Rorate Caeli

Reset to 1978 - and a final point


"Reading the Papal Tea Leaves" - an interesting article by George Neumayr, whose conclusion is, "Francis’s papacy may not so much move the Church into the future as back to the recent past, circa 1970."

It is a good article, except for one point. He writes, "Reports on his compliance with Benedict’s authorization of wider use of the Traditional Latin Mass are conflicting, but it is safe to say that he was less than thrilled by it."

There are no conflicting reports on this, Mr. Neumayr. There are people who used one mainstream media article published in 2007 to spread misinformation or disinformation about the fact, as we explained in details here. Summing it up: in 2007, when Summorum Pontificum was issued, the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires complied with... Ecclesia Dei; however, it was a once-a-month hybrid mass, with a chaplain handpicked by the then-Archbishop, a chaplain who, among other things, imposed the readings of the 1970 lectionary (the ABC book) and other alterations - a mass that was naturally rejected by the faithful, and finally discontinued. Other isolated priests who tried to implement Summorum on their own were told to stop. And the current situation, unheard-of in most of the largest dioceses of South America, is of a diocese with not a single Traditional Latin Mass celebrated by a diocesan priest. The closest diocesan TLM in the city of Buenos Aires is available if one crosses the line out of the city proper into a neighboring diocese.

_________________________________

Y los libres del mundo responden...

One only has to search "Bergoglio" or "Argentina" in our archives to know how much and how often we have covered the Church in Argentina. As early as 2006, our first full year, we were discussing how the Argentine Episcopate, led by then-Cardinal Bergoglio, got into a mighty struggle against the Holy See on the subject of the appointment of new bishops - the Holy See favoring more "conservative" candidates, the Episcopal Conference the more "liberal" ones. One can gather our opinion of then-Cardinal Bergoglio from that post, it is a stable and well-researched opinion, something altogether different than a spur of the moment. 

Those who first heard the name "Bergoglio" from the mouth of Cardinal Protodeacon Tauran have no idea what they are talking about: we stand by all our posts on the matter, including the dozens of posts on the Argentine Church, led by then-Cardinal Bergoglio. Even John Allen Jr. is finding out things about the then-Cardinal (like his apparent support for same-sex "civil unions" as an alternative to same-sex "marriage") by reading The New York Times in March 2013!... And, of course, as we mentioned above, when prompted to respond regarding our most disputed assertion - that the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires had never been friendly to the Traditional Mass under the then-Cardinal, that only imitations of it were ever made available by the Archdiocese, and that it became a Summorum-free zone under his watch -, we proved it mightily.

The Bergoglian pontificate, and the considerable changes it will bring, will not catch us by surprise - nor our more attentive readers: we are glad to oblige, and to have "read the tea leaves" avant la lettre, even while reminding all that "past performance does not necessarily indicate future results"... We are praying for His Holiness, always.

[This post is also a warning to critics that we do not regret anything, and that they will not push us into silence. But there are things that are much more important than this ideological battle some have been fighting  but in which we refuse to engage: our own souls, our loved ones, the upcoming Holy Week... All these things take precedence... As our older readers know, this blog has always been as much about devotional material and support for Traditional communities and events as about current affairs: now that the papal succession is over, we can finally return to a more devotional side - there are, after all, 2012 years of prior Church life to report! We really do not need to speak all the time: events will speak for themselves. More about this in a future editorial note.]

102 comments:

Gratus said...

Dear New Catholic, with a prayer for your mother, thank you so much for returning to your computer at this time. Traditional Catholics feel so abandoned in these days, it is so good to read you again! Do not underestimate your importance in giving support and direction to us.You are a rock in the raging seas. With a further prayer for your dear mother, and for you!

Robbie said...

I just read the George Neumayr piece and I can't think of anything more disheartening. Given what he wrote and the views that seem to influence Francis, it's not hard to imagine him consigning the Latin Mass to the dustbin again.

I know Benedict did what he thought was best, but Popes shouldn't resign. In the most crass political way, his opponents in the College of Cardinals have set about to essentially rebuke him and his eight year Papacy.

I believe in the positive power of prayer, but there are very strong forces working against the Traditional cause. I'm very sadden by the news we continue to discover.

Rhetor said...

Thank you for championing this cause and for providing such solid reasons for what you assert.

How can I contribute to the support of your web site?

New Catholic said...

Adeodatus, you can run away from us, but you will not be able to run away from what the future will bring.

Best regards,

NC

Don M said...

Thank you for this article.
I have a concern: Please forgive my mis-steps if/when I make them.

I love my Holy Catholic Church. I always consider Her The Bride of Christ.
I like to think I am, in the Church Militant, and can be one of Her Knights.{Jesus Mercy}
I am worried that I am being asked not to Champion Her as The Bride of Christ. I am not to proclaim Her Divine Right to be Called the ONE TRUE CHURCH there-go THE ONE TRUE FAITH.
I am asked to practice christian virtue, without due to the Bride of Christ. The Very Church Jesus instituted to give us the Graces that flow from the Cross.
I fear that what will make our Holy Father Pope Francis loved,by the secular world, and Catholics alike; is an outward expression,of removing himself from all visable things, that Declare Her to be the ONE and Only Bride of Christ.
I have had many conversations with practicing Catholics that do not believe the Catholic Church to be the Bride Of Christ. To them She is just one of many. This is a learned thing.
I am troubled .
Praying

Eugene said...

Half of the appointees to the College of Cardinals were elevated by Benedict. Let's not fall all over ourselves thinking how traditional Benedict was. Let's objectively look at his appointments. With very few exceptions, there were disastrous, along the "same old, same old" lines. Some hermeneutic of continuity.

Ted Mayfield said...

This is one of the most truly Catholic posts you have published. Catholics do not need to prefer the pope over the truth. Whoever thinks respect for the pope is more important than respect for the truth is not Catholic.

Image vs. reality: Pope Francis is praised by the media of the world as a wonderfully tolerant man, but by the evidence you have offered, it seems he is mainly tolerant only of liberalism. When it comes to the Tridentine Mass we discover a despotic intolerance.

Let us pray for this pope, and at the same time, let us not relax our vigilance, our powers of reason, or our fidelity to the truth of the Gospel of Our Lord.

Eugene said...

