Rorate Caeli

Ecclesia Dei Secretary:
Instruction on the Motu Proprio to be released "shortly"

Monsignor Camille Perl, Secretary of the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei", in a brief interview to religious news website Petrus, dismissed changes in the Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews ("It is not an urgent problem," according to Perl, for whom the whole debate is a "contrived problem", regarding which "for the moment, nothing has been done and, probably, nothing ever will").

The instruction on the application of the Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum was also mentioned:

Monsignor Perl also explains that the upcoming "Instruction", announced by Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, for the clarification of some aspects of the Motu Proprio [Summorum Pontificum], will not mention the matter of the prayer for the Jews. The "Instruction" will be released "shortly" [prossimamente], even though the exact date has not yet been chosen.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

"changes in the Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews ("It is not an urgent problem)"

It is not URGENT, but it is a problem. I bet they will change it when the times are ripe.

Credo said...

a probelm? Oh, you mean for the lack of a real prayer in the NO Missal for conversion instead of a "hey, Santa knows we're all God's children and that makes everything right". Well I do think that's urgent.

Alexander said...

It is not URGENT, but it is a problem. I bet they will change it when the times are ripe.

A problem? What Church do you belong to? The conversion of all into the Body of Christ which is one and the same as the Holy Catholic Church is the explicit mandate of Christ Himself.

Anonymous said...

Even if it was a problem, no good can come from addressing it. Either you defend the prayer and needlessly give rise to the impression of encouraging antisemitism or you replace the prayer and needlessly give rise to the impression of messing with tradition. It's a catch 22 and, either way, it becomes a bigger problem if you deal with it than if you leave it alone.

Paddy said...

Change the prayer, and you will have to change the New Testament as well - namely 2 Corinthians 3:15, on which the prayer is directly based. Have a read!

Anonymous said...

"give rise to the impression of encouraging antisemitism"

Who believes that this prayer encourages antisemitism? Do they matter?

Anonymous said...

If they change that prayer they will lose a significant portion of the trads in union with Rome,not to mention put an end to any chance that their will ever be a reunion with the SSPX. It will then say that the Papacy stands not for TRUTH but for political correctness and so every group would then come forward demanding the changes they want!!!

Anonymous said...

"It will then say that the Papacy stands not for TRUTH but for political correctness"

Doesn't the papacy stand already for political correctness?

Joe B said...

As if they're going to embrace us anyway.

Bell Ringer said...

Who believes that this prayer encourages antisemitism? Do they matter?

In light of a little-known events such as World War II, there is quite a bit of concern throughout the civilized world that history never repeats itself. For this reason anything that might be conceived to be in the least bit anti-semetic is met with vorciferous opposition. It is a very sensitive issue. And yes, semitic people do matter.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the Jews will think of removing derogatory references to Jesus from the Talmud in response to this Vatican acknowledgement that the reference to Jews in the liturgy is a problem, though not an urgent one. This is quite a step. Of course, I do not think that what happens in Catholic worship is any body's business but Catholics. But since we've gotten into the business of minding other people's business how about a little reciprocity.

Berolinensis said...

"It is not URGENT, but it is a problem. I bet they will change it when the times are ripe."

Msgr. Perl goes on to say in the "Petrus" article:
"for the moment, nothing has been done, and probably, nothing will be done." He calls the issue "a contrived problem"

Bell Ringer said...

Perhaps the Jews will think of removing derogatory references to Jesus from the Talmud

I doubt it since such comments are directed at someone who is 2,000 years dead and since those comments are unlikely to cause any adverse consequences to anyone living.

On the other hand anti-semitic sentiments are directed against a whole race of living people and there is a history of such sentiments having caused some of the worst human atrocities against said people. Moreover, couched in a religious setting, these sentiments especially dangerous, since religion is given to varying interpretations and varying degrees of fanaticism.

Syriacus said...

Many thanks to Berolinensis for having quoted the translation of those words of Mons. Perl!


Yes, "and probably, nothing will be done"... (Although I just wonder if that 'nothing' refers to the time before this Easter, or to, say, the next years or more...)

alsaticus said...

to "bell ringer".
you are in the usual deep confusion about "anti-semitism". This concept is born in the end of XIXth and is intrisically linked to the "Modern" society.

As far as every body can easily know, Adolf Hitler was not praying for the conversion of religious Jews to the Christian faith. If this was true, please provide quotations from "Mein Kampf" or speeches from any Nazi leader asking the Jews to become Christian.

We have here an old mental and intellectual confusion that crept into the media with the 10 points of Seelisberg immediately after WWII. It is a nonsense.
May I recall everyone that the Holy Office made a statement solemnly condemning the notion of "antisemitism" as early as 1928.

Besides when we confront the Pauline version and the Pian prayer, there isn't much difference in my humble opinion : the word "conversion" is omitted in the Pauline prayer which says the same in a typically blurred style.
I feel it is a classical false problem stirred artificially for bad reasons by the litnik lobby on one side, the anti-Catholic various lobbies on the other side.
We should look at this with calm and sanity.

