bit more checking around and I found this in the Old Catholic Encyclopedia in the entry;

+++++++++ begin quote+++++++++

Mohammed and Mohammedism; (1) Dogma

The doctrines of Islam concerning God — His unity and Divine attributes — are essentially those of the Bible; but to the doctrines of the Trinity and of the Divine Sonship of Christ Mohammed had the strongest antipathy.

++++++++ end quote++++++++++++

And so, as is usual when it comes to BCE *(Bestest Council Ever) I am left confused and skeptical by what appears to be to me at least a Doctrine putatively anchored in one sentence from a Diplomatic letter while there is no reference to what appears to be (Cath Encyc) a moral consensus that the Mahometans do, in some sense, worship the same God as do we but if that is the case, why no reference to that theological tradition?

In any event, how can we Catholics claim we worship the same God as do the Mahometans when their "Holy Book," The Koran, specifically teaches they do not worship the same God we worship?

The LDS teaches its adepts that they not only can, they must, submit the names of Catholics , and others,to their "priests" so they can be baptised and when we hear of such a "Doctrine," we laugh; and isn;t that most likely the reaction of the Mahometans when they learn of our Doctrine that we each worship the same God?

I find the whole thing tragic because it causes we Catholics to let down our guard against an ancient, unchanged, and, literally, unchangeable, mortal enemy

I am not Spartacus said...

"Muslims want a place to worship. Why are we scared?"

Dear M.M. Prudence is not fear but ignorance can be deadly.

Unless you desire your Christian brothers and sisters be put to the sword, maybe you will want to delve into the more than 13 Centuries of Mahometan Orthopraxis which has resulted in great and unrelenting evil and instead of agitating for accommodation to our ancient enemy, you will think about the necessity of defending Holy Mother Church and Her children against these barbarians.

++++++ begin quotes+++++++

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Prime Minister Turkey; "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers..."

Thousands of Turkish immigrants gave Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan a rock star welcome in Germany on Sunday in a show of national pride that remains fervent, even after decades spent in Germany. He told them they remain part of Turkey, and urged them to integrate into German society -- but not to assimilate.

The lyric keeps echoing around the hall in Düsseldorf. "The land belongs to us all." The sentence isn't referring to Germany, but to Turkey.

Erdogan wants to give his audience a clear identity. "They call you guest workers, foreigners, or German Turks. It doesn't matter what they all call you: You are my fellow citizens, you are my people, you are my friends, you are my brothers and sisters!"

"You are part of Germany, but you are also part our great Turkey," says Erdogan...

++++++++++ end quotes ++++++++++

It is not a good idea to invite your enemy to live next to you knowing that he has been commanded by Allah to convert or kill you.

Keep the barbarians of that deadly false religion within their own borders in Satan's Sand Trap in the M.E. and defend the West and work to rebuild Christendom rather than continue to surrender it without so much as an objection, ( Heaven forfend we go to war over it), and, worse, attack the prudent as fearful because they do not share the PC/MC hallucinations which deny reality and subvert the Common Good.

Anonymous said...

I was in Germany six years ago in "Catholic Germany" i.e. the Rhineland and Bavaria, during Easter week, and I can tell you the Catholic and Lutheran Churches were empty for Holy Week, but the Turkish mosques were packed. Germans and other Europeans abort their babies while the Muslims have at least 4 to 8 children per household in Europe. In 25 years most of "Christian" Europe will be Muslim, not by the sword as in the past but by sheer numbers and the Muslims know this. Very Frightfull!!

Anonymous said...

Oh yes the religion of "peace" spreading like wildfire across Europe, let's see, honor killings, female mutilation, killing of Homosexuals, stoning, beheadings, cutting throats, yes very peacefull indeed.

Anonymous said...

I agree completely with NOT SPARTACUS.

To: M.M.

You have a point in saying that the Muslims should have a place to worship in their host country - after all we are supposed to be civilised. It's another matter,though, the BISHOPS of the The Roman Catholic Church endorsing and encouraging these proposals. It contradicts the very nature of the Church.

It's the State's duty to work on the policy of reciprocity among the corresponding nations. (I know, I know - dream on, Barbara!)

Barbara

LeonG said...

Let us hope Pope Gregory never embraced the Q'uran or consented to mosques being built in Rome. Let us hope too that he did not make similar gestures to Hindus, Buddhists, animists and Voodoo shamans.

