Rorate Caeli

"Dear Hindu friends," we will be "spiritually united with" those in Assisi III

From the Daily Bulletin of the Holy See Press Office:

Christians and Hindus: together in promoting religious freedom

Dear Hindu Friends,

1. The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue is pleased to send you its cordial greetings as you celebrate Deepavali on 26 October of this year. May God, the source of all light, illumine your hearts, homes and communities for a life of peace and prosperity,

2. Maintaining our tradition of sharing a reflection on this occasion, we propose this year the theme of Religious Freedom. This subject is currently taking centre stage in many places, calling our attention to those members of our human family exposed to bias, prejudice, hate propaganda, discrimination and persecution on the basis of religious affiliation. Religious freedom is the answer to religiously motivated conflicts in many parts of the world. Amid the violence triggered by these conflicts, many desperately yearn for peaceful coexistence and integral human development.

3. Religious freedom is numbered among the fundamental human rights rooted in the dignity of the human person. When it is jeopardized or denied, all other human rights are endangered. Religious freedom necessarily includes immunity from coercion by any individual, group, community or institution. Though the exercise of this right entails the freedom of every person to profess, practise and propagate his or her religion or belief, in public or in private, alone or in a community, it also involves a serious obligation on the part of civil authorities, individuals and groups to respect the freedom of others. Moreover, it includes the freedom to change one's own religion.

4. When respected and promoted, religious freedom allows believers to be more enthusiastic about cooperating with their fellow citizens in the building of a just and humane social order. But wherever and whenever it is denied, suppressed or violated, "the growth of the authentic and lasting peace of the whole human family" is stifled and frustrated (cf. Pope Benedict XVI, Message for the World Day of Peace, 2011). There are many fields in which a specific contribution can be made to the common good, such as the defence of life and the dignity of the family, the sound education of children, honesty in daily conduct, and the preservation of natural resources, to name a few. Let us strive, then, to join hands in promoting religious freedom as our shared responsibility, by asking the leaders of nations never to disregard the religious dimension of the human person.

5. The very day after you celebrate Deepavali this year, many religious leaders from across the globe will join Pope Benedict XVI in a Pilgrimage to Assisi to renew the pledge made twenty-five years ago, under the leadership of Blessed John Paul II, to make religions channels of peace and harmony. We will be spiritually united with them, confident that believers will always be a blessing for the whole world.

We cordially wish you a joyful celebration of Deepavali.

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran
President

Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata
Secretary

76 comments:

Br. Anthony, T.O.S.F. said...

This makes me sick to my stomach!

LeonG said...

"Moreover, it includes the freedom to change one's own religion."

Indeed, which is the paradigm presented to us by John Paul II (RIP) that if the conscience prompts then we are duty-bound to follow. How easy therefore to explain the vertiginous drop in Sunday attendance and in conversions to the new faith.
I agree with Br. Anthony's sentiments of nausea. The Devil could not express such subversive ideas as well as the obsequious liberal modernists who have contrived this utterly disgraceful statement. The faith is almost lost in the new church as it turns to false religions to validate its own distorted perspectives on the best methodology for obtaining world peace. They have forgotten the type that the world cannot give nor does it understand. Also, judging by the current Assisi obsession nor do most of the rabid ecumenists in the modernist church of today.

poeta said...

Typical sequela of Dignitatis Humanae.

Anonymous said...

This looks like United Nations globalist propaganda. Not even a 33 grade freemason could have written such a piece of demonic garbage. Truly discouraging.
Rodion

Anonymous said...

Come, come NC.

Two jokes in one week? Surely this is just another "very real true and authentic letter"?

Anonymous said...

This is an abomination and, mark my words, will serve to end any dialogue the SSPX has with the Holy See. God will not be mocked. It is precisely this sort of thing that serves to illustrate the chasm that exists between traditional Catholicism and the new religion. We want the Faith of our Fathers, not a watered down facsimile which shies away from professing the Truth. May God have mercy on those responsible for this outrage!

PEH

Ferraiuolo said...

Ego locuto est, causa finita est!

Anonymous said...

Where is the Pope? Where is the Rock? I am lost.

Anonymous said...

I should be left alone to follow my conscience and become a peaceful Hindu, Buddhist, etc., but attending an SSPX chapel is a no-no? I don't get it.

M. A. said...

This is a fruit of VII. Are we supposed to give submission of will and intellect to this Masonic doctrine, the chimera of "peaceful coexistence and integral human development"?

It is not possible. I cannot. I will not.

Tom Esteban said...

Scandalous. I don't understand all this. What are we to do? How are we supposed to take this? How discouraging.

Anonymous said...

I just puked a little in my mouth.

Jon said...

PEH said: "This is an abomination and, mark my words, will serve to end any dialogue the SSPX has with the Holy See."

Your first four words are true enough. But you must be in the barn to clean the stable.

I pray instead this "abomination" results in the SSPX grabbing their pitchforks and breaking down the door.