What will Father Z. and his Brick by Brick brigade be saying now? So much for the "Marshall Plan" and the "Benedictine Counterrevolution".

Dante said...

Francis is God's answer to Benedict's "abdication."

#CantoIII

NIANTIC said...

My council is that we Traditionalists keep our powder dry. Yes, there seem to be valid reasons for disquiet and I do not discount them. To reduce liturgical celebrations once again to the banal and mundane, which have proven disasterous for the Faith, would be a serious sin. God deserves, nay demands, the very best from His people.

Besides, as a lady named Ann wrote in a comment a few days ago on Fr.Z's blog: "POOR PEOPLE NEED TO GO TO HEAVEN ON SUNDAY FOR A TASTE OF THE RESURRECTION, IN CONTRAST WITH THEIR DAILY DEATH ON THE CROSS OF LIFE". Beautifully said. And by "poor" I include ALL Catholics.

It is far too early to know exactly if, how, or when Pope Francis will do anything at all, pro or con, regarding the True Mass. He may very well tolerate it as he now is the Shepherd of the entire Church and there may well be more than one million faithful attending the True Mass exclusively.

Time will tell. We must pray for the Pope, for the Church, and for the True Mass and bishops and priests who offer it.

At this early stage I see no reason for us to hunker down and let the torpedoes fly. Pax Christi.

TheNewCristero said...

Methinks the "Brick By Brick" crowd are going to close their eyes to the current Holy Father's 'Make-the Nat'l-Catholic-Reporter-crowd-shout-with-glee' attitudes/policies and focus on the tiniest glimmers of the so-called hermeneutics of continuity.

Would any of you brick-by-brick folks like a cup of cognitive dissonance??? Pope Francis is brewing up alot...just for you.

Prof. Basto said...

Thank you.

There are those who are seeing the signs but prefer to live in denial of the reality than to admit that we have one heterodox Pope.

The liturgical Positivists have already caved and will always cave.

And there are those who are not Catholics but Papists, who change their opinions based on the political atmosphere of each pontificate, as well as those who even in the greatest calamities like to suppose the positive will of the Holy Spirit.

We need to stand with Catholic Truth and with Catholic Liturgy.

And to counter the ceremonial positivism, I yesterday re-watched the Orthodox Divine Liturgy celebrated by Patriarch Bartholomew I in the presence of Pope Benedict XVI. Everybody should listen to that Sermon again.

Eugene said...

I'm certainly glad the Society of St. Pius X hasn't fallen for the modernist trap. This long Catholic winter will continue for a long, long time, very much like the Aryan heresy.

Shane said...

From the Irish Independent, 17th October, 2003

James L. said...

Father Gruner and Chris Ferrara: neither one could be accused of being a "Brick-by-Brick" type (nor a neo-Catholic papal positivist).

http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/oc/perspective662.asp

Robbie said...

If you read Father Z's most recent thoughts, I think he's beginning to feel a sense of frustration with Francis. His post today on the Pope's decision to hold Holy Thursday Mass in a prison didn't seem to sit well with him. In fact, he all but said he was glad he decided not to stay longer in Rome once he learned of the choice.

Father Z made a point I've thought myself over the last few days. The more Pope Francis makes an attempt to break with tradition, the more he makes it look like it's all about him. I know Francis isn't wrapped up in himself, but still.

Francis in Ma said...

I read in the secular media that Bergoglio just congratulated the new "archbishop" of Canterbury (who was "enthroned" by a female "priestess") today. Yeah, the other conciliar popes recognized this pseudo "archbishop" also, but I expect Bergoglio to take it even further than the other conciliar popes did. If that wasn't sickening enough he will celebrate Holy Thursday Mass in a youth prison in Rome and not at St. Peter's or at St John Lateran. Bergoglio is defintely bad news for traditional and orthodox Catholicism.

Benedict Carter said...

Good article, and, given recent upsetting threads, a timely reminder to all of us that this blog is at least as much about devotional matters and about bringing the riches of the Church's 2,000 years of spirituality to its readers as it is about "current affairs".

Uncle Claibourne said...

Fr. Z and a few "Brick by Brick Bund" members (someone else here used that term, and I love it!) are starting to show some doubt. Read his recent comments on the Holy Father's plans for Holy Thursday.

At the same time, his combox is also filled to the brim with comments from those who would dutifully walk off the edge of a cliff if the Pope told them to.

Dr. von Hildebrand, in "The Devastated Vineyard," correctly pointed out one of the biggest faults of the pre-Vatican II Church: an extreme overemphasis on authority and obedience, resulting in an immature clergy and laity who were unable to raise questions and concerns when they truly needed to.

This is one of the great ironies of the Church. The things that needed fixing before Vatican II, haven't been; the things that were valuable and precious, on the other hand, have been destroyed.

Thankful said...

God bless you, New Catholic! You do not know what a comfort your blog is to us like-minded in the fight for the faith! Never give up that fight.

friedrich said...

HIS Peace unto you all, i'm first time writing. My name is friedrich. i watch your precious posts since a few weeks. i'm from germany born not-catholic. But by our Lord's Grace i was teached and preached to have love to all Saints. In our old-tradition-bible-hours sometimes i did pray for our brothers and sisters in the catholic 'part' of 'That Very Church'... Therefore i like to greet you and encourage you to watch and pray by His Grace! I like the word Don M said "The Very Church Jesus instituted to give us the Graces that flow from the Cross..."
The main reason why i just write to this article... I was at least amazed ... yes i marveled when i saw the the Headline "Reset to 1978 - an a final point" ... Wow ... just recently i came across that year 1978 ... i remember vividly : (btw. i was then 26 :) Do you remember 1978 ...There was much 'progress' Israel-Egypt Peace Camp David etc. BUT 1978 was also that "Year of Three Popes"...!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_of_Three_Popes

Therefore let's pray and watch
greetings friedrich

susan said...

Thank you for your good, fair, and accurate reporting. Don't let the bullies get you down.

Benedict Carter said...

From Mundabor's blog:

"Holy Thursday Mass is to be removed from his traditional location of San Giovanni in Laterano, and to be celebrated in a youth detention centre instead.

A rupture with a consolidated tradition smacking, once again, of Seventies on steroids. What I personally find questionable here is not the decision to celebrate Mass in a youth detention centre, but to deliberately break with tradition and with the solemnity rightly associated with the Holy Thursday Mass."