Syriacus said...

In July...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/883535.html

Anonymous said...

bell ringer:

"2,000 years dead"??!!? Think about what you just said.

New Catholic said...

Thank you very much for your comments, Berolinensis and Alsaticus.

Anonymous said...

Saying "it is not an urgent problem" Msgr. Perl put those people (including Cardinal Bertone who brought it up) who are obsessing about offending Jews with the paryer for their conversion properly in their place. At the end of the line in the list of Vatican "priorities".
Leave the prayer where it is. It's part of the Catholic liturgy, not the Jewish liturgy. Do we go into their synagogues and tell them to remove all the chants, prayers and "curses" they have in their liturgical traditional books that are against the "Goyim"....non-Jews. NO.
SOME people in the Vatican, and SOME groups of Catholics are making a big deal out of nothing.
The Vatican's advice to these people, and to the Jews should be....MYOB....

Anonymous said...

Pope John Paul II was a very decent man, and a very holy man. He perhaps may be a saint in the eyes of many. He did a good job in much of his reign as Pope. But his one flaw was that he was too "politically correct". In recieving in audience, meeting with, and even praying with Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and a whole host of various Protestant groups...He accidentally gave the impression that we're all the same.
He also bent over backwards to please these people, which was a kind but misguided thing to do.
Which is why people like these Jews now take advantage of His goodness, and pressure the Vatican to change this or that prayer which they consider offensive, or to supress the canonization process of Pius XII because He is offensive to them etc.
The Jews want the Vatican to accomodate them 100% because it's their mistaken belief that that is what John Paul II would have done. The 130 Muslim scholars who petitioned for meetings with the Vatican to discuss views totally expected nothing but a positive answer because they assume that's what John Paul II would have done.
Well, John Paul II has been dead for nearly 3 years, and it's time to move on. The Vatican can't continue being ruled by the spirit of John Paul II. It's ridiculous.
Benedict XVI and the Vatican of today is alot different. And these Jews should understand that the world of the Vatican doesn't revolve around them, and their concerns, criticisms, or objections.

Anonymous said...

I think it's interesting how these Jewish representatives are in such a stir about a prayer used in what they perceive to be a religion of falsehoods. But they should be, because the prayers of the Church actually WORK. For centuries Jews have converted to Christianity and no doubt the Good Friday prayers have helped. The Enemy wishes to do all he can to stop the Church from praying her prayers.

caesar said...

"In recieving in audience, meeting with, and even praying with Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, and a whole host of various Protestant groups...He accidentally gave the impression that we're all the same."

I am not very convinced about this postulate. The SSPX anamatized for meeting with non-christian believers and this is not right. It is uncharitable to live as like this people do not exist, and I believe that "dialogue" (in the good sense) can bring a lot of good to the world. The meetings that JPII held perhaps should have been arranged without offending the catholic faith. They were not handled in an appropiate way.

What I rebuke is the willing of the Holy See to take on unchristian "dialogue" accomodating and manipulating the catholic faith to seek more recognizition by the powerfuls of the world. The erasing of the prayers for conversions from the NO is an exemple of this, and the conciliar popes have been wrong in this matter.

STOP TINKERING WITH THE CATHOLIC FAITH!

John L said...

For those who commented that the prayer for the conversion of the Jews should be removed; do you think that the Jews should, or should not, convert to Chriwtianity? If they should, where is the wrong in praying that they should? And if they should not; what is left of Christianity? Most of the New Testament insistently makes the claim that the Jews should follow Christ - that is indeed the implication of the term 'Christ', which means 'Messiah'. The apostles for some time did not even think of trying to convert Gentiles. The idea that trying to convert Jews is anti-semitic can only be true if Christianity is false. But if it is false, there is no point in having any sort of Christian liturgy at all, and this debate is thus pointless.

Bell Ringer said...

To "Alsaticus":

Regardless of the origin of Hitler's anti-Semitic views, it still holds true that there is a sickening long and bloody history of persecution of the Jewish peoples, much of it related to the fact that they have been labelled "Christ killers" down through the ages. Naturally, then, there is extreme caution among civilised peoples not to allow history to repeat itself – not to allow anti-Semitic views to proliferate once again. For this reason anything that may be construed as anti-Semitic is denounced outright, and rightly so. No risks should be taken. And religious texts are particularly susceptible to engendering such views since they are always open to varying interpretations and fanaticism. Once you combine a belief, no matter how heinous or illogical, with the God and the idea that it comes from God, you then have an almost impossible task convincing fanatics they are wrong.

dcs said...

One of the reasons that the Holy See cannot capitulate on the issue of the Prayer for the Jews is that to do so would be to cast aspersions on Pius XII, who actually defended the Prayer when it still had the word "perfidious" in it.