Anonymous said...

From Wikipedia:

The festival starts with Dhanteras on which most Indian business communities begin their financial year. The second day of the festival, Naraka Chaturdasi, marks the vanquishing of the demon Naraka by Lord Krishna and his wife Satyabhama. Amavasya, the third day of Deepawali, marks the worship of Lakshmi, the goddess of wealth in her most benevolent mood, fulfilling the wishes of her devotees. Amavasya also tells the story of Lord Vishnu, who in his dwarf incarnation vanquished the Bali, and banished him to Patala. It is on the fourth day of Deepawali, Kartika Shudda Padyami, that Bali went to patala and took the reins of his new kingdom in there. The fifth day is referred to as Yama Dvitiya (also called Bhai Dooj), and on this day sisters invite their brothers to their homes.

While the story behind Deepavali and the manner of celebration varies from region to region (festive fireworks, worship, lights, sharing of sweets), the essence is the same – to rejoice in the Inner Light (Atman) or the underlying Reality of all things (Brahman).

Nathaniel said...

This is why there remains a state of necessity. The presuppositions of the post-conciliar Magisterium ARE contradictory to what has gone before.

When the Holy Father states that there's no state of necessity because he's fixing the problems, he does not see that the Church speaks now in a way that is completely foreign to her heritage. It's difficult to see how he can fix the problems when his attitude toward the world's religions ARE intrinsic to the problem.

Only prayer and penance will bail us out of the catastrophe and chaos of the present moment.

jasoncpetty said...

I don't agree with any of the commenters thus far. I agree that this is stupid and meaningless, but there is nothing subversive. (If your tummy hurts, try reading communiques from useless Vatican entities with your knees further up under the desk so that they don't jerk upwards into your stomach. It helps.) Here's what it says to my charitable eyes.

1. Hey, dudes, God bless!

2. But seriously, stop killing us. Not everyone wants to be Hindu. Some want to be Catholic. Let them be.

3. We're setting up religious freedom as a double-standard that applies to you but not to Holy Mother Church: don't kill our Hindu converts to Catholicism and burn down their churches and villages, but we will definitely be sending more missionaries.

4. These days, anyone at all in touch with the transcendent, who acknowledges something beyond one's self--especially in your part of the world, where the effects of civilization are marginal--is our ally to some extent. That includes you. Your worship of devils, even the one with the crazy arms, is slightly preferable to the materialism we face in the West, where only the remnants of polite civilization are keeping us from being destroyed. Let's work together.

5. Assisi III reminds us that "believers will always be a blessing for the whole world" as compared to that alternative.

Anonymous said...

The Hindus kill more Christians and wreck more churches than the Moslems, only it’s under-reported. Not one word in the Vatican document asks for an end to the persecution.

Unlike Islam, Hinduism involves idolatry - multiple gods and statue worship. What could we have in common or in solidarity when violation of the First Commandment is part of their faith?

I do support freedom of religion however. The Catholic record of killing non-violent heretics is not of God. I am glad it's behind us.

Traditional Catholics assert the primacy of their conscience every time they disobey the pope or their local bishop in the name of a higher good. Lefebvre certainly followed his conscience as do his bishops and priests.

Vincent Segni

Knight of Malta said...

“Thus, in Hinduism men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible fruitfulness of myths and a searching philosophical inquiry. They seek release from the anguish of our condition through ascetical practices or deep meditation or a loving, trusting flight toward God.”

-Vatican II, Declaration of the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions

This is why, as Msgr. Gherardini has pointed out, the missionary spirit in the Church is dead. If one believes everyone is saved, why bring the Gospel to them?

Cruise the Groove. said...

This is Confusion.

It seems like there is a state of necessity even though the Holy Father says there is not.

I am confused.

CredoUtIntelligam said...

jasoncpetty said:

I don't agree with any of the commenters thus far. I agree that this is stupid and meaningless, but there is nothing subversive . . . Here's what it says to my charitable eyes.

. . .

4. These days, anyone at all in touch with the transcendent, who acknowledges something beyond one's self--especially in your part of the world, where the effects of civilization are marginal--is our ally to some extent. That includes you. Your worship of devils, even the one with the crazy arms, is slightly preferable to the materialism we face in the West, where only the remnants of polite civilization are keeping us from being destroyed.Let's work together.

So this is a "charitable" reading that removes anything potentially "subversive" from the original? Thank goodness the hermeneutics of continuity came to the rescue--I was starting to get worried!

Anonymous said...

Mr. Segni,

There is a crucial distinction between non-Christians and non-Catholic Christians.

Non-Christians do indeed enjoy a basic freedom of religion in classical Catholcism in that they will not be coerced by the Church to become Catholic.

Non-Catholic Chrstians, on the other had, by definition, are under the authority of the Holy See by virtue of their baptism, and can be coerced. To say, in effect, that Pope Leo X's Exsurge Domine is not of God is a breathtaking claim.