Scotty said...

Bergoglio will continue to confuse the faithful though his highly publicized upcoming "Holy Thursday" Mass in a Roman prison.

The Pope offering a Triduum Mass in a prison will send the completely wrong message to the faithful. Absolutely no one will look upon that Holy Mass as the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary nor recall the institution of the sacred Priesthood. Instead, the novel rubric of washing feet - which itself has no sacramental value - will become the focal point of the MOST HOLY SACRIFICE of the Mass.

People will "oohhh" and "ahhh" over the photos of Pope Francis washing and kissing feet and forget about it days later. But who would forget Pope Francis, adorned in the vestments appropriate to His Holiness' stature, offering the Unblemished Lamb in the splendor of the Tridentine Mass at the Altar of St. Peter's, surrounded by art inspired by God himself and accompanied by the magnificent chants of Maundy Thursday?

The poor and imprisoned will be with us always. Pope Francis could offer the Most Holy Sacrifice at any prison during the Easter Octave (or better during Lent or Advent - the season of repentance being most appropriate for a congregation of criminals). The Paschal Triduum is too important to the Church for the Pope to experiment with it for his own personal agenda.

Matt said...

Dante said, "Francis is God's answer to Benedict's '"abdication.'"

...Or God's chastisement!

Matt said...

Eugene said, "What will Father Z. and his Brick by Brick brigade be saying now? So much for the 'Marshall Plan' and the 'Benedictine Counterrevolution.'"

Well, brick by brick they/we were hopeful of positive change. If your contractor bails on you and your project, is that a ha-ha on you? Not sure of the tone of your comment.

Judge Douglass Bartley said...

Pope Francis, the protean Pope, spoke of being ‘dazzled’ by girl, possible change of celibacy rule
See http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/20/17386717-pope-francis-spoke-of-being-dazzled-by-girl-possible-change-of-celibacy-rule#star6

Does his willingness to change the rule of celibacy and his support of homosexual civil unions mean that priests could have civil unions with other priests?

Normally we could ask for a recount, but the ballots I believe are burned.

There should be another immediate conclave.

Or should he be relegated to Avignon?

Matt said...

Robbie said, "I know Francis isn't wrapped up in himself..."

How would know that, Robbie?

If the Holy Father is doing what he is doing ignorant of the perception he's creating, then so be it, but we pray those around him are advising him otherwise. Should he continue thus, yes, it is all about himself. Christ said by their fruits ye shall know them.

Default Win said...

I wonder..will the SSPX now create a Romanus Coetibus for traditional priests and seminarians? Will their Benedictines agree to take Clear Creek in? Will their Franciscans agree to take in the FFI? Will Fr. Z. become a new SSPX Bishop?

Oh my. The possibilities are endless....

I fear we may all shortly be refugees joining the pilgrimage for "Eternal" Rome. Or...waiting for the old V2 guard to pass on to their assured reward (hell being empty and all). And let's face it...their seminaries - once you subtract traditional-bent seminarians - are empty.

So basically in another 20, 25 years the "enhanced" SSPX will basically be able to just stroll in and take it all over. Who will the Swiss Guards believe anyway? A bunch of hippies in khakis prancing around worshipping Gaia? Or men in Cassocks and (gasp!) silk!

Your bases (will) belong to us!

Matt said...

Uncle Claibourne said, "
This is one of the great ironies of the Church. The things that needed fixing before Vatican II, haven't been; the things that were valuable and precious, on the other hand, have been destroyed."


So, in short, Uncle, yes, the Church remains broken, sadly. just like typical liberals. In order to eliminate debt, they create more debt by spending more and force others to pay for the greater spending, thus retaining the same debt and putting everyone else in debt also. Within the Church or without, same thing.

Matt said...

Judge Douglass Bartley said, "Does his willingness to change the rule of celibacy and his support of homosexual civil unions mean that priests could have civil unions with other priests?"

Ok, EW, but, hey. Result of unintended (or could very well be INTENDED) consequences. Never say never with liberals. A lesson needing to be learned by everyone.

Just as eliminating one man, one woman as the basis of marriage, then ultimately there is no limit to what can be argued for relationships. By what standard then does one use to argue against more than two people constituting a relationship? There is none. The argument has been made moot, or may be soon if the the Supreme Court leans left.

There is a group out there (I read it online) waiting to petition the Court for exactly this and another group to challenge the age of consent.

Sodom and Gomorrah II, here it comes!!

Donal said...

Does anyone else have the sense of something rotten having taken place during the conclave? It seems to me that the losing bloc at the 2005 conclave simply was lying in wait this entire time. As if the cardinal-electors knew exactly what they were going to do beforehand; that they couldn't be bothered with prayer, reflection, the guidance of the Holy Ghost. It was about identity politics. I was wondering what others thought about this and if it has been leaked who the number 2 man was this time around. Regardless, prayers for Papa Francesco, and for the Church of our Fathers.

Adfero said...

Thanks anon to you and your husband reading but let's not say anything negative about other truly traditional sites.

Felix said...

With prayers for your dear one, I wish to register my appreciation for your posts in Rorate Caeli concerning the present incumbent in the petrine office. What has made me a loyal reader of this blog is its comprehension that the interpretation of Vatican Council II hinges on factors that have faced the Church at least since the 18th century revolutions.

We must be ever aware that the cataclysm that brought forth that ill-fated Council was not just the work of John XXIII. Its liberal interpretation is coeval with the modern era. Ultramontanism had seemed a cure for modernist sickness, since the Roman Pontiff beyond the Pyrenees controlled episcopal appointments. But then the papacy itself was gradually overtaken by liberalism, the inception of which we see in the reign of Pius XII, his liturgical innovations & above all his episcopal appointments. Many of these bore fruit at Vatican Council II. Witness the proclamation of the Pius' episcopal appointee Suenens that Vatican II was the Church's own French Revolution. Benedict XVI in his 2005 address to the Curia assured us that the French Revolution wasn't in itself bad, but merely badly implemented. As evidence, the Pope emeritus pointed to the American Revolution whose chief leader Washington is portrayed in the Capitol building dressed in the masonic apron made for him by the wife of deLafayette.

Since it is impossible for minds not to be affected by the psychic residues of the spiritual illnesses liberalism brought in its wake, Rorate Caeli especially in the postings by New Catholic, has done an outstanding job of detailing the symptoms of the liberalism as well as indicating traditional spiritual cures for its pernicious disease.

