Rorate Caeli

Eminenz, it seems you are going elsewhere

From Cardinal Lehmann, 75, Bishop of Mainz, to a question posed by a reader of the Allgemeine Zeitung, following the Instruction Universae Ecclesiae (reported by Kath.net):
Confirmation in the old rite? "I will not do it, they should go elsewhere."

Mainz (kath.net) - "The fact that people may want a confirmation according to the old rite is nonsense, I believe." So answered Cardinal Karl Lehmann, Bishop of Mainz, to a question in a reader forum of the "Allgemeine Zeitung".

However, he did not completely reject the Mass in the extraordinary form: "there are in our diocese, after all, five or six groups with the opportunity to celebrate them," the Cardinal told  the newspaper. But a confirmation according to the old rite? "I will not do it, they should go elsewhere."

53 comments:

Anonymous said...

Being 75, my guess is: the good Cardinal will be the one going elsewhere.

New Catholic said...

This first comment was so good, I had to change the post's title...

Hilary Jane Margaret White said...

Whoah, I never knew he was so deeply pastoral. What a hero!

A Canberra Observer said...

And, like Bp William Morris, formerly Bishop of Toowoomba, he likes to wear a clown suit [true story - Bp Morris presiding at a youth liturgy with clown accoutrements]

New Catholic said...

Not saying you said that (you did not), but just to clarify that this old image was not taken in a liturgical setting, but in a Carnival celebration.

Brian said...

"They should go elsewhere."

I know of lovely, stable, devout families with children who have done just what Cardinal Lehmann proposes. They left "indult" parishes for the SSPX over this very issue.

Are they to be condemned as schismatic?

oremusrob said...

It's an interesting point. I assume a Latin-rite bishop has the right to perform Novus Ordo confirmations only, is this true?

Bernonensis said...

How did he get my bathrobe and why is he wearing it in public?

Anonymous said...

@ New Catholic

The first comment is not very sensible, since the Holy Father has already declined the resignation of Cardinal Lehmann.

All the faithful catholics in Germany waited for years for his Eminence to become 75, we couldn't await his resignation for he is one of the most aggressive liberal and faith destroying Bishop in Germany. But now we feel like back-stabbed by the Holy Father.

New Catholic said...

Well, eventually he will go, right?... Ah, some Cardinals of the Holy Roman Church!

New Catholic said...

Oremusrob, no, that is not right: Summorum was clear about it, UE is even clearer.

Anonymous said...

That a Cardinal, a Prince of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, would make such a statement: "I will not do it"... recalls to mind the statement made by Lucifer: "I will not serve or non serviam". It is incredible that this man continues to occupy a position that ostensibly shows he has jurisdiction and faculties while others do not.

If it were up to me and it is not, I would suspend this man immediately and send him to a monastery out in the desert somewhere. But he is a modernist in the camp of the modernists and nothing will happen to him - nothing, that is, until he meets his Maker and then Oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth as he receives his due recompense. Nevertheless, he deserves our prayers and he will get them in the hope that Our Lord will be merciful both to him and to us.

LtCol Paul E. Haley, USAF(Ret)

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Lehmann was appointed Bishop of Mainz by Pope John Paul II on 23 June 1983 and consecrated on 2 October of the same year by his predecessor Cardinal Hermann Volk in Mainz Cathedral.

In September 1987 the Bishop became chairman of the Conference of the German Bishops.

He was subsequently reelected in 1993, 1999 and 2005.

On 28 January 2001, Pope John Paul II appointed him Cardinal-Priest of the titular church of S. Leone I.

Athelstane said...

This lack of pastoral sensitivity - or should I say highly selective employment thereof? - on the part of Cardinal Lehmann is, alas, nothing new, but there's no guarantee his imminent successor will be much better.

The reality is that the Pope only has a limited say in who takes the post. Under the terms of the concordat governing Germany's relations with the Holy See, German sees retain provision for the election of the diocesan bishop by their respective cathedral chapters, with Rome confirming the choice. Admittedly, the groups of clerics are bound to choose from the three-name terna for the post presented by the Vatican. We can only hope for a uniformly strong terna.

Andreas said...

Brian wrote: "They left "indult" parishes for the SSPX over this very issue. Are they to be condemned as schismatic?"

Could it really be schismatic to follow the instructions of a cardinal of the Holy Roman Church?

