Rorate Caeli

Franciscans of the Immaculate - Intervention is interested in only one matter: the Traditional Mass

From the questionnaire sent by the Apostolic Visitator designated by the Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life (the Congregation for Religious), it is clear that only one concern was in the mind of Cardinal-Prefect João Braz de Aviz: the "Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite", both the Traditional Mass and the Traditional Breviary. And, obviously, trying to find somewhere excuses to revert the legitimate decisions that, while fully preserving the "Ordinary Form" (the Paul VI Mass and Divine Office), favored the Extraordinary Form inside the community. Which is what finally led to the current Intervention.

The questionnaire, in Italian, was made available by the blog Franciscan Truth, indicated to us by a commentator in one of our comment boxes. The translation was made by Rorate, as usual.

We report, you decide:

_______________________
The Franciscans of the Immaculate Commission
PARTICULAR QUESTIONS


(With regard to the following questions, besides the space reserved for these on this sheet, you may attach and/or send me all of your considerations in other ways also (e-mail – letters).


  1. What is your opinion of the Superior General’s style of government?
  2. What is your opinion of the Superior General’s decisions in liturgical matters?
  3. What is your opinion about the Superior General’s decisions regarding the formation of the young religious and the candidates to the priesthood?
  4. What is your opinion on the relations between the Superior General and the Congregation of the Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate?
  5. What is your opinion on the relations between the Superior General and the General Council?
  6. What is your opinion regarding the collaboration in the governing of  the Institute between the Superior General and the General Council?
  7. How often are you in contact with the Superior General and the members of the General Council?
  8. Do you consider that the introduction of the Extraordinary Form in the Institute: is a  good thing?
  • YES  (because….
  • NO (because…
              it helps communion among the members:
    • YES (because….
    • NO ( because….
              it meets the needs of evangelization:
    • YES (because….
    • NO (because….
              it meets the spiritual needs of contemporary man:
    • YES ( because….
    • NO (because…
               it satisfies the desires of the Superior General:
    • YES (because….
    • NO (because…
               it is requested by the Second Vatican Council:
    • YES (because….
    • NO (because….
               it responds to the “mens” of the Holy Father:
                 (because……………………………..


  1. Do you think the introduction of the Extraordinary Form is desired
   by the Pope?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because…
               by the General Chapter?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because…
               by the Superior General?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because….
              by the General Council?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because…
              by the Chapter of your Community?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because…


10)  Do you think that the introduction of the Extraordinary Form in the Institute suits your spirituality?
    • YES (because…
    • NO (because….


11)  If you had to choose between the two forms (Ordinary and extraordinary) for all the        members of the Institute, which one would you choose and why?


12)  In your view, what is the Body of Government put in charge by the Constitution of the F.I for the introduction of the Extraordinary form in the Institute?


***


With regard to the introduction of the extraordinary form in the Institute, the book of Minutes  of the General Chapter on pages 49-50 (see below at the end of the questionnaire)  affirms what follows:
“[…] It was asked if the application of the “Motu Proprio” by  Benedict XVI on the Tridentine Mass would appear in the Directory and how frequent  the celebration would it have to be in the week.  Father Stefano responded that  stability, wherever possible, should be arrived at on a daily basis. Then it was asked how to proceed in the parishes and dioceses  where there was no sensitivity to this rite and how to resolve its transmission  on the radio as it foresaw many silent prayers.  The capitularies agreed on the superability of these problems and Padre Stefano stressed the importance, above all, of the conventual  Mass wherever  possible.  Finally, on the differences  of the liturgical calendars, a new document is expected from the Pope.  Regarding the directives  of internal order, the General Council would draw up an applicative protocol in function of this pontifical document.”
***
13)  In your view, did the Superior General  in unison with the General Council on the 21st of November 2011,with the “LITURGICAL NORMATIVE FOR THE “VETUS ORDO” (attached to this questionnaire) act by going beyond the decisions of the General Chapter in 2008, and [thus] creating some discontent in the Institute or did they actuate in the Institute, that which was foreseen , and by the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum («Si communitates Institutorum vitae consecratae atque Societatum vitae apostolicae iuris sivpontificii sive dioecesani quae in celebratione conventuali seu “communitatis” in oratoriis propriis celebrationem sanctae Missae iuxta editionem Missalis Romani anno 1962 promulgatam habere cupiunt, id eis licet. Si singula communitas aut totum Institutum vel Societas tales celebrations saepe vel plerumque vel permanenter perficere vult, res a Superioribus maioribus ad normam iuris et secundum leges et statuta particularia decernatur.»),by the Instruction of the Pontifical Commision, Ecclesia Dei, Universae Ecclesia on the application of the Apostolic Letter, Motu Proprio given by Summorum Pontificum by His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI and by the directives given by the General Chapter?