Eugene said...

It's the Society of St. Pius X chapel and the Eastern Rite for me going forward. I can't bring myself to attend the Novus Ordo Mess.

Cruise the Groove. said...

Brick by Brick.

AndrewRusso said...

Does anyone share my eerie sense of a Pope/Antipope situation since Bergoglio appeared on the loggia on that dark, spooky, rainy night with the less-than-joyous proclamation from Cardinal Tauran. I found myself profoundly uncomfortable with this scene compared to 2005 when under the bright sun a joyous Cardinal Medina proclaimed "Ratzinger" and Benedict appeared himself looking full of joy in his full papal regalia. Now we have two living Popes residing almost side-by-side with Benedict continuing to use his Papal name, attired in his white cassock, and being addressed as His Holiness. Doesn't this make you think?

Gabriel said...

@Uncle Claibourne

"This is one of the great ironies of the Church. The things that needed fixing before Vatican II, haven't been; the things that were valuable and precious, on the other hand, have been destroyed."

Indeed, the thing that most needed fixing before the Council (the very same "extreme overemphasis on authority and obedience" which you note) proved to be the single most potent weapon in the hands of those who would destroy everything that didn't.

RogerThat said...

http://www.arzbaires.org.ar/inicio/homilias.html

Common Sense said...

The next few months are going to reveal more H.H. Francis mindset. In the meantime we keep praying for him and attend our duty of state as usual.Our future is in our young people.There is never ending duties within family circle.Let's show our children love and affection, teach them sense of duty towards God, neibourgh and themselves The Lord God will look after us. What a blessing to have a good family! Those of us, who live this blessing , fully understand how crucial it is for preservation of tradition, because no amount of talk can substitute the action! Of course,in the meantime our fight goes on.

mundabor said...

Prayers for you and your mother, NC.
Be assured sound Catholics understand the truth when they read it, and there are many of them.

Mundabor

Ted said...

While many still wear rose color glasses, the tide appears to be turning toward reality. Check out Fr. Z's two most recent columns and this piece:

http://catholicexchange.com/a-new-pontificate-dawning/

If we have been lax with our prayers, it's time to fix that.

scary goat said...

To Don M
I share your concerns. In fact it is more than concern...I feel afraid. I have seen not only Catholics who see the Church as one of many (churches)but even who see it as one of many religions. So many people no longer understand what the Church is, even some clergy, not just lay people. I always remember "on this Rock I build by Church" and I have a big problem with being disobedient to the Pope, so although I have strong SSPX sympathies and basically think like them, I remain mainstream. Under Pope Benedict that seemed possible because I saw that he was trying to reform the reform, so patience and hope seemed reasonable. I felt uneasy about Pope Francis from the start, but decided to give it a couple of years to see what he does...but I am afraid already my hope and patience are being strained to the max. It is a huge dilemma...either the Church is the one true Faith or it isn't. If it isn't, why bother? What's the point? And if it is (as I believe) it is distressing when this teaching seems to be swept under the carpet. And who upholds the traditional understandings? SSPX. The rock and the hard place I am stuck between are getting to the point of being very very uncomfortable.

kend said...

Prayers to you and yours..

Barbara said...

Dear AndrewRusso - I am not one into conspiracy theories - no not at all - but I can admit to having that eerie sensation that you described - like I had been hit spiritually by something in the stomach - of course these are purely my sensations and probably amount to nothing - but I might add I knew nothing of Cardinal Bergolio before he stepped out onto that balcony as Pope so I had no preconceived ideas about him... I too was profoundly uncomfortable with that scene ...

1279 asingdon said...

"Brick by brick" is like putting out a raging house fire drip by drip. And the result would be the same.

Judge Douglass Bartley said...

Here are three more dishearting news reports on Francis, the Protean Pope
On Gay Unions, a Pragmatist Before He Was a Pope

BUENOS AIRES — The very idea was anathema to many of the bishops in the room.

Argentina was on the verge of approving gay marriage, and the Roman Catholic Church was desperate to stop that from happening. It would lead tens of thousands of its followers in protest on the streets of Buenos Aires and publicly condemn the proposed law, a direct threat to church teaching, as the work of the devil.

But behind the scenes, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, who led the public charge against the measure, spoke out in a heated meeting of bishops in 2010 and advocated a highly unorthodox solution: that the church in Argentina support the idea of civil unions for gay couples.

The concession inflamed the gathering — and offers a telling insight into the leadership style he may now bring to the papacy.

* * *

Though Benedict publicly condemned legal recognition of unmarried heterosexual couples, much less gay couples, there was often an expectation of some discretion in putting his positions into practice.

* * *

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/20/world/americas/pope-francis-old-colleagues-recall-pragmatic-streak.html?_r=0
_________________________________

The only controversy in Rome may come from the fact that Biden and House Democratic Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, both Catholics who have defended access to abortion, took Communion. Conservative Catholics have condemned that in the past.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/seeing-pope-biden-wraps-soft-power-trip-rome-110021369–politics.html
__________________________________________________
Pope Francis ‘Kissed Me!’ Says Argentina’s Kirchner
Kirchner suggested Monday that the new pope involve himself in Falkland Islands dispute

By Steven Nelson

March 18, 2013 Pope Francis meets Argentinian President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner in Vatican City, March 18, 2013.

Pope Francis took a step toward smoothing over a turbulent relationship with Argentina’s President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner Monday, with the feisty Latin American leader boasting of a kiss by the former archbishop of Buenos Aires.

“Never in my life has a pope kissed me!” she said after becoming the first foreign head of state to meet with the new pontiff.

* * *
http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/03/18/pope-francis-kissed-me-says-argentinas-kirchner

AndrewRusso said...

Barbara-- I'm just curious about how many people felt that way. I knew of him beforehand so I was quite concerned when the announcement was made, certainly juxtaposed with a virtually unprecedented abdication of a sitting pope.

Texana said...

Dear Barbara and Andrew
That uneasy feeling of something amiss can be your "Catholic sense" and/or the Holy Ghost. Never dismiss those little intuitions as you cross a dark street, enter an elevator, or meet a new pope. The more you pray the more you see.

Albertus said...

