Rorate Caeli

IMPORTANT: Pope Francis severely restricts the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate from celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass, imposes the Novus Ordo on all their priests
UPDATE: FULL TEXT OF THE DECREE that abrogates Summorum for the FFI

8/6/13: For our follow-up article see: For the record: Franciscans of the Immaculate - three official responses to Vatican Insider and other official statements - IMPORTANT: Pope Benedict XVI did not order the FFI visitation, PCED supported FFI norms on use of Vetus Ordo in 2012 - Texts and commentary from Rorate


***

Rorate note: A clear attempt to minimize the importance of this decree is taking place here and there in the blogosphere, as expected. We are being told that this isn't really something to worry about; that this is just a particular situation, limited to a particular religious institution, and has nothing to do with how Pope Francis views Summorum

Against these manifestations of the spirit of denial that we have come to know so well since February 28 of this year, we raise the following points. 

1) First, the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate are not just a small religious Order or congregation occupying a tiny niche of the Traditional Catholic world; with more than 200 priests, 360 brothers and 400 nuns, they are the second largest canonically-regular religious congregation or society among those that primarily or de facto exclusively offer the Traditional Latin Mass. (The FSSP is the largest.) The family of female monasteries and convents under the spiritual care of the FFI have no other parallel in the Traditional Catholic world outside the SSPX. Anything that restricts the ability  of the FFI to offer the Traditional Latin Mass will of necessity be deeply felt by the Traditional Catholic world. 

2) One justification now being raised is that the FFI's application of Summorum Pontificum had caused discord in many communities and that the Traditional Latin Mass was "imposed" brutally on priests who did not want it. On the contrary, we in Rorate, who have been closely observing the FFI since 2008, can affirm that the opposite is the case: Summorum was applied in a very gradual manner by the FFI, the Novus Ordo was never forbidden in their houses and sanctuaries, and in many parts of the world the FFI continued to offer the Novus Ordo predominantly. It ought to be noted as well that the FFI, in their promotion of the "Forma Extraordinaria", have been remarkably free of polemics and public attacks on the Novus Ordo. 

3) Yet another justification now being used is that this action is acceptable because the FFI were not founded with the TLM as an essential part of their charism. This excuse is incomprehensible as it completely ignores the rights given by Summorum Pontificum to religious priests. Furthermore, if the dissatisfaction of a few is enough to get a whole religious congregation or Order restricted from making use of Summorum Pontificum, this opens an easy way by which the opponents of the old Mass can eventually expel the TLM from all non-"Ecclesia Dei" institutes. 

4) Lastly, and most importantly, the decree -- by specifically restricting the Traditional Latin Mass -- is a clear indication that it is seen as something problematic, something that must be excised from the life of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate. If this whole crisis in the FFI is not really about the Traditional Latin Mass, then why is it the target of exclusion and of restrictions, and why does the decree devote so much space to it, and why does the decree take the trouble of noting that this restriction was personally commanded by the Holy Father himself? If the crisis in the FFI is due to the misbehavior of some, then why is the deprivation of the Traditional Latin Mass extended to all?


***

Sandro Magister's latest column (For the First Time, Francis Contradicts Benedict) has the details. The emphases in the quote below are by Rorate. In our update, the full text of the decree.

The importance of this decree -- exquisitely dated July 11, the feast of St. Benedict in the calendar of the Novus Ordo -- is difficult to overstate. In the aftermath of Summorum Pontificum the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate -- the largest "strict observance" movement to be established in the Franciscan family of religious Orders and congregations after the general relaxation of observance in the post Conciliar era -- became far and away the largest religious congregation to adopt the Traditional Latin Mass as their favored form of the Roman Rite, albeit without completely abandoning the Novus Ordo. The FFI soon came to occupy an important place in the "canonically regular" Traditionalist Catholic world, being involved in numerous important conferences promoting Tradition and playing an important part in organizing many Pontifical Masses especially in Rome.

Many Traditional Latin Mass sites are open only because of the ministry of FFI priests; it remains to be seen how many of these Masses will have to be ended because of this decree. As of today we have already been informed that some of nuns under the spiritual care of the FFI are looking for priests to continue celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass for them after the August 11 ban comes into force. 

In addition, the decree virtually ousts from his position the founder and superior of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate, Fr. Stefano Manelli FFI, who is in his eighties, whose writings are known for their intense Marian devotion and fidelity to the traditions of Catholic asceticism and mysticism, and who is venerated by not a few as a living model of holiness.



The decree bears the date of July 11, 2013, the protocol number 52741/2012, and the signatures of the prefect of the congregation, Cardinal Joao Braz de Aviz, a focolarino, and of the secretary of the same congregation, Archbishop José Rodríguez Carballo, a Franciscan.

Braz de Aviz is the only high-ranking official in the curia of Brazilian nationality, and because of this he has accompanied Francis on his voyage to Rio de Janeiro. He has a reputation as a progressive, although that of a scatterbrain fits him better. And he will probably be one of the first to go when the reform of the curia announced by Francis takes shape. 

Rodríguez Carballo instead enjoys the pope's complete trust. His promotion as second-in-command of the congregation was backed by Francis himself at the beginning of his pontificate.

It is difficult, therefore, to think that pope Bergoglio was unaware of what he was approving when he was presented with the decree before its publication.

The decree installs an apostolic commissioner - in the person of the Capuchin Fidenzio Volpi - at the head of all the communities of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate.

And this in itself is cause for astonishment. Because the Franciscans of the Immaculate are one of the most flourishing religious communities born in the Catholic Church in recent decades, with male and female branches, with many young vocations, spread over several continents and with a mission in Argentina as well.

They want to be faithful to tradition, in full respect for the magisterium of the Church. So much so that in their communities they celebrate Masses both in the ancient rite and in the modern rite, as moreover do hundreds of religious communities around the world - the Benedictines of Norcia, to give just one example - applying the spirit and the letter of the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum" of Benedict XVI.

But precisely this was contested by a core group of internal dissidents, who appealed to the Vatican authorities complaining of the excessive propensity of their congregation to celebrate the Mass in the ancient rite, with the effect of creating exclusion and opposition within the communities, of undermining internal unity and, worse, of weakening the more general "sentire cum Ecclesia."

The Vatican authorities responded by sending an apostolic visitor one year ago. And now comes the appointment of the commissioner.

But what is most astonishing are the last five lines of the decree of July 11:

"In addition to the above, the Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

The astonishment stems from the fact that what is decreed contradicts the dispositions given by Benedict XVI, which for the celebration of the Mass in the ancient rite “sine populo" demand no previous request for authorization whatsoever:

"Ad talem celebrationem secundum unum alterumve Missale, sacerdos nulla eget licentia, nec Sedis Apostolicae nec Ordinarii sui" (1).

While for Masses "cum populo" they set out a few conditions, but always guaranteeing the freedom to celebrate.

In general, against a decree of a Vatican congregation it is possible to have recourse to the supreme tribunal of the apostolic signatura, today headed by a cardinal, the American Raymond Leo Burke, considered a friend by the traditionalists.

But if the decree is the object of approval in a specific form on the part of the pope, as it seems to be in this case, recourse is not admitted.

The Franciscans of the Immaculate will have to comply with the prohibition on celebrating the Mass in the ancient rite beginning Sunday, August 11.

And now what will happen, not only among them but in the whole Church?

Rorate has learned from its own sources that the "internal dissidents" were led by an American member of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate who was notable for his opposition and hostility to the any criticism of Vatican II, in direct contrast to the Italian friars of the FFI, many of whom adhered to the "Gherardini line" of loyal but unflinching criticism of at least some elements of the Conciliar documents.

_________________________________

UPDATE - TEXT OF THE DECREE

The text of the decree in Italian is transcribed below. The last paragraph, with the specific papal order abrogating Summorum Pontificum for the priests of the FFI, is exactly as reported by Magister.

Full text (Italian - source Messa in Latino):


CONGREGATIO
PRO INSTITUTIS VITAE CONSECRATAE
ET SOCIETATIBUS VIATE APOSTOLICAE

PROT. N. 52741/2012

DECRETO


La Congregazione per gli Istituti di vita consacrata e la Società di vita apostolica, attese le consiedrazioni formulate nella Relazione presentata dal Rev.do Mons. Vito Angelo Todisco a conclusione della Visita Apostolica disposta con decreto del 5 luglio 2012, al fine di tutelare e promuovere l'unità interna degli Istituti religiosi e la comunione fraterna, l'adeguata formazione alla vita religiosa e consacrata, l'organizzazione delle attività apostoliche, la corretta gestione dei beni temporali, ha ritenuto necessario nominare un Commissario Apostolico per la Congregazione dei Frati Francescani dell'Immacolata con le conseguente attribuite dal diritto particolare ed universale al Governo Generale del citato Istituto religioso.

Atteso che la suddetta decisione il 3 luglio 2013 è stata oggetto di approvazione in forma specifica a norma dell'art. 18 della cost. ap. Pastor Bonus dal Santo Padre Francesco, con il presente decreto si nomina


il Reverendo P. Fidenzio Volpi O.F.M. Cap.
Commissario Apostolico
ad nutum Sanctae Sedis,
per tutte le Comunità e i sodali della Congregazione dei Frati Francescani dell'Immacolata

Nell'espletamento delle sue mansioni, il Rev.do P. Volpi assumerà tutte le competenze che la normativa particolare dell'Istituto e quella universale della Chiesa attribuiscono al Governo Generale.

Sarà inoltre sua facoltà avvalersi, se lo riterrà opportuno, di collaboratori scelti a sua discrezione e da lui nominati previo assenso di questo Dicastero, a cui potrà chiedere il parere quando lo riterrà necessario.

Il Rev.do P. Volpi ogni sei mesim, dovrà informare questo Dicastero del suo operato, inviando una dettagliata relazione scritta circa le dicisioni adottate, i risultati conseguiti e le iniziative che riterrà utili realizzare per il bene dell'Istituto.
Infine, spetterà all'Istitutodei Frati Francescani dell'Immacolata sia il rimborso delle spese sostenute da detto Commissario e dai collaboratori da lui eventualmente nominati, sia l'onorario per il loro servizio.
In aggiunta a quanto sopra, sempre il 3 luglio u.s. il Santo Padre Francesco ha disposto che ongi religioso della Congregazione dei Frati Francescani dell'Immacolata è tenuto a celebrare la liturgia secondo il rito ordinario e che, eventualmente, l'uso della forma staordinaria (Vetus Ordo) dovrà essere esplicitamente autorizzata dalle competenti autorità per ogni religioso e/o comunità che ne farà richiesta.

Nonostante qualunque disposizione contraria

Dato dal Vaticano, l'11 luglio 2013

f.to Joao Braz Card. de. Aviz
prefetto

+ José Rodrìguez Carballo, O.F.M.
Arcivescovo Segretario

273 comments:

1 – 200 of 273   Newer›   Newest»
Jonathan Liem said...

Did Pope Benedict kill the deal with the SSPX on purpose? After all he knew about his retirement, and as a cautionary move, in the event the new pope is questionable, at least there’d be a pot to call the kettle black…

Genty said...

I believe Pope Benedict scuppered the negotiations with the SSPX for a very good reason, which is now becoming clear.
The dissident Franciscans were astute enough to seize their moment, knowing they would get a sympathetic ear from this pontificate.
The wrecking won't stop here.

Paulo Ghetti Frade said...

And there are those who believe it is possible to "read Francis through Benedict." Well, good luck with that!

David L Alexander said...

It doesn't make any sense. For one thing, popes rarely do anything to facilitate a predecessor losing face, never mind while they are still alive. For another, this would have to abrogate a motu proprio, which is nearly the highest decree a pope can issue.

I think it's a hoax. Or if it isn't, it applies to a specific religious community out of a specific set of circumstances.

LatinMassisTradition said...

The fact that the Pope is restricting the Latin Mass is a sign, to me, that we are in the end times. Many martyrs died to protect the Latin Mass which is the re-enactment of Calvary. Every Catholic should read "Quo Primum" and then decide where our current leaders stand in regard to protecting our faith and sacraments.

mjh said...

And so it begins!

Tom Coffey said...

I am gutted. The FIs in our diocese love the extraordinary form and are faithful to the Popes and the church. They regularly supply our parish when our priest is away celebrating the EF elsewhere. Looks like that's gonna stop =/

Mark Duch said...

Catholics prohibited from saying mass? What is the point of such a thing?

David said...

And this in itself is cause for astonishment. Because the Franciscans of the Immaculate are one of the most flourishing religious communities born in the Catholic Church in recent decades, with male and female branches, with many young vocations, spread over several continents and with a mission in Argentina as well.

Well, maybe this is the very point: the flourishing of this holy order has been a visible reproach to the post-Vatican II program of "renewal" and needed to be quelled.

