Rorate Caeli

Fellay: "I thought that, with his resignation, he would perhaps make a final gesture in our favor as Pope." (Updated)

Interview granted by the Superior General of the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX), Bp. Bernard Fellay, to Nouvelles de France (Feb. 15 edition). No time for a translation now, but he says that for a brief moment following the papal resignation he expected a sign in their favor, but now thinks this is unlikely to happen: "It will probably be necessary to wait for the next pope."

Update: full translation provided by the American District of the SSPX:
Your Excellency, would you appreciate it if the last major act of Benedict XVI’s pontificate could be the reintegration of the Society of St. Pius X?

Bishop Bernard Fellay: For a moment I thought that, with his resignation, Benedict XVI would perhaps make a final gesture in our favor as pope. That being said, I have a hard time seeing how he could do so. We will probably have to wait for the next pope. I will even go so far as to say, at the risk of surprising you, that the Church has more important problems than the Society of St. Pius X, and in a way, it is by resolving these problems that the problem of the Society will be solved.


Some say that you wish Rome to recognize that the ordinary rite is illicit; can you tell us more on this point?

We know very well that it is very difficult to ask the authorities to condemn the new mass. In reality, if what needs to be corrected were corrected, it would already be a big step.

How?

It can be done by an instruction from the Congregation for the Divine Cult and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It’s not that complicated, really. I think that important changes need to be made because of the serious and dangerous deficiencies that make this rite condemnable. The Church could very well make these important corrections without losing face or undermining her authority. But at present, I am aware of the opposition from a number of bishops to the Pope’s legitimate request that the translation in the Canon of the Mass of “pro multis” by “for all” be corrected and replaced by “for many”, since the former translation which can be found in several languages is false.

Would you like to say anything about Vatican II?

As far as Vatican II is concerned, just like for the Mass, we believe that it is necessary to clarify and correct a certain number of points that are either erroneous or lead to error. That being said, we do not expect Rome to condemn Vatican II any time soon. She can recall the Truth and discretely correct the errors, while preserving her authority. Nonetheless, we think that the Society contributes to the Lord’s edifice by denouncing certain disputed points.

Concretely speaking, you know that your demands will not be answered overnight.

Absolutely, but little by little they eventually will be, I think. And the time will come when the situation will become acceptable and we will be able to agree, even if that does not seem to be the case today.

You met with Benedict XVI in the first months of his pontificate; can you tell us what your impression of him was at that time?

I can say that I met with a pope who had a sincere desire to bring about the unity of the Church, even if we were not able to agree. But I assure you that I pray for him every day.

In your opinion, what was the most important act of his pontificate?

I think that the most important act was without any doubt the publication of the motu proprio, Summorum Pontificum which grants to priests everywhere in the world the freedom to celebrate the traditional Mass. Might I add that he acted with courage, for there was opposition. And I think that this act will bear very positive fruits in the long run.

65 comments:

Francis Ma said...

Pope Benedict XVI, being an architect and an apologist of the Second Vatican Council as a peritus will never condemn and admit to its faults, and will IMHO go to his grave believing it was created for the good of the Church. I agree with Bishop Fellay that the SSPX will have to wait for the next Pope to be "regularized". Hopefully a traditional and orthodox Pope who wasn't part of the Council that created so much havoc and confusion for the last fifty years.

givemeabreak said...

Wait for what...
A Pope who will submit
to the SSPX?

A Catholic Guy said...

Dear Bishop Fellay,
Have you ever heard the story about the man who is drowning? He prays to God to help him. A boat shows up, but the man tells the occupants that God will save. A couple of more boats show up with the same outcome. Finally the man drowns. When he meets God, he complains that God didn't help him. God responds "I sent three boats."

Two Popes have sent you boats, but you don't seem to recognize them for what they are: chances to firmly set your feet on the Barque of Peter. I'm little worried for your sake and for everyone that clings to the SSPX that the last boat has been sent. I hope it hasn't, but ... I sincerely hope that if another boat is sent, you scramble on board as fast you can.

poeta said...

He has a realistic view of how the Church will correct herself, bit by bit and not in some abrupt condemnation of the Council. It's basically what he has always said, that the "problem" of the SSPX will disappear when the Church eventually gets back on course.

Anonymous said...

there is time still... Trust the Pope.

JB said...


