Rorate Caeli

More news from Lourdes

In his press conference today, the President of the French Episcopal Conference, Cardinal Ricard, said, regarding the project of liberalization of the Traditional Mass, exactly the same things which he had already stated in his Saturday address, with almost exactly the same words.

"The project of motu proprio will be the object of various consultations. We may convey, from now on, our fears and desires."
Meanwhile, Sophie de Ravinel informs at Le Figaro (via Le Forum Catholique) that:

"Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard is about to go to Rome to rework, with other Cardinals, the first draft of the text regarding the liberalization of the Tridentine Latin Mass [sic]. The members of the Ecclesia Dei commission -- one of which is the Archbishop of Bordeaux -- will, at the request of Benedict XVI, work on the dossier, up to now entrusted only to Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos ... . No deadline has been set."

32 comments:

Jon said...

So this presumably is the concession that the Jacobin Club wrang out of the Vicar of Christ?

And Fellay is supposed to trust?

I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm going to retire to a corner and read a little Burke.

Come get me when the Convention returns the verdict.

Guadalupe Guard said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Guadalupe Guard said...

I fear it is not Catholic nor healthy for one's spirituality to have the essential manifestations of one's faith so toyed with, intentionally or not. Indeed, the toy is a yo-yo. These last few months have made me quite desirous of the peace that can be had in the SSPX.

However, I stay in the indult netherworld. Bishop Fellay calls it "suicide," but I see it as martyrdom.

May we all sing praises to the Lord even unto the scaffold. Laudetur Jesus Christus.

Cerimoniere said...

I agree, this is agonizing.

However, so far, the only concession the Pope has granted is an agreement to listen to their rants before doing anything. We can still hope that the Holy Father has not forgotten how to provide "answers in the negative" in the end. After all, he recently did so to the US bishops' request for an indult to continue one of their liturgical perversions.

If he can say "no" to the French bishops as resolutely, we will still see progress. We know this can't go on forever, and so does the Pope. Perhaps this will be the moment after all. Adveniat!

The Book Burner said...

I too am sticking it out in the indult camp.... but these words from Archbishop Levefvre haunt me:

"No Catholic has to apologize to anyone for refusing to accept it. Out of obedience, many people go along with the new thing even though it causes them pain. They stoically "offer it up" as if a sacrilege could be offered as an atonement for itself."

So basically it comes down to this: is the Novus Ordo, celebrated according to the rubrics, a sacrilege? My answer is of course "no" but then again I see things like communion on the hand, and altar girls... these things certainly seem to be sacrileges.

I don't have the answer. Archbishop Lefevre is smarter than me, but so is Pope Benedict XVI.

How frustrating this crisis is!

The Book Burner said...

Silly me. I spelled his name wrong. I know its really Lefebvre.

Cerimoniere said...

I'm about to post a translation of Cardinal Ricard's full remarks at the press conference on my own blog.

AmemusAthanasium said...

Please help obtain a majority by voting the following poll, read by the bishops of the Netherlands and Belgium too.

Instructions and the correct answer in favour of the Traditional Roman Rite Mass, can be found here:
http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/apologia/vpost?id=1489651&trail=28

Don't let Ricard and the Strasbourg crew dominate the universal Church. We are not Gallican Constitutionalists but Roman Catholics.

Podatus said...

How do we know that these consultations weren't planned all along? Certainly the Holy Father foresaw these protests. Wouldn't this be one of the reasons he put Cardinal Ricard on the Ecclesia Dei Committee: to check-mate the criticism of the French Bishops that they weren't consulted, that they didn't have a voice in this? Perhaps even to have one of their own bring them around to the inevitable? I may be wrong and the Holy Father certainly needs our prayers--as well as Cardinal Castrillon who almost certainly was freed up from his duties as Head of the Congregation for the Clergy for this important work--but it "ain't over yet," not by a long shot. Apparently the Holy Father has already said "no" to Cardinal Levada on the pro multis issue. Let us pray that he have the strength to say no to those who advise against a generous motu proprio.

Vivere said...

I am trying not to be discouraged by the recent information but it is very difficult. I honestly don't think things are looking good right now. I pray that the Pope will do what he knows is right but with the liberals rallying like they have been, I fear he will back down.

Maybe we need to rally as well and start a letter and email campaign in an attempt to grab the Pope's ear. It may not help but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

Long-Skirts said...