Lee Lovelock-Jemmott said...

Defrock this agent of The Devil. He belongs in a Civil Service outfit rather than in The Most Holy Institution of Our Lord upon Earth.

Long-Skirts said...

Bernonensis said...
How did he get my bathrobe and why is he wearing it in public?

VILE

Vile, vile,
Down the aisle
Narcissistic freaks they file,

Not the fools
Who feign their gaiety...
But tolerant white sepulchred laity.

GE said...

What profound pastoral solicitude.

Anonymous said...

Soon he will be elsewhere, into retirement. That's another thing priest's retiring? Let God retire them by death. How can you retire from God? Do lay people stop going to church at their retirement, the whole concept is nonsense. Unless for illness of course.

Anonymous said...

A "full communion" Churchmen who serves stones to his spiritual children.

Who is surprised by that?

Tom

Anonymous said...

It is simple...do as he says. Go elsewhere. Not a problem.

Anonymous said...

I'm picturing myself in the hat he is wearing...

Delphina

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Lehmann isn't going anywhere. The pope likes him.

Delphina

Anonymous said...

Who would want to be confirmed by him? All things considered, it would be a more fitting and sacred ceremony (although an equally valid Sacrament -- no Donatist, I) with someone who wishes to perform it than someone who does not. Additionally, the children of his diocese who end up "going elsewhere" for Confirmation will be among the few who do not have to mention Lehmann's name when they recall the peaks in their religious life. So they make out better than the other children in Mainz in that regard. Cf. who, given their choice, would want to be confirmed or ordained by Card. Mahony?

~Bonifacius

LeonG said...

Cardinal Lemon needs to be squeezed from episcopal power.

Jack said...

\\I assume a Latin-rite bishop has the right to perform Novus Ordo confirmations only, is this true?\\

The local Latin bishop requested the EF mission to be patient, and accept confirmation in the revised rite a few years ago until he was more comfortable with the older rite.

He has as of last year administered Confirmation in the older rite. He also used it to consecrate their Altar Stone when they bought their own building.

Can someone tell me what the older rite of Confirmation confers that the newer rite does not?

Anonymous said...

Ah, yes, I well remember that day in the first year of the new millennium (which began on 1 January, 2001 and not 1 January, 2000) when the German hierarchy, using economic 'incentives', forced John Paul II to elevate Kasper and Lehmann. A certain Cardinal Ratzinger apparently opposed the move, and for good reason. Kasper is now but the whiff of a bad memory, like an unpleasant odour no longer lingering but still remembered with distaste. He failed utterly to bring us closer to the Protestants. The more he talk-talk-talked, the more they moved into even further into rank heresy.

Now Lehmann has just turned 75. It is like a new birth into the garden of retirement. All he needs now is a wet nurse and a wheelchair. If he cannot use them, his ideas certainly can. They hobble themselves.

Bishop Schraml of Passau will soon turn 76 and Cardinal Meisner is 77½ and has been Archbishop of Cologne since 1980. So it would seem too insulting to the liberals to allow Lehmann to be dumped this year. After all, da Cruc Policarpo of Lisbon, another archliberal, is now 75 but says he will be staying for another two years.

So, I have no prediction on this one. Lehmann might stay for two or three more years, or he might go this year. The Pope did retire his confrère in Berlin, another Cardinal, shortly after he turned 75. So it's very hard to say what will happen.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

N.C. writes:

"but just to clarify that this old image was not taken in a liturgical setting, but in a Carnival celebration."

Oh, you mean that this was during the New Mass?

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Canberra Observer writes:

"And, like Bp William Morris, formerly Bishop of Toowoomba, he likes to wear a clown suit [true story - Bp Morris presiding at a youth liturgy with clown accoutrements]"

Like many liberals, he cannot be faulted for his honesty.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

Dear Col. Haley:

It's all about money. German taxpayers feed the Vatican. It's the same reason Rome has moved heaven and earth to welcome the FiF compromise Anglicans while leaving the TAC out in the ecold. The FiF is from the esTABlishment of the Church of England; it is as respectable as any pharisee.

Follow the money, dear Colonel.

P.K.T.P.

Bernonensis said...

Long Skirts,
I'll have you know, Sir or Madam, that my sepulchre is of highly polished gray sandstone, and I am sufficiently intolerant of foolishness, whether clerical or lay.