I am not Spartacus said...

The Angelic Doctor on Mahomet and his followers

++++++++ begin quotes ++++++++++

[4] On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.

++++++++ end of quote ++++++++++++

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles1.htm

I fail to see how it is civilised to let your ancient and permanent enemies erect their houses of worship in the West when it is the case that Mahometanism is both a religion and an international totalitarian ideology wrapped-up in one insane and deadly package.

As The Old Catholic Encyclopedia reminds us;

+++++++ begin quotes +++++++

Religion and the State are not separated in Islam. Hence Mohammedan jurisprudence, civil and criminal, is mainly based on the Koran and on the "Traditions...In matters political Islam is a system of despotism at home and aggression abroad.

+++++++++ end quotes++++++++++++++

In Saint-to-be, Dom Gueranger's, “The Liturgical Year,” on May 27, we are taught this lesson in the entry on “Saint John I Pope and Martyr.”

++++++++++ Begin Quote +++++++++++++

He teaches us that we should never make a compromise with heresy, nor approve the measures taken by worldly policy for securing what it calls the rights of heresy. If the past ages aided by the religious indifference of Governments, have introduced the toleration of all religions, or even the principle that 'all religions are to be treated alike by the state,' let us, if we will, put up with this latitudinarianism, and be glad to see that the Church, in virtue of it, is guaranteed from legal persecution; but as Catholics, we can never look upon it as an absolute good. Whatever may be the circumstances in which Providence has placed us, we are bound to conform our views to the principles of our holy faith, and to the infallible teaching and practice of the Church – out of which, there is but contradiction, danger and infidelity.

++++++++++++ end quote +++++++++++

I am not Spartacus said...

As Catholics, (no matter in what country we live), we are a nation within a nation (These United States), and to stay true to The Tradition of that nation, from the beginning of The Catholic Church in the blood and water flowing from the wounds of our Blessed Saviour On The Cross on Calvary right-up to this current day, we must wage a constant daily battle and one must fight Hell to preserve in our individual intellects the pellucid Doctrines of our glorious Faith and Dom Gueranger is my personal Tutor in this battle and he is a brilliant and holy and saintly General.

There is no way in Hell that after reading this great man I could ever give intellectual assent to suggestions that those barbarians have a right to erect their houses of false worship in the country in which I live or in any country that has ever hosted The Kingdom of God/The Camp of The Saints/The Body of Christ/Holy Mother Church.

Nearly every early pacific Catholic Church that one reads about in the New Testament has been devastated and destroyed by Mahometans – just think about what happened to the early churches in what is now modern day Turkey – and our brother and sister Catholics were put to the sword by those unspeakble barbarians and I am suppoed to forget about it?

The Mahometans have not forgotten nor will they ever forget.

Sept 11 was the date chosen for the Jihad Strike against America, The Great Satan, because it was a date that will, for them, live in infamy.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/09/other-september-11th.html

The past one-half century of Our Holy Church opening up itself to the world has produced what?

I mean just consider the area of our dialogue with Mahometanism.

+++++++++++ begin quote +++++++++++

Ibn Warraq

Nearly ten years ago, I was the guest of the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies (PISAI) of Rome. PISAI is dedicated to interfaith dialogue between Christians and Muslims. But as the director at the time said to me, “There is no real dialogue, since Muslims never reciprocate the goodwill gestures made by the Christians. The result is we sit down together, and the Christians say what a wonderful religion Islam is, and the Muslims say what a wonderful religion Islam is.”

++++++++++++ end quote+++++++++

Other than a rapid increase in indifferentism and relativism and a rapid decrease in factual knowledge of our glorious Faith that has left the Sheepgate wide-open for enemy wolves to enter and attack the naive sheep, I see little of value that has come form this new orientation

Bernonius said...

Why does everybody mistranslate St. Gregory's letter?

"...qui unum Deum, licet diverso modo, credimus et confitemur..."

The concessive clause most naturally seems to modify what comes immediately before it; when we correct the mistranslation of "unum Deum" as "the same God" we have:
"...[we] who believe in and profess one God, though different in kind..."

Gregory was not the proto-Rahnerian that the V-2 traditores try to make him. He is simply being a diplomat, acknowledging that Islam, like Christianity, is monotheistic and teaches a coming Judgment. Can we fault him for not provoking a man who had the lives of his Christian subjects in his hands by telling him that the one being he worships is as far from the one true God as hell is from heaven?