14) If the Superior General and the General Council, with the “LITURGICAL NORMATIVE FOR THE “ VETUS ORDO” of the 21st Novemeber 2011 had gone beyond  what was established by the General Chapter in 2008, in your view, what should the response of the members of the Institute be ?


Obey blindly, because……..


Disobey, because………


Retain the Normative not binding, because…….


Request the extraordinary convocation of a General Chapter, because…….



IN BRIEF, TICK THE HEADINGS THAT YOU RETAIN THE MOST VALID WITH REFERENCE TO THE ISSUES BELOW


THE SUPERIOR GENERAL’S STYLE OF GOVERNMENT
Everything goes fundamentally well.
Problems exist resolvable by the Ordinary General Chapter.
Serious problems exist resolvable by a Extraordinary General Chapter.
Very serious problems exist that require an external Commissioner of the Institute.


THE DECISIONS OF THE SUPERIOR GENERAL ON LITURGICAL MATTERS
Everything goes fundamentally well.
Problems exist resolvable by the Ordinary General Chapter.
Serious problems exist resolvable by an Extraordinary General Chapter.
Very serious problems exist that require an external Commissioner of the Institute.


THE DECISIONS OF THE SUPERIOR GENERAL IN REFERENCE TO THE FORMATION OF YOUNG RELIGIOUS AND CANDIDATES TO THE PRIESTHOOD
Everything goes fundamentally well.
Problems exist resolvable by the Ordinary General Chapter.
Serious problems exist resolvable by an Extraordinary General Chapter.
Very serious problems exist that require an external Commissioner of the Institute.


THE RELATIONS OF THE SUPERIOR GENERAL WITH THE CONGREGATION OF THE FRANCISCAN SISTERS OF THE IMMACULATE
Everything goes fundamentally well.
Problems exist resolvable by the Ordinary General Chapter.
Serious problems exist resolvable by an Extraordinary General Chapter.
Very serious problems exist that require an external Commissioner of the Institute.




Date and place of compilation………………………………………….
(after having sworn tacto pectore of having answered according to conscience and truth)


Signature………………………………………………………………...


P.S. Put your signature on every sheet of paper of this questionnaire

_______________________

75 comments:

Giovanni A. Cattaneo said...

No, I do not believe that the questions where manipulative in nature.

However that does not mean that the interpretation of said questionnaire can not be manipulated.

Cristóbal Orrego said...

The poll does not seem to be tendentious or manipulative, but just to address the issue that in fact was at the origin of the request by some friars of the intervention by the Holy See.

One may think that there are mistakes in some questions, that seem to imply opposition between the extraordinary form and the ordinary form, against the mind of the Pope (Benedict XVI, the pope who authored SP). There might be some other mistakes in the way of conducting the poll, but I would not think they amount to manipulation or bad faith at all.

There is a great opportunity here for the brothers of the Immaculate to show their internal union to their founder. If that is achieved (for instance, if 99% of replies are in favour of the founder and of the decision by him and the general chapter to apply SP within the institute, in obedience to Pope Benedict), the visitation should finish soon, perhaps with the convocation of an extraordinary general chapter.

Last, the fact that the only concern is about SP is a good thing, since it shows the health of the institute.

Josephus Muris Saliensis said...

Yes! But it stands wonderfully as a hostage to fortune to backfire.

The young friars, under the guidance of the Holy Ghost, have an opportunity to speak with the mind of the Church.

It will be hard, with such a direct questionnaire, and the blessed transparency of the internet, to ignore their responses.

Adfero said...

Giovanni, if I wanted to gauge how a man was as a husband, and the only questions I asked him were: one, how hard do you beat your wife? And, two, how often do you beat her?