Hope Springs Eternal said...

I must say that I chuckled at the first comment. By 75, most of us will have one foot in the ground.

BTW: Where is Elsewhere?

In the medical industry, St. Elsewhere refers to hospitals that serve patients not wanted by more prestigious institutions.

Does this resonate with anyone in their Catholic Community?

Anonymous said...

Jack asks,


Can someone tell me what the older rite of Confirmation confers that the newer rite does not?"

How about dignity, reverence, tradition?

P.K.T.P.

Jack said...

PKTP, you expressed concern for the TAC.

At least the TAC in the United States owns some church buildings. Those clergy of FIF gave up rectories and salaries, and the faithful gave up their ancient churches.

In any case, I found this interview with Donald Cardinal Wuerl of Washington, DC, who is the contact person for Anglicans interested in the Ordinariate. I pray it prospers here.

http://ordinariateportal.wordpress.com/2011/05/24/joan-lewis-ewtn-interview-with-cardinal-donald-wuerl-on-the-ordinariate/

Hope Springs Eternal said...

P.K.T.P - I'd like to add "slap on the cheek" to your fine list.

Louis E. said...

PKTP,
Cardinal Sterzinsky of Berlin is extremely ill,which is why he was retired promptly.(Cardinal Lehmann cited illness three years ago in stepping down as head of the German bishops' conference in midterm,but is it clear how soon Rome will be presenting a terna to the Chapter of Mainz?)

In its current incarnation that see is not clearly cardinalitial,and perhaps if the chosen prelate is not to the Pope's liking elevation to the College will elude him.

Jack said...

\\Can someone tell me what the older rite of Confirmation confers that the newer rite does not?"

How about dignity, reverence, tradition?\\

These are not among the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And ANY authorized rite of the Church can be celebrated with dignity, reverence, and tradition--or their opposites.

Hope Springs Eternal said...

I disagree with you Jack. Tradition, dignity, and reverence can all be classified under the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Piety, Knowledge, and Understanding (not to mention Wisdom) are some of the gifts we are supposed to receive at Confirmation.

I was a Confirmation teacher in our NO parish and attended the Confirmation of the "new form" and saw the mockery first hand. The bishop used Holy Chrism on a young boy's forehead and thought it would be "cute" to rub it all over his hair. Well, the bishop received the laughs he was looking for . . . I am honored to teach Confirmation, but I will never attend the Confirmation in this form again, because in all honesty, I am not sure what they actually receive (if anything). My children were Confirmed by the SSPX and I know exactly what was given to them that day.

Come Holy Ghost fill the hearts of Thy faithful!

Anonymous said...

The bishop used Holy Chrism on a young boy's forehead and thought it would be "cute" to rub it all over his hair.

That's not all. In today's NO version of Baptism, the priest sometimes pours the water over the top of the head (not the forehead) and the hair of the person being baptized - not to mention the "baptism pools" in some NO churches where full body immersion is sometimes practiced. "What was formerly held as sacred is now sacred for us as well." Really? You could've fooled me. Abraham Maslow would be proud of the self-actualization antics present in the NO liturgies of today.

LtCol Paul E. Haley, USAF(Ret)

Jack said...

\\Tradition, dignity, and reverence can all be classified under the gifts of the Holy Ghost.\\

Not on any catechetical list I've seen.

In any case, the New Rite confers JUST AS MUCH of the Holy Spirit as does the Old Rite--or Byzantine Rite, for that matter.

We receive Him complete in all His fullness, not just a piece of Him.

Jack said...

'\\In today's NO version of Baptism, the priest sometimes pours the water over the top of the head (not the forehead) and the hair of the person being baptized - not to mention the "baptism pools" in some NO churches where full body immersion is sometimes practiced.\\

The Catholic Church has ALWAYS permitted total immersion. In fact, it's the norm in Byzantine Catholic, Orthodox, and other Eastern Churches, and Rome has NEVER denied this validity.

In fact, I recall seeing a picture of a baby being baptized by immersion in the St. Joseph's edition of the Baltimore Catechism.

Anonymous said...

The Catholic Church has ALWAYS permitted total immersion. In fact, it's the norm in Byzantine Catholic, Orthodox, and other Eastern Churches, and Rome has NEVER denied this validity.