But precisely this was contested by a core group of internal dissidents, who appealed to the Vatican authorities complaining of the excessive propensity of their congregation to celebrate the Mass in the ancient rite, with the effect of creating exclusion and opposition within the communities, of undermining internal unity and, worse, of weakening the more general "sentire cum Ecclesia."

This is an unusually restrictive interpretation of "sentire cum ecclesia" which seems here to mean no more than "celebrating a form of the liturgy to which the Pope seems indifferent", which is not really a just ground to prohibit their use of the ancient liturgy.

"In addition to the above, the Holy Father Francis has directed that every religious of the congregation of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate is required to celebrate the liturgy according to the ordinary rite and that, if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

What happened to the laissez faire Pope Francis who wants the Church to take risks and not worry too much about what the Church authorities (i.e. the CDF) say?

poetcomic1 said...

I find it hard to make 'the pieces fit'. This doesn't make sense on about three different levels. Will wait and see.

Dr. Timothy J. Williams said...

There can never really be any peace between the two rites. The vertical orientation of the one, and the horizontal orientation of the other, will always clash. The pattern is always the same: Those who adhere to the Traditional Latin Mass are tolerated, but only to the point that they do not become too numerous, attract too many young families, foster too many vocations. At that point, they are termed "divisive" and have to be suppressed for the sake of the "unity" of a fragmented and disappearing Church.

Long-Skirts said...

LatinMassisTradition said...

"Many martyrs died to protect the Latin Mass which is the re-enactment of Calvary"

Oh,

RED

Vestments of red
Altar cloth too
Martyrs who bled
Did this for you.

Gold Tabernacles
Veiled in red’s hue
Martyrs in shackles
Hung for this view.

Red mums full bloomed
In water and brass
Martyrs consumed
Burned for this Mass.

Red rays of sun
Rose-streak the nave
Their suffering done –
Now red we must crave!

St. Edmond Campion, pray for us!

George said...

Perhaps if we start groups such as "Gay Environmental Anarchists for the Old Mass" we can curry favor with the Holy Father and get a sympathetic ear for the TLM?

Archimandrite Gregory said...

I was afraid this was going to happen. He is setting church unity back 50 years by this action.

the Rock said...

Calm down everyone. What is the big deal?!? The pope sees fit to do something which is within his power to do, and as far as we know he probably had good reason to do so.

Let us rather pray for him and for the FFI who must be going through some intense trials if it has come down to this.

lifeasweknewitthen said...

This a decree that concerns the friars themselves and is obviously the result of particular circumstances after careful consideration by the vatican. If I know the friars they will willingly show obedience to the decree of His Holiness Pope Francis.

Athelstane said...

"...if the occasion should arise, the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community that makes the request.”

So now the question is: how forthcoming will be that authorization when requests are made?

Eric S. said...

So now that the Pope has officially come out against the "Pelagian" solution of "restorationism" it seems like only a matter of time before this same thing happens to the FSSP and ICKSP, no?

jasoncpetty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robbie said...

What a sad day. We essentially knew this was coming, but it still crushes the soul. And to make matters worse, Francis told reporters on his flight back to Rome he will not judge gay priests.

It seems clear the modern day Catholic Church has no use for its conservative and traditional members. The election of Francis was not meant to signal an end to Curial corruption, but a full and final implementation of VCII.

Has anyone checked in on Pope Weigel lately? Is he still off yelling, "JPII, we love you".

Martina Katholik said...

Now I understand why historian Alberto Melloni praised this Pope from the beginning of his Pontificate so exuberrantly.
Mr Melloni is the holder of the UNESCO Chair for Religious Pluralism and Peace and leader of the famous historiographical school of Bologna that produced the world's most widely read history of Vatican Council II, interpreted as a rupture and "new beginning" with respect to the previous era of the Church.

Dan Hunter said...

If this is true it is abominable.

My brother is about to enter the Novitiate of the FFI in Griswold Connecticutt, after a year of postulacy.

This would literally kill him.

I truly hope this is not true!

oldconvert said...

Can anyone give me some advice on how to avoid the sin of despair? I am a recent convert deeply committed to the Old Mass although with few opportunities to attend due to my location. Ever since my conversion I have been dismayed by the disunity within our Holy Mother the Church and now things seem to have reached where even my pessimism had not imagined. Praying hard is all I can think of.

Unknown said...

Clarity is not the Holy Father's long suit, but he's now made one thing clear.

No enemies to the "left." Nothing but enemies to the "right."

As the Masons were wont to say, no liberty for the enemies of liberty.

If the Friars capitulate, will the FSSP will be next?

Lhd said...

They are clearly face a new "state of necessity" because nobody can forbid de traditional Mass. I suggest them to join the SSPX.

Lee L-J said...

Francis is like King Saul, the dumbed Masses wanted an 'King' after the World , they got one but Francis has now declared War and if that is what he willeth, so be it. Just hope he realises it never pays to fulfill 'others' agendas that withstand Our Lord's !

Eugene said...

Reading Francis through Benedict, anybody?

Dan Hunter said...

"If the Friars capitulate, will the FSSP will be next?"

Very possibly.

And then regular parish priests will stop offering the TLM.

I know of at least one good young priest in my diocese who told me he was "forbidden" from offering the TLM.
That was in April of this year and then he was transferred to an outskirt parish with less than 150 families.

The Rad Trad said...

Something is a bit off with this given his comments a few months back: http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/18390

David said...

I think we may see the willing forfeiture of the ancient Roman liturgy as the shibboleth of "obedience" to Pope Francis. Whereas those who promote heresy are molly-coddled and told "not to worry" about it.

Fd said...

Is there nothing we can do to support the friars and defend TLM? Who is going to be the next?

mic said...

Per favore, NC, leggi qui (e anche articoli precedenti su molte gravi parole e atti di Bergoglio)

http://chiesaepostconcilio.blogspot.it/2013/07/francesco-contraddice-benedetto-su-un.html

Farò ogni sforzo per internazionalizzare il mio blog e creare sinergie tra di noi.
Intanto se vuoi suggerirmi qualcosa, sono a tua disposizione.

John Gerardi said...

Summorum Pontificum Art. 3: "Communities of Institutes of consecrated life and of Societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or 'community' celebration in their oratories, may do so. If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the Superiors Major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues."

If this report is accurate, I think this is the part of Summorum Pontificum that is most at issue. I wonder what the problem was: did they start to celebrate the old Mass "habitually" in certain areas without an explicit decision of the Superiors Major? Kinda hard to think that that's not the case. Basically this would mean that these religious communities can adopt the older form of the Mass--unless anyone disagrees with the decision of their superior, in which case said superior is toast.

Furthermore, for those of you saying, "This just applies to the FFI; it's not important!" If I may paraphrase the quotation of Martin Niemoller:

"First they came for the FFI,
And I didn't speak out because I wasn't an FFI..."

It is CRITICALLY important for all kinds of communities like the Norbertines, Canons Regular of St. John Cantius, Oratorians, or really any non-diocesan priest who cares about the traditional forms of the Roman (or Dominican or Carmelite or whatever their religious community uses) Rite.

Steve said...

Before you all get your guffs in a huff - as one who knows many details about what is going on within the FI, there is much, *much* more to this situation than the OF. There are reasons why the FI have been singled out, and those reasons are not related to the reactions occuring in this blog.

Johannes de Silentio said...

What could possibly justify this move apart from pure hostility to the Latin Mass? Lex iniusta non est lex.

John Gerardi said...

Sorry, I meant to say that it's hard to think that the FFI priests began to offer the old Mass habitually without the approval of their superiors--I think the way I phrased it accidentally indicated the opposite of what I wanted to say.

Hayfarmer said...

Cardinal Braz de Aviz stated that after WYD Pope Francis will make an announcement that will make the Church "lighter" and "simpler". Ripping out 2000 years of liturgy would do that.

John Gerardi said...

The one source of hope in all this may be Cardinal Burke, who is known to be a dear friend to the FFI both in the United States and Italy. I hope he can intercede on their behalf somehow.

Kathleen said...

OldConvert,

We are being chastised. All the world and the Church.

I can only tell you what I cling to.

These trials are our cross, we must embrace them. Our Good God created us to serve Him specifically in this age -- He has His reasons.

So we must more firmly apply ourselves to His purpose for us.

We must diligently work towards our personal sanctification as central and crucial if we are to weather direct persecution in the future.

We must do everything we can to save others given our state of life, skills, and opportunities.

We must defend the Faith and the faithful.

We must be His good children. There is nothing else we can do.

UnamSanctam said...

Shortly before he died, St. Francis of Assisi called together his followers and warned them of the coming troubles, saying:

'Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. but the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head, [Christ] these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy
Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer.'

I knew it. I don't know whether it's my Irish blood, very sensitive to changes in water and air, or my Catholic gut, or what a former parish priest called "the evident protection you enjoy from God", but I saw this man on the loggia and my blood ran cold.

This is proof to me, and should be to all of you, that the post-Vatican II church cannot abide Catholicism, cannot live with it, has to extirpate it.

I paused before writing the previous sentence. But not for long. Hasn't the last half century proved it countless times? You all depended on Benedict XVI. Why, may one ask?

No. The FSSP will be next. For me here in Doha, it's the Maronite Rite only and when I am on leave in England, the SSPX or nothing. Schism you say?

Almighty God knows who is in schism and it isn't me.


Benedict Carter

Alan Aversa said...

If this happens to the FSSP, ICRSS, et al., I could see many, if not most, of them joining the SSPX.

Dan Hunter said...

Steve,

In English, please.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

I get the feeling Cardinal Burke will be on a plane to the US soon

Athelstane said...

I have not been as pessimistic as some about this pontificate in regards to tradition, even as I concede that this Pope is largely outside my sympathies.

There is no way to spin this as anything but a significant setback for Tradition. It's a juridical act, not an off the cuff remark. Learning the details of how it came about would help put it in context, to determine the prospects of other future restrictions, but they can't make this a Good Thing. Or even a neutral one.

All this prefatory to a request to the Rorate editors for two things:


1) to provide us any additional information that comes to light about this unhappy event came to be;

2) to provide us all, if possible, any guidance on how all of us can be of assistance to tradition-minded Friars in their struggle to restore Tradition in their order. Beyond, obviously, prayer.

Anil Wang said...

An earnest appeal must be made. Sitting around brooding or shaking your fist smugly saying "I know I'm right and this proves it" does no-one any good.

The response is way out of proportion to the supposed problem. One group in one religious community of one country says they feel looked down on. Solution, effectively ban it for everyone in all countries of that religious community at a whim without even trying for find a way to reconcile the two sides of that local dispute or even request that the order be divided into TLM and NO subcommunities.

This smells too much of "The Spirit of Vatican II". Too many times, liberals said "Vatican II says...[modernist lies of the day]" as justification for their abuses. Liberals won precisely because Traditionalists let them get away with their lies, believed them, and started whining about Vatican II rather than attack the real enemy instead of calling out their blatant lies.

This has to stop. Did Pope Francis specifically ask for this drastic an action be taken or was it just "I assumed so because even Traditionalists seems to believe he's anti-TLM"? Does Pope Francis seek to abbrogate SP and UE? Does Pope Francis seek to suppress TLM or find a way from it to be able to grow peacefully along side the NO?

An appeal must be made. This cannot be allowed to stand, or we might as well start taking liturgical dance lessons, ordering polka gear for our future polka clown masses. Because that's where it's headed if Traditionalist continue to act as they have in the past.

rosesinwinter said...

This is why I have never been comfortable with the moto proprio. I have mixed feelings. On one hand it's wonderful that priests now know they can say the Traditional Latin Mass without permission. On the other hand it was redundant because the Latin Mass was never truly outlawed. Because of this perceived permission to do what we have always been allowed to do. What was given by man can be taken away. What is given by God should never be taken by man.

Eugene said...

It's only been four months since our Humility-in-Chief was elected. What's next?

Michael Ortiz said...


There can never be peace between the two rites?

I went, today, to 9:00 am Mass at St. Catherine of Sienna, in Virgnia. Mass was celebrated ad orientem, two male servers, another priest concelebrated, no EMHCs, and the St. Michael prayer was recited by all as the priests exited the sanctuary. This parish also has a weekly TLM on Sundays, at noon.

There can be peace, and the strenghts of the TLM can improve the NO tremendously.

However, for those who hate the TLM, peace is more elusive.

imurban said...

As a Latin Mass attending family, we periodically travel across Massachusetts to visit my mother during holidays, and the Franciscans operate the chapel we attend on such trips.

Back home, our family is blessed to enjoy proximity to a cluster of religious groups that celebrate the Latin Mass, all in varying stages of regularized status with Rome...grandfathered into diocesan acceptance, so to speak..so canonically we've always felt somewhat secure.

