Rorate Caeli

From his own mouth: how the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way interpreted the January 20 "approval"

Exactly as our blog predicted a few days ago: the NCW will interpret the January 20 decree of the Pontifical Council of the Laity regarding their catechetical celebrations as a blanket approval of their doctrinal teachings and liturgical practices. (See Neocatechumenal Rite approved? Let's call it the New Liturgical Way.)

By the way, our East Asian and Eastern Orthodox readers might be interested in what Kiko Argüello says near the end of the interview. 

Emphases mine. 

From Zenit:

FOUNDER'S THANKSGIVING 
Kiko Argüello Shares Impressions of Papal Audience 
By Salvatore Cernuzio  
ROME, JAN. 20, 2012 (Zenit.org).- Joy is still sparkling in Kiko Argüello's eyes a few moments after the Neocatechumenal Way founder leaves this morning's audience with Benedict XVI. With good reason: After a decade and a half of study, the Vatican announced today that the celebrations used by the Way along the journey of Christian initiation have the Church's approval. After speaking with Argüello shortly before the audience, ZENIT caught up with him again right afterward.  

ZENIT: Kiko, let's start with a simple question: how did the meeting this morning go?  

Argüello: Fantastic! It was really wonderful that the celebrations that mark all the stages of Christian gestation that the Way has created, have been confirmed. We were waiting for this moment, and finally the Church has confirmed the Neocatechumenal Way as a Christian initiation, in its doctrine, liturgy and its stages. (In the original Italian: Aspettavamo questo momento, e finalmente la Chiesa ha confermato il Cammino Neocatecumenale come iniziazione cristiana, nella sua dottrina, nelle liturgie e nelle tappe -- Augustinus) What is important, above all, is the fact that the Pope has reiterated that the communities can celebrate the Sunday Mass as a community. It is a sociological fact of immense importance, which means that the small community is the salvation for the New Evangelization. The Eucharist, in fact, creates and forms the Christian community, it makes it stable, unites it. 

ZENIT: And with regard to the missio ad gentes (the family groups sent on mission by the Pope)? 

Argüello: The missio ad gentes is also a small community in the midst of persons who are completely pagan or far away from the Church. What we see is that these people are attracted to the "small community" represented by the mission families; they are surprised by the love they show to others and among one another. They agree to be catechized in their homes and become, thus, a small community themselves. 

ZENIT: What richness does all this bring to the Church? 

Argüello: We can say that we are writing a new page in history: the new evangelization, in the midst of an epochal crisis affecting all of society, called secularization. A lot of people, we don't know why, "harass" the churches; in some countries, especially European ones, they have arrived at the point of selling or closing them. For this reason, I am happy and surprised when, with these missions ad gentes, in fact, there are people who say "thank you, because otherwise I'd never have entered a church" or give thanks for the "the love and acceptance" they breathe in the houses of these brothers who welcome them. In fact, there are many people who come to catechesis, and who don't want to go away: eleven o'clock at night and they still haven't left. This happens because the people in our society feel very lonely ... 

ZENIT: By now it's been 40 years that the Neocatechumenal Way has continued to bear fruit; just think of the large number of vocations. What do you think of these gifts that the Lord is giving the Way and above all to the Church? 

Argüello: What do I think? ... that the Lord is very good to us. I really thank God, because although we had and we have many difficulties and sufferings, he has has never abandoned us, but always supported and sustained us. The meeting today is a testimony of that. 

ZENIT: In what direction is the Way moving now? 

Argüello: Toward the start-up of a new evangelization all over the world. We are looking toward new horizons; for example, even the Orthodox Church has lately shown interest in our journey of faith. Above all, I believe, however, that we must prepare for China, Vietnam, throughout Asia in short, and in fact we have several families ready to go on mission into the Eastern part of the world.

ZENIT: And besides that, five new seminaries have been created to prepare young people to leave for China? 

Argüello: Exactly! We asked for 20,000 young people who feel called to become priests and evangelize in China, and 5,000 stood up. 
Now these boys will be screened, trained, we have to see who will complete their studies and so on. In short, China, Asia! 

ZENIT: Finally, Kiko, is there anything you would like to say to all those who are part of the Neocatechumenal Way, but also to all Christians? 
Argüello: Yes, I want to express a simple wish for them: to find Christ and find, therefore, the true life that leads to eternal life. I hope that all can really meet with Jesus Christ, because he gives you his nature and his eternal life and changes your existence completely, he helps you and prepares you. [Translation by Peter Waymel]

85 comments:

Francesco said...

I know that Asia is not perfect and is certainly in desperate need of evangelization, but *please* leave it alone, Neocatechumenal Way! Leave the job to traditional, orthodox missionaries. Both traditional Eastern and Western liturgies, teachings, etc. have so much to offer the Chinese and other Asian groups, who have a long-standing love of ritual, order, etc. Why would they want to have anything to do with the chaos and madness of NW? PLEASE leave Asia alone!

New Catholic said...

Thank you, Augustinus.

