Very well put NC-Thanx
This post causes bitter pangs for those of us exiled in Novus Ordo Land, where in the English-speaking regions of that barren desert we console ourselves this weekend with measly crumbs in the form of the new translation of the Missal of Paul VI. Our longing will not be fulfilled until the true Missale Romanum is restored as the Ordinary Form of Mass.
@David,IMO, If you feel that you are " exiled in Novus Ordo Land" then I would recommend finding the closest TLM cum Extrordinary Rite and vote with your feet. If there are more people of the same sentiments w/regard to the NO, did the same thing it would show in clear methods where the future of the liturgy is to be found.
David,Why not get a "stable group" of friends (can be small) and ask a nearby priest or, if necessary, the local ordinary to provide for your liturgical desires, per Summorum Pontificum and Universale Ecclesia (cf. 8) and request that your legitimate spiritual desires be provided for? The beauty of the SP and UE is that no one should be forced to be "exiled to Novus ordo land", if that is not their desire (within reasonable limits of course.., eg people in barren deserts, etc.).
is it inappropriate to say that the changes to the NO "is like putting lipstick on a pig?"I don't mean to call the valid N.O. Holy Sacrafice of the Mass as a pig but....you know what I mean?
Our sad situation (in the country in England) is that we have a Traditional Mass every Sunday in a beautiful unspoiled parish church,said by good and busy priests travelling some distance, and we cannot get a decent number of people: our numbers have gone down and down.It is advertised we have the "run of the place" with no fierce/tolerating priest breathing fire and asking how long we will be.The peolpe are not coming; sad.
This is an old problem speaking for myself while th N. O. may or may not be vailed it depend s on how it said where it said.I always say look how it done on EWTN TO ME IF THAT WAS OFFER AT MY LOCAL N.O. parrish I would go more often however I still object to the ORDINARY TIME nonsence and the PAUL vi Calendar. Until then I will go to the mass of all time.
"The people are not coming; sad."More importantly though . . . those who want to be there will come.
anon.faith follows liturgy and liturgy follows faith. Which is predominant? I would think faith is. So when the faith comes back the Latin Mass will burn with the fury of the Holy Ghost and the faithful will tremble with awe.At this point the Holy Ghost is laying the groundwork. Surely when the "Warning" comes spoken about by Sr. Faustina and a whole slew of Post '60 private revelations that the trads reject, The Catholic Church will be the city shining on the hill, "and all nations will flock to it"
"the people are not coming". This is a great problem. Our EF Mass community has remained about the same size in California, 100-150, since Summorum Pontificum. We should be growing. I think our most important action as traditional Catholics is to attend TLM. One good way to help is when one travels, look up the offerings in Wikimissa.
I appreciate the suggestions in response to my comment. The difficulty comes when attachment to the Old Mass threatens to split a marriage. In this case, the sheep need the strong hand of the shepherd. We need a Pope who is not afraid to abrogate the Mass of Paul VI, for the glory of God and the greater good of the Church. This would cut the Gordian knot for many of us.In any case, I wish my traditionalist friends a blessed new liturgical year.
One of the biggest myths was always that if you start a TLM everyone will come, but that's nonsense. Most Catholics have completely lost their faith. This restoration, and growth in numbers, will take dacades.
@ benjoyce "is it inappropriate to say that the changes to the NO "is like putting lipstick on a pig?""I dunno if it's inappropriate, even though the metaphor conveys a precise assesment. It will however impact the math of your social sphere, as I've discovered by saying precisely those same words. Frequently.
To all:David lives about 30 minutes from an FSSP parish but his wife refuses to go the TLM even though David is far more nourished by the TLM than the Novus Ordo.Please pray that his wife soon sees the light and wants to come to the TLM.
Thank you, Cruise. :-)The FSSPX is also within a reasonable distance. I've attended Mass at both the FSSP parish and FSSPX chapel. Please do not think badly of my wife, whom I love, and who brought me to the Catholic Faith 25 years ago. Pray for my wife, yes, but pray also for the Pope, that he might finally do the right thing and abrogate the Mass of Paul VI. I know that if my wife had no other choice, she would attend the TLM. She wouldn't be happy about it, but I'm sure that she would eventually become accustomed to the Mass of Ages, just as she became accustomed to the guitar masses of her youth.
David, I don't know your situation, or if you have children. But you can't lay this one only at the feet of the pope. Either you or you wife have to change. Why you? Men have to start being men again to effect change in the Church. We can't sit back and wait for Pius XIII.
Adfero,You're right, I cannot just lay this at the feet of the Pope. That said, you don't know the battles that I've fought over this issue -- to the point of risking the breakdown of my marriage. Perhaps I haven't fought hard enough. Perhaps I'm a coward. Perhaps, as you imply, I'm not man enough. But let's not sidetrack with my personal problems Rorate's celebration of the new liturgical year.