This is the first leg kicked out from underneath us. I expect more.

I can take Popes contradicting one another.
That's par for the course, no matter how much we loyalists might try to shoehorn one into the other.

I can even take ancient customs being jettisoned for the sake of unity, in principle.

But it's really going to hurt and require some soul searching on my part if a pattern emerges whereby the Pope starts categorically prohibiting the chief animating characteristic of the Church's most vibrant religious orders.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/world/europe/pope-francis-gay-priests.html?_r=0

This is even more telling, The Pope will not 'judge' gay priests

lugifan77 said...

Oldconvert,

The best way to deal with the present crisis in the Church is to be convinced that Our Lord is still in charge of His Church, despite appearances to the contrary.

Satan is like a dog on a lead who has been permitted by God to sift the Church these past 50 years. When his time is up he will be roped in again and chained up in the abyss from whence he came.

In the meantime, stay close to Our Lady of Sorrows with your rosary and fidelity knowing that others in the Church suffer likewise during this unprecedented crisis.

Understand the crisis from the point of view of Calvary. The betrayal, the scorn, the suffering and the desolation suffered by Our Lord, His holy Mother and the faithful 2000 years ago are manifest again today in the Passion and Crucifixion of Our Lord’s Mystical Body.

It will all end very soon and very suddenly, just when the enemies of God believe they have the victory. Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart will triumph and the restoration of ALL things in Christ will commence. Be assured of it!

lifeasweknewitthen said...

The decree entirley replaces the FFI government...there is a little bit more going on than the TLM here folks...the FFI were never a TLM community, well apparently not until very recently...the FFI today looks vastly different from the FFI of only 10 years ago

lugifan77 said...

Steve,

You said:

Before you all get your guffs in a huff - as one who knows many details about what is going on within the FI, there is much, *much* more to this situation than the OF. There are reasons why the FI have been singled out, and those reasons are not related to the reactions occuring in this blog.

Then perhaps you would care to enlighten us? I have a problem with vague statements like these, which suggest more to the story, never say what it is and end by accusing others of jumping to the wrong conclusions, which, in the absence of qualification, are actually the correct conclusions.

So please do tells us more. I'm sure we would all dearly love to be proved wrong in our assumption that this is yet another liberal attempt to rid the Church of the Mass of the saints and martyrs.

rob said...

I'm with "Steve" and Mr. Alexander, above: this only "applies to a specific religious community out of a specific set of circumstances."

Not to say that the "shield" provided for the licit excercise of authority by the superiors of a a specific religious community won't be used as a "sword" against those who love the extraordinary form of the Mass.

Barbara said...

Dear Old Convert,
I know exactly what you mean - in the end though - all this confusion makes Traditional Catholicism and the TLM shine more beautifully in the radiance of the Truth that they bear.

I was told by our TLM priest to stay with what the Church has always taught and only be informed of the craziness and giddiness of the Post Conciliar Church so that I can be prepared spiritually (and not only) to defend what the Church has always taught.

So faithful Traditional Catholics must know the Faith - and stay with it to defend it wherever they find themselves.

You asked - so I suggest you stay very close to Our Lady (with the Rosary)- and (if you haven't met him yet) read the works of St. Alphonsus who with his exquisite writings makes us want to love Our Lord Jesus with all our mind and heart and soul - and thats all that matters that we love Him and make him known to be loved...

You have the TLM even if it is difficult to get to - similar to my situation - so you already know the whole truth... and you have people from all over the world who understand and have the same discomfort as you do ...just a click away to find them...

This stuff is very unsettling as you can also see from the comments here. I have been particularly upset today about the FFI situation and the plane interview with the casual references to homosexuality from the Vicar of Christ - very bad, in my opinion - but I guess I have to pray more for him and all of us!

I shall have you too in my prayers.

Mj said...

I was disappointed with many things about Francis already. But with this, it actually made me laugh. In the days of St. Athanasius the Arian heresy had spread throughout the Church. St. Athanasius condemned this heresy and the Pope excommunicated him for it. The Pope of that time had become an Arian heretic himself. I believe it is safe to now say that His Holiness Pope Francis is a Modernist. Our Lady of La Salette, an approved apparition, foretold the destruction of Rome. I don't think she meant the literal destruction of Rome. I believe Our Lady meant the destruction of the Roman Catholic Faith in the hearts of many. I continue to hold that the office of the Papacy is one of the Church's greatest treasures. Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. Many priests have held that Christ never said hell would not attempt to. Pope Benedict XVl made the statement that the restoration of the Tridentine Mass was God's will. Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl did all in their Petrine power to restore Tradition in the Church and that! Is the will of the Triune God. Deo Gratias! We must pray a great deal for Pope Francis.

Unknown said...

They should appeal to Cardinal Burke as Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura. Perhaps he could help them. If true, this is so evil.

RJH

Gratias said...

We should be very worried about Summorum Pontificum.

The Franciscans of the Immaculate offer daily EF mass at 7:00 am very close to the Vatican, at Lungotevere Vaticano 1 at the church of the Annunziatina. Religious from the Vatican attend there. If this EF mass closes it will be a huge sign. Hope our Italian friends will keep us informed.

Kathleen said...


QUOTE: Athelstane

a request to the Rorate editors . . . to provide us all, if possible, any guidance on how all of us can be of assistance to tradition-minded Friars in their struggle to restore Tradition in their order. Beyond, obviously, prayer.



I would also very much appreciate any information and/or guidance of this sort, now or in the future, on this specific case or additional cases that may well develop.

Thanks so much.

Jeanne Holler said...

Yes this is all so alarming and a very deep concern .
But I do not want to lose hope. so I want to stand firm and keep my eyes on the TRUTH and only the complete TRUTH.
I agree with the comments about staying close to Our Lady and the daily Rosary...this is a MUST!
Prayer before the Blessed Sacrament is also a source of strength ...She will end the END TRIUMPH ...she has promised us.
She will CRUSH the end of the serpent.
We are living a very seriosu CRISIS within Holy Mother Church ..stand firm and rejoice SHE is being PURIFIED! PRAY, PRAY, PRAY ...pray much for Our Holy Father as Our Lady has requested ...this is our call .

Sancte Alphonsus said...

Wait and watch folks.

The FSSP CANNOT be next. The TLM and traditional form of Sacraments are it's very charism. Unlike the FFI they did not begin w/ the novus ordo and their whole fraternity is centered on the traditional forms.

FFI began novus ordo - changed to the TLM - it's been noted and now people want it changed back. They're in a whole different ball park unfortunately.

7fbc6254-eb65-11e2-85d7-000bcdcb471e said...


This is news is gravely disappointing but not surprising. It is the aim of all liberals to create an alternate universe of distorted and false realities.

See. I told y'all. In Bergoglio we have our Obama.

Adding to this, the news agencies are lit up across the Internet with the sensationalism of Bergoglio saying gays should not be judged. (Notice how abortion, homosexuality and control are the consistent obsessions of liberals.) No one is to be judged. The Church always taught that but behavior is and should be. Typical.

Matt

Tony La Rosa said...

Let this be a warning to the SSPX leaders who are so wanting of a canonical regularization with Rome.

Mgr Andrew Wadsworth said...

In this very specific case, I think it has to be borne in mind that the Franciscans of the Immaculate were not founded as an EF community. Their founder Fr Stefano Manelli imposed the EF after Summorum Pontificum. Some of their friars in parishes were understandably very unhappy about this for pastoral reasons and it was clearly something they had not foreseen or chosen and was imposed in many cases without adequate catechesis or preparation. It now appears that they have succeeded in making their grievance heard in Rome and overturning the decision of their Superior General.

7fbc6254-eb65-11e2-85d7-000bcdcb471e said...

As stated above, whatever the reason talks with the SSPX were sabotaged, and they were, the Providence of it is becoming clearer. God saved them.

This should be a wake-up call for those who continue to think the Holy Spirit hand-picks His Vicars on Earth. When The Most Holy Trinity has to back-door His own Church proves there are those whom have been given the privilege of running the Church also can follow their own evil designs and not exercise it for the Glory of God.

Matt

andrew1965 said...

We have the unmasked enemy on the Throne of Peter now. La Salette is coming true, as is Malachy's Petrus Romanus who will "preside over the destruction of the city of the seven hills" meaning the Roman Church. All we can do is fight, fight, fight and no more shilly-shallying and patty-cake playing by Bishop Fellay

7fbc6254-eb65-11e2-85d7-000bcdcb471e said...

One last thing about my reaction to this news. Those who created the "dissent" within the community of the Franciscan Friars of The Immaculate need to go. I don't mean this in retaliation but the fact they have created such a major act of discord and disconsonance within the community by their behavior.

Having an issue within a community is one thing. It's always been there but they way to go about it is entirely different. First of all, those dissenters joined a community KNOWING the Tridentine Mass was part of their charism, and now to complain about that now and have Rome come down so Stalinist in manner is dirty and their own fault.

I don't claim to know what happened to bring about this attention from Rome but suffice to say the results are a liberal's goal. Period.

Matt

Xiansiempre said...

it has been said: there is of course other things going on in the FI and people should recognize it is none of our business. FSSP is not "next" and the one on the Throne of Peter is not an "enemy" and to say so is heretical.
Deo gratias none of you are bishops or you would surely be rightly disciplined and removed for such words

Anchorite said...

Oh my, wasn't the designed-by-committee Novus Ordo "imposed" and shoved in the throats of the faithful Catholics universally?
I love that liberal mantra of hurt-feelings "pastorality" - when the good traditional things are "imposed" on them. They will never, however, raise a fingers when asked to wave hands like soccer fans and dress as fruity clowns.
I expected nothing less from this Bishop of Rome.

Anchorite said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JabbaPapa said...

Summorum Pontificum cannot be overturned, not even in such a local capacity, by anyone, not even by a sitting Pope, unless one should attempt to do so in the context of a Full Ecumenical Council.


Pope Francis must obey the provisions of Summorum Pontificum.

Nevertheless --- all Franciscan Friars must obey their Ordinary, including in liturgical matters.

So, I'd analyse this essentially as signifying that the leadership of the Franciscan Order has decided to try and defy Summorum Pontificum.

IIRC the Encyclical makes no specific provisions for Religious priests, but only for Diocesan ones. And so, these Modernists are trying to exploit this oversight.

---

What a GHASTLY development.

What next ? ANOTHER Assisi multi-faith jamboree of blasphemy ???

DEPOSE these pseudo-Franciscans someone !!!

P. F. Hawkins said...

As I understand it, the founder of the religious order (who one would think should be the expert on his order's charism) was ousted as the order's superior because directing his order to hold Traditional Latin Masses is against the charism of the order? How can the TLM be against the charism of any religious order?

Now there may be other concerns of which I am unaware that would be good reasons for replacing the order's superior. I am not opposed to the Vatican replacing religious superiors of wayward orders. Yet I do not see how effectively abrogating the never-abrogated TLM for all priests of a religious order is not an assault on their priesthood.

FrereRabit said...

I have waited patiently but with some concern, watching the antics of Pope Francis, hoping that all would turn out well. This is the clearest sign that my worst fears were justified. Given that Benedict XVI is a living Pope Emeritus we should give him a huge sign of support and demonstrate our appreciation of his liturgical reforms.

Carolina said...

Since the date that the apostolic visitation was completed is July, 2012 - well before Benedict's abdication - it does not appear that the dissent within the FFI was in any way an "opportunity" correlated with Francis' pontificate. If indeed the problem is as explained by Msgr. Wadsworth, is it not at least conceivable that the outcome would not have been a great deal different under Papa Benedetto?

Harry Seldon said...

Well. Let us say you have a religious community in some sort of crisis. Granting that is the case here, this decree indicates that the Pope thinks the TLM is not part of the solution. I think that is perverse. I suppose more clapping and swaying will fix them.

Oh, and, as some above have noted, Zuhlsdorf fails, officially, today.

JabbaPapa said...

I can only PRAY that even should these friars be forced to provide NO Masses, that they will be giving them IN LATIN, and in a manner as close to the TLM as possible.

Eugene said...

Who is Francis really?

Crouchback said...

Funnily enough as we were walking around Lisieux this morning, before I had heard of this "news"....I thought of the meeting of Archbishop Lefebvre and Padre Pio......

I wonder what they will be thinking as they look on the state of the church today.......???

Johannes de Silentio said...

It would be ludicrous to suggest that the fact that some friars wanted to continue to say the ordinary form justifies or explains why the extraordinary form has now been forbidden sans permission. It would have been quite enough to require the order to permit any friar to use either form at his discretion. One wonders if the internal dissension was not used as a pretext for this more radical move.

Sadly, the wind is blowing in a new direction, as this would have certainly never happened under Benedict or Cardinal Rode for that matter. The LCWR, meanwhile, remains extant...