Kudos to you for distancing yourself from the Second Vaticanist claptrap we've been mired in for nearly 50 years. But you should closely, meticulously study what the Church has stood for in this area from 325-1958. If Catholicism is true, it cannot have been gravely wrong about such a fundamental issue for over 1,600 years.

Confused said...

Religious freedom is numbered among the fundamental human rights rooted in the dignity of the human person...Though the exercise of this right entails the freedom of every person to profess, practise and propagate his or her religion or belief, in public or in private, alone or in a community..."

Is this saying that spreading heresy is a fundamental human right? Maybe I am misunderstanding something, but it sure seems to be saying this. I'm rather new to traditionalist viewpoints, so this is all quite confusing to me. How could our Cardinals and Bishops be saying such things? Jesus said that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against His Church. I believe that. What is happening, though? Why are things such a mess? Will they get better over time? It's pretty distressing to see how radically the Church has changed in recent years.

Anonymous said...

I read a lot on history, religion and apologetics and so on, and eventually came to the conclusion 1) there is a God, and 2) if there is a God then it can only be Christ and if God is Christ then the Catholic Church can only be His Church.

That was about 1 year ago I came to that conclusion. To date, I have not set foot in a Catholic Church or went to a "conversion course". What reason? Well, after I came to the above mentioned conclusion, I actually started to look at the Church today. And I am just confused, and I roll back and forward, and I completely fail to see the point in even trying.

The only thing that keeps me from abandoning it all together is that I, now regrettably, intellectually came to the conclusion, through reason, that God does exist. Hence, I can't just put everything behind me.

Things like this keep me in a sinful life and will continue to keep me outside of the Church. I simply can't have any faith in this.

Anonymous said...

This must be the "Living Magisterium" all the "conservative" Katholics insist I must listen to, in order to be in "full communion" with the "mind of the church"! No Thanks!!! A Loyal Reader

Anonymous said...

The likes of Cardinal Tauran are determined that the Rome/SSPX reconciliation must be blocked at all costs. And they obviously see Assisi III as a crucial oportunity to achieve this. Let's not fall into their trap. The only camp to win if the SSPX negations end in failure will be the New Church. The devil doesn't want the SSPX to have a juridical position in the Church, and Tauran is doing the devil's work here. Shame on him.

Jonvilas said...

Common, guys. This is just normal diplomatic stuff. Nothing more. Actually, this is about, what jasoncpetty told: stop killing us, catholics. You know, some really wants to be catholic, etc. Besides, its cardinal Tauran's job to remind all easterners, that the catholics, living among them, have the right to believe in God – in Patrem, Filium et Spiritum Sanctum. Diplomatics never tell the matter straight. They always play certain games. This is one of these.

Joseph said...

When are people going to wake up!
So long as the Vatican II hierarchy are still around nothing is going to change.(These people need to read their Baltimore I catechism.)

I am very grateful for the SSPX for standing firm on the teachings of the Church. (We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church!)

I am not Spartacus said...

Woah, there. What is all the fuss about?

Remember what you are constantly being told - that there has been no rupture in Tradition, there is aught but continuity (slogan-slather, rinse, repeat).

What's that you say?

You say that 126 years ago - nearly to the day- Pope Leo XIII promulgated Immortale Dei which teaches;

The Church, indeed, deems it unlawful to place the various forms of divine worship on the same footing as the true religion,...

Well, so what?

That teaching is the Winter of Tradition and we are living in the Spring of Vatican Two.

Yay!!!

Anonymous said...

Cruise the Groove. said...

This is Confusion.

It seems like there is a state of necessity even though the Holy Father says there is not.

I am confused.


I believe you are a good Catholic seeking to make sense out of what is happening, Cruise, and I applaud you for recognizing the possibility that there is a state of necessity after all.

The doctrine of ecclesia supplet means that the Church supplies faculties when it is necessary. That means that traditional priests professing all that Holy Mother Church has always held, taught and professed to be true, be they independent or SSPX, confer the sacraments validly and licitly. They truly want to be in communion with the Holy Father if only he would recognize their plight - i.e. that they cannot accept the "new religion" and all that it has perpetrated or promulgated in the last 50 or so years.

Remember, the salvation of souls is the supreme law of the Church and nothing, absolutely nothing, takes precedence over it. So, be of good cheer and if the SSPX chapel is your only option in these perilous times, I recommend you take advantage of it. Though I do not take that option myself becasue I have other options, it is not because I think it is inappropriate, especially considering the devastated vineyard that we live in.

PEH

Anonymous said...

I think we all need to pray more and complain less.

Enoch said...

I don't see a problem with this latest communication from the Holy See press offoce regardong Assisi lll.

I fail to see what's scandalous about wanting religious persecution stopped, meaning persecution against Catholics and non-Catholics, too. Certainly all here want to see the end of persecution against Catholics, which is a very real problem in some areas of the world (and which no doubt pains the Holy Father very much). But who here believes that persecution against non-Catholics is alright? Aren't non-Catholics human beings, too? Or do some here see them as somehow being less-than-human?