Exactly as we had foreseen. Not that we are prophets - on the contrary, we have seen over and over again how any approval or "toleration" by the Holy See of an abuse is interpreted as a promotion of the same. The NCW wanted the Vatican "nihil obstat", they have it now, following the 2008 and 2012 decisions, and they will do as they please, including in liturgical matters.

NC

IRISH said...

As I mentioned before, their liturgy is not Catholic. They do not believe the Mass is a sacrifice nor do they believe in transunstantiation yet both of these are dogmas of the Catholic faith which all catholics are bound to believe.
Now even if their heretical liturgy was not approved but only the way itself as some people contend, this would mean that this organisation is seducing millions of catholics every week away from the true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to this false liturgy, so in either case it is doing immense harm to the Church. How is it possible that both John Paul ll and Benedict cannot understand this and they embrace this organisation with loving arms while the SSPX is still not accepted.

Oleg-Michael said...

Here in Russia, the Neocatechumenate folk welcome non-Catholics ("Orthodox" and even Protestants) to their celebrations, routinely welcome them to Communion, make them part of their communities without even suggesting that they could convert to Catholicism. I have even heard that some of them say, "we the Neocatechumens" vs. "you the Catholics".

Ecclesia Militans said...

Well, at least those in Russia admit that they are not Catholic, but something else.

If only the others did, along with some of the other "catholic" cults, the situation would be much clearer for most people.

But the whole modus operandi of the NCW is to lure people with false Catholicism and to seal their fate by converting them to the "NCW religion", which is a crypto-protestant religion of man.

Anyone who takes the Credo out of the liturgy obviously has a problem with anything even remotely termed Christian.

Andrew said...

It will be interesting to see how the Neocats will fare in their attempt to invade the Orthodox churches. They tried to do it in 2006 with the Russians, only to be forced to retreat.

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=47281

Russian Orthodox deny agreement with Neocatechumenate
October 25, 2006

The Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow has denied reports that it has reached an agreement with the Neocatechumenate movement to train Orthodox clerics for evangelization efforts.

In an interview last week with the Zenit new agency, Kiko Arguello, the founder and head of the Catholic lay organization, said that leaders of the Neocatechumenate had come to an arrangement with Orthodox clerics. But a spokesman for the Moscow patriarchate, has told the Interfax news service that Arguello's statement was inaccurate.

Arguello met on October 19 with Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk, the top ecumenical-affairs official for the Moscow patriarchate. "No final agreement waas concluded at the meeting," according to Father Igor Vyzhanov, the Orthodox spokesman. He added that Metropolitan Kirill said that the patriarchate and the Neocatechumenate should take "a closer look at each other's spiritual traditions" before undertaking any joint effort.

Edward said...

He sounds more like a cult leader who the Holy Father is trying to appease in some matters to stall a possible schism with his group. His line that he has 5,000 boys ready to go into China as priests, don't they need to be trained first or is this guy's training sufficient. China i believe will play an important role in evangelizing the fallen West, we don't need this rascal making up his own version of Christianity to mess with things.

New Catholic said...

"He sounds more like a cult leader who the Holy Father is trying to appease in some matters to stall a possible schism with his group."

That seems to be the correct explanation of this matter.

Confusius said...

If Pope Bendict XVI is nearly as intelligent as his reputation suggests, then of course he foresaw the consequences of his recent gesture towards the neo-Cats. The truth is that Vatican II opened the doors to a virus that has attacked the central nervous system of the Church. Those who were involved in Vatican II and the implementation of it's decrees are suffering from some sort of mental sickness. This isn't an insult, just an observation of a situation that is clear for everyone to see. Say something Catholic and traditional one minute, then say or do something that undermines Catholic Tradition irreparably the next minute. Modern German (and especially Austrians) are particularly prone to this tortured way of proceeding. The only thing we should not expect from these people is consistency. But we have Our Lord's promises to His Church, so we know in Faith that this sickness is not unto death

Ecclesia Militans said...

Just because there is an explanation for the approval of this cult, it does not mean that it is right to do so.

It would actually be a good thing if this person would go into open schism.
Then most of the NCW, which are misled and in good will, would be scared of excommunications and would quit the "way". The minority that would remain in open schism are probably not Catholic in the first place.

Which ever way you spin it, it is clear that the Pope cannot be fulfilling his duty of condemning error and protecting the flock from dangerous heresies by approving their statutes and celebrations.

Adfero said...

Yes, quite frankly, I can't believe anyone doubted this. At best it's tacit approval because the pope could have told them to fall in line with the Mass yet he did not.

Torkay said...

I wish someone would make a list of all the actions that Pope Benedict has taken to "avoid schism," and which have resulted in scandal - like this action. I am inclined to think that there is quite a bit of cowardice at work here, combined with the mental illness of modernism cited by Confusius.

Anonymous said...

Catholic News Agency has a story that somewhat contradicts the alarmist tone that's been seen here at Rorate (link can be found at Fr. Z's blog which I'm sure a number of people also browse for enlightenment.)

I was struck with how much of the sourness in comments (both from the blog editors here as well as the commenting population) reminds me in some ways of the logic that supports gun control (whoa, whoa, bear with me for a few more sentences!)