Dear Uncle:
you are so very right about this, that i feel the need to repost your words here, and add, perhaps the post-Vatican-II-heresy in the Western Church, which is like unto the Arian Heresy which once plagued the Eastern Church -is a punishment for having eleveated the Pope to the heights of a quasi-divinity:
''Dr. von Hildebrand, in "The Devastated Vineyard," correctly pointed out one of the biggest faults of the pre-Vatican II Church: an extreme overemphasis on authority and obedience, resulting in an immature clergy and laity who were unable to raise questions and concerns when they truly needed to. This is one of the great ironies of the Church. The things that needed fixing before Vatican II, haven't been; the things that were valuable and precious, on the other hand, have been destroyed.''

Benedict Carter said...

AndrewRusso, Barbara:

I'm another one. The announcement of the new Pope was banal, perfunctory, and he seemed not remotely interested at all. There was a coldness in it that struck me very forcibly. I thought it was positively weird. I have to say that I have taken a dislike to the man.

Someone needs to take him to one side and tell him he is the Pope now, not some "peace and justice" beatnik priest with quasi-Franciscan tendencies.

Christine said...

A confident to Bergoglio disputes the claim that he ever supported same-sex unions:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/bergoglio-didnt-suggest-endorsing-homosexual-civil-unions-in-2010-says-conf

El Cid said...

In other news designed to make you upset, Cardinal Wuerl was interviewed on a local news station. You can find it here--take a moment to listen to the actual interview: http://www.wtop.com/41/3258668/Wuerl-gives-behind-the-scenes-peek-at-papal-conclave

This is really dispiriting. I guess I'm not used to a prince of the Church sounding like a mainline protestant, e.g. 'Can't we all respect each other?' Worse still, nowhere in his comments does he talk about orthodoxy. I sense the kids have discovered that they have the run of the playground.

Any remotely orthodox priest in the Archdiocese of Washington ought to be shaking in his boots.

Why do I get the feeling that Cdl. Wuerl will be stationed at ADW for a long time?

Gregory said...

It obviously doesn't mean anything but I just thought I'd point out that His Holiness' signature on his official photograph, released today, is simply "Franciscus". That is, without the "pp" styling that, certainly, his three main post-Conciliar predecessors maintained (I couldn't find an example of Pope John Paul I). Like I said, though, it probably doesn't mean much. Signal-wise. Like mozetta-gate and redshoes-gate didn't, and...

*prayers with you NC*

Roger Buck said...

New Catholic

I just wish to add to the echoes here.

My echoing continued prayers for MJ and you.

My echoing profound gratitude for all you are doing.

I trust you will be vindicated for your wakefulness while others were asleep.

Anthony said...

I felt a coldness and a sense of foreboding too when Pope Francis came out on the balcony. It was the opposite of 2005, where I felt great joy when Pope Benedict stepped out. You could see the joy in Pope Benedict as well. I didn't see that with Pope Francis. That is just my personal feeling, since I can not get into the man's heart. I just hope I am wrong.

poeta said...

AndrewRusso, Barbara, Benedict Carter: Me too, every word you said. Eerie, foreboding, kick in the stomach, cold, menace, weird.

Marcello said...

In hindsight, Benedict's abdication was a dangerous and reckless act from which nothing good shall come. Francis' papacy may, in fact, be an act of chastisement for his abandoning the throne of Peter. Personally, I will escape what will become a lurid liturgical Roman circus by over to the Byzantines; if I don't, my head will explode.

backtothefuture said...

We have to all pray for the holy father. There's nothing more we can do. He definitely marches to his own drum beat. So far what I have heard him say has been orthodox.

Wormwood said...

Matt said: "Sodom and Gomorrah II, here it comes!!"

It's been around us for a while now. The perversion is celebrated in Sydney... the G & L Mardi Gras... every year. And our SSPX chapel always holds the 40-hr devotion to coincide with it in reparation for the outrage.

If the blind men healed by Christ were alive today they probably would prefer remaining blind for their souls' good.

Donal said...

I'm right there with you, my friends. I don't think I'll ever be able to get past that spectacle on the loggia. The whole production was very, very strange. "What did Pope Benedict know and when did he know it?"

Robert said...

I wonder if if we will have "Live From a Soup Kitchen in Rome. Christmas Eve with the Bishop of Rome". Starring Busted Halo, from Cardinal Dolan's Catholic Channel, as the color commentator. "Happy Christmas Eve Child of God!!". He He!!

Clayton Orr said...

I disagree with the attacks being launched at those at the "hermeneutic of continuity" crowd. Pope Benedict and others with him proposed a theory for reform in the Church which involved a careful re-reading of the Council's key texts in a way focused on reconciliation with the past. He did NOT say that everything done in the past fifty years was done in continuity with the past. He proposed a reform, and made baby steps to initiate it. No one said that he had actually accomplished it. As for the episcopal appointments and cardinalate under his rule, look at the West Coast of the USA now as opposed to fifteen years ago. His agenda becomes immediately clear: Cordileone to San Francisco, Sample to Portland, Sartain to Seattle. It isn't difficult to follow.
Those who believe in continuity and reform, a process which many of us young traditionalists believe goes hand-in-hand with a completely free integration of the extraordinary form into the life of the Church, are the LEAST likely to hold back legitimate protest against poor churchmanship on the part of the Holy Father, if and when it occurs, precisely because we have a stake in the interpretation of the Conciliar documents in a way that many others do not.
I also think that blaming the Pope Emeritus is wrong-headed. Who's to say that God is punishing him for resigning and not us for failing to take his teaching to heart, if indeed God is punishing anyone at all and not simply trying to work a miracle in the hands of Pope Francis? I would rather believe that even one man's decision to pursue contemplation and hiddenness when he had the very highest office in the order of dignity and authority is capable of doing the Church more good than a hundred papal rescripts and motu proprios. All of this is about getting to heaven after all. Pope St. Celestine V, pray for us!

Calix said...

