Rorate Caeli

"Reform of the Reform" Apparently Put on Hold - Part Zwei

26 comments:

Father Shelton said...

I wonder if there are female servers in the Diocese of Rome. I've never noticed them at televised Vatican Masses.

Henry said...

Is is possible that someone might object (as I do) to girls actually serving at the altar, but not object so much to girls merely acting as candle-bearers--and thus not assisting with the purification of hands and vessels, in the presentation of offerings, transfer of missal, etc.

It seemed to me that girls in these Masses may have been restricted to this very subsidiary and basically decorative role, which somehow seems less offensive. If so, this "distancing" of girls from the altar itself may represent some progress. Wouldn't it at least be a good first corrective step in U.S. parishes, where frequently most actual altar servers are girls?

Anonymous said...

"reform of the reform" N'importe quoi! Today we see Putin returning to the world stage. How could this possibly have anything to do with alter girls? It's all coming together exactly as Lucia from Fatima and many other saints said it would. The clock is ticking.

LeonG said...

" girls in these Masses may have been restricted to this very subsidiary and basically decorative role, which somehow seems less offensive...."

It appears immensely equivocal of people who constantly endeavour to make excuses for actions that are always basically ill-conceived at best and downright subversive at worst. There should be no females on the sanctuary at all, in the first place.
How can there be a reform of a reform that never was in the first place?
This tour is once again replete with ambiguities and compromises. No wonder German churches are emptying out at an increasing tempo.

Jack B. said...

Those "altar girls" look a bit older, more like women.

Louis said...

Father Shelton,
Sorry, wrong event in my last post. The girl mitre and crosier bearers appeared at San Giovanni della Croce on Sunday 7 March 2010.

Here's the evidence: http://theratzingerforum.yuku.com/sreply/58042/Papal-clothing-and-liturgical-practices

Anonymous said...

Henry:

No, the sanctuary is for males alone, and the various rôles in the processions afford needed opportunities to train boys and men from the simplest to the most complex tasks, from boat-boy and torchbearer to M.C. This mirrors the rankings in the clergy itself, from porter to priest. It assumes an entire liturgical culture that trains males for their sacral function at Mass and Office.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

This is Rome playing hardball in her subtle way: reform for TrueMass but not for NewMass, Assisi III, W.Y.D., the papal eirenic overtures to infidels and Lutherans in Germany, the takeover of the ordinariates by Novus Ordo Anglicans and abandonment of the TAC, restricting S.P. through U.E. (to some extent), talk of preparing for the next conclave.

The S.S.P.X should be very very careful!

P.K.T.P.

Adfero said...

Henry, with all due respect, it's hard enough with the step by step approach. Your scenario at best would be a quarter step by quarter step.

This is why the reform of the reform is a joke. We have everything we need to properly worship God. And that's the full traditional liturgy.

MCITL said...

@ Henry: yes, in the Church we must always look for progress toward reform and true renewal, especially in Germany where the effects of disobedience have been especially severe and will take longer to eradicate. Festina lente.

J.G. Ratkaj said...

It was reported that tomorrow the mass in Freiburg/breisgau will entirely be sung in german much to the annoyance of Monsignore Marini. Liturgically this apostolic visit accorded with the extremely low niveau of the german church.

pclaudel said...

"When are the girl altarboys going to finally leave the papal sanctuary?"

Not, alas, while the Holy Father lives.

Adfero said...

"It was reported that tomorrow the mass in Freiburg/breisgau will entirely be sung in german much to the annoyance of Monsignore Marini."

Msgr. Marini is the PAPAL MC.

Are we really supposed to believe they have no control over these wretched liturgies when they travel the world?

Long-Skirts said...

"When are the girl altarboys going to finally leave the papal sanctuary?"

THE
EMPEROR'S
NEW
GIRLS

The crowd was large
As the Pope said the Mass
In Westminster Cathedral
A little Latin for class
A little English too
Outside liberals made noise
Then my son asked of me
"Why are there Alter girl boys?"

(Sept. 2010)

Henry said...

PKTP:

"No, the sanctuary is for males alone . . . "

You merely state what surely common ground among us here. (And therefore, perhaps, need not be said once again.)

I merely stated what surely is also common ground among us -- that it's best not to see see girls serving directly at the altar itself.

Jonvilas said...

Well, it looks more like Altarfrauen, i.e. German Altar Matronas or ladies, rather than altargirls. If the new generation of these are not coming, that means that we have a chance to see, when this happens. :)

Jack O'Malley said...

On target points from Mr. Perkins. I applauded this pope's accepto six years ago but have begun to despair of his resolve. I still see him and Rahner in suit and tie. Die Schlipspriester.

FSSPX: Tua Excellentia, cave canum! Rome ne vaut point une messe bâtarde!

El Juan said...

Well, at least it was with a Benedictine arrangement...

New Catholic said...

It's more like a Frau Altarboy.

NC, back from recess.

Adfero said...

Well, if these chicks aren't enough to offend you, there's plenty of pictures of girl altar boys from the first papal Mass in choir dress and at the altar. What great reform!

Anonymous said...

I am afraid that Altargirls are considered in the minds of many, if not most, of American Catholic women as a victory for feminism which should enjoy the untouchable status of political correctness in public discourse. Probably, most married males who disapprove of altargirls would find life easier if they avoid discussion of the subject with their wives. Altargirls shouldn't be, but...

Anonymous said...

Ok, enough of these women, girls serving at the altar. Reform of the reform? Utter nonsense, do you want us to believe Marini has no idea there would be females at the Papal Masses in Germany? With the TLM there is no need for reform.

Adfero said...

Do you think Marini would let clowns take part? No, of course not. Yet he allows girls. And the pope allows him to allow girls. That is all we need to know ...

Gratias said...

Altar girls are the norm in American Novus Ordo masses. Women Eucharistic ministers distribute the host all the time. The Pope has to adapt to the local bishops' liturgies. Surely there were plenty of women involved in his last Mass in New York.

What counts for us is the Summorum Pontificum legislation. We now have to work hard to bring back our Mass. In the meantime the New Order remains the ordinary form for over 99% of practicing Catholics, our brothers.

Adfero said...

"In the meantime the New Order remains the ordinary form for over 99% of practicing Catholics, our brothers."

So what?

The Arian heresy infiltrated over 90 percent of the world's bishops but St. Athanasius didn't "adapt" he fought back.

I'm not saying the NO is heresy. However, it's certainly not what God deserves, no matter how much people are accustomed to it.

Rip it off like a band-aid ...

Anonymous said...

I've read before somewhere that before the Holy Father travels somewhere, the papal MC explicitly insists that only male altar servers should be used.

However, as the selection of the altar serves is customarily done by the local diocese, this wish is often (deliberately!) ignored. Same problem with the music selection. Done by the local bigshots - just see the catastropic music used in Berlin.

In papal masses in Rome, you will NEVER see female "altar servers".