Jordanes551 said...

The same mistranslation is found in Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate where they refer to the Muslim teaching on monotheism.

G. said...

Thank you, Bernonius, for putting this specious canard to rest. I suspect those who mistranslate the passage do so deliberately.

Brian said...

The same mistranslation is found in Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate where they refer to the Muslim teaching on monotheism.

Jordanes,
I cannot tell what you mean.

Are you suggesting that Bernonius is mistaken about translating the passage?

Or are you saying that Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate, in fact, utilized a mistranslation?

LeonG said...

Bernonius

"..though different in kind...."

As I have stated many times before, here and elsewhere, mahomatens do not believe in the Almighty God of The Roman Catholic church since He is shorn of The Son & Holy Ghost which St John states clearly is not acceptable to us as God. To equate this statement from Pope Gregory as a type of justification for the scandalous ecumenical excesses of post-conciliar popes is absolutely untenable. Hence my comment earlier.

Mar said...

Thank you, Not Spartacus, for your valuable and informative post

Jordanes551 said...

Are you suggesting that Bernonius is mistaken about translating the passage?

No. If that were the case, I would have said "the same translation," not "the same MIStranslation."

Or are you saying that Lumen Gentium and Nostrae Aetate, in fact, utilized a mistranslation?

No. LG and NA's Latin says and means the same as St. Gregory's Latin -- "one God," or "the one God," NOT "the same God." Translating it as "the same God" is more an interpretation than a translation -- interpreting the Latin for "one" as meaning "one and the same." It's a possible rendering, but it's not a literal rendering and not as accurate or faithful.

When one consults the English translations of LG and NA, however, one finds the same mistranslation "the same God" as in the English translation of St. Gregory's letter that Not-Spartacus quoted.

The Council Fathers of Vatican II did not say that Muslims and Catholics worship "the same God" -- they did not address that question at all. Rather, they noted some of the things Islam has right, chief among them the Muslim knowledge of the fact that God is one. On this specific point at issue, there was no other intention in LG and NA than to approve of the fact that the Muslims are right about some rather important things. Vatican II, however, did not teach that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God. Now, I would say that it is possible to correctly say that, from one point of view, Catholics and Muslims worship the same God (since Muslims profess and intend to offer worship to the God of Abraham), but from another important way of looking at it, it is correct to say that Muslims do not worship the same God that we do (since their beliefs about the one God are gravely defective). But that debate is extraneous from what the Church actually said at Vatican II on that question: which is precisely nothing.

Anonymous said...

Not Spartacus,

Thank you for the great quotes from St.Thomas and Dom Gueranger. You have now convinced me to eat my words about immigrant Muslims having the right to worship places. Call me infected by the "we must be tolerant at all costs" mentality....and oh I forgot "we must be nice..."

But the invasion is so advanced now in Europe, what can we do? Christian Charity is also an essential virtue to maintain. I mean I'm sure we would all help one in real need no matter the religious profession.. We are in quite a predicament, to say the least...

What St. Thomas writes confirms what I have thought for a long time. Islam - a theological fairy -tale -horror -story - and not a very intelligent one at that!

If my memory serves me well (I read it some years ago)it is written in the Koran that Muslims shouldn't lie to each other, but that it was OK for them to lie to the infidel-dogs - the Christians and the Jews, when convenient. And as for their attitude and behaviour regarding women - it is simply wicked. This is the horrific mentality that we are up against.

We should be trying to win them over for Our Lord - but when the Bishops behave thus..as in this report...

Thank you Bernonius for the translation correction.

Prayers

Barbara

Jordanes551 said...

As for the intent behind Vatican II's statements on the relations between the Church and Muslims, it is clear that Pope St. Gregory's letter to Anazir is in perfect continuity with the attitude expressed by the Church at the council -- in light of the beliefs we profess, including some crucial ones that we share, Catholics and Muslims should strive to live in peace with each other. As St. Gregory wrote, "For Almighty God, who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the one God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.'"

The general tone of the letter is one of respect, esteem, kindness, and charity, and he says things to and about Anazir that seem most unlikely to drop from the lips of a traditionalist when speaking of Muslims. But the Church at Vatican II held up St. Gregory's example in this matter as something she encourages her children to follow.