Gian said...

There is nothing left to say besides what John I said:

"For those who commented that the prayer for the conversion of the Jews should be removed; do you think that the Jews should, or should not, convert to Christianity? If they should, where is the wrong in praying that they should? And if they should not; what is left of Christianity? Most of the New Testament insistently makes the claim that the Jews should follow Christ - that is indeed the implication of the term 'Christ', which means 'Messiah'. The apostles for some time did not even think of trying to convert Gentiles. The idea that trying to convert Jews is anti-semitic can only be true if Christianity is false. But if it is false, there is no point in having any sort of Christian liturgy at all, and this debate is thus pointless."

Anonymous said...

This whole ecumenism dialogue is entirely fake. It's an experiment that has failed. What does it prove, really?

Most of us live true ecumenism everyday. We have families and co-workers who are from all walks of life including different religions yet we don't sit around asking each other what we want changed about the other's religion to get along better.

We get together discuss things we have in common, work toward common goals, and have fun. Not a big "dialogue" session which would be falsely contrived and self-serving.

My friends and family know that I pray for them to convert to Catholicism. The evangelicals in the family pray for me too since they consider the Church Babylon. Who cares? I know the Truth and as long as noone is rude or disrespectful then we get together for common holidays and get along very well.

If they have questions about the Faith then we discuss it but I certainly would never permit anyone trying to force me and my family to change how we practice our Catholic faith.

I suspect most faithful Catholic laity live true ecumenism every day. So what do these councils think they're accomplishing? It certainly isn't winning any converts.

Deborah

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the Jews will think of removing derogatory references to Jesus from the Talmud in response to this Vatican acknowledgement that the reference to Jews in the liturgy is a problem

Bull! If Jews were going to do this, they would have done it 45 years ago. Since when has ANYONE given anything to the Church in return for her overtures of good will?!

Stanislas said...

There are actually people who think they can change a 1600 year old organically grown Roman Rite prayer for the conversion of the not yet Christ-believing Jews, just like that? We do not belong to the Anglican sect or some human-made institution, but to the eternal holy, apostolic, one, Catholic and Roman Church which is the one and only Mystical Body of Christ (cfr. Humani generis, 1950, par. 27).

If they will change the prayer for the conversion of those Jews not yet believing in their only and our only Messiah and Redeemer - a prayer which is not antisemitic as both Fr. Maksymilian Kolbe and Bl. Titus Brandsma O.Carm. yearly said this prayer fully without any "antisemitic" feelings at all - this will trigger immense reaction from the Society of St. Pius X, which in fact continues to use even the perfidis (unbelieving, faithless) adjective (doctrinally correctly).

To eliminate this prayer would be to me tantamount to public heresy.

Joseph Z said...

Paddy said: "Change the prayer, and you will have to change the New Testament as well - namely 2 Corinthians 3:15, on which the prayer is directly based. Have a read!"

May I still suggest (my previous post was removed by the moderator for reasons I do not understand) that perhaps what is being wrestled with by the powers that be are the historical reality of the Holocaust AND this inspired comment by St. Paul in I Corinthians 10:35-11:1, "Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved. Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." This too is in the NT and thus inspired by none other than God Himself. We must obey it. Think about it.

Tom said...

Joseph Z

Offence here isn't just a subjective notion. It depends on whether people ought to be upset. And no one ought to be upset if we pray for their conversion. And do not assume that all the powers that be are struggling to replace this prayer as some in the US bishops' conference might be. Many seem to forget that one essential party to this is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Last July its Secretary, Archbishop Amato, made their position very clear in an official interview in Avvenire:

Q: Your Excellency, there are those who accuse the motu proprio “Summorum Pontificum” of being anti-conciliar, because it offers full citizenship to a missal in which there is a prayer for the conversion of the Jews. Is it truly contrary to the letter and spirit of the Council to formulate this prayer?

A: Certainly not. In the Mass, we Catholics pray always and in the first place for our conversion. And we strike our breasts for our sins. And then we pray for the conversion of all Christians and all non-Christians. The Gospel is for all.”

Q: But the objection is raised that the prayer for the conversion of the Jews was definitively surpassed by the one in which the Lord is asked to help them to progress in fidelity to his covenant.

A: Jesus himself affirms, in the Gospel of Saint Mark: “Repent, and believe in the Gospel,” and his first interlocutors were his Jewish confreres. We Christians can do nothing other than re-propose what Jesus taught us. In freedom and without imposition, obviously, but also without self-censorship.

In the light of this Mgr Perl's dismissal of the problem is not a huge surprise. Nor is the justice of his dismissal of it. People should get real both about the true theology of the question, and about the opinion of the genuine powers that be in the Church about this theology.

Joe of St. Thérèse said...

My philosiphy to the Good Friday Prayer, if you can't handle it, too bad. The Jews do not have a right to dictate our Liturgy.