Is that a fair and thorough assessment of the husband?

Magdalene said...

The younger friars who were not solemnly professed were not allowed to express their opinion as far as I understand. The newer vocations are of the more traditional bent.

Giovanni A. Cattaneo said...

Adfero, I am sorry but I do not agree with your interpretation that the questions were in their face biased against the Vetus Ordo or the use of it.

On the contrary they were formulated in order to answer the question/questions at hand which were posed by those who were unhappy with the implementation of the TLM in the order.

I guess you would not be satisfied unless the members of the order had been asked about their favorite colors or ice cream flavor?

Physiocrat said...

The design of questionnaires of this kind needs to be done by someone qualified in social science. Questions have to be clear, unambiguous and neutral, and the overall questionnaire needs to be capable of analysis so that object conclusions can be drawn. On these criteria, this questionnaire strikes as unprofessional, to say the least.

Why is are people so concerned about trying to stamp out the Tridentine Mass? If it is irrelevant it will fade away from lack of interest. If it is not, then people should leave the matter alone. This is just stirring up unnecessary division.

One of the implications of Summorum Pontificum is that the Novus Ordo Mass had enforced on the basis of misrepresentation since the Tridentine Mass had never been abrogated and therefore the whole indult business was unnecessary - why didn't Paul VI tell the petitioners that in 1971, and if he did not know, who kept the information from him and why?

Gratias said...

This inquisition is a scandal. The EF mass is legitimate and here the Commissar makesit sound like it was a bad idea from Fr. Stefano the superior. How long have you beaten your wife for is an apt summation of the sense of this shameful push-poll (American expression for questionnaire that seeks to change opinions).

How about the 7:00 am EF Mass at the church of the Annunziata in Lungotevere Vaticano 1? It was offered by these poor Franciscans of the Immaculate and was attended by workers at the nearby Vatican. These V2 cardinals want to finish the Traditional Mass, that is what is going on here.

This "Sentire cum Ecclesia" gets more and more difficult.

Adfero said...

Giovanni, if they were asked their favorite color and ice creme, at least it wouldn't look so biased!

I've conducted numerous, professional polls in my career. This is pathetic, to say the least.

And, the storyline behind this has been it wasn't Bout the Mass, but about schismatic thoughts in the manner of the SSPX. Where is that in these questions? Nowhere to be found, because this isn't about extremism, it's about extinguishing the fire of restoration that's spreading.

Genty said...

The questionnaire is, imo, a classic example of being led by the nose.

Cristóbal Orrego said...

We should not judge a poll by a superior in an institution by the standards of professional, sociological polls. It is enough, in my view, that the questions as a whole address the issues under consideration, without a clear bias. This is the case here, and a good opportunity to back the Founder, as I hope the friars will do. If there were not such unity with the founder, then the situatio would be bad indeed.

I wish to contend, with sympathy to Adfero, the comparison with the questions about a husband that beats his wife is not adequate in this case. That comparison assumes that the purpose of the questions is to evaluate the husband as such, and then you ask just about beatings, which would be certainly unfair. But the situation is different: it is about a good husband, accused only of beating the wife (say, by one or two of the children), and then a policeman comes and asks the wife and the other ten children. The policeman should ask, of course, about whether it was true that the husband was beating the wife, since that was the only accusation. The policeman would not be trying to make an overall assessment of the husband as such. And, if all the children and the wife say that there were no beatings (but that the accusers were wrong), then all the issue should be over.

The real problem would emerge if the community of the FI were internally divided, with a substantial part against the founder. That would be very bad. But if only some rebels have made false accusations, then an extraordinary general chapter can back again the founder and repress the rebellion.

Waverley said...

Adfero, spot on. A transparently agenda-driven poll, puerile in its execution. The second part approaches a public trial of the Superior General by questionnaire. Cack-handed and reeking of the passive aggressivism of the Church of Vatican II. May God preserve this order, a target too sweet and fruitful for the revolutionaries to pass by.

Adfero said...

Christobal, yes, police would take that tact. But a judge working with a defense attorney would probe for the whole truth and expose everything. But this, going by the line of questioning which is what we have, isn't looking for the whole picture. It's loading the questions to get a particular outcome. If all they needed was a handful of liberals to get this far, who is to say even one percent of dissension in this poll won't create even more damage?