True enough, Jack, but my point was simply that the modernists had to change things from what they were prior to Vatican II and even in some cases had to remodel churches for these baptism pools. I never said anything about validity.

LtCol Paul E. Haley, USAF(Ret)

Jack said...

\\True enough, Jack, but my point was simply that the modernists had to change things from what they were prior to Vatican II and even in some cases had to remodel churches for these baptism pools. I never said anything about validity.\\

Actually, the substitution of affusion for immersion is itself the change, not returning to immersion.

Hope Springs Eternal said...

Jack - If what you say is true, then where are the fruits? Can you provide any evidence of the fullness of grace flowing from sacraments in this form? Are you seeing more vocations somewhere? Do you see more youth bearing the fruits of the Holy Ghost and defending their faith as soldiers of Christ?

Jordanes551 said...

Actually, the substitution of affusion for immersion is itself the change, not returning to immersion.

That's not quite so. The Didache shows that affusion was always an acceptable mode of baptism ever since the time of the apostles. Immersion was preferred by the Twelve Apostles and their disciples, but if one did not have enough water to immerse, then the instructions were to pour water on the head three times in the Name of the Blessed Trinity.

Returning to immersion is a change. But it's a matter of indifference. There is no need that one go to the trouble to immerse, and no need that one make a stink about affusion vs. immersion.

Jordanes551 said...

Hope Springs Eternal, is it your contention that the reformed sacraments in the Roman Rite are defective or invalid?

Hope Springs Eternal said...

Jordanes551 - It is not my place to determine whether they are invalid or not (only God knows); however, Our Lord reminds us that "by their fruits you will know them," which seems to suggest that we should remain alert to possible aberrancies.

An informed conscience should question those things which do not align with Christ's teaching. When in doubt, we must look further and remember that the end does not justify the means.

Jack said...

\\Jack - If what you say is true, then where are the fruits? Can you provide any evidence of the fullness of grace flowing from sacraments in this form?\\

Is it your contention that the Roman Church has officially promugated forms that are NOT grace-filled and salvific?

There's a fall-off of vocations EVERYWHERE, even in the Byzantine Churches, Orthodox and Catholic, who have not revised rites.

Jordanes551 said...

It is not my place to determine whether they are invalid or not (only God knows)

Wrong. God is not the only one who knows that the Church's sacraments are valid and efficacious. All faithful Catholics know that. It is your place to believe it. The Church cannot lose the means of salvation, can never formally bind the faithful to false teaching and fake sacraments, can never be separated from her Head, and can never formally promulgate sacramental rites that do not effect what they signify. One may talk of the comparative beauty and dignity of various ritual forms, or the excellence or unworthiness of a sacramental ministers ars celebrandi, but may never allow that it might be that the Church's sacraments are void.

Hope Springs Eternal said...

Jack - Tradition is irreformable.

Jordanes551 - St. Paul warned us: “Even if an angel from Heaven came to tell you anything other than what I have taught you, do not listen to him.”

Peace+

Jordanes551 said...

Sounds to me like a good reason not to listen to your suggestion that the Church may have formally promulgated invalid sacraments.

Jack said...

\\Jack - Tradition is irreformable.\\

But liturgical rites are. They have been tinkered with in one way or the other throughout the centuries everywhere.

Jordannes551--I agree with you.

Anonymous said...

Many people who clearly accepted the binding character of the Second Vatican Council, and were faithful to the Pope and the Bishops, nonetheless also desired to recover the form of the sacred liturgy that was dear to them. This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.

These words in Pope's letter to the Bishops accompanying SP indicate to me that not all changes to the liturgy are prudent or useful (arbitrary deformations is what the pope has called them).

The Modernists clearly had an agenda that was not necessarily shared by all the council fathers and the Missal of Paul VI was never actually seen or approved by the council before its introduction in 1969 or thereabouts. Indeed, as the holy father said the new missal was seen as giving the leeway necessary to institute these "deformations." Now, he is trying to reform the liturgy to get it back on track but without throwing out the baby with the bath water so-to-speak.

My own opinion in this for what it's worth is that it will not be successful because too much time has passed and too many deformations, as he calls them, have been introduced into the NO around the world. But, an Apostolic Administration for Tradition - now, that would work IMO and it would change the course of Catholic history for the better, much better, I would think!

LtCol Paul E. Haley, USAF(Ret)