Reading the pope's comments today for some reason the scene in Bridge over the River Kwai came to my mind. The one in which Alec Guinness's character finally realizes that the bridge he labored to erect was counter-productive and an aid to the enemy, and exclaims "My God what have I done" just before falling on the detonator and exploding it, in a final act of self sacrifice and humility.

My heart goes out to him. He is a very good man. I just think that generation stormed into Rome in the early 60s and thought that they were the proverbial "best and brightest" and elbowed truly wise men like Ottaviani out of the way.

absconde_me said...

I believe that SSPX has failed to understand Pope Benedict. I believe that Pope Benedict senses that the theological and philosophical resources of the Church that emerged from the Counter-Reformation, while they served the Church well in the 16th-18th century, are not, in and of themselves, sufficient to fight for souls in the post-modern era. My sense is that SSPX simply lumps Pope Benedict in with Hans Kung et al, but is not capable itself of calling others to Christ, but rather, is simply hardening its shell and closing in on itself. I think SSPX has not and is not making its concerns clearly understood to the orthodox-minded of The Church outside of SSPX. I am beginning to sense that SSPX is determined to remain cut off from the Vine...which will damage both the Church at large...and SSPX.

Xavier said...

The SSPX shouldn't be waiting for anything. They should be crawling to Rome on their knees, literally, and asking for forgiveness.

Once back within the fold of the Church couldn't they do much more to reform regions with sloppy liturgy than they can whining from the outside?

Many Catholics agree with the sentiments of the SSPX (myself included)! Come back in and swell the ranks of the tradition-minded. Do it now while their is still a Pope who will allow it, or it may be too late!

Common Sense said...

Dear Catholic Guy,
Have you read the story from the ancient Greek narrator, Aesop, about the donkey on the ice? Ovbiously the donkey didn't heed the advice, fell asleep and the ice collapsed due to his body heat, causing his drowning. So the same case is happening to the Novus Ordo drowning under it's weight of iniquity and scandal. Barely a skeleton is remaining. In ten years time only dry bones will be all that is left. His Lordship, Bishop Fellay is not concerned because he knows that the truth will prevail - and the truth is tradition.

Matt said...

A Catholic Guy said, "Dear Bishop Fellay, have you ever heard the story about the man who is drowning?"

Catholic Guy, have you ever heard the story of the frog who gave a piggy-back ride to the scorpion?

Elizabeth said...

I had the same thought when I heard the news of the Holy Father abdicating. Hmm, maybe between now and his final day, he'll do something all on his own between himself and Bishop Fellay. A final parting gift. I'm still hoping.

JM said...

The SSPX hardly needs to scramble. The boat that is at the moment sinking is the one the Vatican is weighing down. Christ promised that His Church would not be defeated. He did not promise it would not suffer awful wounds. Right now, the SSPX is offering Rome needed medicine. To act like IT needs to go scurrying after Benedict XVIs coattails... Spare me. Organizational unity is important, but not at the cost of agreeing to conciliar nonsense. It is not the SSPX that needs to repent. It is Rome. The quite obvious truth at this juncture. ANy bonafide Catholic Guy should realize this. Spin to the contrary... give ME a break. Sheesh!

Tom said...

Common Sense said..."So the same case is happening to the Novus Ordo drowning under it's weight of iniquity and scandal. Barely a skeleton is remaining. In ten years time only dry bones will be all that is left."

As Pope Benedict XVI declared, in vast areas of the world, the Catholic Church is in danger of virtual extinction. However, in addtional areas of the world, there remain hundreds of millions of Catholics who assist regularly at Mass.

In 10 years from today, unless we are in the literal last days, hundreds of millions of Catholics will remain within the Church. As long as Mass attendance in the United States, Mexico, Central and South America remains in the 10 to 25 percent range, plenty of Catholics will fill the pews each Sunday.

That will enable the modernists in those regions to claim that Catholicism is "vibrant" and in the midst of a liturgical and spiritual springtime. Catholic churches in Asia and Africa are packed each Sunday with the Faithful.

The bones that you mentioned are far from dying out.

At any rate, the Holy See is determined to move forward with the Novus Ordo.

Tom

Tom said...

Francis Ma said..."Pope Benedict XVI, being an architect and an apologist of the Second Vatican Council as a peritus will never condemn and admit to its faults, and will IMHO go to his grave believing it was created for the good of the Church."

Actually, Pope Benedict XVI has identified "faults" in regard to Vatican II. But he has not bowed to the SSPX's claim that the Council contains errors.