Stephen Band said...

"10) Do you think that the introduction of the Extraordinary Form in the Institute suits your spirituality?"

Ah, but if a Franciscan superior who is seeking God, institutes the use of the Extraordinary Form and has good will—well, who am I to judge him?

Deacon Augustine said...

As the questionnaire seems to imply a dim view of "blind obedience" to the superior, that must offer some comfort to any friars who feel unwilling to be blindly obedient to the demands of the Commissioner.

They should take the Pope's advice and go back and create a mess in their communities - stir things up a bit - prove to the powers that be that they are not just Pelagian bead-counters who give too much weight to the directives emanating from the Holy See. What is good for the Latin American religious must be good for the Franciscans of the Immaculate too.

ka said...

THe inquisitor seems to have an axe to grind against the EF and one suspects he has only written the questions after already writing up his report and final conclusions. Are we soon to see the pear and the wheel again?

Carlos said...

The best one is that on the Vatican II:

"Do you think that the introdution of the Traditional Mass in the Institute is requested by the Vatican II"? The friars should answer this question with another question to the visitator: is the introduction of the new mass in the Institute requested by the Vatican II? We know that the new mass is not requested by the Vatican II. Moreover we also know that the popes are not bound to follow suggestions and guesses of the Council. So what's the point here?

Gratias said...

1. What is your opinion of Pope Francis' style of government?

Father Stefano Manelli is being set up for a fall with questions such as these. God bless him and the FFI.

This inquisition by the Vatican Commissar is sending the intended chill on the Traditional Latin Mass. We may end up like the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires. We need "lío".

Matthew said...

I hope the priests desirous of being truly Traditional Roman Catholics see that such is impossible with the FFI and leave for a Traditional group, not as an act of disobedience or of abandoning their vows, but in fidelity to Our Lord and the Holy Catholic Faith.

jeff said...

Waverley of 25 August, 2013 22:54:

I couldn't agree more!

S. Armaticus said...

Here's the gem:

"If you had to choose between the two forms (Ordinary and extraordinary) for all the members of the Institute, which one would you choose and why?"

The problem with this question is that the choice is false, in that you can't choose the EF exclusively.

Anyone choosing "EF" is marked for life (this life, that is)within the FFI.

BTW, wonder if the re-programing camp is already set up.

Barbara said...

Fishy, shady, underhand, manipulative, conniving, tendentious, cunning, scheming and a vicious hammering of Padre Manelli. (How I love his little devotional book – Jesus, Our Eucharistic Lord. Now if he is still that saintly person who wrote that treatise on the Most Holy Sacrament – those dissidents are surely agents of the ENEMY who goes about seeking to devour and destroy all the things of God) May Our Lord bless and sustain Padre Manelli during this hour of great trial.

The questioners are biased and the questions are “designed” and are interested in one thing only - the Old Rite – and in obliterating it! They have for the time being achieved their goal in this fine religious order. Only the obtuse would think otherwise reading these questions. Traditional Catholics know by now about the war going on too keep the Old Rite away from the people. Only the obtuse will disagree that the hierarchy at this present time, is mainly modernist and quite intent on either ignoring the Summorum Pontificum thing hoping it will die a death or open rapid repression of the Old Rite itself when opportunity presents itself like The FFI at the moment.

Dirty modernists who go around doing dark deeds with a smile and an Ave Maria on their lips!

.And all because of a few Friars who did not want the Old Rite. Come on. How swiftly the powers moved in on this good religious order – while the modernist orders like the nuns on the bus type are still left free to spread their filthy heresies ad infinitum.

No blind obedience here is not the way to go....mainly in reference to the lay person's attitude...who obviously under this tyranny has no say about not having the Old Rite anymore...so ironic though as this Post-Conciliar Church is so BIG on dialogue and lay participation in everything else..

Give me a break....

Marko Ivančičević said...

-Do you consider that the introduction of the Extraordinary Form in the Institute: is requested by the Second Vatican Council
-Do you think the introduction of the Extraordinary Form is desired
by the Pope? - which one?

no...not biased or manipulative at all...