P. F. Hawkins said...

Carolina said…

If indeed the problem is as explained by Msgr. Wadsworth, is it not at least conceivable that the outcome would not have been a great deal different under Papa Benedetto?

Sadly I would not find that surprising in the least.

Michael Ortiz said...


I think there is a whole lot of over-reaction going on here.

Eugene said...

Bishop of Rome on the bus much?

mjh said...

I read Card. Dolan's comments today on this pope. Very interesting and makes me wonder what he really thinks.

Mj said...

His Holiness Pope Francis chose the name of St. Francis of Assisi because of this Saint's Love and Humility. So then why has the Holy Father taken up the practice of inflicting wounds on souls of the flock he has been called to feed. This time he abrogates Summorum Pontificum lawfully imposed by the Father General of this Franciscan branch. The Pope has been repeatedly speaking against the following of a bunch of rules and regulations and at the same time imposing more rules and regulations. Does he not remember his own words, "Jesus does not impose on us, he is humble". Is the Pope's imposing on the Father General's decision for his Religious Order mean that he the Pope is not humble?

Banshee said...

So are they just asking all the congregations to ask for permission, so they'll know which congregations don't want to spend money on a stamp? Are they trying to get congregations to vote amongst themselves in case any are being forced, or what?

Neil Addison said...

Summorum Ponificum says Article 3

"If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the Superiors Major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues."

So as far as I can see this particular decision relating to the Friars of the Immaculate
"the use of the extraordinary form (Vetus Ordo) must be explicitly authorized by the competent authorities, for every religious and/or community [ie of the Friars] that makes the request."
is fully in accordance with SP. The decision by a Priest of the Friars to use the TLM "often, habitually or permanently" has to be agreed by the superior of the Order in accordance with their statutes.

Clearly there is a dispute within the Friars which is unfortunate to put it mildly but the issue may (and I stress "may) relate to individual Priests using the TLM regularly and unilaterally which would not be in accordance with SP.

Peccator said...

This news is crushing.

Old Convert--

I am struggling with the same temptation to despair in what seems like a similar situation. I only returned to the Church a little over a year ago (having been raised in a wacky Novus Ordo parish and early rejected the Church for being goofy, illogical, ugly, new-agey, etc.). Pope Benedict showed me that the Faith is intellectually compelling, beautiful, and ancient. It was thanks to Summorum Pontificum that I first discovered the Latin Mass--in a regular diocesan parish with a dedicated diocesan priest. Benedict allowed us, albeit faintly, to perceive the continuity of the ages stretching back to when Our Lord walked the earth. Seeing his pontificate trashed--and with it, our perception of Christ in His vicar on earth--is terrifying. As a recent revert/convert, I feel orphaned.

I don't have a great answer for us, and I'm very much a beginner in the spiritual life, but we must remember we still have Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. He has promised that He will not leave us orphans. I try to thank God constantly for the enormous grace of Benedict's pontificate without which I would still be agnostic. The chief help for me has been the Latin Mass. If there's any way you can get there, do! I also recommend frequent Confession, Eucharistic Adoration, and reading books by traditionalist authors. Important and useful as is reading the Saints, they had the TLM. We need to be strengthened in faith also by our contemporaries who do not have the TLM, or do not have it widely available. The drama of the last 40-50 years is the drama of the current Magisterium depriving the faithful of the ordinary means of sanctification. One book I particularly recommend is The Heresy of Formlessness by Martin Mosebach. I also recommend The Binding Force of Tradition by Fr. Chad Ripperger, which was reviewed on this blog a few weeks ago. Fr. reminds us that we must reject those acts of the current Magisterium that oppose the Tradition. And of course we must pray for the Pope, the rest of the current Magisterium, and each other. I will be praying for you.

Just another mad Catholic said...

There are times when I just want to give in to despair, why o Lord why ?

are 40 or so years of being persecuted for the Mass of our Fathers not enough for you?

Lepanto said...

The Pope told the South American religious not to worry too much about instructions from the Vatican. So perhaps this instruction can be ignored and the Franciscans can appeal to the recent words of the Pope himself.

Andy said...

Perhaps it is a test, a chance for this community to demonstrate it's obedience to the pontiff.

I know in the old days, obedience to one's superiors was obedience to God. Is that still the case?

I'm not saying that it's wrong to feel sad about this limiting of the traditional mass, or to wonder about what the pope is thinking. I for one love the traditional latin mass. But I am saying that this community should be joyfully accepting the authority of the pope and celebrating this equally valid mass as commanded.

John McFarland said...

The FFI is clearly attracting people who want the traditional Mass.

So the diplomatic approach by the Vatican would have been to put them in the ED structure, insist on their saying the NO, and otherwise let them go on as they are.

So the interesting question is why the Vatican did not do this.

One possibility is suggested by Bishop Fellay's remark at the blessing of the cornerstone and bells of the new FSSPX seminary in Virginia. He said that if "we annoy him," he may well excommunicate the Society. He is a man of action and not of "ideology," said His Excellency.

Another possibility is that there has been some contact between the FFI and the FSSPX. I don't know anything at all beyond that, but very little may be enough.

Still another possibility is that the Vatican is starting with the low-hanging fruit, and will play it by ear from there, depending upon the reaction.

I myself incline to the last. After all, Cardinal Bergoglio made sure there was no traditional Mass in Buenos Aires.

P.S. I note the Vatican's use of Vetus Ordo to describe the traditional Mass. Might I suggest that in lieu of the Extraordinary Form?

Jack said...

I am unhappy to see this suppression of the provisions of SP, even if it is happening in just one community (and I don't know the whole story about this, any more than anyone else here does).

However, remember that what one pope permits, the next can forbid, and vice versa.

rosesinwinter said...

Andy said...

Perhaps it is a test, a chance for this community to demonstrate it's obedience to the pontiff.

I know in the old days, obedience to one's superiors was obedience to God. Is that still the case?

I'm not saying that it's wrong to feel sad about this limiting of the traditional mass, or to wonder about what the pope is thinking. I for one love the traditional latin mass. But I am saying that this community should be joyfully accepting the authority of the pope and celebrating this equally valid mass as commanded.

29 July, 2013 18:03

If it is wrong as you yourself suggested; then how and why should the Franciscans "joyfully accept" this very wrong ruling? If the authority of the church is telling you to do something wrong then maybe it is time to fight for what is right, not "joyfully" submit to what is wrong.

In the old days, our superiors would not have tested obedience by asking priests NOT to say the holiest mass possible.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

It is entirely possible that our Lord chooses to chastise those he loves (Benedict XVI) for abandoning the work he puts before them.

This whole I am old and tired and cannot carry the cross anymore was bound to have problems. The Glee with which Cardinal Mahony went to Rome with and his joy at the election of Pope Francis was another red flag.

Not only that, a pontificate that gets raving reviews in the secular media, a institution and an ideology bent on completely destroying anything with any identity tied to that of Our Lord should probably cause Pope Francis to reconsider his actions.

A Christian should be very concerned if the New York Times finds anything positive to publish about them.

7ddd379a-f026-11e2-99fc-000bcdcb2996 said...

"...this would have to abrogate a motu proprio, which is nearly the highest decree a pope can issue."

I'm no expert, but I have read that a motu proprio has the authority of Canon Law and actually amends Canon Law directly.

Another consideration is that an unjust "law" (order, directive, regulation, etc.) is not a law.

Nevertheless, it is clear that the hierarchy is infested with men who only care for the law to the extent that it can be used to further their own purposes. They have the whip hand these days, humanly speaking of course.

Louis

Peccator said...

Andy,

I respectfully submit that you do not understand obedience. Our first obedience is to God, second to Tradition which is our ordinary means of knowing God, third to the current Magisterium. The first two never contradict one another. However, the current Magisterium (in varying degrees--obviously way worse under the current Pope than the last) at times contradicts Tradition. I don't know how anyone can argue that severely limiting the Mass of St. Gregory the Great does not contradict Tradition. There is at least a compelling argument that obedience to Tradition OBLIGES those concerned to disobey this decree. As a layman in no way associated with the FFI, I find myself bound in conscience to deplore this decree.

Steve Calovich said...

The Byzantine Rite is looking better and better.

Allan Wafkowski said...

Taking a cue from resent popes, I'd like to apologize for the insensitivity and hurt the Bishop of Rome (formerly called the pope) has fostered on those with an attachment to the Latin Mass and Catholic Tradition.

We pray for a return to sanity.

Jordanes551 said...

We have already seen the Holy Father ignore liturgical law and tradition whenever it suits his fancy (the Holy Thursday scandal), so it's not entirely surprising that he would ignore liturgical law in this matter. Very troubling, outrageous in the extreme, but not surprising. Continue to pray for him, and for all faithful Catholics -- this pontificate will be a sore trial and, if things continue as we have seen these past few months, will be remembered as one of the most disastrous pontificates the Church has ever known.

Dr. Mike said...

Robbie: "Has anyone checked in on Pope Weigel lately? Is he still off yelling, "JPII, we love you"" I think Pope Weigel is probably writing his guide book on Just War with whomever the U.S. war machine desires.

Morgan said...

No, 40 years in the wilderness is not enough for having passed VII. The old saying once the camel's nose is inside the tent....

I don't see it as a sin of despair. I view it as a sign of realism.

The next group they'll go after? I know its not my church. I emailed and asked if they do a TLM and I heard crickets for a response.

We do have a Poor Claire Sisters who do nothing but pray and keep a vow of silence which I guess Francis will go after next. Why? Well, they wear wimples of course. Can't have that in the new world of VII.

I'd feel persecuted and not a little hunted if I were a Franciscan Friar right now.

I rarely read books from religious authors or publications that are after VII. I find them flimsy and more new age-y. I do have Pope BXI's books and as for his take on TLM vs. Francis's just released thou shalt not under penalty of... I would be praying hard for Benedict and his food taster. This is going to get spiritual tough between these 2 men just on the basis of one still living with the grace of God and the other living like with the grace of a bull in a china shop.

So nice that if one is gay and called to the church - who is the Pope, the head of the church, of a billion people, the rock that Jesus said his church would be build on, to say no? Guess the rumors of the other apostles being gay were true also and that suspicious tweet that Mary Magdalene might have been up to more than just a follower of Jesus had some truth was also ok. Meh, whatever floats Francis's boats as he's in the fisherman's shoes.

Oh, wait, he's not wearing the red shoes. (wink wink) Got it.

Next up? Gay marriages in Catholic churches. All the rage because of course, can't lose those tax credits that I'm pretty sure Jesus would've turned the tables over next to the walls of His Father's house.

backtothefuture said...

With all the evil in the world and in the church, you'd think there were more important things to go after, than catholics being cathlics. And Ricca is still comfortably in his post.

Alpha Cage said...

The FACT is that the FFI swifts to Vetus Ordo not only in the celebration of the Mass but also they used Latin Breviary WITHOUT MANDATE FROM THE HOLY SEE, KNOWING THAT THEY CAN'T DO THIS WITHOUT PERMISSION BECAUSE THEY ARE PONTIFICALLY APPROVED.

JabbaPapa said...

If you were right, Alpha, then this issue would have been quietly dealt with behind the scenes.


Instead of this slap in the face.

David said...

Alpha, what about the freedom to make mistakes.and not worry about the reaction of the Church's hierarchy?

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

Alpha Cage said...
The FACT is that the FFI swifts to Vetus Ordo not only in the celebration of the Mass but also they used Latin Breviary WITHOUT MANDATE FROM THE HOLY SEE, KNOWING THAT THEY CAN'T DO THIS WITHOUT PERMISSION BECAUSE THEY ARE PONTIFICALLY APPROVED.


Even if this were the case, the ruling still contradicts the Mortu Proprio, Further, there is this question of an enthusiasm to come down hard on anyone who displays any semblance of tradition while having endless talks with the likes of LWCR and ‘gasp’ Jesuits who clearly left the faith a long time ago yet are leading millions of sheep to hell with them.
Where is the swift dishing out of discipline in these cases? Last I checked LWCR is still in talks, still doing their misguided interpretations and running a parallel magisterium of nuns.

JEFF KLUMP said...

Jeff said....

Read the prophecies given to thee St. Francis of Assisi shortly before he died.

Look them up on Google.

Also, the prophecies given to Our lady of LaSalette.

You will understand what is going on.

Glendon Cheshire said...

I wouldn't make the inductive flaw of assuming this means any TLM only group is next. The FI are explicitly trad like the IBP, ICKSP, or FSSP. They can't NOT offer the old Mass.... it is their charism. In the case of the FSSP, they have binding agreements that would be very, very, very hard to undo.

Anchorite said...

Any agreement (re. FSSP) isn't binding to the Padishakh of Rum.