The Holy Catholic Church, now and forever, will never declare the above. She will never accept the Society's claim that the Novus Ordo is "evil".

The Catholic Church would be finished should She announce to the world that She, for decades, embraced and taught evil.

If She bowed to such insanity, the Eastern Orthodox, Protestants and every religion, along with the secular world, would dance in the streets with great joy as they denounced the Catholic Church as history's greatest fraud.

Each sentient adult Catholic would bolt that day from the Church. Nobody in his right mind would embrace the so-called "True Church" that, for decades, had embraced and taught grave errors and evil.

The "manufacture" of "banal" Liturgy is one thing...the insistence that said Liturgy is "evil" is another thing...tremendously different.

Tom

Steve said...

Very easy solution. The SSPX accepted a protocol that they signed. Even better today for them, they've got bishops, which they wanted then. Now they've got their bishops, so just give them them a new copy of the protocol they accepted and signed.

Truth Seeker said...

"Catholic Guy, have you ever heard the story of the frog who gave a piggy-back ride to the scorpion?"

Ok, Matt.

Which do you think the frog--SSPX or the Catholic Church in communion with the Pope?

And which is the scorpion?

Jonvilas said...

Dear JM and all, once again and again with your comments you simply prove what has been said many times – FSSPX is not in unity with the See of Peter. You may claim as many times as you want that you are inside the Church, but all you words and deeds proves that you are not. And it is most pitiful. Alas, this passage from the interview with Bp Felay also indicates that despite all their declarations FSSPX is moving towards its own some kind of virtual church. Although, it is very true what Bp Felay said, that at present moment the Church has much more bigger problems than FSSPX. Nevertheless, that constant claim that Rome should convert to FSSPX and all that self-righteousness of yours does not appear to be a true way.

Gratias said...

The SSPX should be ashamed of their hubris. The Church will move on without them. The FSSP and Summorum Pontificum Masses will continue to grow. Gratitude is not the SSPX strength. Respect was what was in order now. Bishop Fellay likes the limelight too much. He should learn from the humility of the FSSP. They will grow while the SSPX withers.

Thank you Holy Father, we stand cum Papa nostro.

Matt said...

Elizabeth said, "maybe between now and his final day, he'll do something all on his own between himself and Bishop Fellay. A final parting gift. I'm still hoping."

Amen, Elizabeth. Yes, we're all hoping. :)

Joshua said...

I think the echoes of the "pure church" of the Donatists are really rather too loud...

MBlanton said...

I humbly submit that I, as a member of the SSPX recognize our Pope and thank him for the wonderful inroads back to tradition thus far. However, I cannot get down on my knees to this Pope or any Pope and ask to be forgiven and brought back into 'the fold'. I never left the fold. The fold left me. Faith is greater than obedience. Instead, I would get down on my knees and crawl to the Holy Father and ask him to see the error of his ways, his modernist thinking. For example, there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. I am scandalized that my Holy Father asks me to 'walk' with our Lutheran brothers. Pius XI declared in the Encyclical Mortalium animos that “the [re]union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it.”

Until then, I remain united and stand for truth no matter how long it takes and my knees will be bent in prayer to restore the traditional Church, not bent to crawl towards iniquity. And as for that boat that has been sent 3 times already, that's no boat, that's the Titanic!

beng said...

Goodbye SSPX.

As Christ Church keeps on going, the SSPX will become a ghetto-like community much like Old Catholics and the Sedevacantists.

Because slowly (very slowly) the Church shall shed of its modernist debris thanks to the vibrant young, traditional faithful INSIDE the Church.

beng said...

Matt so SSPX is the scorpion?

Alphege said...

Such self-obsession.

Jonvilas said...

Dear MBlanton, I am not a priest, thus not in full capacity to judge, but you phrasing, to quote, "I cannot get down on my knees to this Pope or any Pope and ask to be forgiven and brought back into 'the fold'. I never left the fold. The fold left me.", looks very much like a vice of self-righteousness, which arises from the sin of pride. The pope is the vicar of Christ, but you declare that you are not going to get on your knees before this or any other vicar of Christ Jesus. Thus, one may question, whether you are going to get on your knees before Jesus Christ our Lord himself. Sorry to hear that.

LeonG said...

As a genuine supporter of The SSPX whose parents helped The Society from the beginning, I have to state the following.