Physiocrat said...

@Giovanni A. Cattaneo

Having been involved professionally in the use of public opinion surveys, I would say that this questionnaire is thoroughly unprofessional. Its findings, whatever they are, will not be accepted and will give rise to further controversy and division.

The authorities should employ a professional opinions research company like Gallup or IPSOS-MORI to conduct the survey. Opinion surveys are not something to be left to amateurs.

traditium said...

I find this whole thing odd. They are using a form of the Mass that they are legitimately allowed to use? Some members didn't like that it was used quite that much? That justifies all of this?

We are talking about the form of the Mass that the Church largely used for over a millennium here right? IF folks are standing in judgment of that, there it seems to me there are difficulties here.

-T

Crouchback said...

Look.....

If they get hassle

Then they know exactly where to go

No questions asked.

alsaticus said...

To traditium

What is at stake ?

Very simple : cardinal Braz is a well-known trad hater just like former cardinal Bergoglio.
He is using his friendship with the pope to push forward his semi-liberal agenda : on one hand, he is cuddling the rebellious US nuns, on the other hand he wants to send a signal to religious orders NOT to implement Summorum Pontificum.

Pope Francis is just giving a little wink to trad haters among the episcopate and religious orders : I am with you, I dislike TLM, you should not indulge in the Extraordinary Form or the Roman Curia will cause you troubles.

However WHO has appointed cardinal Braz ? ... guess who ... pope Benedict XVI.
Who did finally step back in 2012 with the Society ? guess who ... pope Benedict XVI.
Who has appointed a lot of anti-trad semi-liberals and neo-cons after 2009 in the Curia ? yes you've guessed : the same pope.

John Sobieski said...

Simply disgusting.

Linda Zentner said...

Physiocrat and Traditium--precisely, and well said. I agree with you both 150%

Claude said...

I am not familiar with the governance of the Franciscans of the Immaculate. But whatever it is, this questionnaire discredits and disavows its governance. The bottom line is that the extraordinary form passes a judgment on the excesses of the ordinary form, a judgment that is intolerable … leading to the question: can both liturgies coexist? The answer lies in what is happening to the Franciscans. But ultimately, when all NO churches have been converted to condos and most apostate congregations will have died off with very few priests left … will the mystical body of Christ be on the cross? Claude

David said...

So, let's get this straight.

The Vatican has spent 40 years soft-footing around US religious who openly dissent from the deposit of faith and, in many cases, promote abortion.

But in light of a flourishing and orthodox order that wishes to use the ancient liturgy of the Roman Rite the Vatican has shown how decisively it can intervene.

Something stinks to high heaven here.

Obedience is one thing. Complicity in the destruction of the Catholic faith is something else.

Kathleen said...

There goes the small hope that the persecution and suffering of these faithful sons would be over anytime soon.

They will need lots of prayers. For a long while.

I pray that someone with the ability to impact this situation steps up to their defense.

Long-Skirts said...

BY
DESSERTS
ALONE

Franciscan Friars
In the Priory
Two meals waiting
In the Friary.

One is fast food
Sits in bag,
Other, home-cooked,
On, some gag.

If one gags,
Must be confessed,
Nutritional truths
Can make us stressed

And stressed spelled backwards
Is desserts…
Our mountains of flesh need -
For nutrition perverts.

Rick DeLano said...

@David:


"Obedience is one thing. Complicity in the destruction of the Catholic faith is something else."

>> Bingo.

@stefania:


"I'm thinking this goes far beyond the restriction of the EF here."

>> So why does the questionnaire deal exclusively with the EF?


"I would certainly gather all your information accordingly instead of having a witch hunt against the Holy See."

>> I would certainly examine my motivations in calling this a witch hunt against the Holy See.

majella said...

This document is a stinker! It reeks of malice. It does not even have to pretend to be competently executed in order to achieve it's nasty purpose.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

There is almost a viciousness when the authorities are dealing with Orthodoxy. But at least, they have the sense to leave FSSP and Institute alone. More and more Bishops are putting on a brave face and all and letting FSSP into their territory.

The true colors of a Bishop are displayed by how they govern.

We shall see how this plays out.

Long-Skirts said...

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

"But at least, they have the sense to leave FSSP and Institute alone."