The logic is thus: that the problem of law-breakers can be solved by law-makers.

Create a law that outlaws guns and the law-abiding population will be unarmed while law-breakers will have guns.

In the case of the Church and the NCW, in a similar manner, those that are happily consecrating huge loaves of bread and passing the "cup" are already (as of 2008) notified that they are in violation of liturgical norms. They've already broken and continue to break the rules, so what exactly makes one think that any new rules/ruling will solve anything - especially when existing rules already state how the Liturgy is to be performed.

Furthermore! And this is really depressing to point out: the violations of the NCW are... well... in many ways, not *much* worse in scope or frequency than the liturgical abuses in many, many Dioceses/Parishes in our Roman Catholic Church. If by some miracle Il Papa broke the emergency glass and armed himself with the Emergency Liturgical Fire Axe of Excommunication against the NCW abuses, the entire Curia would essentially be obligated to commence investigations and formal declarations on behalf of many, many, many, many secular and diocesan priests outside of the NCW. Being a part of the Universal Church has many ramifications.

To summarize: I trust Pope Benedict XVI on this matter, I pray that the abuses stop, and certainly I remain aware that people who disregard and abuse the Sacred Liturgy of the Church will always continue to do so.

-Thomas Christopher

Tradical said...

Given the history of the NCW and the hysterics of Helenio Ortiz, I agree that the interpretation by Kiko was fairly predictable.

Just another fruit of V2.

Should be interesting to see if the Pope is as predictable with the way he handles the SSPX.

It seems that if you praise V2, the world is your oyster.

JB said...

I don't see anything in Kiko's comments that suggests that he believes that Pope Benedict has given approval to the way they do Mass. It seems like a positive "spin" in regards to a setback, similar to when a political candidate does not do as well in a primary election as they expected.

Tradfly said...

One occasionally browses Fr. Z's blog for amusement, but certainly not for enlightenment.

Anil Wang said...

In all fairness, the Chiesa article three days later tells a slightly different story:

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350149?eng=y

The NeoCat prayers have been approved on Friday, nothing else. The catechesis was approved earlier (although I strongly believe it has been cleaned up to actually be Catholic and not liberal Protestant, though it might not be in full distribution yet).

The NeoCat "liturgy" has not been approved. The only thing that is accepted is from the 2008 statutes. The only unique concession is: "the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species" and "always with unleavened bread," which the Neocatechumenals must receive "standing, remaining in their own place.". The "sign of peace" move is as is the Ambrosian Rite and the "brief monitions for the readings" is as in the GIRM.

Everything else in the NeoCat "liturgy" is considered liturgical abuse and must be called out as such.

Now I know that 99% of the people here would consider receiving communion "standing, remaining in their own place" to be an abuse or at least a sacrilege. But that is an issue far broader than NCW.

Historically speaking, it is not in itself a sacrilege since it was common place at one time and done with reverence. But it was banned precisely because because it had become irreverent, and given the current climate, it needs to be banned again for exactly the same reasons. It will take time clean up the hurricane caused by VII and it will happen, because the Catholic Church is the true Church.

As for, Helenio Ortiz, he's either a troll (either a sedavantist pretending to be a NCW follower or a NCW follower with a chip on his shoulders). Or he's a new convert from Mormonism that hasn't yet learned the faith and believes that Kiko is the new Joseph Smith. Or he's been badly catechized by one of the Spirit of Vatican II catechists. Or he's on his way out of the Church.

Personally, I think he's sincere and he's either a new convert or he's on this way out of the Church and wants to turn the Church into a Protestant Church because it's easier to fight to change the world than to change yourself. He needs our prayers.

Bartholomew said...

I am at a loss as to why those who are posting the most benign interpretation to this development with the NCW do not see that this is a tacit approval of the Holy See to the NCW's doctrines pertaining to the fact that the Mass is not a sacrifice and that the Eucharist is confected by the assembly and after the assembly disperses the sacrament does as well.

LeonG said...

You are incorrect Mr Arguello, society is not secularising. In fact, people have had enough of banal modernising churches that imitate the world we currently live in. Many of these seek other religious experiences as a substitute. There is ample sociological evidence to demonstrate a society that is turning to alternative religious experiences. In addition, your Way attracts many lonely people as you admit, who are vulnerable. Having spent three years inside your movement in UK & participated in a diocesan inquiry that banned your divisive movement, it is evident to me that your catechists employ psychologically harrying techniques. Your liturgy is not Roman Catholic at all and it is only in these times where the church has lost its own way that you have managed to insinuate your sect in to the new church of the post-conciliar paradigm - indeed, the very same model I heard your catechists ardently criticise and condemn on multiple occasions.

Indeed we do live in very strange times.

Enoch said...

Quote:

"Arguello: Exactly! We asked for 20,000 young people who feel called to become priests and evangelize in China, and 5,000 stood up. Now those boys will be screened, trained, we have to see who will complete their studies and so on."

