Rorate Caeli

No breakdown in doctrinal talks; canonical solution must come from "the hierarchy"

A very interesting interview (in Italian) with the Superior of the Italian district of the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Pius X (FSSPX), Fr. Davide Pagliarani, was posted yesterday. It includes no groundbreaking news, but he makes clear that the doctrinal talks did not "fail", and that an eventual canonical solution would have to come from "the hierarchy":

"I can only repeat that which has been clearly and always explained by my superiors: the canonical situation in which the Fraternity is currently placed is a consequence of its resistance to the errors that infest the Church; consequently, the possibility for the Fraternity to reach a regular canonical situation does not depend on us, but on the acceptance by the hierarchy of the contribution that Tradition can give for the restoration of the Church.


"If a canonical regularization is not reached, it simply means that the hierarchy is not yet convinced enough of the necessity and the urgency of this contribution. In this case, it would be necessary to wait for still some years, expecting an increase of this awareness, that could be related and parallel to the acceleration of the process of self-destruction of the Church."

The interview is quite extensive, but I unfortunately do not have the time for a proper translation at the moment. If you wish to have a rough but not superficial understanding of it, the Google Translate version is not good, but not so bad, either - and if our Italian-speaking readers wish to translate parts of it in the comments, we would be most grateful.

24 comments:

Johnny Domer said...

While I appreciate the updates and understand the need for prayer, part of me feels the same way towards the possibility of SSPX reconciliation as I did towards the NFL lockout. In reality, both sides have kept pretty well mum and we don't learn too terribly much from whatever little snippets of info Bishop Fellay or Msgr. Pozzo or Fr. So-and-so let slip. As a result, I think I'm just going to pray, and I'm not going to put too much credence or pay too much attention to whatever little news stories come out before an official yea or nay is given to a deal.

At this point, both parties know the stakes, both should earnestly want reconciliation, and it can happen if both sides get over hardened positions on non-essentials, conspiracy theories, past biases, and stupid prejudices. If not, it won't happen. I refuse to believe that Benedict XVI and Bernard Fellay have such differing conceptions of the world and the faith that the two cannot work out some kind of agreement to live in harmony within the Church. When you boil it down, the only truly doctrinal things they seem to disagree on are a few thorny, difficult questions regarding religious liberty, the secular state, and how the Church should approach ecumenism (I'm still not sure if the SSPX actually disagrees with official postconciliar Church teaching on ecumenism, or if they mostly just disagree with certain individual ecumenical events at which JP2 and many bishops assisted; 99% of their arguments are against religious indifferentism, which the Church officially rejects anyway. I wonder to what extent it would even be an issue if the Assisi gatherings and the Koran-kissing hadn't happened).

If the Church could find room for Fr. Feeney and his followers, in spite of their doctrinal disagreement on a MUCH MORE SERIOUS MATTER that more directly pertained to dogmas of the Church, I'm going to guess they can find room for the SSPX (I know I know, don't start lecturing me that I'm an idiot for not realizing that those other doctrines also pertain to dogma--I know they do, but let's be real, what "Baptism by desire" means is a far more immediately important and dogmatic question than "whether and when a confessional state is necessary," which 99 percent of practicing Catholics can do nothing to influence one way or another anyway.).

If the FSSP can exist in as purely traditional and Catholic a form as they have, then there's no way the SSPX shouldn't be able to continue as they are, especially if they have some kind of prelature or ordinariate to insulate themselves from liberal bishops. The "state of emergency" is over. Time to REALLY help the restoration--from WITHIN the Church. You guys wrote for years, ranted and raved for your positions, and nobody gave a crap. Msgr. Gherardini writes one book and everyone is rapt with attention--he's just one dude, but he's a dude WITHIN THE CHURCH. Imagine what happens when the entire SSPX is reconciled, you get a bunch of your priests to receive doctorates in theology from prestigious Roman universities, and THEY start defending those theses. You could wind up convincing a Pope to write Bp. Athanasius Schneider's proposed Syllabus!