...and how long do you think that will last?

S. Armaticus said...

Long-Skirts said...

"...and how long do you think that will last?" (regarding how long FSSP will be allowed to exist).

And the answer is: For as long as the SSPX is outside the fold.

Consider the FFI a situation that went pear shaped. The old liberals got a bit too clever, and ended up being too clever by half. "Never again" -is what this poll is all about.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

@long skirts Said..

.and how long do you think that will last?





There is in my mind at least a sense of, let the wacko's leave our regular parishes in cling to their past attitude among the V II crowd. Unfortunately for them there is coming a time when they will get more and more depended on the tradie breeders and their clergy for the sacraments. In the US, that time is coming fast, and Europe probably faster. At that point, there will be flash points. For now, there is a truce in the land with the politically savvy bishop looking for traddie photo opps and the going back to their comfy post concilliar world.

LeonG said...

One question would be enough;

Q. Would you like to keep The Latin Mass in your community?

The questionnaire is a typical verbose modernist document designed to interpret everything in whatever direction they wish. Liberals hate simplicity and directness. They are paranoid about Sacred Liturgical Tradition because it will eventually destroy the NO.

Mary Elaine Murray said...

The Vatican is persecuting orthodoxy while letting heretics like the dissident nuns, bishops denying dogma (and so many others)run rampant. This is the opposite of what God instituted Church authority to so. It looks as if the fox is in charge of the henhouse (or the wolf in charge of the sheepfold).

Liam Ronan said...

@stefania tomkovia,
You stated: "I'm thinking this goes far beyond the restriction of the EF here."
While that may or may not be true, we can infer something altogether different from the specific and public 'punishment' meted out. That the deprivation was of the EF does not seem to bear out your 'something far beyond' hypothesis.
The deprivation of the EF is a 'message' and in itself is graver than anything 'far beyond'that immediate action.
On a lighter note, I offer here a link to an article from Sandro Magister, published today on chiesa.espressonline.it, entitled "Ricca and Chaouqui, Two Enemies in the House", which shows how 'problematic' entities in the Church tend to get promoted these days.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350582?eng=y

LeonG said...

It is time to restate what I said before when The SP first appeared - study well the setails. Pope Benedict XVI had no interest in restoring the TLM other than to bring traditionalists onside with the NO - link of both in the SP and to try to entice The SSPX back into the fold with Rome. He also hoped to use a useful element of tradition to hybridise a more acceptable form of the NO.

Sorry everyone but you are barking up the wrong tree. Neither Popes Francis nor Benedict will help you out. This is the era of liberal modernism and it wants to ultimately "raze bastions": they hace declared this themselves. The Holy Mass is the final target for achieving this.

Now perhaps you may see this more clearly.

Johannes de Silentio said...

I'd sure like to know the answer to #9. Perhaps the Holy Father can offer an answer.

Robbie said...

It seems clear to me the FFI are just a vessel for an attack on the TLM. The VCII Cardinals think they have the wind at their backs with the election of Pope Francis and they're moving quickly to consolidate their gains. It's hard not to see this in any other light.

Cardinal Braz de Aviz is the one behind this, but I'm sure he feels he's acting on behalf of the "spirit of VCII". Let's not forget Bergoglio was the choice of the modernists in 2005. Mahoney and the gang thought their moment had come after the "conservative" reign of JPII, but were outmaneuvered.

More than likely, Cardinals like Braz de Aviz feel they've got to make up for the eight years their man was denied the papacy by Benedict.

Crouchback said...

Who said.......( *answer at bottom of this post )

" it was clear from that moment that the whole drama between Rome and ***** was being played around the problem of the Mass, as it still is today ".....???

Some of you will have guessed which famous Archbishop said that. If that famous Archbishop was still alive, I think he would be asking the Latin Mass Society......"Come on lads, how long are you going to sit on the fence.....what more do they have to do to show their utter contempt for the Mass"...???

That famous Archbishop....who I will name in a minute is not around .....so I'll ask.....how long lads..??....is't it time you gave up the historical re enactment show ....and got real......I"ll be phoning the Latin Mass Society office in London first thing in the morning....asking that they put out a call to arms....no more Novus Ordo....if you want to be a Luke warm Catholic then join your diocesan music ministry and do some liturgical dancing......get out of the Latin Mass Society...