This latest utterance by Bishop Fellay, if it truly be his own, once again demonstrates his clear failure to understand Joseph Alois Ratzinger the man and the cardinal. Papa Ratzinger would never subsume his conciliar vision to Society recommendations and to accommodate the latent ambitions of the superior general of The Society.

Firstly, he believes that there is no rupture in the church since 1965 and, therefore, The Confraternity must acquiesce to the hermeneutic of continuity and the evolutionary process of living tradition represented by conciliar history since its inauguration. This, he protests, is in accord with all previous magesterial teachings etc., etc.

Secondly, and this is patently clear (for once) that The SSPX has to submit to the authority of papal directives concerning the Councils which are not open to discussion other than for clarification as part and parcel of the Catholic Faith as it has always existed. Thus, for Bishop Fellay to have already accepted in principle 95% of the Councils is tantamount to full acceptance with exception to what can only be described as misgivings about certain points of disagreement over what has evolved pastorally and as a matter of misinterpetation of the conciliar "spirit" as a debated contemporary reality and as was the argued orthodox intention.

Thirdly, the years of discussions between the liberal modernists/neo-conservatives at The Vatican and The Society revealed troubling deep divisions within The Confraternity itself. These, and a number of notable overt criticisms of the modern church with regard to the status of the jews, ecumenism, the NO Mass and others reflects the necessity of delaying possible mutual accommodations until some later date.

My advice to Bishop Fellay would be to sit down and read all of the Pope's writings and to seriously reflect on the true position of Archbishop Lefebvre, not the reductionist and sanitised ones of late, and then conclude it would be more prudent to await the election of the new pope. For the present, The Councils are not for sale.

With reference to some of the views expressed concerning the potential and permanent alienation of The SSPX from the mainstream liberal modernist church, these are mistaken. Hopefully, at some distant future point, when the modernism in the church subsides in the face of a gradual and genuine restoration, we shall see the regrouping of traditionalist forces into the reformed Roman Catholic Church.

Either this or we await newer more fatal catastrophes.

In the wake of the advent of less dramatic circumstances, we must never underestimate the power of The Church to forgive and to readmit those who have sincerely distanced themselves from the evident current of mainstream disobedience and disregard for what The Roman Catholic Faith has always consistently taught.

sam said...

When I read what B. Fellay has said, two things come up:

-In relation to the Novus Ordo. The SSPX, would be more comfortable with it, if some of the parts in it that lead to grave danger are corrected. But B. Fellay, doubts that this will happen, because many Bishops still don't accept to translate the Latin of "for many" into their vernacular languages.

-In relation to the VII. The SSPX, would be more comfortable with it, if some of the parts in it that lead to grave danger are clarified.

In both instances, B. Fellay says that subtle changes can be done by the Church, while saving face, and these positive changes would likely bring the SSPX back into the Church. But he believes that before worrying about the SSPX, the Church should make these changes for its own sake.

Prof X said...

Ultimately we shall all answer to God for our actions.
In this era of crisis within the Church, I am far more comfortable offering as a defense: "I stood with Peter" than "I knew better than Christ's Vicar and so I did my own thing."

Of course , "just following orders" does not work in all situations. There are clear violations of the natural law, clear evils, that one can ever accede to.

But this is not out situation. None of the post Vatican II popes has ever demanded sin. Instead, they have interpreted tradition and scripture differently than we have. They have made prudential judgments that seem incredibly unwise. But none of that releases us from our obligation to follow the Supreme Pontiff.

Bizlep said...

Hummm... I think the Holly Father already made a gift to the Society. I ignore the proceedings, but if the Pope is resigning, so his the entire Curia with him, no?
If that is true, Pope Benedit XVI just saved or rescued the Society from the hands and 'ultimatum' of D. Muller. Am I wrong?

Anonymous said...

SSPX why not give the Holy Father a departing gift of your full reconciliation with the Church ?

JWDT said...

Based upon the last week's announcements and speeches by Our Pontiff, one thing is very clear to me!

The Church is at War with itself, with no side in a clear position to win!
The reigning Pontiff has admitted this much...yet we still quibble if one group is "in the Church" or "out". Many claim adherence to the See of Peter, which one, the one of today or the previous? My point is this...for those who claim the FSSPX is outside the Church, which Church? The ever changing doctrine of the current magisterium where one week ecumenism and false religions have salvation or the next week where homosexual unions should be considered a marriage..these are but a few examples that continue to perplex most attendees at FSSPX chapels. Just my two cents..


ttaM said...