Sixupman said...

Forget SSPX, the Hierarchies [Bishops' Conferences] are against and even hate Tradition - Full Stop!

Only The Supreme Pontiff can sort this out, unilaterally! Problem, the said Hierarchies do not acquiesce to The Supreme Pontiff -
they only see him as a nominal pastor inter pares and that he only has the power to act Collegially with them.

Vatican II?

Hope Springs Eternal said...

I guess what he is saying is that it has to get worse before it gets better!

Anonymous said...

With all due respect to the principals involved, IMO only Our Lord and Savior can reconcile the differing parties. And, Our Blessed Mother can influence Him directly to do just that. There's no question that Pope Benedict XVI could regularize the FSSPX in a heartbeat if he wished. Let us pray that he will do so and soon for the situation in the Church gets ever more desperate with every passing day. No, I am not one that believes the state of emergency is over - not by a long shot.

PEH

Cruise the Groove. said...

So Bishop Fellay is open to the Popes canonical solution.

This must happen soon as many many go to invalid confessions.

Cruise the Groove. said...

I hope Pope Benedict XVI offers the FSSPX a canonical regularization soon.

M. A. said...

"...the acceleration of the process of self-destruction of the Church."

I see it so clearly in my old parish. The congregation is dwindling, money-count has dropped drastically; they can't get volunteers for anything; the current paid "organist" is a young teen who doesn't know how to play the organ, so she plays it like a piano. I could go on and on.

Yet, the pastor insists on more of the tried and failed, like intimidating those who would kneel, for example. It is utterly tragic. The only way back will have to be when such priests see the complete ruins before their eyes.

I really do find it amusing that anyone in there right mind would consider that the state of emergency has past.

Anonymous said...

Cruise the Groove. said...
So Bishop Fellay is open to the Popes canonical solution.

This must happen soon as many many go to invalid confessions.

Carefull, CTG: Do not disturbe the consciences of countless Catholic faithful; it can be a grave sin against fraternal charity to arouse anxiety in those who do avail themselves. I take it
that you are not in the clerical state and therefore are not entitle to make such a judgement.

Joe B said...

Cruise, Rome disagrees with you. They are letting the SSPX confessions stand that are required to be submitted for higher authority approval.

By the way, I went to the first High Mass in the Charlotte diocese in something like 40 years last night. It was at Saint Anne's church on her feast day. The bishop participated and the large church was packed with several hundreds of faithful. We all appreciated it very much, and even several local SSPXers attended. You can't find a Sunday TLM anywhere in the diocese except for SSPX, but maybe we're moving in that direction. Maybe.

But the mainly Novus Ordo crowd was deplorably dressed for Holy Communion. Night gown dresses, low cuts, men in shorts, etc. But the wonderful priest courageously addressed the role of true femininity in his homily - family and love over Mom as a commercial interest.

I'm afraid such talk largely fell on deaf ears, but where we have SSPX, you aren't going to win us over with just a TLM mass anymore, because we SSPXers are now used to the full dose of Catholicism for our children and for ourselves, from theology down to modesty at mass and everything in between. We're not going to a mass that women go to dressed in nightgowns because our boys even know what a disgrace that is and our girls certainly don't need that influence tolerated, and we're not going to listen to homilies that pay lip service to the anti-Catholic culture, including that of our own hierarchy.

If that's where all this is heading - a Sunday TLM and no further, thanks, but we'll just stay with what we've got, which tends to save our children's souls. Ours are worth it, even if yours apparently aren't.

Cruise the Groove. said...

Anonymous,
Sorry about that.

I guess Ignorance is bliss in some situations,

Jack said...

\\Forget SSPX, the Hierarchies [Bishops' Conferences] are against and even hate Tradition - Full Stop!\\

Sixupman, forgive me for asking you a question.