The situation at Assisi is not about promoting religious indifferentism or syncretism. The Church teaches that we are to be tolerant of others who practice a different religion. We are not savages.

Anonymous said...

We are ripe for the appearance of the Anti Christ. The only force on earth that could have fought him off has retreated and will most likely welcome him with open arms.

The gates of hell will not prevail in the end but Satan has made many inroads and will not go down without a major battle.

Immaculate Heart of Mary pray for us and obtain the graces that we need to do battle with the enemies of Holy Mother Church. Banish the confusion in the minds of those who are true to you.

As Fr John Hardon used to say: "Ordinary Catholics will not survive this age".

Teddy said...

http://tlmholyinnocentsnyc.blogspot.com/

jasoncpetty said...

CredoutIntelligam,

Would you rather have a discussion about anything important with (A) someone convinced of the existence of a false "god" or "gods" (e.g., a Hindu) or (B) someone convinced that there is no God (e.g., most Westerners)?

With the former, man is unlikely to be the means and the end toward resolving the important discussion topic, as one can always appeal to what God says; with the latter, what man says is true and final and, therefore, might makes right. (B) is scary; (A) is, too, but at least there's a chance.

(A) is your ally moreso than (B). There is a chasm between (A) and (B)--at least Catholics can relate to (A). And, beyond the hypothetical important discussion topic, who would you rather try to convert? I'll take an (A) any day; is your God the Christ or the elephant-head thingy? Easy.

That's all the popes have ever said to the false religions: at least you believe in something. To that extent, you're an ally.

Are there relativists that pollute this message and hang their syncretistic and relativistic baggage onto this simple message for the last half century? You bet. Are they wrong? You bet. Don't read too much into this.

And I realize we've all got SSPX on the brain (and hopefully in our prayers!) lately, definitely don't try to turn some random Vatican entity's drivel into an assassin's bullet aimed at the reconciliation process.

Long-Skirts said...

Cardinal Jean-Louis TauranPresident
Archbishop Pier Luigi CelataSecretary say:

"religious freedom allows believers to be more enthusiastic about cooperating with their fellow citizens in the building of a just and humane social order. But wherever and whenever it is denied, suppressed or violated, "the growth of the authentic and lasting peace of the whole human family"

"TO
MEN
OF
GOOD
WILL”

There can be no peace
If not of good will.
There can be no race
For those who stand still.

Only she -
Full of grace
Was the miracle
Set in place.

To magnify
Her soul prepared
By God her spirit -
Never ensnared.

“Blessed art thou…”
Gabriel hailed,
And at that moment
The enemy railed

For he remembered
In the garden free
Between him and a woman
Enmity.

But who the woman?
God did not tell,
Then Gabriel’s “Ave”
Shook the depths of Hell.

And Satan screamed,
Turned on a wing
To offer some peace
And will good to a King.

“Peace.” Herod said,
“And yes good will…
I’ve a right to my reign,
If some Innocents I kill!”

SkinnyBaldGuy said...

Anonymous 13:59 stated: I do support freedom of religion however. The Catholic record of killing non-violent heretics is not of God. I am glad it's behind us.

The death penalty for Heretics, even non-violent ones, is of God, has been ordered by God in the past, and is thus well within the legitimate options that the Church has used and has a right to use now and for all times. You can bone up on St. Thomas for the justification and read... well, the Bible, for one if you need more clarification.

SkinnyBaldGuy said...

I wonder what the book of 3 Kings (Douay)would look like, where Elijah confronts the false prophets of Baal, if we re-worded it to include the 'fundamental human right' of religious freedom? Or those poor idol worshippers on Mt. Sinai slaughtered by Moses?

Woody said...

Enough of this Mr. Nice Guy stuff. The Church and all of us needs to push back, and hard, against all this diversity and tolerance stuff. See this article for waht "tolernace" as a point of view, if not religion ina and of itself, has produced:

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_end_of_tolerance

Note that it is a supposedly conservative MP who is advocating forcing same sex "marriages" on the churches.

Basta!

jeveris said...

It needs schizophrenia to see here in this curial pamphlet any "continuity" with the pre concilar roman teaching. In this particular case this pagan hindus will amuse about the roman curials. No one can really take them seriously in their masonic one world craze

Jack said...

\\"Moreover, it includes the freedom to change one's own religion."\\

Unfortunately, this is not a right extended to mahometans in mahometan countries.

And we have to remember--like it or not--that in the USA, freedom to be a Catholic means freedom for others to be Hindu if they desire.

**Not even a 33 grade freemason could have written such a piece of demonic garbage. **

How do you know so much about masonic writings?

Most holy Theotokos, save us.

Anonymous said...

http://www.thecatholicfaith.blogspot.com/

I am not Spartacus said...