Something has to be wrong with embracing and calling attention to one wing or group in the Church while at the same time hurting, worrying, dismaying another group. This is not a humble road to take. The way the Pope is going about bringing attention to the world's less fortunate is by introducing a type of class warfare by highly weaponizing the trappings of the Papal office. If you wear red shoes, you can not focus or help the poor. This is absurd of course. A better message would have been to visit a poor neighborhood, remove his mozetta and place it on the shoulders of a poor child. There are more in the attic when he gets back. A powerful symbol would have been released. That the Church can and does relinquish some of its' wealth and at the same time respects and uses what she does have to encourage betterment for those less fortunate. A child who would have been elated to have received a gift from the Holy Father. It would depower and neutralize the symbol and at the same time maintain the distinct image of the Pontiff. If the world is to be known as a people who squander their riches then this Pontificate may well be defined as one which has squandered its' opportunities.

FRLBJ said...

I also felt a strange disquiet as he stepped out on the balcony and instead of being joyous and smiling, he asked us to 'bless' him, and he bowed to us, contrary to some wishful English translations I heard. I used to be Protestant and I found it a very Protestant thing to do, overemphasizing the priesthood of the laity. I could hardly sleep that night.Pray! Storm heaven!

tramtrist said...

So... What do we do with a pope who IS pope but doesn't claim to be or act like one? Our new bishop of Rome...

Hank Igitur said...

At the moment we don't even know if this Pope plans to live in the Vatican or introduce another novelty. Avignon perhaps? Constantinople? Buenos Aires? Nepal?

Siobhan said...

When the new pope was announced and he came out on the balcony, for just a moment I had a chill go up my spine with the thought that something is wrong. I haven’t shared this anyone until now because I chose to shake it off. Everyone else said how wonderful he was, especially EWTN and others who opinions I respect. Now the more I read and hear about Pope Francis the more cautious I‘m becoming, yet he appears to have a great devotion to Our Lady which usually goes hand and hand with orthodoxy. Very perplexing. His coming appointments will tell us more about who he is and where he wants to take us.

BONIFACE said...

Regarding this question of if Benedict was such a traditionalist why did he appoint such liberal cardinals, can it be that, once BXVI was in power, they all kow-towed to the pope's preferences, put on traditionalist faces, and managed to convince BXVI that they were on "his side" in order to impress him? It seems plausible, given that they are all doing the same thing now to Francis with everyone popping of about "humility" and "simplicity" and the poor all of the sudden. I don't doubt they would do that, but I would be surprised if Benedict fell for it.

Marty Jude said...

Anthony said..."I felt a coldness and a sense of foreboding too when Pope Francis came out on the balcony. It was the opposite of 2005, where I felt great joy when Pope Benedict stepped out. You could see the joy in Pope Benedict as well. I didn't see that with Pope Francis. That is just my personal feeling, since I can not get into the man's heart. I just hope I am wrong."

I shared a very similar feeling to you and others on here...The announcement wasn't joyous, rather stifled and bland. My immediate impression of Francis was that he looked scared, he appeared to struggle to smile and his 'blessings' were half-baked, barely recognisable. I felt as though something hit at my heart, in a very bad way. It felt so empty, cold and dark. Next, I couldn't believe how quickly and purposely he removed the Papal stole. Like something distasteful and almost 'dirty'. Again, empty...cold...and very dark...I hope and pray I am wrong, very wrong. I don't 'buy' this so-called humility. Surely the moment we appear humble by a definitive act, to think of ourselves as 'humble' we immediately enter into the sin of pride? I need to dig out the Imitation of Christ for myself and to guide my prayers for Pope Francis. Mater Ecclesiae, ora pro nobis. Christe Eleison.

Fr. Shannon Collins said...

Pope Benedict "razed the bastions" and now comes the full invasion with Pope Francis. I cannot help thinking that this was all somehow planned.

Ted said...

The heretical LCWR is happy with our new pope:

http://news.yahoo.com/jesuit-pope-offers-hope-targeted-us-nuns-180446586.html

Steve said...

I can add my name to the list of those who felt uneasy with the scene at the loggia even though I knew nothing about Bergoglio. I found his behaviour quite strange almost surreal.

Mike said...


I would be careful to judge from his first moments on the loggia.

Yes, it was not the joyful humility of Benedict XVI, but B16 had been in Rome since 1981...this new Papa was somewhat likely not fully at ease...

Praying...

andrew russo said...

One of my concerns is that of a schism developing or at least a division of loyalties among Catholics
while Benedict is still alive --if Francis completely goes off the deep end and starts out-innovating the innovators and ushers in Vatican III or some other heretical outrage.

Marty Jude said...

Marcello said..."In hindsight, Benedict's abdication was a dangerous and reckless act from which nothing good shall come. Francis' papacy may, in fact, be an act of chastisement for his abandoning the throne of Peter. Personally, I will escape what will become a lurid liturgical Roman circus by over to the Byzantines; if I don't, my head will explode."

I cannot help but continue to feel that Benedict was 'pushed'...I'm far from being into conspiracy theories, but why did he commence the Year of Faith, open a Twitter account, and above all, the New Evangelisation...only to abdicate? Nah, doesn't add up. I can't help but feel, especially with the outcome of the conclave, that the hierachy [maybe bishops, more likely cardinals] forced him to 'go'.

I, for one am feeling without a shepherd [and this is the first time I have been able to love and fully respect a Pope - Benedict, a truly humble man of God, who didn't need to put on exaggerated displays...his humility exuded from him]. What to do now? I'm scared for the future. A 'cradle' Catholic, I went over to Orthodoxy for a few years under JPII, but came back through the FSSPX to Rome under Papa Benedict. Now I am confused, lost and very, very concerned for our future. Is this what Our Lady foretold that The Church and the Pope will have much to suffer???!!!

St Jude pray for us.

Pio Amalraj said...

OK folks, I really need to vent now and join with you all and cry out loud. i am nervous and am deeply scandalized what will happen on Holy Thursday. will Pope Francis wash the feet of women prisoners? i have a deep conviction that the catholic church is the true church and Christ will ensure the gates of hell will not overcome it. Now I am deeply shaken and shocked. washing the feet of women during the Holy Thursday liturgy is a starting point for letting women into priesthood. Christ Our Lord, why Lord !! we cry unto thee. Master, have mercy.

JAK said...

I, too, have been put off by the new pope. And that scene on the loggia really was spooky and surreal.

I think the unease that everyone feels is because a schism is coming and it won't involve the usual suspects (traditionalists).

Percival Bingleby said...

I did not feel good about the loggia either, time almost stopped for a minute while I had the strange thought "this is not the Pope, something is wrong". I cannot explain it.

JB said...