I've noticed that "tradition" is a word that gets used a lot on this blog, but it occurred to me that perhaps not all mean the same thing by it.

What do YOU mean by this term?

Maybe this is what the misunderstandings are all about.

Anonymous said...

What is interesting in this interview and in Bishop Fellay's more recent remarks is not what is being said but in what is not being said. No longer are Society leaders saying that they will reject or refuse a canonical solution should Rome propose an acceptable one. They are putting the ball in Rome's court because, should Rome want canonical regularisation, she must now supply the needed conditions. For exammple, should Rome offer a solution in exchange for some admission from the Society, that may or may not be rejected by the Society.

Rome could 'find' from the discussions that the Society is Catholic and could 'find' that the suppression of 1975 and suspensions of 1976 were 'unfortunate'. That could open the door.

Of course, Rome will want at least something in exchange. So far, the declarations of excommunication have been lifted and S.P. has been extended (and extended further by U.E.), while the S.S.P.X has conceded nothing. This entire issue of 'legitimacy' seems to signal the latest obstacle.

P.K.T.P.

Cruise the Groove. said...

"Cruise, Rome disagrees with you. They are letting the SSPX confessions stand that are required to be submitted for higher authority "

Joe B

Though I would sincerely like to believe that the Holy See acknowledges that all SSPX absolutions are valid, we have no official document or even unofficial document to go on regarding this.
All we have is Bishop Fellays statement at last years 40th anniversary conference in Kansas City, that certain reserved sins were referred to the Vatican and they said these sins were absolved.
Not all SSPX confessions are valid.

Jeremiah Methuselah said...

Joe B, you are so right. Well said !

" (we are used to) the full dose of Catholicism for our children and for ourselves, from theology down to modesty at mass and everything in between"

That's it entirely.

Not the beautiful plainsong or the other "extras" but the pure and undiluted Catholic Faith in its total magnificence.

Ld Schmidt said...

SSPX has not changed since it's glorious conception. It picked up where the Vat II left off. It did'nt start a new church, it did'nt rewrite canon laws, it did'nt rewrite or change the Word of God. How can it be in error? Thank you Joe B. and Jeremiah Methuselah for you insightful clarity.

LeonG said...

Overall, this puts the responsibility squarely where it resides - with the hierarchy. They cannot duck and weave anymore. It is time they came clean on all related issues with The SSPX and with Sacred Tradition.

Anonymous said...

"....if our Italian-speaking readers wish to translate parts of it in the comments, we would be most grateful."

Caro New Catholic,

Mi dispiace, oggi non posso. Sarà per un'altra volta.

Cordiali saluti!

Joe B said...

Cruise, I think they will all be declared to have been valid before the dust settles, as justice demands it. They are fighting for our faith as it was before the turmoil set in and all censures are based on their stand against radical change in the faith. They will win.

And since they will win because God is just, the indicators just confirm that. Then there is the history of the church bending over backwards to avoid declaring 30 years of confessions invalid. That's the last thing they should do if they care about souls, considering SSPX's sin is to merely keep on doing what the church has always done.

I have no doubts. Their confessions will be formally declared valid, and thus are so even now.

Anonymous said...

"the possibility for the Fraternity to reach a regular canonical situation does not depend on us, but on the acceptance by the hierarchy of the contribution that Tradition can give for the restoration of the Church."

To these words revealing his soul one would respond to the glorious instruments of the Holy Trinity who must tremble before their Divine Judge and ours, remember His "battle cry" of the Beatitudes:
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall possess the earth." "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God." "Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven."

If we were to work with the Hand of the Divine Artist to form the saint to approach the Holy Father, would he not be found lead by the "Finger of God's Right Hand" to kneel before the relics of St. Pius X in the Vatican for hours in reverential & petitioning ecstasy, only to move then to the relics of St. Peter to do the same prior to providing a message to be sent to the Holy Father that he would remain in humble prayer there daily until His Holiness would condescend to open his heart, soul and schedule to his most lowly servant and son.