Vivere said...
"Maybe we need to rally as well and start a letter and email campaign in an attempt to grab the Pope's ear. It may not help but it certainly wouldn't hurt."

We DID that in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and now we're getting into the 5th decade! The destroyers of the WHOLE FAITH want you to write...stay in your ghettos. Where are your schools, seminaries, monasteries, retreat houses, convents - they are just waiting for you to die out while Rome burns!

THE
PETITIONERS

They cock their pens
And write their pappy,
Spill their ink
On trees once sappy.

They do not fight
With soul and might,
They'd rather sit
And letter write,

Oh, these, our lords,
Approved patricians,
Who give their lives
For bloody petitions.

thetimman said...

I attend an ICKSP parish, and while all is well in my corner of the world, and while I will stick it out, I am incredibly frustrated by all of this stuff. Why must good always suffer at the hands of these duplicitous charlatans?! Why doesn't the Holy Father just act, and do the right thing? I wish I knew. I know we must pray for him, but this latest nonsense does toy with us too much. Get on with it! Or get on with repudiating us, so at least we can dispense with the ambiguity.

Vivere said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Gaufridus said...

"is the Novus Ordo, celebrated according to the rubrics, a sacrilege?"

The Novus Ordo, in and of itself, is not a sacrilege. That is not the problem.

The problem (as in nearly all V2 documents) is in the manner of interpretation and in who is doing the interpreting.

The Novus Ordo is ambiguous about many traditional Catholic concepts and outright ignores several. The "For Many/For All" controversy is just one example. This point has been explained in countless other fora ad infinitum absurdam.

Does a priest, who celebrates the Novus Ordo, "do what the Church intends to do"? Does he believe in the Transubstantiation? Does he believe he is offering up a Sacrifice?

Or does he consider himself the presiding officer at a banquet, sharing some "Jesus Cookies" with his buddies?

You see, we, as traditional Catholic laymen, in order to be certain that we are receiving a sacrament and not participating in a sacrilege, have to determine the intentions of each individual priest who celebrates the Novus Ordo. No longer can we simply take it for granted that all Catholic priests have had a traditional Catholic education.

That places us in some very uncomfortable territory, at least in my opinion. I absolutely resent the fact that I have to "judge" a priest. But, what else can one do? Participating in a sacrilege is a mortal sin; we as Catholics are supposed to avoid the occasions of sin.

This is why the "safe bet" is to assist at the Masses celebrated by the SSPX. These guys talk the talk and walk the walk. Of course, there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding the canonical status of the Society and its priests, which turns a lot of people off.


My answer is of course "no" but then again I see things like communion on the hand, and altar girls... these things certainly seem to be sacrileges.

For a layman -- or anyone -- to hand the host with unconsecrated hands is a sacrilege. Otherwise, there is no purpose to consecrating the hands of the priest. He might as well wear gloves.

Altar girls, female extraordinary Eucharistic minister[ette]s, female members of a choir, etc. are manifestly and objectively wrong; at best they are not Traditional; at worst they are indeed sacrilegious.


However, I stay in the indult netherworld. Bishop Fellay calls it "suicide," but I see it as martyrdom.

I think I am one of those rare (pro-SSPX) animals who thinks that the Indult can be okay, but that you have to take each Indult one at a time.

One problem with the Indult is that by attending it, you could be giving giving the impression that you accept the assertion that an Indult to celebrate the traditional Catholic Mass is necessary in the first place. It's analogous to applying for a permit to carry a firearm in the United States. Because of the 2nd Amendment, no permission is necessary. But, there are a lot of bad laws out there that force you to do so.

As a layman, my solution is to adopt the position that I will go where I can find Catholic Tradition. Again, outside the Society chapels, that puts me in the uncomfortable position of having to evaluate Indult parishes. That said, I dont know what else to do.

Another problem with the Indult is that you still dont know the mental and spiritual disposition of the priest celebrating it. Also, I've heard (and I cannot remember when or where) that priests who are "permitted" to say the Indult must sign a statement to the effect that they will not question Vatican II. Which kind of kicks the whole point to Tradition in the crotch.

Lastly, I've also heard that there is no guarantee that an Indult Mass will actually be a traditional Catholic Mass. It might be a Novus Ordo Mass said in Latin, for instance. Again, that kind of defeats the purpose.


This Modern Era is one, big, nasty mess. Maybe it is that way intentionally. Who knows? All I know is that it is not an easy time to be a Catholic. But then, nothing worthwhile ever seems to be easy.


Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

Vivere said...

long skirts,

I'm not saying write letters and nothing else. We need to pray, write letters, send emails and do anything else we can think to get the Pope's ear and let him know the number of people who actually support this. We need to stop retreating quietly into our little holes everytime the liberals rise up.

What is your suggestion? What are you doing to help matters and to achieve results?

Tony La Rosa said...

Unlike some others, I am sticking with the SSPX. I have been attending their Masses exclusively for the last year and a half. I am not looking back. It is a joy to get the True Mass and Catholic Faith without any taint of the Novus Ordo.

Book Burner,

Where did you get that quote from Archbishop Lefebvre?

Cerimoniere said...

There is much in what Podatus says.

The Pope must have known what the reaction would be. As a political reality (not, of course, as a matter of doctrine or canon law), he has to act in a collegial manner. This does not mean that he has to do what most of the other bishops want, but it does mean that he has to hear their views, and they have to be aware that he has heard them, before he acts.

It seems to me that this is why the Pope is acting slowly. He first of all consulted the Cardinals, solicited their opinions, then gave notice of what he was intending to do, and is now hearing the rest of the bishops. Obviously, he got no encouragement from the Cardinals, and he still pressed ahead after that. We have no reason to think he will be diverted by the latest opposition; what he will do is answer the objections before, or in the process of, acting.

Janice said...

Why doesn't everyone just pray for the Pope. He has always acted with honor. I think it is presumptuous, when all we've heard are reports, of various levels of certainty, to question his resolve.

Hammerbrecher said...

He is German, he is being thorough. He is allowing the Bishops to respond so no one can claim he didn't listen wasn't pastoral, is a dictator... I recall him once saying: "Truth is not determined by a majority vote." He has already made up his mind, it is coming, just when is the question.

Podatus said...

Thank you Cerimoniere, Janice, and Hammerbrecher. There still is real concrete reason for hope. The Holy Father has taken it this far despite massive indifference from the bishops at last year's Synod on the Eucharist--and very little interest on the part of the Cardinals at the consistory's last spring. Now he is just going to give up?

I think we are in the home stretch and a lot of it will have to do with how well Cardinal Castrillon can chair a committee meeting. I am serious. Although I think some of us traditionalists were hoping for a "Rambo" who would bulldoze the recalcitrant bishops and cardinals, this is simply not the way things work in the corridors of power--whether in the Church or the world. If Cardinal Castrillon can take the concerns of a Cardinal Ricard (and the constituency he represents) seriously, keep a smile on his face--and even throw him a few minor bones--while keeping on track with the papal agenda AND do it all smoothly: then we have nothing to worry about.

I really wish I was a fly on that wall!

Sixtus V said...

Thank you Janice, Cerimoniere, Hammerbrecher, and Podatus for your well reasoned comments.

It amazes me that some traditionalist think the Pope can force liberals and modernists in the Church to accept his commands, when those who tout tradition also act with disobedience. Obedience is a virtue that many seem to have forgotten, no matter where they fall in the spectrum. Non serviam, no matter how justified is the motto of the devil.

ThePublican said...

Of course, many of the above comments assume that Castrillon Hoyos and the Pope are in good working terms. What I understand from friends in Rome with good reason to know, is that Castrillon Hoyos submitted his resignation upon B-XVI being elected because they were not on speaking terms, as it were. This means that the relationship between both men is less than friendly. How that affects what is being said here or what was stated in prior posts about the issue at hand, I am not sure; I just wanted to throw this into the equation as something that should be considered. In any event, in Rome they say that when a document is leaked it is either to kill it or to allow its opponents to render it harmless... Yet, hope springs eternal and my prayers are with the Pope. Maybe THIS time it will be different. Adveniat regnum tuun et fiat voluntas tua...

MacK said...

This affair has certainly shown us who the enemies of The Roman Catholic Church are.

Indeed, Ricard must be very fearful......

MacK said...

..........imagine all those poor rotten French bishops actually having to behave like real Roman Catholics once more in front of all those French people whom they have aided and abetted in becoming paganised.

Indeed, very fearful...in fact, terrified.

alsaticus said...

to sixtus V
A model of episcopal "obedience" from a very modern cardinal-archbishop who is proving why freedom for TLM is really an URGENT necessity...
If the pope and cardinal C. Hoyos were in need of some argument, cardinal Rosales is providing all : disinformation on the 1984 indult, ignorance of the 1988 motu proprio and subsequent official declarations, in short, frontal opposition to the Holy Father. In the name of the "Council" ...