He's so humble! The popes before were so arrogant! Joy to the world! No more papal ermine and lace.

Mahony should be cashiered. That guy actually voted in the conclave. Think about it.

Igitur said...

I fear it was a case of the Emperor's new clothes concerning BXVI and the college of cardinals. I think Benedict sort of knew it but the cardinals thought they were putting it over on him. His abdication is pretty much turning out to be a disaster.

Mary Kay said...

I wish I had something heartening to say. Perhaps that admitting I was a child of the 70s, and gradually turned toward the SSPX with the help of my dear (deceased-RIP) parents, I have weathered some grim days in the life of the Church. We have something now that we didn't have in the 70s, up until today: we have a strong internet community that has allowed the education of discerning Catholics. There truly is strength in numbers, and now we know there are others like us. Deo gratias! That alone is very consoling to me (thanks and prayers, NC), and to anyone who remembers what it was like in the 'dark ages' of the late 20th century! We will continue to pray and support one another through the uncertainty, and rest in the love of the true Faith.

Prof. Basto said...

You guys are saying that we are back to 1978 but I sense that this is an injustice being done to 1978.

We will miss not only Benedict XVI, but also bl. John Paul II, who at least wore his mozzetta, his papal stole, and blessed with the traditional gesture: http://www.fotografiafelici.com/index.php?page=scripts/inserimento&num_file=66&cerimonia=0000%20--ritratti/watermarks&data=2013-03-22%2003:13:01&cod=703&language=ITA&n_page=2#foto

Mary Kay said...

I wish I had something heartening to say. Perhaps that admitting I was a child of the 70s, and gradually turned toward the SSPX with the help of my dear (deceased-RIP) parents, I have weathered some grim days in the life of the Church. We have something now that we didn't have in the 70s, up until today: we have a strong internet community that has allowed the education of discerning Catholics. There truly is strength in numbers, and now we know there are others like us. Deo gratias! That alone is very consoling to me (thanks and prayers, NC), and to anyone who remembers what it was like in the 'dark ages' of the late 20th century! We will continue to pray and support one another through the uncertainty, and rest in the love of the true Faith.

Anonymous said...

Dear brothers,
Again I write from Argentina. First of all, I thank our Lord for Rorate Coeli, for this blog is paying a great service to the Catholic Church, by advising fellow Catholics all over the world about the desperate state of the current situation since Francis election.
For those who can read Spanish, my advice is to read the last post of Antonio Caponnetto, probably the most learned lay traditional Catholic in Argentina, who has heavily criticized Bergoglio in the past due to his modernist anti-orthodox practices and teachings in Buenos Aires. Here is the link: http://elblogdecabildo.blogspot.com.ar/
While Caponnetto is calling to pray for the new Pope, he also suggests that Francis may well be the Beast of the Sea described in the Apocalypses, the false prophet and shepherd that lead the flock to serve the Antichrist. He also suggests that perhaps Benedict XVI was forced to resign, and that the outcome of the Conclave was somehow controlled by the secular enemies of the Church. It is notable that the Chief of the Argentine Masonry, together with the B’nai B’rith, hailed Francis as their own candidate. If this is true or not, I cannot say; but what is undeniable is that things look awful.
Please, all of you believe me, as a Buenos Aires resident, we know that Bergoglio is a fierce enemy of orthodoxy. When Pope Benedict election was announced I was in tears (with happiness) and when I saw Bergoglio at the balcony I was again in tears, but these tears were of desperation and sadness. I know we Catholics should have confidence in God, but my first think was that this election was a chastisement of God.
My personal reaction: I hadn’t attended Mass at the FSSPX Chapel in Buenos Aires for a couple of years. Last Sunday I took my whole family to Mass at SPPX Chapel, and it was crowded. If I may see any good from the current situation, I may say that my Faith is strengthened and that I have become aware that we must always persevere and put ourselves in God’s hands.
Kind regards,
Antonio Lara

Lynda said...

What he did to Fr Guarnizo was disgraceful. Lord, have mercy!

Uncle Claibourne said...

As I said a week ago, second shot of Jameson is on order. :) I'm honored to listen to and converse with such good and honorable people! God bless you all!

Matt said...

scary goat said, "...SSPX. The rock and the hard place I am stuck between are getting to the point of being very very uncomfortable."

You put things quite rightly.

Matt said...

AndrewRusso said, ...Doesn't this make you think?

Yes, it does make one think and it makes one think the Holy Father came out looking and acting a little too casual, and there is an aloofness to his demeanor. He does lack a sense of joy, and to me, I don't detect any personal warmth. How often has he smiled? Everything comes across as routine as though he's already been at it for a while. I watched him during Mass and it appeared to me (could definitely be wrong) he doesn't like being told what to do. Those around him looked hesitant to give the Holy Father his next cue.

The Holy Father may be good with this feed-the-poor flummery, but it sure doesn't resonate a sense of personal concern or empathy.

One thing which really needs to be adjusted is the Church's website. That picture of the Holy Father holding up his hand (waving? blessing?) looks insipid, and that aura of blue, Andrew, yes, looks creepy.

Matt said...

Well, folks. Prepare for a big one--possibly. The Holy Father may decide not to live in the Vatican at all but at the Lateran Palace instead. It's all in this article. Very strange.

http://www.johnthavis.com/pope-francis-in-no-hurry-to-move-into-papal-apartment#.UUwc3hc3u-l

Marty Jude said...

Lynda said...
"What he did to Fr Guarnizo was disgraceful. Lord, have mercy!"

What did he do?!

David of Glasgow said...

Marty Jude,

I can't help but feel, especially with the outcome of the conclave, that the hierachy [maybe bishops, more likely cardinals] forced him to 'go'.

If this is the case then the abdication of Pope Benedict XVI was invalid and the man we saw step out on to the balcony last Wednesday is an anti-Pope:

If it happens that the Roman Pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.(1983 Code of Canon Law Canon §332)

scary goat said...

To all of you who are saying you feel uneasy...yes, add me to the list. I was living in Jordan when the first Gulf war broke....I remember one perfectly normal looking morning but walking down the street you could feel something wrong...the silence...something in the air wasn't right...then I heard that they had bombed Baghdad. Why do I have a similar feeling now...but worse? (bigger, colder) When I saw BXVI it was love at first sight. I was happy. Now, I don't have that feeling at all. I am trying to wait and see, accusing myself of jumping to conclusions, being irrational or simply not got over BXVI yet...being a silly emotional woman. But I have been here before....my worst mistakes have always been made when I rationalized my way out of a gut feeling.

poeta said...