But has anyone heard the story of three little pigs? Matt, anyone?

Matt for Pope said...

This reminds me of the story of two tomatoes that crossed a road!

Benedict Carter said...

Tom and other anti-SSPXers should recall the story of the Englishman, Chinaman and German shipwrecked on a remote island. The Englishman (naturally!) took charge and ordered the German to collect firewood and the Chinaman to look for supplies. The German returns, to the minute, with his wood, but the Chinese doesn't come back at all. They go looking for him when he jumps out from behind a bush and shouts "Supplies!"

The connection this story has with Vatican II, Bishop Fellay and the modern liturgy is obvious I would have thought.

No need for scorpions or frogs.

Seraph said...

As long as Mass attendance in the United States, Mexico, Central and South America remains in the 10 to 25 percent range, plenty of Catholics will fill the pews each Sunday.

Tom,
10-25% is an abomination. It is nowhere close to an even simple majority of 50%+1. How can Catholics fill the pews when the vast overwhelming majority are them are not even there to fill the pews? 75% of Catholics are missing. The pews are not being filled. Parishes are closing all over this country. Diocese after diocese are going to close about half of their parishes in the next couple of years and are clustering them all over the place.

James Kohn said...

@Being:

"Because slowly (very slowly) the Church shall shed of its modernist debris thanks to the vibrant young, traditional faithful INSIDE the Church."

It seems to me that this would solve the problem like Felley said, and they would then come back. Im not an apologist for them but this makes sense both ways
+JMJ+

Ann said...

Well said, LeonG!

Uncle Claibourne said...

Bizlep, while it's true that the heads of curial ddepartments lose their office upon the end of the current papacy, the practice over the past few pontificates has been for the new Pope to immediately re-appoint all of them.

It will be interesting to see if the same happens this time, especially with all the talk about significant change needing to be made in the wake of Vatileaks. If our new Holy Father takes his time in this regard, I think we'd have a genuine indication that serious change is in the offing.

On another note.... Thank you for posting the translation, New Catholic. Bishop Fellay chooses his words carefully, and it's always gratifying to see that he does put things in proper proportion and perspective. I wish he could be elected. Perhaps the Holy Father will name him a cardinal "in pectore" and have it announced at the conclave? Oh well, I can always hope. :)

Fred said...

Rorate Caeli reported the other day: "Rorate can independently confirm the report --hinted at just now in Le Forum Catholique -- that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has sent a letter with a final offer to the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX / SSPX): resume the dialogue with the Holy See by February 22, or else the Holy See will make an offer of reconciliation and full communion to individual SSPX priests."

Why is this not seen as the Pope's last gesture of unity?

Paul Haley said...

Unbelievable- the premise that it is the FSSPX that is the culprit in this ongoing drama within the Vatican. Those who are Catholic from day one and who profess all that the Church has proclaimed from Divine revelation - they are not the problem! They will continue to worship God in the manner instilled in them as children and it matters little who the pope is at the time.

BenedictXVI has made his choice.
Now it is up to Almighty God to reveal His plan for the Church going forward. Let us hope and pray that His Will may be discerned and followed in the next conclave.

MBlanton said...

To Jonvilas: You have misunderstood me. Please re read my post. What you see as pride is really my zeal to protect what is tradition. To understand the SSPX one simply needs to know this: I must refuse to obey my spiritual Father who is leading me to endanger my faith just as I would refuse my earthly Father who would lead me to error or commit a crime. Is he still my Father? Of course, that fact does not change.

A long time ago St. Paul said to St. Peter that he was "Not walking according to the truth of the Gospel" (Gal. 2:14). St. Paul encouraged the faithful not to obey him, St. Paul, if he happened to preach any other gospel than the Gospel that he had already taught them (Gal. 1:8).

The many good folks here on this blog make the grave error of thinking the Pope is infallible in all things, even in his 'human' opinions. Please study what the Church teaches on the Magisterium and infallibility.

The good Archbishop Lefebvre said: 'The principles governing obedience are known and are so in conformity with sane reason and common sense that one is driven to wonder how intelligent persons can make a statement like, "They prefer to be mistaken with the pope, than to be with the truth against the pope."

Jason C. said...