So, where are these boys to be trained as priests? Does the NCW have their own seminaries? I have some misgivings about those young men being sent to China to evangelize. China doesn't exactly welcome evangelists, especially Catholic ones.

And from what JB mentioned in a comment above, it does seem that Kiko does not think that his mass has been given approval by the pope. That's a good thing. They didn't get all that they wanted.

Enoch said...

Quote from Arguello:

"What we see is that these people who are attracted to the "small community" represented by the mission families, they are surprised by the love they show to others and among one another."

If this love that the mission families show is real and genuine, then that's a really good thing. One of the things they have to be careful of, though, is that they do not become like Mormons or Moonies, in that they train their children to always be nice and show love, as a display to attract others. Fake love is not love at all. True love for others grows with grace, humility, and love for God, which is enabled by frequent reception of the sacraments such as holy communion and penance. It is the example of genuine and sincere holiness, love of God and neighbor, and accepting all that the Church teaches that will attract and help to sustain others; not fake love. Hopefully the NCW's understand this.

Tom the Milkman said...

"...a cult leader who the Holy Father is trying to appease in some matters to stall a possible schism..."

Holy Father, there is no schism to 'stall'... you just opened the main gates to something far worse than schism!

Summorum Pontificum opened a few eyes and hearts. Now, the the Pope's explicit blessing. Kiko and Carmen will work their cultic magic to kill the Catholic Faith. All is fair in love and Rome.

John McFarland said...

Well, as far as I know, there's never been any significant Vatican criticism of the NCW's doctrine or modus operandi.

Nor, whatever else is to be made of it, is there any hint of Vatican criticism associated with the recent approval.

It therefore seems to me that Kiko can fairly conclude, in perfect good faith, that he can and should go full speed ahead.

It's those who see some reservation in the approval who are engaging in dubious hermeneutics.

If the Vatican had any significant non-liturgical reservations about the NCW, it would have been perfectly nuts to give the liturgical approval -- even if one assumes (which is manifestly not the case) that the NCW liturgy is somehow entirely separate from its doctrine and practice.

Augustinus said...

The interview clearly has Mr. Arguello stating that "finally the Church has confirmed the Neocatechumenal Way as a Christian initiation, in its doctrine, liturgy and its stages." The Italian original is just as clear. And YET some here still interpret this statement as an admission on the part of Arguello that his liturgy is NOT confirmed!

Unbelievable, really.

Anil Wang: this post is not about whether the Vatican approved the NCW liturgy, but is about the NCW's spin or interpretation of the Vatican's own statement.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

We are looking toward new horizons; for example, even the Orthodox Church has lately shown interest in our journey of faith.

I am Orthodox and this man is a heretic and utterly delusional if he thinks we have any interest in his weird cult.

Jordanes551 said...

Thomas Christopher, since your comment is not actually anonymous, it has been allowed. When you comment in the future, put your name "Thomas Christopher" in the blank -- don't select the "Anonymous" option. Thanks.

Mr. Commentator said...

John (Ad Orientem):

The 6th comment in this thread has an article on the failed attempt of the NCW to inflitrate the Russian Orthodox Church only 6 years ago.

John (Ad Orientem) said...

Mr. Commentator
The article you referenced is six years old and merely confirms that we want nothing to do with these heretics. There is zero chance of this wacko getting any formal recognition from the Orthodox Church.

If you want to know what we think of him and his cult then send him to Mt Athos for a short visit. I can't however promise you in what manner he will be returned. The monks there tend to take their faith a bit more seriously then the average layman in today's world.

I am having and enjoying rather uncharitable thoughts about how he would be received by monks who have been known to riot at the mention of the word "calendar."

Knight of Malta said...

For those (like myself) who only have an armchair understanding of "The Way", you can better grasp some of their heresies here.

The writer is quite right when he says:

How has Kiko managed to con the Holy father [JPII] so comprehensively ?

Kiko has managed to con the Holy Father by using a very simple sales technique used by all professional salesman, known in the jargon as "pressing hot buttons." What are John Paul II's hot buttons? That's easy: the gospel of life, evangelization and youth.

So whenever Kiko and his cohorts are in the presence of the Holy father they work these three hot buttons like professional salesman.

Johanna said...

"We are looking toward new horizons; for example, even the Orthodox Church has lately shown interest in our journey of faith."
Of course. Presumably that journey of faith would end in Orthodoxy after considerable corrections which Rome doesn't quite find necessary.

authoressaurus said...

This man is a liar and a misrepresenter. He is the voice of Satan.

Tawser said...

The damage control that well intentioned people like Father Z are now engaged in is so disheartening. The crisis in the Roman Church is first and foremost a crisis of ecclesiastical discipline. We don't need more nuanced documents with fine distinctions. We need enforcement! It has been fifty years now and the leaders of the church seem incapable of grasping that simple fact. The Maciel debacle did not wake them up. The homosexual priest scandal did not wake them up. What is it going to take? Where is "God's Rottweiler" when we need him? He's turned into a cocker spaniel! And a neutered cocker spaniel at that.

Tradical said...