2, no more indult Masses.....only full time Traditional Mass priests to be supported.

Simple really

* answer, Archbishop Lefebvre....no prizes for guessing that.

Crouchback said...

PS.....what mass will Cardinal O'Brien be saying....??

Does the Vatican have a view on that....??

Only asking.

Magdalene said...

We can only guess at motives or malice. My own opinion has not changed in that this began with disobedience to the superiors that the friars had vowed to obey except in the case of sin. There was no sin on the part of the holy founders. This has been fomenting for several years with some friars public in their dissention. Yes, the family atmosphere was also taken away for specious reasons.

I do see this as from the enemy of souls as all such divisions are. But Fr. Stefano knows that great graces come with such persecutions.

The bad attitude expressed by some gives 'confirmation ' to the 'rad trad' moniker some friars were speaking against. God has permitted this and the suffering will bear merit. The dissenters...what will happen to them? The order is obedient but the desire for faithful tradition will continue.

Ad Quem Ibimus? said...

It appears to me as if qns. 8 & 9 were loaded!!!

K-Town USA said...

It is apparent to those involved that the NO and TLM cannot coexist.

I would've loved to see that on the questionnaire! Here is one question in which all would agree.

Angelo said...

My opinion is that this poll is clearly routine modernist manipulation and aggression. The Founder and Superior General has every right to make decisions that concern his Religious Order. In dealing with modernist heretics the FFI has only one choice, and that is to appeal this matter to the Apostolic Signatura. There is no telling how long Cardinal Burke will remain in that office and replaced with a modernist. They must do it immediately. If its clear to us that this is another modernist act of evil, how much more is it not clear to Cardinal Burke.

Acreator said...

"How about the 7:00 am EF Mass at the church of the Annunziata in Lungotevere Vaticano 1? It was offered by these poor Franciscans of the Immaculate and was attended by workers at the nearby Vatican."

Yes - and some started five in the morning to go there from te suburbs, and for us pilgrims it was a grace.

Waverley said...

As an aside, is anyone aware how the hundreds of Austrian heretic clergy (those of 'Call to Disobedience' fame) are faring these days? If the current plight of the FFI demonstrates how faithful, orthodox, poor and obedient Franciscans are to be cut down by the Rome of our time, surely then the scandalous, diabolical false shepherd Austrians (and their ilk) must be in for a walloping of 13th century proportions ... right?

I'm sure the hard men of the New and Reformed Curia are just warming up. I mean, a hierarchy can't attack orthodoxy while protecting heresy and still regard itself as the shepherd of Christ's Church ... right?

I'd ask Rorate to share with us the Austrian "questionnaire" (or the LCWR questionnaire, or the 'We Are Church' questionnaire, or the Neo Cat questionnaire, or the Lavender-Paedo-Mafia questionnaire, or the sodo-abort 'Catholic'-politician-and-accommodating-bishop-waiting-with-Holy-Communion questionnaire, etc.), if and when these documents ever come to light.

Linda Zentner said...

Angelo,
Yes, I think the term aggression does apply here.

apis said...

Liam, Not much lightness in the article you provided, I'm afraid, and it calls to mind another article (just over a year old) at Sandro Magister's website.
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350278?eng=y

Mar

Gratias said...

Thank you Acreator for confirming that the daily FFI Holy Mass near the Vatican at the Annunziatina has been canceled. The V2 cardinals must be very happy with this victory.

Acreator said...

Oh no, I don´t know about that yet. But I can easily ask for some trustworthy info, because a friend of mine uses to go there every morning. Let us hope and pray.

Stephen sans silencio McGuire said...

So New Catholic, I guessing intellectual dishonesty?

New Catholic said...

About what, Fr. Bonaventure McGuire, FFI? You know I am not the only moderator here, right? Which is why we can have 24/7 moderation.

Please, other commentators, say hi to Fr. Bonaventure McGuire, FFI, one of the dissidents of the FFI who brought about the intervention. And very active as a Rorate reader.

All together now: "Hi, Father Bonaventure McGuire, FFI!!!"

Stephen sans silencio McGuire said...