None of the post Vatican II popes has ever demanded sin. Instead, they have interpreted tradition and scripture differently than we have. They have made prudential judgments that seem incredibly unwise. But none of that releases us from our obligation to follow the Supreme Pontiff.

Precisely, Prof X. I would take it even a step further and say that it appears they have interpreted traditions and scripture differently than we have. Most of the armchair cardinals and combox-periti commenting on this board and elsewhere online aren't equipped to decide. Our faith of late has spawned a peculiar type of claim to expertise: but just going to Mass, a little lectio divina, praying the Rosary, knowing your catechism, etc.--while all valuable aids--don't make one competent to judge every dispute of our faith to the point where one can decide either that one is breaking from Peter ("I'm joining the SSPX") or that Peter has broken from one ("I'm SSPX and the Church left me!").

Those are momentous decisions. How men in good conscience can make the decision to leave or to remain apart from Peter--even while I am personally persuaded of a good many of the Society's points--and drag their children and wives along into ????.... God, help us.

Jason C. said...

Paul Haley: Those who are Catholic from day one and who profess all that the Church has proclaimed from Divine revelation - they [FSSPX] are not the problem! They will continue to worship God in the manner instilled in them as children and it matters little who the pope is at the time.

Mr Haley your remarks indulge in question-begging. Who decides who is "Catholic" and what the Church "has proclaimed from Divine revelation," if not the Catholic Church?

Could it not be the case that you have misunderstood (either in substantive content or as to that principle's application and scope of application) either the pre-conciliar statements or the conciliar statements that you find to be in contradiction?

Adherents of the Society do this all the time when wondering aloud about the effects of their pronouncements of conciliar error, such as whether our understanding of the Catholic Church's physical reality is perhaps not nuanced enough to encompass the present sorry state of Rome, frequently hearkening to "Eternal Rome"? Why not instead--rather than reappraising Our Lord's foundation of His Church upon a Rock ('maybe the Rock is invisible except in my little chapel?')--reappraise your understanding of 19th century or conciliar teachings that you believe to be in conflict?

All the Holy Father asks of us is that we attempt to read or understand harmoniously what we find to be in conflict, which seems to be a basic principle of charity. If you cannot so harmonize them, perhaps try harder or be confident simply to have faith in Christ's promise to Peter and that there does exist "the evidence of things not seen," but that it is not to be seen by you? There are many men wiser than us who could not do it, and said and wrote as much for their entire career, and yet remained in good standing within the Catholic fold (Davies, Amerio, von Hildebrand, etc.). Why do you not do the same?

Drew said...

What if Turkson becomes the new Pope...do you think he will care much about the SSPX? I don't think so. He will talk to the mediat himself and seek the limelight 24/7!!!

Bob said...

I find it interesting that the story "A Catholic Guy" wrote in reference to the SSPX involves faith in God, whereas the pro-SSPXs invoke fables that never deal with faith, just animals without souls.

Bill said...

Tom, you said:

The "manufacture" of "banal" Liturgy is one thing...the insistence that said Liturgy is "evil" is another thing...tremendously different.

Can you flesh this out?

According to St Thomas, evil is the lack of a good which should be present. Are you saying that a banal liturgy does not lack a good which should be present? Or that St Thomas is mistaken in his definition of evil?

JB said...



Can someone advise me what the hermeneutic of continuity is for this:

"The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism, in respect of the sacred liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded. This notwithstanding, the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with prevailing laws and rubrics, deserve severe reproof. It has pained Us grievously to note, Venerable Brethren, that such innovations are actually being introduced, not merely in minor details but in matters of major importance as well. We instance, in point of fact, those who make use of the vernacular in the celebration of the august eucharistic sacrifice; those who transfer certain feast-days - which have been appointed and established after mature deliberation - to other dates; those, finally, who delete from the prayerbooks approved for public use the sacred texts of the Old Testament, deeming them little suited and inopportune for modern times."

--Mediatior Dei, 1947

Francis said...

"Tom said...
Actually, Pope Benedict XVI has identified "faults" in regard to Vatican II. But he has not bowed to the SSPX's claim that the Council contains errors".
What faults did he "identify"?
So you don't think that parts of Lumen Gentium, Dignitatis humanae Nostra Aetate and other conciliar documents went against the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church when it comes to the Mass, Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus, collegiality and "religious liberty"?
Tom, I will never understand the neo-Catholic mind, and I hope that I never will.