Hi All,

If Kiko et al, obey the bishops and comply with the liturgy books etc - would that be a sign of a change of heart?

Ivan K said...

But wait. Just yesterday, CNA quoted an "Unnamed Vatican official" as saying that the NCW eucharistic dance party hasn't been approved. What are you worried about? Things always work out when that saintly, courageous, and orthodox "unnamed Vatican official" takes charge. He's our Batman!

Knight of Malta said...

Ivan: Things always work out when that saintly, courageous, and orthodox "unnamed Vatican official" takes charge. He's our Batman!

That's funny dude; I almost missed it!

Jordanes551 said...

The interview clearly has Mr. Arguello stating that "finally the Church has confirmed the Neocatechumenal Way as a Christian initiation, in its doctrine, liturgy and its stages." The Italian original is just as clear. And YET some here still interpret this statement as an admission on the part of Arguello that his liturgy is NOT confirmed!

No, he's clearly not admitting that his illicit liturgy has not been approved. Rather, he seems to be claiming that the Vatican has approved his non-Catholic liturgy, which he knows perfectly well is not true. He's trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

The impression I have is that the Vatican has been endeavoring to sift out and eliminate the deliberate liturgical deformations and heretical teachings of the Neochattanoogachuchumenal Way. I can appreciate the hope of salvaging whatever they can from this movement, but it would be better in my view if Rome would simply suppress this peculiar movement. Kiko evidently is not dealing with the Church in good faith, and seems to think his beliefs should supplant what the Church has always and will always believe.

Jordanes551 said...

If Kiko et al, obey the bishops and comply with the liturgy books etc - would that be a sign of a change of heart?

It might be a sign of a change of heart, and at any rate it would be a good sign.

But I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see evidence of their compliance . . . . We may be pleasantly surprised, but that's not where the smart money would go.

Baffled said...

They're ok but the SSPX isn't? Wow!

Long-Skirts said...

THE
Vati – CATS
MEE – OW!!

You-cat
Neo-cat
Oh so very
Hip

Like rowing Michael’s
Boat ashore
In 1960’s
Ship

Clap your
Hands
Celebrate
A Mass-McHappy-meal

Don’t do –
What is right –
Do only what
You feel

“Imagine there’s
No Heaven -
It’s easy if
You try”

Cat’s the way -
Cat’s the life –
So the Cat-lick Faith
Can die!

Knight of Malta said...

of course the Novus Ordo is the archetype of the "Way" inasmuch as the former was the harbinger of the latter.

What I mean by that is quite simply this: once you let cats out of the bags you can't herd them back in!

Mike B. said...

My Parish had a 'Neocatechumenal Vespers Service' on a Friday evening a few weeks back. We congregated as we would normally be situated and the Music/Vocal was inspirational. I'm no scholar and found no problems that I could see or hear.

Actually I sensed a strong presence of the Holy Spirit.

St Petersburg, Fl

Gratias said...

I dislike guitars in Mass. Kiko is a guitar players. He probably thinks chitara means guitar, while it means harp.

Most of all, I dislike the tambourines of the Novus Ordo.

Woody said...

From Sandro Magister:

"The pope finally reiterated that "the celebration in the small communities" must be "regulated by the liturgical books, which must be followed faithfully," although "with the particularities approved in the statutes of the Way."

In the statutes of 2008, the particularities permitted are two.

...
The second is the moving "ad experimentum" of "the rite of peace to after the intercessions," or before the offertory, as has always been done in the Ambrosian rite, in use in the archdiocese of Milan."

This placement of the "rite of peace" is also the norm in the Book of Divine Worship (pace Peter Perkins). I believe some at least conservative commentators in the past (e.g. in HPR) have commended it.

John Fisher said...

Seminaries? Even the famous George Cardinal Pell has been so unwise as to give land and support to the NCW for a seminary in the Archdiocse of Sydney. Also Bishop Hickey in Perth. These men have sown a seed that will destroy these diocese if not rooted out. The NCW imports seminarians from 3rd world countries attracted by belonging, food, Western standards of living. South Americans are still in the thrall of their Spanish colonial masters. They might think Kiko another another Bolivar. Why do humans think that cults are where they belong? Why are they so easily bought?

John Fisher said...

"'Neocatechumenal Vespers Service' on a Friday evening a few weeks back. We congregated as we would normally be situated and the Music/Vocal was inspirational. I'm no scholar and found no problems that I could see or hear.

Actually I sensed a strong presence of the Holy Spirit."

1/ Was it chanted using the plain chant? Did it follow the Roman Office?
Or was it made up with modern music ...by Kiko?

2/ How can you tell if the Holy Spirit is present? Did it feeel good. Just a weird observation!

Catholics get this. WEEEEEE conform ourselves to the Church's tradition. WE do not make it up as we want. That is the NCW. In fact their is and can be no movement called the neo catechuminate! Why? Because catechumins are those preparing for baptism.
End of story Kiko! The baptised cannot be catechumins. Why not call yourselves the Neo Kikochuminal Way!

Devastated in the Vineyard said...