New Catholic, it's actually FI not FFI.

New Catholic said...

Sorry about that - it only shows that I have never really met an FFI in person - ever.

Please, remember my mother MJ in your intentions at Mass.

Best regards,

NC

Magdalene said...

Has Fr. Bonaventure returned to the order after refusing his transfer to another friary?

7fbc6254-eb65-11e2-85d7-000bcdcb471e said...

Just like any survey. It depends on who's asking the questions and how the questions are phrased. One can contort any answer to make it say what one wants it to. Just saying.

Matt

Physiocrat said...

@Matt - social attitude and market research surveys have been around for a long time and there is a well developed science behind them. A professional firm such as Gallup or Mori would never have cooked up a mess like the questionnaire above. No meaningful conclusion can be drawn from the questions and it will simply ensure that the argument rumbles on.

Those responsible should have got a commercial organisation to do the work form them. This is amateur brain surgery.

New Catholic said...

Father, you chose to identify yourself, please repost that without mentioning her by name.

Stephen sans silencio McGuire said...

New Catholic, for the sake of truth perhaps you might like to reveal to your readers how you new my religious name and idenity?

New Catholic said...

Certainly, I googled your baptismal name, used by yourself here, and found an old article mentioning both it and your religious name, in a FFI community led at the time by a friar called Fr. Angelo Geiger.

Not that hard, really.

Best regards,

NC

Rick DeLano said...

Touche, New Catholic ;-)

Adfero said...

I did the same, it took two seconds. You don't need a Deep Throat source, just Google!

Adfero said...

Father, with all due respect, if every one of your comments weren't laced with vitriol and insults, more would get through. If they weren't laden with disrespect towards VOLUNTEER bloggers, many of who have large families and are doing this out of a love of God and His Church with the little spare time we have, and don't have time to prove everything to you, more would get through.

Adfero said...

Father, again, calling us liars won't get your comment through. And, frankly, you're wrong.

As NC stated, a simple google search shows it. I searched your name and "franciscan friar" and got multiple hits, including this story, about you and Fr. Angelo:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1915&dat=20000317&id=VCMiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fXYFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4012,3260997

Now, I'm done. I won't fight with you. But please stop the insults, and the false accusations. We don't post things lightly, and we do our homework.

Nicholas Ugap said...

I want to response to every Catholics about Traditional Latin Mass and all of "The Franciscans of the Immaculate Commission
PARTICULAR QUESTIONS":

[This ordinance applies henceforth, now, and forever, throughout all the provinces of the Christian world, to all patriarchs, cathedral churches, collegiate and parish churches, be they secular or religious, both of men and of women - even of military orders - and of churches or chapels without a specific congregation in which conventual Masses are sung aloud in choir or read privately in accord with the rites and customs of the Roman Church. This Missal is to be used by all churches, even by those which in their authorization are made exempt, whether by Apostolic indult, custom, or privilege, or even if by oath or official confirmation of the Holy See, or have their rights and faculties guaranteed to them by any other manner whatsoever.

...
Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this notice of Our permission, statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul. ]
-Papal Bull Quo Primum Pope St. Pius V - July 14, 1570

Acreator said...

About the daily FI Holy Mass near the Vatican at the Annunziata has been canceled in August. On Monday we will know about September.

From WikkiMissa:
Chiesa di Santa Maria Annunziata in Borgo Lungotevere Vaticano, 1 - 00193 - ROMA
domenica: S. Messa cantata ore 10.30 lunedì - sabato: S. Messa ore 7.00
Per informazioni: 06-68801049
Summorum Pontificum (Francescani dell'Immacolata)

Gratias said...

Thank you Acreator for the information about daily EF Mass near the Vatican. I was very curious about it.

Angelo said...

Did Vatican Council ll take into consideration the Papal Bulla Quo Primum of St. Pius V and the consequences of the wrath of Almighty God and the Apostles St. Peter and St. Paul for those who would toy with it? This Papal Bulla stands and is unchangeable. Enough with the argument that one Pope cannot bind another. Until of course a Pope issues a Bulla declaring this. But then, if we can then ignore Quo Primum, we could ignore any Papal Bulla past, present and future. But then that would wreak havoc in the Church. As if it didn't happen already!