If She bowed to such insanity, the Eastern Orthodox, Protestants and every religion, along with the secular world, would dance in the streets with great joy as they denounced the Catholic Church as history's greatest fraud".

Tom, where have you been for the last one thousand years??
These people already believe that.

Andrew said...

Bishop Fellay played poker and lost. Pope Benedict practically gave the SSPX everything they have claimed to want over the years. They blew it. I doubt the next Pope will want to begin his Papacy dealing with the SSPX and all the drama they bring(much of it created by themselves). I think extending a hand to individual priests is the best option. Those SSPX bishops and their constant games(and their continued anti-semetic comments) are toxic.

FaithfultoGod said...

My hunch is that over the next few years the new Pope will find an ever deteriorating environment. He will seek out the faithful Catholics that offer sound judgement and historical perspective. Less important, I believe, will be the Vat. II modernist issues as the Church will have to adjust to authentic belief or perish.

My hope is that we will move back toward the "baseline" of tradition.

Jason C. said...

Can someone advise me what the hermeneutic of continuity is for this:

"The Church is without question a living organism, and as an organism, in respect of the sacred liturgy also, she grows, matures, develops, adapts and accommodates herself to temporal needs and circumstances, provided only that the integrity of her doctrine be safeguarded. This notwithstanding, the temerity and daring of those who introduce novel liturgical practices, or call for the revival of obsolete rites out of harmony with prevailing laws and rubrics, deserve severe reproof. It has pained Us grievously to note, Venerable Brethren, that such innovations are actually being introduced, not merely in minor details but in matters of major importance as well. We instance, in point of fact, those who make use of the vernacular in the celebration of the august eucharistic sacrifice; those who transfer certain feast-days - which have been appointed and established after mature deliberation - to other dates; those, finally, who delete from the prayerbooks approved for public use the sacred texts of the Old Testament, deeming them little suited and inopportune for modern times."

--Mediatior Dei, 1947


Proof-texters gonna proof-text, but people on this site will simply point out the words in bold to you. What if the "prevailing law and rubrics" no longer prevail, but "grow[], mature[], develop[], adapt[] and accommodate[] ... to temporal needs and circumstances," and those former novelties or revivals are now lawful and rubrical? In short, that paragraph says 'don't break the law,' which is still the law, i.e., in continuity with, the law post-VII.

See! This hermeneutics stuff is easy!

Jay Lee Neal said...

The Holy Father has done all that he could to bring the SSPX back into the fold. The SSPX has done all it could to stay mired in darkness visible. Time, and chances have run out. Let justice now be exacted. Bring on the SSPX smackdown.

LeonG said...

Dear Andrew, it is about time you did some more informative and prolonged reading on this subject with a better appreciation for recent ecclesiastical history; at least since the mid-1960s - you are evidently out of your depth.

Who ever is the papal successor will have to deal with all matters related to the church and its current prolonged crisis. Like it or not The Society is more than significant enough to remain at the focal point of matters concerning Sacred Tradition.

JB said...



Ah I see, Jason. You know if it were that easy, there'd probably be no need for a "hermeneutic" of continuity would there? It is only serious ruptures that call for hermeneutics.

LeonG said...

From where do some of these comments emanate? the anti-SSPX ones are often based on pure unadulterated ignorance or extreme dislike of The Confraternity.
Thankfully, there are those even in the post-conciliar church who can understand that the time is well past for actually dealing with many of the problems intimated over many years by those such as The SSPX.

Reductionism, as its mentality, never was a very reliable judge of important issues such as the current ecclesiastical crisis. If people here and elsewhere imagine that the church is going to recover her fortunes by alienating or ignoring significant Traditional Catholic groups they will be surprised for sure. The Roman Catholic Church is more just than that. It has forgotten how to be just in these rather confusing times.

The Society is by no means going to be sidelined and forgotten. This is mere wishful-thinking or sheer lack of discernment by the antipathetic or the misinformed.

Forever Faithful said...



Thank you, LeonG, for your comments.

It is sometimes so sad to come here day after day and see so much SSPX-bashing from a few posters parading around like peacocks who speak with a tone of great knowledge and authority, but who very obviously have not taken time to really even study or try to understand Abp Lefebvre or the SSPX, who are truly servants of the Pope (and all the popes of the last 2000 years) and of the Church (and all the Church of the last 2000 years), whose priests, Sisters, and Brothers humbly spend themselves tirelessly for the salvation of souls!