@David: Sorry to hear, mate, but rest(!) assured of my prayers :)A brother in faith from across the Channel.
David, I was not saying you're not a man, just that you shouldn't hold your breath and wait. You can't at least go every other week? Go alone sometimes? I just can't believe God would let your marriage crumble by doing what's in your heart and glorifying Him at the TLM. But as I said, I don't know the particulars.
AdferoRe David "I just can't believe God would let your marriage crumble by doing what's in your heart and glorifying Him at the TLM."Yes, God would.“Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household..." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)I'm almost kind of having the same problem as David because, although my husband has been to a few TLMs, he would still rather go to the much nearer NO Mass.
Damask, tuche.But I do know, unfortunately, some traditional men who go to our church whose wives go to the Novus Ordo separately. It's a shame, to be sure. But there has to be something else at work for that to end a marriage. So I still wouldn't say ithat is the real cause.I feel for all of you. I was able to convince my wife before we married to go to the TLM and now I take it for granted how blessed I am to raise my children in tradition.But we must continue to fight. We can't wait for anyone to give it to us.
My wife had too many hours, so I dispensed her with going to the TLM. Now that she is out of work, I had to persuade her to go to Holy Mass, and I am not talking about the novusordo. Happily , we now go as a family every Sunday to a SSPX Mass and she is learning latin.Déo Grátias!!
I think what it boils down to is conversion.I went to my first TLM and it was "wow". I couldn't get through the text fast enough. Spiritually, I can see how it works within me.With my husband though, perhaps it's a slower process. We all just need to go to the TLM as a family from time to time. But, if my husband wants us to go to the NO, I'll go to that because I don't want to split the family up. I have previously gone to the TLM on my own when they've gone to the NO and I don't really want to do that. Give and take I guess.But, and a very big BUT, I am pulling more and more towards the TLM, even though I love singing hymns. And if I don't go to the TLM for a while, I really start to miss it. Amazing that.What to do? Sometimes I go to the TLM in the week or twice to Mass on Sunday; one NO, then TLM!I noticed that more and more priests (albeit slowly) are saying the Latin Mass in my diocese. I guess the good Fathers are converting too.Perhaps praying for the grace of conversion for all is the answer.
This post is most appropriate. The reform of the reformers keep wanting to window dress a mass that should never have been to begin with. EWTN has been obsessing about the new translation as if new wording will make it the greatest liturgy ever. It still doesn't hide the fact that the mass will still be in the vernacular and concocted by the Bugnini posse to give us some protestant friendly liturgy. Unless whole pieces of the TLM were inserted into the NO, you can only traditionalize it to a certain point.
Damask Rose,If you really believe that the Novus Ordo is a protestant concoction that isn't even valid, how can you go with your husband? As a Catholic, you're forbidden to participate in non-Catholic worship. Fortunately, however, I think that almost everyone here will assure you that the Novus Ordo is indeed valid. Strictly speaking, the Novus Ordo is not a protestant service. It is a valid Catholic Mass that is set in a theologically deficient liturgy. Believe me, if I was convinced that the Novus Ordo was really not Catholic, I wouldn't go, not even for the sake of my wife. I also would spare no effort to convince my wife to leave the Novus Ordo. Thank God that isn't reality.You are right that prayer for conversion is paramount, whether we assist at the TLM or the Novus Ordo. Sedevacantism is not the answer. God bless!
The choice to attend the NO or the TLM is not always an easy one when you live a great distance from a TLM or if you have a spouse who has reservations about attending. It will cause immense strife in your marriage if you force your hand or "drag" your spouse to the TLM before he/she is ready. Pray constantly for your spouse. Expose them as much as possible to the TLM. Have them read Msgr. Gamber's book, but never force your hand. Any good that might benefit from attending the TLM might very much be weighed down by the strife caused by going. Breaking up who goes to what Mass sends a terrible message to your children as well. Decisions in a marriage need to be made by both spouses. Pax,Kevin(A husband who speaks from experience.)