Steve Calovich said...

Even if the FSSP is forced to exclusively say the Novus Ordo, at least it will be well said.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

Jeff said....
Read the prophecies given to thee St. Francis of Assisi shortly before he died.


Also, the prophecies given to Our lady of LaSalette.

You will understand what is going on.



You cannot be certain these prophesies are 'coming to pass'. The Holy father may lack sophistication of the Media, and may make bad decisions, but to jump out and declare him ze evil one prophesied about is sort of going too far.



Glendon Cheshire sayeth...
I wouldn't make the inductive flaw of assuming this means any TLM only group is next. The FI are explicitly trad like the IBP, ICKSP, or FSSP. They can't NOT offer the old Mass.... it is their charism. In the case of the FSSP, they have binding agreements that would be very, very, very hard to undo..



I have this feeling that our Holy Father's desire to be popular is informing his decisions. Soon or later, he will seek popularity amongst the traditionalists. He cannot bear being unpopular. This is his weakness. I hope I am wrong though. I feel I am being too severe towards the Holy Father by making this judgment on his character but, I get the distinct feeling that it drives a lot of his decisions. I hope I am wrong. But soon or later, if what I perceive is true, will translate into a bountiful harvest for the traditionalists.

Fr. Angel Sotelo said...

If Pope Francis wanted to wreck SP, he would have simply abrogated it. Instead, the Holy Father wrote a very narrow instruction to one religious community which states that priests who wish to offer EF Mass must ask their superiors first. He did not suppress, abolish, forbid, or even badmouth the EF Mass for the friars. He simply asked that friars work under their superiors in these questions.

The dire, apocalyptic warnings and groans of despair must have the devil laughing and dancing at the same time. When the FSSP faced a crisis over a decade ago, we were told they were about to be suppressed. When the Transalpine Redemptorists faced a similar crisis, we were told they were going under any day now. When will people have even a little bit of faith that Jesus and Mary are taking care of us in all things?

Internal fights among friars over the liturgy are symptoms of far worse problems. The Holy Father's intervention, if one can read between the lines, is addressing dirty laundry which the Holy See is prudently not going to hang out for everyone to see. Our Lord's will for the FFI will not be impeded by men.

SemperIdem said...

Very sad. Offering up my rosary for all despairing souls...

Magdalene said...

I am a Tertiary with this Order and it has been one of the most incredible blessings of my life to be such.

Already I have received a notice from one superior who indicated that the official request to offer the TLM is already in the works but if that does not happen before August 12th then they will offer the Latin Novus Ordo ad orientum with Gregoran chant, etc.

He stresses the need to be fully obedient to the Holy Father as was St. Francis. No true Franciscan can be otherwise.

But I learned on the internet of the replacement of the superior (whose own parents are Servants of God and who was a spiritual son of St. Padre Pio). That saddens me. I do know of one priest for sure who hated the TLM and caused such a ruckus that he was removed from his post and sent to where only the TLM was being offered! He often spoke against tradition and upset his community. And there is another superior who was also refusing the TLM. Most friaries offer both forms and a few had become exclusively TLM. This movement became more pronounced under Pope Benedict and was in obedience to him.

Glossu2000 said...

Next stop: FSSP and Vianney.

Prepare for a strong suffering but don't loose the sight of our Lord who does not lie and never treasons.

Enoch said...

It's most unfortunate that the FFI must celebrate Mass in the OF unless they have permission for the TLM. This may affect TLM communities that depend on FFI for help with their Masses.

On the other hand, I suppose that those friars who don't want to celebrate the OF can petition to start their own community where they can say the TLM exclusively - a community that has it written in its charter that they only celebrate the TLM. That's the only way that they will be free to celebrate it. But getting permission for such an endeavor may be difficult.

Mariabosco said...

I love the rich tradition of our Catholic faith. I am deeply blest by either form of the Mass I attend (though when not reverently or correctly celebrated it is painful). They both have their place. At the heart of the Mass is Jesus present in the Eucharist. Some may have preference for the TLM and see it as superior, and some preference for the ordinary. But I believe that as Catholics we must not put the rite of the liturgy before the heart, source and summit of our faith -- Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
As well, some who have posted seem to be against Vatican II, or the "spirit of Vatican II". Granted, I agree that some have gone off in a direction with a "false spirit of Vatican II," but it grieves my heart when some "throw the baby out with the bath water," and speak negatively of Vatican II. It's purpose was to "open the windows and let in the Holy Spirit" so the the Church could breath fully with life, with both lungs. May we not put God and His Holy Spirit in a box of strict tradition and ritual that negates the life, love and grace of the Holy Spirit to enliven us in the fullness of our calling.
Sometimes we can hide behind ritual and tradition and miss out on the fullness of life in God.
I also believe we as Catholics must not to be so quick to judge and presume that our opinion or perspective is the correct one. As Catholics truly striving the follow Christ, of utmost importance is always being open to where we can grow in ever-greater fullness of the truth, and ultimately our personal communion with God.
Holding on to our strong opinions and perspectives can distract us from really experiencing the Spirit of Christ in our times.
And regarding Pope Francis judging priests... he is very accurate in saying that. None of us are to judge but Christ alone. We can judge the sin, but never the person.

Steve said...

"The FI are explicitly trad like the IBP, ICKSP, or FSSP. They can't NOT offer the old Mass.... it is their charism."

Completely untrue. The FI perform the novus ordo regularly. I was at one such mass this Sunday. In fact, up until very recently they rarely offered the EF, especially in America.

Johannes Faber said...

For crying out loud, I wish everyone calm down. We need to ditch this ultramontanism. We are behaving like neo-conservatives.

Take deep breaths. Make a cup of peppermint tea. Say your rosary. Read the Letter to the Duke of Norfolk by Bl John Henry, or the Banished Heart by Hull. Make another cup of peppermint tea. All will be well.

UnamSanctam said...

Mariabosco:

" ... speak negatively of Vatican II. It's purpose was to "open the windows and let in the Holy Spirit" so the the Church could breath fully with life, with both lungs."

It's purpose was to allow the Church to breathe with one Masonic lung and one Modernist lung.

Don't you ever stop to think, Marabosco, with all your deep breathing metaphors, that the Church was quite happily breathing for 2,000 years without needing to do various things with windows?


Benedict Carter

Enoch said...

Mariabosco, you mention that the purpose of Vatican ll was to "open the windows and let in the Holy Spirit," so the the Church could breathe fully with life, with both lungs.

The Church, however, was fully alive and the Holy Ghost was fully present in the Church before the Council, as He always has been since the beginning. In fact, I would say that the Holy Ghost is now hampered by a secular spirit that seeks to replace God.

It is the great beauty and reverance of the TLM, with its beautiful prayers that lift our hearts and minds to God that the Ordinary form of the Mass cannot do. The TLM is God-centered, while the OF is man-centered. There's a great difference. The TLM also reinforces the belief that Our Lord is fully present in the Eucharist. There are no doubts in the TLM about who Our Lord is, and what He did for us on Calvary. You only get a small part of that in the regular Mass.

Joe Potillor said...

Reading Francis.....through Abp Bugnini

C. said...

Who are the "competent authorities"?

Under Summorum Pontificum, the competent authorities are
a) the rector/pastor for public Masses at parishes, public shrines and oratories, and
b) the order itself for conventual (a/k/a "community") Masses and liturgies, and
c) the celebrating priest himself for private Masses, and cet. par. whoever is saying the Office privately.

(I understand that the order is under the control of the Apostolic Visitor.)

If Summorum were abrogated, there would be no "competent authority". So I can only assume that the legislative intent is not to abrogate Summorum.

Jon said...

Here are the pertinent articles of Summorum Pontificum.

Article 2 guarantees the right of any priest to celebrate the EF privately, without recourse to a superior of any kind.

Article 3 concedes that permission from superiors must be had for a CONVENTUAL Mass in the EF on a regular basis.

Public celebration would be contingent on a group asking for a Mass. Any religious being a pastor or canonical chaplain would then have the utter freedom to celebrate or allow public celebration of the EF in the place of his responsibility whether in a diocesan or religious setting.

"Art. 2. In Masses celebrated without the people, each Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or regular, may use the Roman Missal published by Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962, or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and may do so on any day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. For such celebrations, with either one Missal or the other, the priest has no need for permission from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary.

Art. 3. Communities of Institutes of consecrated life and of Societies of apostolic life, of either pontifical or diocesan right, wishing to celebrate Mass in accordance with the edition of the Roman Missal promulgated in 1962, for conventual or "community" celebration in their oratories, may do so. If an individual community or an entire Institute or Society wishes to undertake such celebrations often, habitually or permanently, the decision must be taken by the Superiors Major, in accordance with the law and following their own specific decrees and statues."

RipK said...

Father, I admit that I found your words very comforting. How much I would like to believe that you are right. Francis is causing me a lot of anxiety and worry.

Michał Patycki said...

@ all those in despair.

Jesus is with His Church. I know despair in my life and I know feeling leading to it always end and eventually make us stronger. God, who acts in His Church and gives us His Word, is not the God of despair.

Robbie said...

Clearly, those charged with guarding the faith, have lost their faith. I can only imagine what Ranjith, Pell, Bagnasco, and several other tradition friendly Cardinals are thinking.

This is a moot point, but the "conservative" block in the college clearly played its cards wrongly. Scola had already once been blocked by Bertone to head the Italian Bishops Conference. Why they thought he could win enough votes to become Pope is mind boggling.

Had the "conservatives" coalesced around Bagnasco, who met Bertone's approval, he'd probably be the Pope. Instead, we get confusion and despair.

K-Town USA said...

The FFI are at Our Lady of Guadalupe Shrine in La Crosse, WI. and Cardinal Burke is the founder. They currently offer the TLM every Sunday (along with a Spanish and English NO).

I wonder what Cardinal Burke's reaction will be. I'm sure he will speak cautiously.

Irenaeus of New York said...

Depressing news. Prepare for more in coming years.

Long-Skirts said...

Mariabosco said...

"... we must not put the rite of the liturgy before the heart, source and summit of our faith...

... so the the Church could breath fully with life...

...to enliven us in the fullness

...we can hide behind ritual and tradition and miss out on the fullness of life in God."


What doesn't kill us makes our drinks stronger!!

Tradical said...

St. Thomas Aquinas states in the summa that a person may have a duty to disobey legitimate authority for a proportionately grave reason, such as when the faith is at stake.

This has been the issue for priests and faithful ever since the Novus Ordo came on the scene. Is the Novus Ordo a danger to the faith?
We have been forced between a rock and a hard place...in order to keep what Catholics had taken for granted as their right for 2000 years, we've been labelled, "disobedient", "old fashioned", "divisive" or even "schismatic"and"excommunicated"
We have to decide if our obedience is leading us to go along with the modern/ecumenical agenda of Vatican II. Is the Novus Ordo helping the faith of Catholics or has it led to the loss of faith?
This requires real soul searching for priests and laity.
Each person must ask themselves,"What must I do to save my soul?"
Imagine yourself in front of the throne of God at your particular judgement.
I cannot think that a priest who disobeys and says the TLM, or a layperson who attends the TLM in order to preserve his faith will be condemned by God. On the other hand, we have to be careful to recognize the Church and her legitimate head (even when they discourage and disappoint us). We have to do what we need to do to save our souls, and pray for the pope and the bishops because this mess can only be fixed when they consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, as Our Lady requested, "In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph"

Waverley said...

Is there now some diocesan office somewhere charged with the 'charism' of posting inane neo-Church agitprop on Rorate Caeli?

As I said yesterday, on a different topic, any traditional Catholic who sees this news will be aghast. What's the big deal?? I would ask, rather, to what end is one who cannot comprehend the magnitude of these developments (and I expect a post will appear soon on Francis' astounding in-flight press conference) traversing these pages and taking precious time to engage?

I don't get it.

On topic, and no doubt this has been said elsewhere, but the irony of 'Pope Francis I' coming down like this on these true sons and daughters of the Seraphic Father, as his first such act.. well, it defies belief.

May Our Lady protect the FFI, the SSPX, and us all.

Cosmos said...

Fr. Angel Sotelo,

Are you making the argument that because the context of a religious order--in terms of obedience and unity--is necessarily differnt that the context of a diocese, this should not be read as a pronouncement on the Pope's attitude toward the EF?

RipK said...

We have not been aware of these deep dividions among the members of your order. I think the society of st.Peter in France went through a similar ordeal few year ago. Probably it was a decade or so ago. It only takes a person to bring the whole house down. Please keep us posted of the developments. Your insightful comments matter to us. Thank you

Dr. Timothy J. Williams said...