I do support freedom of religion however. The Catholic record of killing non-violent heretics is not of God. I am glad it's behind us.

During the, roughly, 250 years of the Spanish Inquisition, the State put to death about 3000 people who were deserving of the death penalty.

In two days, Moses had 47,000 put to death.

During the time of the Spanish Inquisition, the Catholic Church indeed had the God-Given authority, and duty, (Matt 16:18,19) to protect the Faith from heresy even as Moses had the God-given authority to protect and defend the Faith back in Old Testament times.

Sadly, The Inquisition has fallen into such desuetude that it has virtually been ecclesiastically-extinguished and it ought be brought back.

As the redoubtable Mr H.W. Crocker observed in "Triumph, The Power and Glory of The Catholic Church, if Germany had had the Inquisition, the world would never had to experience all of the evil wrought by Hitler.

Anonymous said...

Amen Nathaniel - state of necessity, state of emergency. And it's only getting worse.

Anonymous said...

We now have this wretched declaration by the Press Office on top of Assissi III and the praising of Luther by the Holy Father. Quo vadis Peter?
While I do not agree with + Archbishop Levebre and Bishop Williamson statement that Rome has lost the Faith, I think that the there are two factions in the Roman Curia: the rabid liberals who are majority, and a few traditionalists that keep the Faith. The former seem to have the upper hand at this time.
C.M.

Anonymous said...

Ferraiuolo said...
Ego locuto est, causa finita est

No, no, no; Ego locutus est, causa finita est.

Matthew said...

Anon 14:40:

I am sorry for you. Truly sorry. To a smaller extent, it seems, than yourself, I know your pain. I came into the Church just about 6 or 7 months ago, and what I read and studied that got me there is not what I saw where I was received.

Try to seek out a priest celebrating the Traditional Mass (TLM, Extraordinary Form, whatever name it goes by) in your diocese or nearby. Rorate has links to websites that list where the Traditional Mass is celebrated. These priests are usually very reliable.

Anonymous said...

This is a line-by-line contradiction of the Syllabus of Errors. If this Prefect us unable to understand how to reconcile Dignitatis Humanæ and the Syllabus, then how can the average Catholic 'discern' how?

This nails the coffin shut: Bishop Fellay can not sign a deal with the devil of œcumenism, the fiend of collegiality, the Satan of religious liberty and the cursed trinity that manifests itself in the liturgical effluent which has issued out of Bugnini's Consilium.

P.K.T.P.

Clinton said...

This is atrocious. How can anyone in the Church have anything to do with promoting false religions? The Church is tasked with the same mission given to the Apostles by Our Lord Jesus, namely go to all nations and make disciples of them. Apostasy is rearing it's ugly Satanic head.

M. A. said...

Peace is a gift from God while wars are punishment for sin.

It is a confused mind, (or even a sick one) which would propose peace for humanity based on "mutual understanding" between light and darkness, between Truth and error.

Better were the Church to proclaim days of repentance with fasting, ashes and sackcloth; we have grievously offended God and we are due for one major chastisement.

Not even the "innate dignity" of God's creatures once cut off from the Vine will spare them the fires of eternal damnation. What then of their "dignity"?

Apart from God we are absolutely nothing. I am sick and tired of hearing of the rights of man based on his "dignity". What did Jesus say to Pontius Pilate when the latter claimed power over Him?

Even the evil doers are powerless unless God permits them to do harm, something which He does allow, often because we justly deserved it.

"Assisi" will not spare the world from God's justice. Such gatherings are only tempting God who is not mocked.

Anonymous said...

Anon 14:40, Go to Catholicism.org

Anonymous said...

Abp Celata is an interesting cleric typical "diplomat" without practical pastoral experience. He has been a nuncio in numerous countries and in 2002, he was appointed by John Paul II to his present function as secretary. So we can presume he is fostering the same "spirit of Assisi" he was pushing before 2005.

Here is the same bla-bla-bla message for the same Hindu feast written by the same Abp Celata in 2009 as summarized by VIS :

VATICAN CITY, 16 OCT 2009 (VIS) - Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, president of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, has written a message to Hindus for the feast of Deepavali, which is being celebrated during the month of October. The message, published today, is entitled: "Christians and Hindus: Committed to Integral Human Development".


"In the process of integral development, protection of human life and respect for the dignity and fundamental rights of the person, are a responsibility of everyone, both individually and collectively", says the text, which also bears the signature of Archbishop Pier Luigi Celata, secretary of the pontifical council.

"Respect for others therefore implies the recognition of their freedom: freedom of conscience, thought and religion".

Cardinal Tauran and Archbishop Celata conclude by stating that "integral human development also requires the political will to work towards ensuring greater protection of human rights and peaceful co-existence. Development, freedom and peace are inextricably linked together, and they complete one another".
"

In between, terrible persecutions of Christians are still taking place and the subject is put under the rug in 2011 just like in 2009 and before. Abp Celata keeps repeating "religious freedom" and you are all so nice and beautiful ... upon the corpses of newly murdered Christians, upon ashes of burnt churches ...
Then some people have the nerve to scream about the so-called "silence of Pius XII" and his diplomatic, blurred language : what about the silence of Abp Celata ?