"Greetings of peace in the Lord!

"I received your letter dated 22 February 2005 asking
permission for the establishment (of) your community
here in Manila. I am very sorry to inform you that for
the moment we cannot grant you the permission you are
requesting for the celebration of the Tridentine Mass
and the representation of your group in the
Archdiocese of Manila.

"The Church entrusts to the local Ordinary the care
and development of the liturgical life of the
particular churches. It is our desire that all our
faithful may draw strength and inspiration from the
celebrations of the liturgy entrusted to us by the
Lord, most especially in the Eucharist, and given to
the Church for custody as set forth in the reforms of
the liturgy of Vatican II.

"The document Quattuor Abhinc Annos is intended to
help those who find difficulty in celebrating the Mass
of Paul VI, ultimately, to accept and celebrate it. It
is not a blanket permission to request for the
celebration of the Tridentine Mass.

"We are one with you in your desire to offer to the
Triune God the genuine sacrifice of praise. At the
moment, we see that it is pastorally beneficial to the
whole Archdiocese of Manila to promote the reforms of
the liturgy as set by Vatican II.

"Be assured of my prayers for you and all your
endeavors.

"Sincerely yours in Jesus,

+Gaudencio B. Rosales
Archbishop of Manila"

sacerdos15 said...

Whatever the relationship between the Pope and Cardinal Castillon Hoyos is, the relationship between the Pope and Cardinal Medina Estevez is said to be very great.They are said to be close. Does anyone know who is on the Ecclesia Dei commission besides hoyos,estevez,Ricard and ? Did Levada take Ratzingers place? Pope John Paul enlarged the commission and added the Frenchman.I believe this was done after the French scuttled JP's universal indult.

Cerimoniere said...

Yes, Cardinal Levada was appointed at the same time as Cardinal Ricard. The other appointment was Cardinal Antonio Canizares Llovera, the Archbishop of Toledo.

Is Cardinal Medina Estevez a member also? I had forgotten that, if so.

poeta said...

Obedience is a virtue, but under the heading of the cardinal virtue of justice. For this reason, absolute obedience is not owed to an unjust command even from a lawful superior (or to a command that is contrary to faith, hope, or charity).

Hebdomadary said...

Greetings, I won't stay long but I posted this on Ceremonieri's blog first, and offer it here for your delectation.

My attention is immediately drawn by two things. Firstly that he is forced to address the issue at all, and by saying that the issue is to "find a way" indicates that a way will be found (or has been found already). The second item is his insistance that "the Church is NOT changing direction...there's no going back." Methinks the man doth protest way too vociferously.

He knows quite well that the Church IS changing course, that Peter's barque has a fully functional rudder, and that it's turning despite him. Obviously there is, in fact, quite alot of going back (evidence the SSPX, FSSP, Institute of Christ the King, various monasteries, Instituet of the Good Shepherd), even going forward while going backwards. You see, Peter's barque is propeller driven these days, and is geared for reverse.

He may hate it, and he may seek to deny for the comfortable ignorance of his personal audience, but he's not in control, and the reversal will continue with or without him. I suspect he knows it. Here endeth.

Cerimoniere said...

I think there is a lot to this.

There has never been a time, even in 1988, when the bishops have had to deal with the traditional liturgy in the public arena in this way, and the reason is clear: the person putting it on the agenda is the Pope. Anyone else can be marginalized when they raise the issue, but not he.

Therefore, the bishops, especially in France, are conducting a desperate damage limitation exercise. We shall see what happens, but we should not see their rhetoric as indicative of anything other than their own position.

Felipe A. said...

I think that the real fears of the french bishops are neither the Vatican II issues nor the Liturgy itself, but the possibility of an Apostolic Administration wich can result in two bishops per dioceses.

As far as i know, this is the way the things are in Campos, Brazil where two bishops share a juridictional authority over the same faithfuls.

The French bishops are scared to lose their faithfuls (or what remains of them)and their jobs.We should pray for them.

MacK said...

Certainly, we should pray that the bishops of France convert to The Roman Catholic Church whose pre-conciliar bequest they have squandered for a mess of potage.
Our Blesses Lord warned us about the blind who lead the blind. Whoever could trust such errant hypocrits.