I notice over on Fr. Z's blog that he has decided to go to a movie today, instead of "Reading Francis Through Benedict." Wise choice. Any Hollywood production would be less offensive than the World Youth Day: twirling Bishops, 3,000,000 papal line dancers, and an Argentine-style coup d'état aimed at the FFI.

tgates said...

i am in my mid twenties and consider myself a pretty conservative catholic compared to most of my peers. While i disagree with some comments Pope Francis has made, i am surprised see some of the remarks made about our Holy Father that have been left on here. Many of you seem to be more faithful to dogma of the church and traditions, while great, mere traditions of the church and not to the basic teachings of Christ.

If i disagree with Pope Francis, maybe i need to correct my own thinking, not speak down upon the Successor of Peter.

am i wrong?

FrereRabit said...

It is good to see that some Catholics maintain their optimism, even in the sight of such an obvious disaster. They are to be congratulated. If their optimism is justified, and this turns out to be about nothing, the worst we can say is that this is a massive failure of communications by the great Humble Pope Communicator.

Joanna H. said...

I admit to being a dyed-in-the-wool leftist with little hope of rehabilitation, but three areas in which I strongly favor tradition are in the Mass, in traditional Catholic worship, and in Catholic culture generally. It is one thing to prefer a more dressed-down, personable approach to faith in one's personal life. There may even be a time and place for it in public life, but it CANNOT happen at the expense of reverence to God, to the Church, to your office, not to mention 2000 of Catholicism. Remember that? That weird religious group where they speak Latin all the time?

And please, enough with the OMG Think of Teh Poor People(TM) nonsense. I'm low-income. I don't live in absolute poverty like many in the Third World, thank God. That said, I live on the cusp of the poverty line, and I work as a retail sales clerk, a profession with some of the lowest wages in the American workforce. I love, and have always loved, the Latin Mass because it's an ESCAPE from the trials of the world and bask in the glory of Heaven. On Sunday, I don't want to be further reminded of my underprivileged status by attending a liturgy so impoverished so that it makes my bank account look lush by comparison. And I certainly don't want to hear homilies about how awful it is to be someone like me and for people to pity me and make themselves more like me. I want to wear my Sunday best and attend beautiful, holy Masses alongside people of all classes for the same purpose...to experience Heaven.

Another thing to consider...in many areas, especially in years past, the Church was the only means available for people to be exposed to languages, art, music, and general culture. Getting involved with the Church in some way may have been the only way for a poor youth to exercise his musical talent, learn to read, etc. For a long time, the Church was the primary sponsor of the music and the arts. Maybe if you're middle or upper class and can do pretty much whatever you want at your leisure, you don't care about these free, easily accessible opportunities. But I care about them. It is said that man does not live on bread alone, and every low income person will tell you that it may be food and shelter that keep you alive, but it's participation in the finer things in life that make you feel alive and feel like a human being with some dignity. Does the Pope think the poor are too animalistic to recognize, to need or care about those things?

Right now, I only go to the Latin Mass but a few times a year because it is too far away. When offered correctly, the NO can be exquisite, but most of the liturgies I've been to are just plain cringe-worthy. I don't think there's any doubt the the pope, and his millions of groupies, are hostile to the Latin Mass and it's time to stop pretending that this is anything less than hostility.

I'm not a regular at Rorate Caeli, but I'm spending more and more time here because it is the ONLY place where I can escape the 24/7 hype machine that surrounds Pope Francis and talk rationally about him, strengths and weaknesses.

Joanna H. said...

Sorry, I meant to say that for a long time, the Church was the primary sponsor of the *sciences* and of the arts, including music. Basically, anything cultured or intellectual happened in the Church.

That brings me to another question...why do people constantly talk about coming down to the level of the poor, being poor, etc. Why not raise the poor to the level of the rich by, for example, allowing them to experience of the richness of Heaven and of their faith in the Latin Mass? By encouraging all people to educate and refine themselves?

John Fisher said...

There is clearly a conflict of interest. Members of OTHER Franciscan groups seeking to chanage the nature and spirit of these Friars whom obviously Capuchins and OFM see as rivals. FFI need to oppse this as a group. This Pope is a drip! But Opes come and go and so the superstar will go.

Rick DeLano said...

I have never attended an SSPX Mass in my life. I have never acceptyed the argument that a state of emergency jutifies the irregular canonical situation of the SSPX, after Summorum Pontificum.

Both these things change as of today.



Peter Karl T. Perkins said...

While I sincerely regret this Protocol and agree with much of what the moderators have written here, I think that another perspective is possible. Please note that I write the following as one who has intimate knowledge of the statistics of the Latin Mass, as the moderators know very well.

The Franciscans of the Immaculate are a 'late player' in this game. Until two or three years ago, they were almost unknown in the traditionalist world. Even today, there is not one diocese outside of Italy in which they are the sole providers in a see of every-Sunday Traditional Latin Masses. Even in Italy, this will only lose us two or three dioceses having the T.L.M. each Sunday, if it loses us any at all (since the restriction is not a complete ban and also since it cannot affect priests' right to offer Mass sine populo with invited guests).

For Rome and the bishops, the problem with the Franciscans of the Immaculate is that they were already firmly established widely in dioceses before they started offering Latin Masses on a large scale--or even at all. In canon law, it is difficult for a local bishop to remove a religious order once it is firmly established in his see. That process takes a very long time. Rome and the bishops are concerned that these Franciscans and other institutes which follow their example could spread the Latin Mass far and wide, removing the power of the local bishops to control the T.L.M.

Now, of course, I don't want local bishops to have control over the T.L.M. but we must be realistic. De facto, even after S.P. and U.E.,, they still have that control to a great extent. They exercise it, first, by denying the applications of traditionalist societies and institutes that apply to open apostolates in their sees. They do so secondly by threatening potential celebrants of the Latin Mass, or by implying threats against them. (How would you like to be a hospice chaplain, Father, and never have a parish?: it needn't be actually said, as it is understood.) This is how they continue to 'manage' the Latin Mass. The result is not a total ban everywhere but a slow and gradual integration of the Latin Mass into the life of the Church so that it remains an exception for a small group. We are to be welcomed but not too much encouraged. There is a place for us but the place is small. We are allowed to exist but not allowed to compete with the main fare, which has been handed down from the revolutionaries' false heaven.

That is the way it is. We are not asked to like it but we have to accept it if we wish to see continued slow and gradual growth, such as the recent advances for the Latin Mass in South Africa, New Zealand, the Czech Republic and Costa Rica, to name but a few.

Sure, I'd love to abolish the clown Mass. It would make my life. But to expect that to happen is pure fantasy. God has His reasons for allowing the massive decline of the Church, a decline effected by an erroneous Council, a defective Mass and junk catechesis. He has His reasons. Perhaps it is a recompense for our sins. We must do our best to restore all things in Christ but dreaming won't help.

What worries me most about this new Protocol is that it might be seen as a strike against the Traditional Latin Mass by Pope Francis. What is needed is a firm statement on his part that he will continue to implement S.P. and U.E. Should a firm statement not be forthcoming, I expect that we shall suffer a slow and gradual decline instead of a slow and gradual advance. But if he does nothing for or against S.P., it will not be a disaster for us, only a setback. That would be patently unfair because, at the moment, those adhering to the Traditional Latin Mass are unfairly deprived in Africa, Asia and Latin America. Is the Latin Mass only for Westerners? That's how this looks. The Latin Mass is a treasure for the WHOLE Church, not just for those of European stock.

P.K.T.P.

Stephen sans silencio McGuire said...

To quote the paraphrase of the prophet Jeremiah, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." Why all this mindless conjecture about why this was done?

Do you know what the Pope knows in this matter after months of careful and considerate investigation in which both sides were consulted? If you do, do you also have his charism of discernment in these matter, given him by Christ? Do you govern the Church or does the one appointed by Christ govern the Church? If not, then what is truly being manifest shows an underlying lack of that virtue by which all true Catholics are bound, that is, filial devotion to the Vicar of Christ, not the cult of personality.

If I may quote St. Franics, "Brother Francis promises obedience and reverence to his Holiness Pope Honorius and his lawfully elected successors and to the Church of Rome. The other brothers are bound to obey brother Francis and his successors." Do you place your faith (small f) in the unnamed "sources" of Rorate Caeli (complicated) i.e., members of the real dissident friars of this community who follow the cult of personality in the person of their founder whom they elevate to the level of a "super pope" or is your Faith (capital F) in the Vicar of Christ whom the Lord elevated to be the REAL Pope? Simple questions - simple answers - any choice but the latter leads to "pius Pantheism!"

My fear is elitists never accept or see simple questions with simple answers because the inveterate error of fallen humanity is to fall into pantheism with its many "pius" and secular masks because by its nature it is complicated, i.e., complex and not simple. They insist "I demand a rational explanation for this and rational explanation for that", no room for supernatural faith, that is why St. Augustine warned "the gods of the pagans are devils in human masks." I fear many within the Church wittingly or not are becoming masks of Satan.

"Catholic" gnosticism, the source of all arguments against the Vicar of Christ and the source of the "Traditionalist" position is pure and simple "pius" pantheism which has as its author at all times the one who was and remains "a liar and murderer from the beginning."

Stop claiming devotion to Christ and His Mother while you question everything their Vicar does! These three persons alone are united in such a way that for the Church Militant an attack on one is an attack on all. "Here, oh foolish people, and without understanding: who have eyes, and see not: and ears, and hear not." Jeremiah.

One final question. If "friars of the FFI many of whom adhere to the Gherardini line" (rejected by Pope Benedict) can offer "loyal but unflinching criticism" to diminish "at least 'some'" (hmmm) "elements of the conciliar documents" how do you condemn the modernist who apply the same principle, i.e. "loyal but unflinching criticism" to add to "at least to some of the conciliar documents?" Continued.....

Stephen sans silencio McGuire said...

continued...
The Via Media lies not in a mixture of excess or defect, but stands above them because it is the fruit of God's grace. The "Traditionalist" and the "Modernist" share much more in principle, especially, in how grace is produced than they oppose each other in peccadillos.

The Church mission is the salvation of souls. Without this understanding, the Mass can become a form of idolatry. For the modernist, the Novus Ordo, for the traditionalist, the Vetus Ordo.

The Mass is a matter of supernatural Faith. The Mass is not greater or lesser because of the accidentals always subject to change or reform. It is either the Mass or not the Mass. The gates of Hell cannot prevail against the Church and on earth Her head liturgist is and always will be the Divinely appointed Vicar. Today his name is Francis. He cannot permit an invalid or, as members of the FFI, maintain a "lesser" that is, not as holy a Mass (see Fr. Alessandro Appolonia.)

If at this time you will not think with the Church (the Sentire cum Ecclesia quoted in the decree against the FFI) at least have the intellectual honesty of the early modernist who refused to take St. Pope Pius X's oath against modernism.

To quote an author who witnessed first hand the ravages of the war, WWII, in which the philosophies of excess and defect, rampart capitalism and fascism, reeked their horror "I thought I heard Satan laughing."

Clare said...

St. Francis, in his time, was #1 totally obedient to the Pope and he would be horrified and embarrassed to read the article and comments on this blog. Imagine this - maybe Holy Father Francis knows something you guys don't. Gee - is that possible??? Every time the Holy Father turns around you are all are watching for some misstep that indicates he is - OMG! - not Pope Benedict. It is not obedient to criticize the duly elected Holy Father. The Latin Mass is a means to an end - it is NOT the end itself. I know this is shocking - but God does understand English.

Bill Cloonan said...

Would you feel better if the Holy Father told reporters that he would judge gay priests as if he was the real Judge?

Bill Cloonan said...

It is true (two FFI priests have publicly confirmed it on their blogs) and it is not abominable.

Bill Cloonan said...

Why would such a thing cause despair? Certainly Jesus and the gift of his love mean more to you than a particular rite of the Mass.

Bill Cloonan said...

Well that is very Catholic and unitive of you to say.

christopher schaefer said...

Note that this was the same tactic used by Curial officials during the pontificate of Paul VI. As Benedict clearly pointed out, the traditional Mass never was officially forbidden. Where is Francis' signature?

Jamey said...

"I have this feeling that our Holy Father's desire to be popular is informing his decisions. He cannot bear being unpopular. This is his weakness."

Hammer. Nail. Head.

Until there is a marked turnaround and a Pope who speaks the uncomfortable truth in no uncertain terms that will offend the general public, God's wrath will continue to fall on the Church and ultimately the world. I think at this point it will be an Akita/Quito type purifying chastisement that will ultimately usher in the restoration as foretold by genuine apparitions/visions - perhaps this was the meaning behind the lightning strikes on St Peters after Benedict's abdication.

john said...

And yes, they can and should celebrate TLM. It can't be banned, they have no right. That was made clear by BenedictXVI. Give the Pope a list of all the heretical groups leading many to hell (it will have to be partial because the list would be excessively long). Interesting to see why they can't seem to fix those issues. I would think the superiors of the order could handle things well.