Alsaticus

Malta said...

Anon @14:40. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. So, while these things may offend, it is still better to be on a deflating life-raft than in the sea. Thank goodness for groups such as the FSSPX (and yes, you can fulfill your Sunday Obligation at their Chapels.)

I think the thing to keep in mind is that the Church has always been full of fallible men, starting with the first Pope, a Pope who denied Christ not once but three times.

PKTP, I agree that SSPX shouldn't sign anything that would compromise their values vis a vis Vatican II (a failed Council if there ever was one), but as someone else observed here, "you can't clean the stable until you are in it." This isn't to imply the SSPX is outside the Church (quite the opposite), nor is it to imply their actions haven't already been a "cleansing" of sorts for the Church (for instance, no SSPX, no Summorum Pontificum ) but I think the time has come, under Benedict XVI, to become regularized so their influence can grow..

Nathaniel said...

Mr. Perkins:

Remember, as Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Benedict XVI referred to Gaudium et Spes as the "anti-syllabus" (cf. "The Principles of Catholic Theology"). He would be very comfortable with your description of the above document.

Long-Skirts said...

PIUS
THE
TENTH
PATCH

Brer bishops
Brer priests
And brer people of gods
Say authentic religions
Are never at odds.

Brer mother of ten cried,
"I’m coming un-glued.
I’ve freedom to change
And become a Hindued?”

Brer priest said,
"Ms. Brer have some curry
With me
And together we'll celebrate
Deepavali!"

With these words
Brer mother got sick
And threw up
So brer priest urged her, "Go!
If you can't drink our cup."

"So you're urgin' I go?"
And her head she did scratch,
"Jus' please don't throw me
In no Pius the
Tenth Patch!!"

But brer priest
Flung brer mother
Out the door shut the latch
And forced her to land
In a Pius the Tenth Patch.

So now even Hindus
Are given the nod
By brer bishops
Brer priests
And the Vicar of God.

But high on a hill
Brer mother of ten
Is singin' and kickin'
Her heels
Up again...

"I was born and raised
In a Pius the Tenth Patch
Known as the Catholic Church
And there still ain't
No match!!!"

Anonymous said...

"believers?" In what?

Anonymous said...

We all know we are in the right Church because the devil wouldn't want the wrong one THIS BADLY!!

Brian said...

This nails the coffin shut: Bishop Fellay can not sign a deal with the devil of œcumenism, the fiend of collegiality, the Satan of religious liberty and the cursed trinity that manifests itself in the liturgical effluent which has issued out of Bugnini's Consilium.

P.K.T.P.,
I do not understand how you can advise Bishop Fellay against signing, but also hold that the SSPX can no longer claim that a state of emergency justifies their "irregular" position in the Church.

J. G. Ratkaj said...

Today, electrical storms over Rome:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1020/rome.html

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/one-dead-after-storms-flood-rome-20111021-1mar9.html

Anonymous said...

This is nauseating that the Roman Catholic Church every year sends good wishes and greetings to pagan Hindus and Buddhists for their "festivals".


It is fine to respect a different culture, and even respect their religion without sending greetings for a pagan festival where the people worship idols of stone.

True, this is their culture and they know no better. And I am proud that the Catholic Church never was, and still is not, like the lunatic fundamentalist Pentecostolist missionaries to China and elsewhere 115 years ago who went into ancient temples with baseball bats and smashed the idols to pieces. Their actions triggered the famous "Boxer Rebellion" in China...a movement against foreigners, and particularly against these Protestant Christians nutjobs with bibles and baseball bats...who came mostly from the USA.They reminded me of the antics of Rick Perry and Sarah Palin.

Jordanes551 said...

Anonymous, there are a few saints who literally took clubs or axes to pagan idols.

Anonymous said...

India is cursed with the darkness of this pagan cult of Hinduism and the horrendous caste system. Catholicism exists but only for the untouchables and lower castes even though Our Lord's apostles went there.

Saint Francis Xavier couldn't wait to exit India.

Peterman said...

Saint Pio Nono please come and destroy this pagain idolatry. In Jesus's name we pray. Amen.

Anonymous said...

"I do not understand how you can advise Bishop Fellay against signing, but also hold that the SSPX can no longer claim that a state of emergency justifies their "irregular" position in the Church."

Dude, if this isn't a state of emergency what is?

Anonymous said...

My goodness me, Vatican sending greetings to worshippers of foreign spirits. Dies irae, dies illa...

Anonymous said...

"We all know we are in the right Church because the devil wouldn't want the wrong one THIS BADLY!!"

Good, this one! And true!

To the Anonymous that hesitates coming into the Church:

The subject of this post is most lamentable, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with real Catholicism despite the clerics who are bent on carrying such a depressing and disfigured image of the Church.