Tom said...

Tom said...As long as Mass attendance in the United States, Mexico, Central and South America remains in the 10 to 25 percent range, plenty of Catholics will fill the pews each Sunday.

*******Seraph said..."Tom, 10-25% is an abomination."

I know. But that is where we're headed. As you know, we in the single digits in parts of Europe.

Elsewhere in Europe, the situation isn't much better than that. As Pope Benedict XVI said, in vast areas of the world, the Catholic Religion is in danger of virtual extinction.
*******

*******Seraph said..."It is nowhere close to an even simple majority of 50%+1. How can Catholics fill the pews when the vast overwhelming majority are them are not even there to fill the pews? 75% of Catholics are missing."

As long as a church is filled, the modernists will insist that said parish is vibrant.

Example: In the Diocese of Dallas, at best, 20 percent (almost certainly below that) of the Faithful assist each Sunday at Mass attendance.

But 20 percent will suffice for the modernists to claim that each Mass is packed (and it is).
*************

Seraph said..."The pews are not being filled. Parishes are closing all over this country.

"Diocese after diocese are going to close about half of their parishes in the next couple of years and are clustering them all over the place."

Right.

Diocese "X" has 50 parishes. Mass attendance is awful in Diocese "X" and they are unable to support 50 parishes. Therefore, Diocese "X" closes 25 parishes. Now, they can fill 25 parishes. The diocese can then pretend that the Faith is vibrant there as their parishes are packed each Sunday.

It is a game...and with more than one-billion Catholics on earth, our Churchmen can play the game for a long, long time.

It is akin to Orson Welles' line in the movie Citizen Kane. Welles is a multimillionaire who owns a newspaper that loses $1,000,000per year.

We informed as to the tremendous amount of money that he has lost each year, Orson Welles' character replied:

"You're right, Mr. Thatcher. I did lose a million dollars last year; I expect to lose a million dollars this year; I expect to lose a million dollars next year.

"You know, Mr. Thatcher, at the rate of a million dollars a year, I'll have to close this place in...60 years!"

With more than one-billion Catholics at their disposal, the modernists can play their destructive games for a long...long...long time.

Tom

Bob Bryan said...

A Pope is after all a human being. He is also entitled to a peaceful life. Just because Benedict XVI is quitting his position does not mean that we should be skeptical about his spirituality and intentions. This is time for us to pray for his good health and well-being.

Gratias said...

Reading these comments makes me think that Bp. Fellay is more Catholic than the Pope.

Common Sense said...

My Lord,

We agree with you 100%. In the meantime we must continue to combat the revolution, so that the hearts and minds of Catholics may be restored. May our Divine Lord bless your fruitful and difficult apostolic work.

Freddie said...

What a parting gift to the Holy Father, the reconciliation of the SSPX to the Holy See
Freddie

Paul Haley said...

From DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION
ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965

Chapter One, para 4

The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13).

Nat Ons said...

"SSPX why not give the Holy Father a departing gift of your full reconciliation with the Church?"


Is this not nearer the Catholic Truth of this sad parting?


We can hope .. and pray .. that the new pope spend as much time and effort (and give as much consideration) to reconciling the SSPX to himself and thus the church catholic at large - as did the still awesome Benedict XVI.


Can the Society really expect to dangle a third Holy Father along?


(I suspect it will; until it has the reigning pontiff appeal on bended knee for it to save him .. or it leaders/ members who truly do desire communion with God's beloved called to be saints at Rome just go for it; the remnants of the lWe Are Church: trad-fest-brigade' seek humble admission to Sede Vacante or SSPV communion, and form yet another Old Catholic Church).

poeta said...

May I suggest that anyone who insists upon using the word "smackdown" consider posting on a pro-wrestling forum instead? Thank you.

Rick DeLano said...

"As far as Vatican II is concerned, just like for the Mass, we believe that it is necessary to clarify and correct a certain number of points that are either erroneous or lead to error."

What could possibly be objectionable about that?

Meanwhile, the drearily predictable rehabilitation of Cardinal Mahony commences today, on the front page of the Los Angeles Slimes.

Now that the Slimes has found a way to make it the Vatican's fault, the Cardinal can be recast in his new role as virtuous clamorer for reform.

May I say that the hysterical notion that the SSPX is, somehow, responsible for the devastation of the vineyard is........

Insane.