Bill Cloonan said...

You are being silly. Surely you know the Holy Father MAKES liturgical law and is not subject to the laws decreed by any former pontiff.

Bill Cloonan said...

I am a former novice of the community and I can tell you that the superior in question did not hate the EF and often celebrated it. What he was opposed to were people trying to tear the church down from the seams by making false claims about the authority of the Second Vatican Council.

As a Third Order Member of this community, you should be deeply ashamed of your careless words against this holy priest.

Peter Karl T. Perkins said...

We see the usual fools posting here yet again. No point in refuting them. They confirm themselves in their folly. They refuse to see what their senses tell them because it does not fit their desires. They are subjectivists, men who prefer to believe what they wish rather than what is evident. I refer to the liberals and neo-cons.

The truth is that the Council and the New Mass are anathema at least in their disordered spirit. It is the Freemasonic spirit of Hell. Bishop Williamson, not Bishop Fellay, happens to be correct in his attitude to this den of liberal vipers. But there is little we can do on this but pray. The Williamsonians will do what their consciences prompt them to do, which is good and right. Practically-speaking, however, their influence and their presence will be small. Perhaps they are the remnant at the end of time, but I don't think that our Lord wishes to end this circus that soon. Bishop Fellay is obviously in secret negotiations with Bishop Ratzinger. Let us hope that this little incident teaches him a lesson. If he accepts anything less juridically than an international diocese for tradition (or its equivalent), he and his Society are finished. There must be freedom to implant apostolates--a right to do so without the permission of the bishop of the territory in question. He believes that he can fight for the truth while wedded to the partisans of error. Perhaps he can but this is a dangerous proposal and too risky to be the right course. However, again, there is little we can do but pray.

Some archtrads will not bend but they will have little effect on the ground. Perhaps it is their place to keep the faith pure during this crisis.

P.K.T.P.

backtothefuture said...

To those that find it wrong questioning the holy father, let me ask you. Was it wrong to question Paul VI when he gave mason Bugnini free reign to demolish the liturgy? Was it wrong to question him when he had 6 heretics advising on how the new liturgy should be? Seems like when it comes to popes, nobody has a problem questioning what Alexander VI did, but you can't question any other.

ka said...

Francis through Benedict, eh?

CatholicDesigner said...

Many prayers, in sorrow, for our Church and our Holy Father. Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.

Really? said...

Get over yourself...

Peter Karl T. Perkins said...

Predictions for this papacy. March of 2017 is the 50th anniversary of that absurd and grotesque encyclical of Paul VI, "Populorum Progressio". This Pope will commemorate it with something even worse. Get ready for more red economics, more error in so-called 'social justice'.

There will be an end to celibacy in the priesthood.

There will be a change to the Code of Canons so that the 'Liturgy of the Herd' can fulfil the Sunday obligation. This Liturgy will be presided over by laics, including wymym in pantsuits. But it will also be 'presided over' by priests. If a priest can say Mass, he can also preside at this farce, at which pre-consecrated Hosts will be distributed. Bulletins will simply list 'Sunday liturgies' in the future and you will never know whether the 'service' you're attending will be Mass or a Liturgy of the Herd, whether presided over by celibate priest, married priest, layman or lay wymin in pantsuit. You never know.

Wymyn will also be promoted to curial positions (e.g. prefects of congregations) and will be elevated to the Sacred College of Cardinals.

Get ready for 'synodality', the next step in collegiality. It means giving juridical power to bishops' conferences where a majority of bishops take a vote. Now there's a formula for disaster. Just let that gang of Marxists loose on the Church corporately.

There might be some rulings on the true meaning of religious liberty. After all, the budding theologian in the Holy Office is just itching to do something useful for the first time in his life. He's not content to smear our Lady, the bastard.

Despite all of this, there will be an attempt to suck the S.S.P.X into a juridical structure. To be adequately tempting, it must be an international ordinariate or diocese or apostolic administration, and certainly not a personal prelature. Rome has been proposing the p.p. structure so that she can pull out the real deal to pull in Fellay at the right time. It must be so.

It's back to the sixties. Don't throw away your tie-dye chasubles, fathers.

P.K.T.P.

Enoch said...

We can see from many of the comments posted here that there is a lot of animosity toward the Tridentine Latin Mass, and tradition in general. They make the usual claims: that we're disobedient, that we should be ashamed of ourselves, that we possibly worship the Latin Mass (idolatry), that the form of Mass doesn't matter, etc.

They do not understand tradition, no matter how well they believe they express themselves on the subject. And no matter what they say, we will not be disuaded that the Latin Mass is better than the OF. It IS better. Traditionalists will serve as a reminder to modern Catholics that the Catholic church did not begin in 1968. The Mass and devotions that formed and nurtured thousands of saints and holy people will continue to be a source of beauty and inspiration. We are not going to go away, or be silent.

Adfero said...

Cath Def, I hope you keep reading here. But you're young and have no idea what happened before Vatican II. The TLM has always been said, this isn't new since Benedict. Go read some Church history. For your sake, I'll keep your comments unpublished. You'll thank me one day.

Adfero said...

Iowapapist, that blog will never get posted here. His attacks on us in the past were disgusting, and he will never get attention here.

James Jordan said...

The news media is reporting that the pope today gave a plenary indulgence to all homosexual clergy, forgiving all past and future sins, including child molesting, and he said "homosexual priests must be forgiven" and "we don't have the right to not forget" -- i.e. the victims must be forgotten so the pedophiles can be 'forgiven.'

Truth Will Out said...

To Joanna H.: THANK YOU. WELL SAID. EVERY SINGLE WORD.

Waverley said...

None so blind as they that will not see.

Meanwhile, I believe the Austrian heretics and their episcopal supporters continue unmolested, Ricca's place is secure, sodomite clergy have been given a clear signal that they have nothing to fear, and the world's media lavishes praise on he whom they should hate, because the Church's message will never be that of the world.

But there I go, not being 'Catholic' and trusting that Francis will make everything better, because he is the Pope and therefore on some kind of autopilot ...

Mr Perkins, your forecasts sound all too achievable from here.

Angelo said...

Cosmos, Fr. Angel Sotelo offers the TLM, and splendidly. One must understand that Fr. Angel Sotelo must speak in the manner he did, as his Bishop is a modernist who is a sworn enemy of the TLM. If Fr. Angel Sotelo were to speak his mind honestly, his Bishop would roast him.

Spartan Warrior said...

I am very disappointed... The FFI should be divided into 2 orders - Traditional and Novus Ordo and let the Friars choose the order they feel more comfortable with.

Spartan Warrior said...

Apparently Pope Francis is NOT against Traditional Liturgy and recognizes that it has been lost in the Catholic Church! Here is his comment on the flight from Brazil:“The Orthodox Churches have preserved the liturgy which is so beautiful. We’ve lost sight slightly of the meaning of worship. They worship God and they sing about it; time is immaterial to them. One day e were speaking about Western Europe and they said that “ex Oriente lux” “ex Oriente luxus”, meaning that light comes from the East and consumerism and wealth which do a lot of harm, come from the West. The Orthodox Church preserves the beauty of God being at the centre of everything. When you read Dostoevsky you can really feel the Russian and Oriental spirit. We are deeply in need of this breath of fresh air, this light from the East.”

Angelo said...

Isn't it great to be a Traditionalist? History proves to us that persecution makes one's Faith stronger and causes fast spiritual growth. The modernist heretics are only making us stronger, they are adding fuel to our fire of love for Christ and his Church. The more they demonstrate their hate for Tradition, the stronger our determination to defend it. If we take a new look at Fatima through all that Sister Lucia recounted, we will clearly see that Our Lady of Fatima was preparing Traditionalists for this time in history. Just one example is the vision of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with the Triune God present, with the words Graces and Mercy flowing like water at the right side of the Temple ect... Viva Christo Rey!

JFM said...

All this talk about "Nobody knows the reasons..." is absurd. The Vatican is talking about the need for transparency. Then be transparent, for crying out loud. Spell out the reasons for the decree. They really want it both ways. But in this age of Internet communication, that simply won't work. Even after all the scandals, we still have to learn about everything through journalists, and never through a thorough accounting of the Church. Absurd. They need to be considerate of the Laity and not simply power play like this.

Jack said...

**James Jordan said...
The news media is reporting that the pope today gave a plenary indulgence to all homosexual clergy, forgiving all past and future sins, including child molesting, and he said "homosexual priests must be forgiven" and "we don't have the right to not forget" -- i.e. the victims must be forgotten so the pedophiles can be 'forgiven.'**

Doesn't it bother you all to post libel like this that has no basis in reality?

Pope Francis said NOTHING resembling these words.

Edgar said...

"Six out of 800 members of the order of the Franciscans of the Immaculate (FI) have made a submission to the Roman Congregation for Religious. A small minority. Thus, they protested against the decision of the Order's leadership, to use the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite and to remain bi-ritual for the pastoral care of the faithful. Some of the six dissidents are now no longer in the Order, they were excluded because of disobedience and indiscipline. It may be argued that only a pretext was sought for the Congregation of Religious to take action against the exemplary order. The radical intervention erschereckenden shows a lack of liturgical sensibility. Only such a deficiency may explain a ham fisted methods of this magnitude, which deprives the heart of religious life for four branches with more than 100 monasteries and houses and it seems to be the opinion that the Old Rite being simply replaced by the new is desirable. Upon the disempowerment of the Founder and the imposition of a Commission is expected to prevent a reaction to this by the Order."

http://eponymousflower.blogspot.mx/2013/07/assassination-attempt-on-old-mass-input.html

Barbara said...

" While i disagree with some comments Pope Francis has made, i am surprised see some of the remarks made about our Holy Father that have been left on here. "

Tgates, you are right that due respect should always be given to the Vicar of Christ because of his high office - in fact the highest possible in the world.

This Catholic here expects a lot of him - to confirm me (us) in the One True Faith and comfort me (us)
when under persecution - which as far I can understand is simply - always.

When the Pope does not do this - and Pope Francis hasn't been doing it very well - without ambiguity - clearly - for the past four months - then one begins to question his ways.

A pope is not ABOVE criticism and in fact we can see this quite clearly that over the past 4 months Pope Francis has been the "darling" of the world wide media (you wouldn't believe the honey dripping over the newspaper and media reports here in Italy - we will all get diabetes very soon!)...it is a bad, bad sign - and why does the world love Pope Francis so much - that is the question? Check it out - and you will see for yourself - it is not 'normal' that the world loves the Supreme Head of the Catholic Church so much and forgives him everything - something is far from right...

I personally do not feel strengthened or comforted by Pope Francis. But Our Lord has allowed this papacy for his own reasons - I for one, hope to preserve my Catholic Faith Identity through it ...

It is NOT sinful for a Catholic to dislike a Pope - but we ought to pray for him most intensely -

We cannot put proscuitto on our eyes and ears and switch off our brain out of some false notion that just because we don't like a pope and do not like AT ALL what he is doing that we are not real Catholics....

Gratias said...

Dear P.K.T.P:

Today I was driving home and wondering what Mr. Perkings might think of all this. Thank you for posting.

Gratias

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

Pope Francis might simply be an inexperienced politician in Rome, being used to fight battles that started long before he became Pope. In which case, he has to learn fast.

reclaimingthesacred.com said...

I am sorry but that, to me, seems wrong on so many levels.

Worst of all, it appears to be an incredibly unkind dig straight at the former Pope - on the feast day of St. Benedict?!

That is a massive message, IMHO.

I am tired of the seeming "digs" that keep being made at Benedict, and this is just cruel. The man is old, he has paid his dues, and now he is being "dug" at as his health fails?

That is cruel and unkind beyond words.

Furthermore, I did not know that anyone can forbid the Latin Mass.

The fight to save the Church is on!

objectiv1 said...

I am finding it difficult to argue with the Sedevacantists.

The behavior of the hierarchy of the Church is making it more difficult each year.

Konstantin said...

Barbara said:

..."over the past 4 months Pope Francis has been the "darling" of the world wide media (you wouldn't believe the honey dripping over the newspaper and media reports here in Italy - we will all get diabetes very soon!)...it is a bad, bad sign - and why does the world love Pope Francis so much - that is the question? Check it out - and you will see for yourself - it is not 'normal' that the world loves the Supreme Head of the Catholic Church so much and forgives him everything - something is far from right..."

It is indeed a very bad sign when the world loves a Pope so much.
It contradicts the words of our Lord who prophezised persecution.

Waverley said...

I had not considered this at all, that on the Feast of St Benedict our +Francis so visibly refutes his predecessor of that illustrious name, by hammering those faithful Franciscans as his first show of force.