Bravo Long-Skirts! One of your best ever!

MKT said...

The "hot buttons" comment seems to me to be the reason why the Holy Father was coerced or convinced to play with this "fire" of sorts.

Neo-cats are big on natural family planning and, though I am no expert, would be among the quantitative leaders in the Novus Ordo Church of those having large numbers of children.

It is my view that this is probably the reason, along with political pressure of Bugnini-lover power mongers in the Vatican, who (rightly) see the Neo-Cats as one of "Bugnini's fruits" (New Catholic had posted the link between Bugnini and NCW earlier), why the Pope gave this franken-sect a chance. Approving this and that, withholding approval for this and that.

But as has been correctly noted on this posting, partial approval in the heady post-V2 days is *always* interpreted as total approval ... unless the partial approval pertains to the "mass of Pope St Pius V" viz SP and UE. In that case, the word "partial" - as in "partial communion" is always clearly enunciated.

I am so saddened by this about-face on the part of Pope Benedict XVI who just 5 years ago was so forceful in his warning to the Kiko-ites.

Francisco B. said...

I must warn all of you to take seriously what H. Ortiz says.

I was a member of the NCW in Madrid and Ortiz is what one calls the "eminence grise". He's very influential and very close to Kiko and Carmen.

If one could put people on a command platform, Ortiz would be in the first top 10 of NCW and in the 3 top places in Spain.

He usually doesn't act this way, unless there are strict orders by Kiko to do the 'dirty job'. I mean reacting like this without fingers pointed at Kiko.

He was famous during 3 - 4 years ago by attacking Cardinal Arinze and was at the time often in Rome.

I hope this helps you a bit.

Miles Dei said...

If you know spanish read it.

http://es.scribd.com/doc/78339176/Catequistas-2011-Final

I put some quotes from this october-2011 "mamotreto" in my blog.

Yo can learn what they think and begin to pray.

Igumen Gregory said...

i suppose one might have to wait a few years more to see whether or not some great scandal hits the NeoCats. Very often these weird groups have a propensity for a bit of mind control. I believe that the Pope was ill advised in giving them the official go ahead.

LeonG said...

"Most of all, I dislike the tambourines of the Novus Ordo."

Gratias Said

Is that all?

LeonG said...

"They're ok but the SSPX isn't? Wow!" Baffled Said

Yes, very strange times indeed!

Marko Ivančičević said...

http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2012/01/vatican-approval-for-neo-catechumenal.html

Enoch said...

Is it possible that by stating what is allowed and what is not allowed in the NCW litugy, the CDF can then take action if the NCW's veer away from what has been authorized? Could it be that it would be more difficult to take action in the future if official guidelines had not been put in place?

That being said, it could be difficult for the CDF to take action in places like China, where the NCW's plan to expand thier influence.

Teresa Stanfill Benns said...

It is such a sad period for the church. We need true guidance. We have been fooled all these years.

By their fruits you shall know them!

Tradical said...

"They're ok but the SSPX isn't? Wow!"

It's all about the Council. If you call yourself a fruit of V2, and go with the Novus Ordo, all is good.

Truly, the Second Vatican Council is the defining event of the 20th century.

Confusius said...

These "new movements" have a way of unravelling. Look at the Legionaries, the Bethlehem and Beatitudes communities and others- all have been brought low by scandals with their founders. It's only a matter of time before the hubris of the Neo-Cats brings them crashing down...the devil only seems able to conceal himself for a limited time, and then all is revealed

Barbara said...

"I must warn all of you to take seriously what H. Ortiz says."

Sorry Francisco B. I could never take seriously what Helenio Ortiz or his ilk said...

Barbara

PEH said...

The Way and the Anglicans get a rite that conforms to their conscience. The independent traditional groups, including the FSSPX, get a request to sign a doctrinal imperative that says, in effect, that they must accept the NO and Vat II and promise not not criticize the modernists. The Mass of Resurrection and the Requiem Mass are given equal status when we know they are not equal in their intent. Communion in the hand and communion on the tongue are given equal status and we know that they are not in terms of creating the possibility of sacrilege. The sacraments are not interpreted in the same way, especially Extreme Unction. So, in the language of the current time we must ask: "What's up with that?"

By the way, I've been absent lately due to a period of hospitalization and am now now in a rehab type facility. May I ask, then, that you remember me in your prayers. Thanks.

Paul

M. A. said...

"..am now now in a rehab type facility. May I ask, then, that you remember me in your prayers."
_________________
I assure you of mine, Paul.

Glad to know you have access to Rorate!

God bless and a speedy recovery!

John McFarland said...

Francisco B.'s remarks are both interesting and plausible.

Kiko and Carmen are only slightly less arrogant than Sr. Ortiz.

They think they've won, and Sr. Ortiz is engaging in the moral equivalent of the end zone gyrations of American football pass catchers.

And indeed, by their lights, they have won. They can do pretty much anything they want, as long as the local ordinary doesn't run them out of his diocese; and that's just one diocese. Furthermore, since those ordinaries are, with rare exceptions, first and foremost political animals, they will not do that unless the NCW generates local opposition that the bishop concludes must be placated.