Dear Anonymous, permit me to say a few things to you.

1. There is nowhere else to be . The Catholic Church gives us access to God through the Sacraments - and don't deprive yourself of them, especially Confession and the Most Holy Eucharist.

2. The Treasure is always there, despite the messiness and dirt on the surface.

3. Have you already read Chesterton's short masterpieces "Orthodoxy" and the "Everlasting Man"?

4. There are many many fine priests out there - you'll find a good one - I'm sure - without priests - no Catholicism.

5. Dear Anon, stay around Rorate and blogs of this ilk, who remain always faithful to the Pope despite the contradictions and lack of clarity on certain issues, such as this.

5. I hope you don't mind me saying all this to you,as it comes from my heart and my own personal experience. Beleive me there is nothing outside that Catholic Church that is worth a row of beans...the lives of the Saints confirm this.

Forgive me if I have overstepped myself.

May Our Lady protect you and carry you home.

Prayers,

Barbara

Warren Anderson said...

I dare say that no one is more anti-interfaith than I. After having worked for several years with a variety of national and international organizations which bring together different religions for feel-good festivals, I gave up on those kinds of enterprises for the wasted effort it involved. The syncretism was nauseating. Catholics would put in all the effort to promote dialogue and peace at the expense of Catholic identity.

That said, I do not share the bleak outlook to which so many herein this blog cling. The Church will never succumb to the doctrines of demons and idolaters. As for me, I stand with Peter. I caution others to resist the temptation to create false dichotomies between the Church and some imagined "new church". There is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church that is shepherded by Peter, not bloggers nor SSPX-ers nor any self proclaimed pope.

Should the Church attempt to build bridges between people of goodwill? Of course She should - Blessed are the peacemakers. Is the Assisi forum the best way to do that? Perhaps after a significant reform of approach. Given our current pope's masterful ability to see through the fog of relativism, the Barque of Peter is in good hands, turning away from the shoals of false dialogue (we are witnessing an end to ARCIC, for example, and the beginning of a new approach - the Ordinariates) and heading for the open ocean of truth spoken in love, i.e., that Christ is the only hope of salvation of mankind, for He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

Anonymous said...

Because of antics like this, and also Pope Benedict"s Assisi venture, and lastly his latest Motu Proprio "Porta Fidies" which heaps glory and praise on Vatican II, DO NOT be surprised if the SSPX refuses the so called "Doctrinal Preamble" offered by the Vatican.

And justifiably so.

I would rather be faithful to the SSPX and go to Heaven, than acknowledge all this junk as being wonderful, and the direction the Pope is leading as likewise...and be lead down another path.

RobertK said...

"Cruise the Groove" you are confused and you have thereby joined an old and honorable association of similarly afflicted sufferers.
Way back in 1986 the English edition of "Letter to Confused Catholics", by Archbishop M. Lefebvre was published in England by Fowler Wright Books, with a preface written by Fr. Michael Crowdy of the London Oratory.
In the first chapter the author quotes parts of speeches made by Popes Paul VI..."confusion in many souls" and John Paul II..."Christians today, in large part, feel lost, perplexed, confused and even deceived." Many years have passed since then but the confusion is still with us.
This booklet is still available and is worth reading so as to understand the causes of the confusion. It is also to be found online at http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/index.htm
Along with the confusion is the deep sadness which accompanies it as the reality of the situation becomes more apparent. In his excellent little book "Spiritual Journey"(Angelus Press)+Lefebvre relates that at the end of VaticanII ..."Among traditionalists, a good number, henceforward despised by Rome, handed in their resignations. Some, like Archbishop Morcillo of Madrid and Archbishop MacQuaid of Dublin, would die of sadness, as well as many good priests."
Nowadays I am not as confused as I used to be but the sadness remains because the full horror of the effects of the Modernist heresy is all to apparent and potential converts such as Anonymous 14:40 are understandably scandalized by the state of the Church.
To Anonymous 14:40 all I can say is that some holy persons believe that the Church, "the Mystical Body of Christ" lives out down the ages the life of the Redeemer and that it is now going through His Passion whereby it is disfigured and mutilated giving rise to scandal among His followers so that many will abandon it.

Anonymous said...

Someone said, "I should be left alone to follow my conscience and become a peaceful Hindu, Buddhist, etc., but attending an SSPX chapel is a no-no? I don't get it."

Isn't that just so the truth? You know, Rome so loses its own credibility in so many ways. This makes catechizing and evangelizing so much more difficult. Trying to share the Truth with someone and they throw this stuff back in our faces... Yeah.

Jon said, "I pray instead this 'abomination' results in the SSPX grabbing their pitchforks and breaking down the door."

At the same time, I think the SSPX should be telling everyone else go wipe your own...

Prayerfully,

Matt

craig said...

Anonymous said...