Either an unfortunate 'statement' is being made by the Bishop of Rome, or the Lord of the Universe is marking this event out for us in a bold font.

Roger Buck said...

To P.T.K.P.

I am very grateful here for your return as well.

I have missed your reports about the TLM worldwide and would like to hear more regarding " the recent advances for the Latin Mass in South Africa, New Zealand, the Czech Republic and Costa Rica, to name but a few."

Your reference to Bishop Fellay and Ratzinger ... !

So much else ... frightening.

But you are an acute observer and I would love to hear any more you have to observe.

Thank you for coming back.

Jamey said...

The left apostate pro abort, pro gay "marriage" media personalities here in Australia are loving Pope Francis.

What Bishop Lefebvre wrote in 1990 in Spiritual Journey applies to our current circumstance and once again with laser like precision:

"The current Pope and bishops no longer hand down Our Lord Jesus Christ, but rather a sentimental, superficial, charismatic religiosity, through which, as a general rule, the true grace of the Holy Ghost no longer passes. This new religion is not the Catholic religion; it is sterile, incapable of sanctifying society and the family.

One single thing is necessary for the continuation of the Catholic Church: fully Catholic bishops, who make no compromise with error, who found Catholic seminaries, where young candidates for the priesthood can nourish themselves with the milk of true doctrine, placing Our Lord Jesus Christ at the center of their intellects, of their wills, of their hearts; who have a living faith, profound charity, a devotion without bounds, uniting them to Our Lord. They will ask, as did St. Paul, that we pray for them, that they advance in understanding and wisdom of the Mysterium Christi, of the mystery of Christ, where they will discover all of the divine treasures."

Michael Ortiz said...


In Maine, for instance, there already are "Communion" services without priests, without the Sacrifice of the Mass.

I like the comment from another blog that the "Catholic Church eats Popes for breakfast" or something to that effect. Good Popes are a blessing; not-so good Popes are a trial, which, really, is also a blessing.

Pray for the Pope, offer sacrfices for him.

God's arm has not been shortened.

sarto2012 said...

Care to enlighten us then??

Rev. Anthony Cekada said...

For trads, Francis's anti-TLM initiative has understandably drawn most of the attention.

But meanwhile, some of his other pronouncements on the road to Rio and back, as well as his speech to CELAM, hint at a radical program to come on other fronts as well.

• On the plane back, Francis hints at dumping the Catholic teaching and practice on giving sacraments to the divorced/remarried (i.e., adulterers):

"Times have changed and the Church faces many problems,.. I think the time for mercy has come as John Paul II predicted by introducing the Feast of Divine Mercy. Divorced people can take communion, it is those who have divorced and remarried that cannot. Here I must add that the orthodox follow the theology of economics and allow second marriages. When the commission of eight cardinals meets at the beginning of October we will discuss how to proceed. The Church is taking a very close look at pastoral initiatives for marriage. My predecessor in Buenos Aires, Cardinal Quarracino always used to say: “I consider half of today’s marriages to be invalid because people get married without realising it means forever. They do it out of social convenience, etc...” The issue of invalidity needs to be looked into as well.”

• On charismatics:"Then I got to know them better and I was won over. I saw the work that they did and I said mass for them in Buenos Aires every year. I think movements are necessary; they are a gift from the Holy Spirit. The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”

• On "bishop of Rome": "Placing emphasis on the number one title, that is, Bishop of Rome, favours ecumenism."

• On the advisory commission: "The ethos of the work being done by the commission of eight cardinals – it was important they came from outside – is that of developing the relationship between synodality and primacy."

• The CELAM speech lays out what seems to be an ecclesiastical restructuring (at least in South America) along the lines of the '60s liberation theology/base communities initiative — stuff like good pastors "following their flocks" which are led by the Holy Spirit, dialoguing, etc., etc.

The latter two clearly indicate that Francis wants a radical overhaul of ecclesiastical institutions and the whole decision-making process in the Church.

The "synodality" language should be particularly scary. I believe it portends "synods" of bishops (if not clergy and laity) on the international and national level that will be given real legislative authority, Francis has already praised the Orthodox schismatics for this set-up, and has alluded to the importance of "synodality" several times as a way of implementing Vatican II's teaching on collegiality.

Then the fun for the modernists will really begin. They couldn't pull this off in the '60s and '70s, but it looks like Bergoglio will give them another bite of the apple.

Dr. Timothy J. Williams said...

Susanna, on the very page you recommend we read - where a certain Fr. Maximilian M. Dean of the FFI comes to the defense of Francis - the good Franciscan also posts a thoroughly dreadful video of himself, guitar in hand, sitting directly in front of the Blessed Sacrament (his back to it, of course, treating the altar as a stage) crooning the type of dreadful, saccharine tune that drives traditional Catholics out of the pews. I have to wonder if he is not one the the Friars who complained about the "imposition" of the Latin Mass.

LeonG said...

Why all the fuss? This was predictable. I have stated this when the Motu Propriu appeared first. The actual authority for The Latin Mass is perpetuallly guaranteed. Have Faith in the pre-conciliar guarantees for the Holy Mass in Latin. Popes can do what they like but our response should be to obey Sacred liturgical Tradition. No pope has the authority to abrogate it. Stand firm with the priests who do so too.

iowapapist said...

Adfero:

Thank you for the admonition ("Iowapapist, that blog will never get posted here. His attacks on us in the past were disgusting, and he will never get attention here."). I was not aware of the history of the individual in question. I will try to be more prudent in the future. It does seem that the Evil One is intent on dividing us. Historians tell us that there have been crises of greater magnitude in the Church than those at present, but this one is that which we are all living through. I thank Rorate Caeli for the fine aggregation of information provided on this blog. Mater Christi, ora pro nobis.

David said...

"not-so good Popes are a trial, which, really, is also a blessing."

Yes, I suppose in the same way as being punched repeatedly in the stomach is a "blessing". We may, theoretically, remember to offer it up, but for most people in will just result in internal bleeding and for some organ failure.

Janusius Sancto said...

I am sick and tired of Fr. Z and all the sudo-traditional Fr. Z types. I am sorry for using that term, I really am. I normally abhor such words but truly they do apply to some. No wonder we have had such a hard time restoring tradition and continue to do so. It seems so many only 'like' tradition in the same way they might like the color red more than they like the color blue. And I am truly sick of these people coming into every blog and forum originally designed for traditionalist and taking over the comment sections. Can we not have one place where we can go to read and comment without having to deal with the aggravation? I know how this must sound, really, I do. As I said before, this is not normally how I feel, but I am totally fed up! Rorate was right when Pope Francis was first elected, Rorate has been right ever since he was elected, and Rorate is still right today - these sudo-traditionalist will have us all back in the ghetto (if any of us really ever got out) and maybe even worse by the time we are done because they refuse to take the bags off their heads!

lugifan77 said...

I think the following quotations are most appropriate here:

From Cardinal Pacelli in 1931 (later Pius XII), this incredibly prophetic statement:

"I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul…. I hear all around me innovators who wish to dismantle the Sacred Chapel, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her ornaments and make her feel remorse for her historical past.

A day will come when the civilized world will deny its God, when the Church will doubt as Peter doubted. She will be tempted to believe that man has become God. In our churches, Christians will search in vain for the red lamp where God awaits them. Like Mary Magdalene, weeping before the empty tomb, they will ask, “Where have they taken Him?”


From Pope Paul VI in 1977:

"The tail of the devil is functioning in the disintegration of the Catholic world. The darkness of Satan has entered and spread throughout the Catholic Church even to its summit. Apostasy, the loss of the faith, is spreading throughout the world and into the highest levels within the Church."

From Fr. J Alonso, official archivist of Fatima 1965 - 1981:

"In the period preceding the great triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, terrible things are to happen. These form the content of the third part of the Secret. What are they? If “in Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved,”…it can be clearly deduced from this that in other parts of the Church these dogmas are going to become obscure or even lost altogether…. Perhaps it even refers to the failures of the upper hierarchy of the Church."

From Cardinal Oddi:

"What happened in 1960 that might have been seen in connection with the Secret of Fatima? The most important event is without a doubt the launching of the preparatory phase of the Second Vatican Council. Therefore I would not be surprised if the Secret had something to do with the convocation of Vatican II… I would not be surprised if the Third Secret alluded to dark times for the Church; grave confusions and troubling apostasies within Catholicism itself…"

From Cardinal Ciappi, personal theologian to four popes, including John Paul II:

"In the Third Secret, it is foretold, among other things, that the great apostasy in the Church will begin at the top."

Janusius Sancto said...

Here is an interesting read and a rebuttal to Fr. Z -

EF Mass threat, the abuse crisis, ‘whimsical’ liturgically dancing bishops: so what can we do?

Posted by Kate Edwards at 30.7.13

Australia Incognita

australiaincognita.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/ef-mass-threat-abuse-crisis-whimsical.html

David said...

Fr Cekada,

I guess all this must be making you waver in your position of sede vacante, huh?

“The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”

Perhaps we should ask a certain group of Franciscans about this ‘freedom’.

7fbc6254-eb65-11e2-85d7-000bcdcb471e said...

Msgr Wasdworth said, In this very specific case, I think it has to be borne in mind that the Franciscans of the Immaculate were not founded as an EF community. Their founder Fr Stefano Manelli imposed the EF after Summorum Pontificum. Some of their friars in parishes were understandably very unhappy about this for pastoral reasons and it was clearly something they had not foreseen or chosen and was imposed in many cases without adequate catechesis or preparation. It now appears that they have succeeded in making their grievance heard in Rome and overturning the decision of their Superior General.

We don't know, of course, what transpired in that community which brought about this overkill reaction. At the same time, it's always rather bigoted the Novus Ordo is always imposed on people. Why is it the Tridentine Mass is never mandated to clear up issues, other told they have to offer the Tridentine Masses? They force the Novus Ordo on those who don't want it and are such a Scrooge about the Tridentine Mass for those who want such Masses or deny them altogether. Curious how this is never considered to be uncharitable. Sand at the beach is a given but to kick it on people makes it entirely different, and the Church forcing the Novus Ordo on the Faithful is same thing. IMO.

Matt

Adfero said...

Iowapapist, no worries. I didn't think you knew that just wanted you to know why your comment didn't get through.

benjoyce said...

I regularly attend "Our Lady's Chapel" in New Bedford Ma. USA run by the FFI.

They have a Latin Mass on Fridays at 6pm but all other Masses are NO. They are all striclty obedient to the Magistarium. In fact so much so, it is difficult sometimes to talk to them about anything due to the threat of disobedience.

My suspicion is that Pope Francis is a very good pope and that this situation will be clarified/modified in the future.

Also, my suspicion is that the liberal/masonic clique (wolves in sheep's clothing) are orchestrators of this suppression

Jamey said...

"I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in Her liturgy, Her theology and Her soul…"

I have expended much energy trying to locate the original earliest source of this. The earliest I can find is the book by Msgr Roche published in 1972. Apparently there was some exaggeration in that book. Someone on fisheaters mentioned there was a 1959 version but I haven't been able to corroborate that. Would be nice if someone could shed some light.

Interesting Paul VI's various comments about diabolical infiltration when his work was greatly responsible for the catastrophe. Throwing out such comments would be a perfect way for an infiltrator to divert attention if indeed that was the case.

Steve Calovich said...

If we have to attend a devoutly said Novus Ordo Mass under obedience, you can bet the graces given will surpass those of a TLM. It's all good.

Edward More said...

Wow!! 199 comments so far!!

I guess I'll chime in with my little comment and make it to 200 : )

All I will say is this: I guess the good Lord did not make us wait long to enable us to see what Bishop of Rome Bergoglio had in store for holy mother Church!

The wolves in the Church have indeed been able to pick their choice for the papacy! The "Obama" of the Church is indeed at the helm of the rudder of the bark of Peter, being tossed unmercifully by the waves and, were it not for some miracle of the Lord, one of those waves would have surely smashed the whole bark to pieces by now...

Any meanwhile, Ricca continues comfortably in his post, Bergoglio apparently completely unconcerned about having an OPENLY sodomite priest in his service!!! But I suppose that shouldn't surprise us all that much, given that as president of the Argentine Bishop's conference he was the ONLY bishop to propose that the government approve of same sex unions as opposed to same sex marriage as some sort of compromise. Because - according to Bergoglio, which would explain his appointment of homo priest Ricca -there is isn't all that much wrong with homo relations is there now, a heinous sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance and that caused the annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Our Lady conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!

Edward More said...

Jamey:

I too have had some interest in knowing the original source of that extremely famous quote by Eugenio Pacelli comes from. Does Msgr provide any sources/bibliography in his book "Pius XII devant l'histoire" (I think that's the original title if I'm not mistaken).

Good luck in your "detective" work : )

God Bless to all the fellow readers here at rorate.

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