The words of Pope St. Gregory today in Matins for the common for several martyrs outside of Paschaltide reveal most clearly where we are in the history of the world and what is to be expected in the future.

"Veni Sancte Spiritus" through Our Blessed Mother's intercession.

Anonymous said...

Joe B is wrong about the Mass at St. Ann Charlotte, and I must protest his using this fine blog to spread disinformation.

"You can't find a Sunday TLM anywhere in the diocese except for SSPX"
Point of fact utterly wrong. The EF Mass is offered every Sunday in Mount Airy, NC.

"But the mainly Novus Ordo crowd was deplorably dressed for Holy Communion. "
Also factually wrong. I was there. The people whom I know were a mix of EF and OF. A little charity please. The weather outside was pushing 99. I saw some kids in shorts, but no adults, and no one "deplorable". Just how does Joe B know that most of the "crowd" were "Novus Ordo" (to use the correct term, "Ordinary Form")? Can he read hearts?

I'm afraid such talk largely fell on deaf ears. And just how does Joe B know that? Given his subsequent remarks, the ears that are deaf and the eyes that are blind are Joe's. Everybody else at this Mass heard and saw that "this" is NOT "where things are heading" and that "the times, they are a'changin'".

Anonymous said...

Totally agree 100% with anonymous
28 July, 2011 16:28.

Joe B said...

Good point about the TLM in Mount Airy. I forgot to look for masses stuck safely out there a hundred miles away from the diocese. The Charlotte remains a Sunday TLM virtual wasteland except for the stunning SSPX mass. But please don't come to it, because we are already packed to standing room on Sundays - and besides, we don't have faculties, you know. And don't listen to these comments about how excellent our choir is because they will knock your flippin socks off and then we will get into that modesty issue again. Anyway, as I said, maybe we're turning the TLM corner at the diocese. Maybe. I truly hope so.

I could tell most of the people around me were Novus Ordo types because of their unfamiliarity with the mass. And one other small thing - that head covering thing so popular among most female TLMers. You see a lot of it at the TLMs I've been to around the country, but not so much at this one. Not much at all. But that's certainly OK for starters. Like I said, we just have a long way to go even after we get our TLMs.

Guess I'm just an extremist at modesty at High Masses with Bishops in attendance. I still recommend the two finger at the neck rule and the dress well below the knees even when sitting rule and the pants-on-men-only rule. These practices are common where I go to mass, although those who are in violation aren't ostracized or anything, they just seem to change with time. You see, the message seems to get through there, although I can't say how deeply because I have difficulty reading hearts among such groups, but that's probably because their modest dresses cover them so well. And sooner or later, that's where we have to go, because if the Catholic church isn't even pushing for true modesty at mass, why, then society will think it OK to dress their daughters for sex, which it already does. Do you get my point about how far we have to go now? If not, thou without a name, pray tell what are your modesty standards for Holy Communion in the presence of your bishop?

Guadalupe Guard said...

Joe B said...

If not, thou without a name, pray tell what are your modesty standards for Holy Communion in the presence of your bishop?

I agree completely Joe, save you should say "in the presence of your Lord and God," bishop or no bishop.

just a simple catholic.. said...

PAX VOBISCUM
I hope the Holy Father in Rome will find a solutuin for the sspx.
Tey are the churchs "secret weapon" and "Popes new army" in my point of view and can play a great part of real restauration of the holy mother church.
Real restauration in that sense that is based on:
- Jesus Christ who is the head of the church which is his mystical body
- St Peter and his succesors, the Roman popes who are Lords vicars and visible Heads of the church
- Holy Writt
- Holy Tradition
- Holy Mass
- all Sacraments especially Eucharist
- all Dogmas
and finally all Anathemas to know who is Catholic and who is NOT.

+PAX+