"And I am proud that the Catholic Church never was, and still is not, like the lunatic fundamentalist Pentecostolist missionaries to China and elsewhere 115 years ago who went into ancient temples with baseball bats and smashed the idols to pieces..."

No, traditional Catholic outreach tends to look more like this.


"They reminded me of the antics of Rick Perry and Sarah Palin."

This is just absurd. Whatever one thinks of either one, neither of them is advancing an evangelical protestant theocracy except in the fevered imaginations of those already snobbish against Southerners and Westerners. Your kind of talk reminds me of Tom Wolfe's famous line (quoting Jean-François Revel): "the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

Catholics still have themselves to thank for electing the most radical pro-abortion president ever.

Lee Lovelock-Jemmott said...

These heretical clergy will meet their day when there will be no mercy for such words attack the Bride of Christ and thus ignite the anger of Our Lord. I would happily if told to do so execute these heretics who devour the faith of its meaning and present syncretic and entirely heterodox and heretical creeds!!! The Latin Rite of the church needs saving and it needs it FAST.

Anonymous said...

did you know the pope was excommunicated by the schismatic by the "Byzantine Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate" (the recent ukrainian schism)?

Anonymous said...

Hi Craig:

I cut/pasted this part of your post, which originally came from mine:


"Anonymous said...

"And I am proud that the Catholic Church never was, and still is not, like the lunatic fundamentalist Pentecostolist missionaries to China and elsewhere 115 years ago who went into ancient temples with baseball bats and smashed the idols to pieces..."

No, traditional Catholic outreach tends to look more like this."

And then you had a link to some evangelical Protestant link showing how Pentecostolists are persecuted in Mexico. LOL!!

I just wanted to tell you that I've studied history. I've helped a priest/author write a very informative book on the disaster of Vatican II (I did research for him).
I've also been to Mexico 2x. My first time, in 2009, I saw these imported from the USA Protestant Evangelical missionaries in action in Mexico.
They went around destroying statues of Catholic saints, defacing Churches, spitting on nuns and priests etc. Really great people, right?
And they encouraged their few converts to do the same.
Many Catholic villages run these Protestants out of town in time, or treaten them in other ways because they disturb the order of the town, they degrade the Catholic Faith, they forment hatred.
The press often loves to run stories about how the percentage of Catholics is declining in Latin America, falling to the wave of Pentecostolist Protestantism. They portray the increase of Protestants as the future of Latin America. They're wrong.
I've lived in Mexico for two long stretches. I have friends who live there all year. Many, many Catholics who converted to Pentecostal Protestant went off searching for another religion 2-3 years later...or went back to the Catholic Church.
Many have turned to the SSPX, and there's dozens of Catholic villages in the hills in Mexico loyal to the SSPX and traditional Catholicism.
Many former Pentecostolist Christians have also turned, surprisingly, to Islam. And there are at least 3 large villages in Mexico which were once Pentecostolist bible thumping Christians which are now Muslim conplete with their own small mosques, marketplaces, and Islamic schools called a midrasa.

Craig tried to portray these Pentecostolists as victims in Mexico, but by stirring up so much hatred (and that's what they are doing), they are being beaten and run out of town. And they deserve it 100% !

Anonymous said...

"With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but 'after the first and second admonition,' as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, 'A little leaven,' says: 'Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.'" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae 2-2.11.3c)

All the more could St. Jerome's comment be applied to the arch-heresiarch Luther. I say Catholics have a right to their own society, culture and state, for when the windows are opened to the world, the smoke of Satan enters. The enemies of God are seeing to it that the last vestiges of Catholic society are destroyed, and they won't stop in their efforts until they they have destroyed the Church. Time is on our side, however, and Christ has won the victory. The modern tower of Babel built on man apart from Christ and His Church (i.e., the secular state), whose origin is found in the Protestant revolt, is imploding spiritually, morally, economically and demographically, proving the eternal wisdom of the Church and Her teachers true. Long live Christ the King. Long live His Church.

Sobieski

Małopolanin said...

You know we can learn something from the Hindus.. India might be a precedent for Catholics as it is going down the road to becoming a Hinduistic confessional state coupled with dynamic economic growth. I wish that Poland, Italy, Spain, France, Belgium, Ireland, Lithaunia, Croatia, Portugal, Slovenia, might undertake this task. Who knows, if we work together and be patient in 20 or 50 years, our nation-states will be ruled by the principles of Catholic morality.
BTW, Catholics need to organise themselves in the States. For the sake of religion, Catholics in country where they're minorities need to create Catholic ghettos. There are many ways toward Catholicism, and the priestly spiritual theology is one of many ways toward the manifestation of a Catholic society. Shopping exclusively at Catholic owned businesses, avoiding contact with nonbelievers(there are 90 million baptised Catholics in the US, even in Alabama you can avoid Protestants), shunning of heretics, employing solely Catholics, creating limited companies in which all the officers and shareholders are Catholics, et cetera..

Hidden One said...

Humilitas.