David of Glasgow,

Not that there's any evidence to believe that, but if true... then refusing the mozzetta would be entirely appropriate.

Columba William said...

I too, felt the same unease that others have reported when Cardinal Tauran announced the name of the new pope and when Pope Francis walked onto the Loggia. Maybe it was because it was a surprise - after 5 votes I was sure it would be Scola. Maybe it was the perfunctory and joyless way in which it was announced (and in fairness to cardinal Tauran, he has Parkinsons Disease). But I couldn't help feeling that something had gone dreadfully wrong in the conclave. I even had a surge of adrenaline which I could feel in my lower back. I was unable to sleep properly that night and unable to concentrate on work for a couple of days afterwards.

These may be just purely human or natural reactions to a sudden surprise, or a sudden grieving for Pope Benedict who we did not get a chance to grieve because there was no funeral. We should not read too much into this. Yet, at the same time, I find it odd that so many others had the same reactions.

Still, Francis is pope and Vicar of Christ, even if he doesn't always act as such. We are obliged to pray for him, and to trust in Christ who is the true Pastor of the Church.

Mar said...

Donal at 21:23 said: "Does anyone else have the sense of something rotten having taken place during the conclave? It seems to me that the losing bloc at the 2005 conclave simply was lying in wait this entire time. As if the cardinal-electors knew exactly what they were going to do beforehand; ... "

In the following article someone else has misgivings about the conclave.

http://oriensjournal.com/homepage/conclave-strangely-short

Of particular interest is the foll. paragraph.

"It seems to have transpired that the pre-conclave hints about curial support for the Brazilian Cardinal Scherer were in fact a smoke-screen. There was apparently a solid move against Scola from the start, centred around a candidate with prior experience in attracting votes. Considering Bergoglio’s relatively friendly comments about the curia in a February 2012 press interview, Bertone’s adherents probably realised that they already had their man."

Woody said...

NC, praying for you and your mother, I get the reference to "we regret nothing" (from Edith Piaf's song Je ne regrette rien-- look for it on Youtube, but more importantly, kind of the theme song for those who vainly tried to resist de Gaulle's betrayal of French Algeria). I also noticed in Jeff Mirus's ezine reference to His Holiness's preferred reading, including Guardini and a habitless nun named Dolores Aleixandre, as well, of course, as Martini.

It seems that we may well be entering a time warp back to the old anti-colonialist days of the 1960s and Vatican II, which in one sense (that favored by the neo-pagan Right writer Guillaume Faye) can be seen as pure anti-European, anti-western civilization, ideology. And my conclusion would be that,ultimately,that is anti-Catholic, as Europe is the Faith and the Faith is Europe.

As Our Lady said at Fatima, she is our only hope.

I am not Spartacus said...

Brick by Brick Bund" members (someone else here used that term, and I love it!)

Dear Uncle Clairborne. I have been using that description in here and at other sites for a few years and, insofar as I know, I was the first to use it and I am glad you like it.

And I am now using Totalitarian Humility to describe what we will see in this Papacy.

His "humility" has already been noted in his vestments and actions and, now, Holy Thursday Mass in a prison...

EVERYTHING will be forced to change and submit to his personal humility; interesting that he will not change and adapt to Tradition but, rather, Tradition will be forced to submit to his idea of humility or it will be judged a form of antiquated triumphalism.

As Supreme Pontiff, Pope Francis ought reign and rule like a Monarch but we already know that, beginning with Pope Paul VI, Reign and Rule has ostentatiously processed to Rack and Ruin.

fr jim said...

Me too...... Dark, spooky & rainy....bright,sunny, joyful.... It makes me think of the pictures of Paul vi & his kidnapping by the communists back in the 70's & the tearing down of that wall in the 80's & with climate change, who knows what we are in store for in the 13's.

Lynda said...

See, for example, Protect the Pope blog, 11 July 2012: Lesbian Buddhist Pleased that she Destroyed Priest's Ministry.

Rumors said...

I'm surprised no-one has connected Vatican resuming credit card payments on 2/12:

http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/12/news/economy/vatican-payments/index.html

W/Benedict's resignation announced Monday, 2/11:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/12/world/europe/pope-benedict-xvi-says-he-will-retire.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Many reports are saying the Americans under the leadership of Wuerl (shill for McCarrick) elected him. It could be American infused cash into the vatican and bought the papacy. According to this source, citing both Wiegel & Allen, McCarrick was part of a "progessive" group in 2005 who supported Bergoglio:

"Cardinals included in this faction include America’s Theodore
McCarrick, Honduras’ Oscar Rodriguez Maradiaga, Indonesia’s Julius Darmaatmadja, and South
Africa’s Wilfrid Fox Napier. (Allen, 2002, pp.149-151)"

"Many media accounts portrayed the conclave as a David-and-Goliath style battle between a gargantuan conservative wing of the college (voting for Ratzinger) and a valiant band of
progressives (voting first for Martini and then Bergoglio) (Allen, 2005, pp.112-114)."

http://ojs.uccs.edu/index.php/urj/article/view/2/4

McCarrick is founding member of "The Papal Foundation" and a
million dollar donor.

I have no idea where he gets the money. He got JPII to create a bishopric for him in '81 (1st bish of Metuchen). Could be he is just a great fund raiser - consistently fund raised for Eastern Europe area important to JPII (and NJ & DC have the polish neocat priests to prove it): "In 1992, he also was named to head the Committee for Aid to the Church in Central and Eastern Europe."

http://durbin.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=7316b694-f30f-4e1c-a4d2-b92d7bdc5a34

In any event, if someone had to organize Americans & others to put together line of cash for the vatican, sure he'd be ready & willing to oblige.

If Bergoglio was the quid, probably they figure the church has survived worse.

Watcher said...

I just came across this (Bergoglio Unmasked) but it is in spanish. I tried Live Translator but it is too difficult to read. If anyone can translate this, I think it may be helpful. This was actually written in 2010 - prior to Cardinal Bergoglio becoming Pope Francis.

Bergoglio Unmasked

http://elblogdecabildo.blogspot.com.ar/2010/05/eclesiales.html