As for those who make invidious comparisons between the treatment of the NCW and the SSPX: Rome is perfectly willing to accept the SSPX, if it will accept Vatican II. That acceptance can be pure babble, or pure sophistry, or some combination of the two. It can be in transparent bad faith. As long as Bishop Fellay could avoid laughing in the Holy Father's face as he made his acceptance, Rome would not care. If Rome will accept Kiko and Carmen, it will accept anything.

Delphina said...

"Most of all, I dislike the tambourines of the Novus Ordo."

How about the bongos? I hear the bongos make a nice touch at a funeral "liturgy".

LeonG said...

Mike B said
"Actually I sensed a strong presence of the Holy Spirit."

Interesting - this is what every so-called Charismatic claims when they attend their emotionally oriented meetings. Protestant Pentecostals never fail to summon up the Third person of The Blessed Trinity either.
Please can we be a little more objective then this.

The NCW is not Roman Catholic & neither, objectively speaking is its liturgy. Study it empiracally - this is a sect which threatens the current modernist structures with its aggressive and rapidly growing movement. With successive liberal papacies it has been allowed to get out of hand even where bishops have correctly tried to put it in its place. In normal times it would never have been allowed breathing space but these are not normal times.

GQ Rep said...

I think this is slowly going to evolve into another Protestant "church" along with everything that entails.

The Pope and the Vatican are in for a huge, unpleaseant surprise from these people.

A condemnation of this group by the Vatican will come in the next, more hardline and braver pontificate.

Mike B. said...

JohnFisher and LeonG disparage the sensing of the Holy Spirit. Having experienced this phenomena on many occasions at Extraordinary Rite liturgies, some Novus Ordo and devotionals, it is a reality for me.

If one enters a Church without a tabernacle one might sense the lack of God's presence. When God's presence is strong it is palpable to the human spirit. I hope that helps.

The 'Neocatechumenal Vespers' service I attended at my parish church was a holy expression of love of God; very Catholic, accompanied by excellent choral with organ.

St Mary Our Lady of Grace
St Petersburg Fl

Delphina said...

MikeB

Why am I not surprised?

A Mom said...

"...Rome is perfectly willing to accept the SSPX, if it will accept Vatican II. That acceptance can be pure babble, or pure sophistry, or some combination of the two. It can be in transparent bad faith."

Unless, of course, the SSPX prefer that their yes mean yes and their no mean no.

Paul - prayers for you. Glad you're ok.

Enoch said...

Mike B,

I appreciate the charitable manner in which you express yourself. However, I'd like to say that we do not attend Mass so that we can experience phenomena. Rather, we are there to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. And we are there to partake in Holy Communion - the Body and Blood of our Lord. We don't have to have an extraordinary experience to know that Our Lord is present and with us. The Church tells us this truth, and we believe it, even without experiencing the phenomena of which you speak. There are individuals who do legitimately experience phenomena without seeking after it, but most of us do not. Yet we believe with all our heart that He is present. We know He is present.

John McFarland said...

Dear GQ Rep,

Evolve into a Protestant "church"?

As IRISH has in effect noted, they are a Protestant "church."

But they are also a member in good canonical standing of the Catholic Church, having just been sent on about their itinerary by the Holy Father.

Barbara said...

Dear PEH.
Your comments are always good.

I wondered where you were.

God bless for a speedy recovery.

Barbara said...

Nice cheerful post Mr. McFarland.
This especially touched me deeply:

"As long as Bishop Fellay could avoid laughing in the Holy Father's face as he made his acceptance, Rome would not care. If Rome will accept Kiko and Carmen, it will accept anything."

What an interesting and plausible vision of the Church you have...



Barbara

Barbara said...

Enoch,

What a great comment Enoch!

Barbara

LeonG said...

Mike B

There is a vast difference between the Presence of The Holy Ghost and a "personal experience" of an event which is mostly little more than a complex of emotions which can be difficult to describe. The Holy Ghost cannot be experienced in an emotional setting or atmosphere: this is mere reductionist sentimentalism. Accepted as it exists it can be compelling and immensely gratifying but it is not to be confused with The Holy Ghost.

Bearing in mind what a sociological phenomenon alternative religious experiences are in contemporary society, it is all to easy to pretend that heightened personal senses are a divine manuifestation. We have had to tolerate a plethora of claims to such occurrences. They are almost all of them an environmentally-oriented emotional response

In the NCW, it is categorically impossible to have such an experience other than the emotional. This is a sect which has insinuated itself into a declining Novus Ordo with which there is ever-mounting disenchantment and against which this movement has juxtaposed itself.

If Roman Catholics attended Holy Mass as our pre-conciliar papal fathers have insisted we ought to, then most of these irrational behaviours would never have happened. Furthemore, the NCW and similar vogue trends would never have appeared. They are a response to systematic disobedience to Roman Catholic liturgical and pastoral norms, values and mores. This is what transpires when the pastors nefglect their flock - the penfold is opened and the sheep scatter.