"Everybody, in the meantime, I have lost the faith in the Real Presence as confected in the Novus Ordo." -DROn this question of the essential and intrinsic validity of the Mass, the Novus Ordo and the Old Mass are absolutely equivalent, despite all statements to the contrary, my own included, if ever I have expressed such. One rite is as capable as the other to determine the consecratory sacramental and sacrificial Action of Christ. This is because of its divine institution, which both rites follow in substance, and because of the subjection of the priest to Christ, as implied in his intention to say Mass or "celebrate the Eucharist", no matter how confused or implicit this intention may be.I stress this point because certain extravagant demands have led many of the faithful to disdain so-called modern Masses although they are perfectly valid, to deny the Real Presence effected by such Masses, and so to insult the sacerdotal character of the celebrating priest, all of which constitutes a sin against Christ Himself, the Sovereign Priest in His Sacrifice, which they imagine themselves to be defending!The Ordination conferred on His Apostles by Christ gives each priest a personal power over His Body and Blood. But this power is dependent on the collegial power given to the hierarchical Church, a power of co-operating with Her Lord. And her mystic participation in every Eucharistic Sacrifice is manifest through the set of liturgical regulations which determine, according to the will of the Church, the confection, distribution and application of the fruits of the Sacrament. The rites and rubrics fixed by the Church guarantee her co-operation in the work of Christ and bring about the mystic fulfilment of this work. They (the rites) therefore determine the liceity of the Action.Whether it is a matter of the centuries-old Mass, longstanding rites, or the New Mass, it is always the one Mass of Christ and of the Catholic Church, valid therefore and licit. God would not allow the appearances and the laws to be so deceptive, nor would He permit that a rite of divine institution codified by the ordinance of the Roman hierarchy should be neither valid nor licit. If that were the case, the Gates of Hell would have prevailed. There would be no more Church.http://www.crc-internet.org/mass.htm
Steve, the CRC article is very helpful. It puts a lot of things in perspective for me. I'm holding onto it. Thank you!Kevin, your words echo the advice given me by an impeccably Traditional priest. Well said!
"Most Catholics have completely lost their faith."Indeed Adfero, this is the critical position we are in. The Latin Mass of All Time would be but a start to remissionising our decatholicised universe. Until the NO is finally abolished there is absolutely no hope of restoration.
For those facing marital strife over which Masses to attend, let me offer an infallible solution: The rosary.Whatever good, specially a spiritual grace, is asked of our Lady through Her rosary, will be obtained. I know from experience. It may not be the solution one finds to be ideal from society's viewpoint - the entire family worshiping together - but it will be what God wills. A couple who would split over which Mass to attend already has problems and the Mass issue would only be the mere "straw to break the camel's back."God wills that a family stay together; but He also wills that He be given first place. In choosing God, we win all and lose nothing.
In light of some of the well-intentioned responses to my situation, I should really clarify that the threat of an actual split over the Mass is more of a specter in my own mind than a probable reality. There is definitely conflict over the Mass, which I now avoid, but the consequences of confronting the issue again are perhaps not as dire as I've made them out to be. There is quite simply a lot of fear on my end, and lack of faith. That's the truth of it.The irony is, I don't think that my lack of faith would necessarily be resolved by the TLM. It's not as if the TLM is a magic wand. Besides, I've fed my mind with Traditional Catholic literature for many years now, and I pray the rosary daily. In the end, we all must strive to "enter by the narrow gate", irrespective of the liturgy with which we have cast our lot. The Novus Ordo is where I will work out my salvation "in fear and trembling". Pray for me. I wish you all well.
Dear allThank you for all your comments and Steve many thanks for the Abbe's CRC Journal article. I've saved it on my laptop. I now understand the validity and liceity of the NO, but feel that I am in agreement with Part III of the Abbe's article.In all honesty, I had been deliberating as to whether I should kneel for Communion at a Sunday NO Mass, and then all these doubts flew at me,*sigh*. I agree with the Abbe's comment, "The good still reaches those who celebrate or participate in this Mass with a Catholic faith, a sincere obedience to the Church, and a pure intention, and who furthermore preserve themselves from the snares of error or lukewarmness."At the end of the day, I think it all comes down to obedience, where one can't go wrong:"In the Diary of St Faustina Kowalska we read:"...Jesus says; 'Obedience. I have come to do My Father’s will. I obeyed my Parents, I obeyed My tormentors and now I obey the Priests' ...I understood that our efforts, no matter how great, are not pleasing to God if they do not bear the seal of obedience.... I understand, O Jesus, the spirit of obedience and in what it consists. It includes not only external actions, but also one’s reason, will and judgment. In obeying our superiors, we obey God.." -Diary of Saint Faustina KowalskaAnd elsewhere in her diary she writes: "Satan can even clothe himself in a cloak of humility, but he does not know how to wear the cloak of obedience." (Diary, par. 939)." ('Mystics of the Church' website.) At the end of the day my going to the NO because my husband perfers me to go with him is this:"Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior." (Ephesians 5:22) and"Wives, be obedient to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them." (Colossians 3:18)Finally, Eve was created from Adam's rib to be his companion, and well, me, being a 'rib', I need to protect and look after my husband's heart, so I just have to pray about this.I've read a few stories where a wife's prayers can convert her husband.I think I'll have to do some reparation and I'll have to re-read St Faustina's Diary again.
"The Novus Ordo is where I will work out my salvation 'in fear and trembling'. "I can understand how working out one's salvation in the novus ordo Church would cause fear and trembling, especially if you are there under duress rather than by conviction.
David: In the end, we all must strive to "enter by the narrow gate", irrespective of the liturgy with which we have cast our lot. Agree. But i think by giving up and condemning yourself to the NO you're making it a lot harder. Remember, the Mass isn't just a small thing, it's the source and summit of our lives. Don't give up on getting to the TLM.
Post a Comment