Teresa Stanfill Benns said...

For those interested, I had published and co-authored a book dealing with the current crisis. The books can be sent to you, the only expense being postage.

Enoch said...

LeonG said:

"If Roman Catholics attended Holy Mass as our pre-conciliar papal fathers have insisted we ought to, then most of these irrational behaviors would never have happened."

You may be right. But then why was it that all-too-many Catholic clergy and bishops were happy to get rid of the Old Mass, statues, altar rails, etc., after the Council? Many of them wanted change, and they believed that it would be a good thing. We can see now that it wasn't.

I have to wonder if it's possible that God allowed Old Mass to be taken away so as to protect it from deformation by those who want to tinker with the liturgy. For instance, there are those who currently want to put charismatic renewal nonsense into the Latin Mass in their diocese. I find this appalling and frightening, but thank goodness for the Ecclesia Dei groups, especially the FSSP, who will not allow anything to infect our beloved TLM.

Our Latin Mass was kept safe from contagion, while the experiments in liturgy were allowed to happen. Our Lord has allowed these experiments in His Church, and though they bother me greatly, I think that when Catholics are ready for a more grown-up version of the Catholic faith, as opposed to the teenage version, they will look to the Latin Mass.

Mike B. said...

LeonG, Barbara and John Fisher,

For your edification, one may consider that Mother Teresa [post a very strong sense of presence] lost that sense of connection for life, which did not effect her following God's Will. It was considered a very painful lifelong condition for her.

I know a priest who states he never senses God's presence, but he too lives it. It is very possible God gives many of us that gift because our weakness needs that support.

That said, I do believe that that my sense of 'palpable' presence of the Holy Spirit at that 'Neocatecumenal Vespers' was a positive indication of something good happening.

St Petersburg Fl.

New Catholic said...

Dear Mr. B,

I have no clue about what you do feel or not - but you can surely see, I hope, that this "sensing" cannot in any way be used as proof for or against the Catholicity or truth of anything, right?

Because, from the Sikhs in Amritsar to the Hindus in the Ganges to the Buddhists in Tibet to the Muslims in Mecca, many people "sense" many moving things in religious experiences...

NC

LeonG said...

Indeed Enoch.

God's ways are not our ways - He could see how the inner disposition for Holy Mass had become jaded and without due reverence. I could not agree more wholeheartedly with Hildebrand's main criticism of clerical attitudes in the twentieth century. Pope St Pius X was a prophet-type in condemning without stint the liberal modernism rampant in parts of the church and the lack of proper interior preparedness by others for Holy Mass.

Mike B

Your insistence that setting and environement coupled with atmospheres is equal to experience of The Holy Ghost remains too personal a one to be convincing. NCW vespers, liturgy, catechesis and so on are all sectarian activities of a rebellious movement incapable of such a divine manifestation. Had I not researched this sect empirically I would never have understood how radically non-Catholic it is. They even have the effrontery to criticise the Latin Mass of All Times as an inappropriate liturgical rite. This is the critical barb of the sectarian divide. They might just as well be protestants. It would amount to the same phenomenon. They deny, among other factors, the all-important sacrificial element in The Holy Mass. This is tantamount to protestantism.
My advice to you is to keep well away from this disorientated movement and remain completely faithful to Sacred Tradition.
The NCW is another liberal modernist adjunct with traditional veneer.

Mike B. said...

Enoch, et al,
I must add that Pentecost could be described as an 'emotional' experience for those outside of the reality. I appreciate your life inside the Catholic faith, but you may go too far from recognizing the day to day life of our roots in first century Christianity.
Actually, for me, in desperation, I had to pursue my sense of conscience contact with God's Will to question my tendency to 'rationalize' or to twist my will into God's Will. Knowing God's Will is often not possible but there are fruits to prayer and meditation.

This may have laid me open to sensing the Holy Spirit when I am spiritually fit enough to 'see'. However this does not arrive at the landing of a religious or spiritual experience. Yet it would be inaccurate to think of it as an 'emotional weee!' The Apostles would be offended.

St Petersburg Fl

Mike B. said...

Yes, New Catholic,

Most certainly the 'sensing' of the presence of the Holy Spirit is a personal thing only, and does not speak to the authenticity of liturgy. I regret the point I originally made may have been mis-communicated, or misunderstood.

Actually, I brought it up because in reading the Pope's approval of the Neocatechumenal Way, it did not approve their current abuses of the Mass. However it did approve their Vespers liturgy. In addition, Diocesan bishops inherently would monitor their services to make sure it follows the current GIRM.

The particular Vespers liturgy I witnessed DID NOT present itself as a distortion of current liturgical practice according to the GIRM. Again, the choral and organ were excellent and the Vespers liturgy was authentic under the direction of our Parish priests.

I am simply trying to add some balance inside a tendency to possibly overstate the danger.

Michael F Brennan
St Petersburg Fl

Mike B. said...

Enoch, et al,
I must add that Pentecost could be described as an 'emotional' experience for those outside of the reality. I appreciate your life inside the Catholic faith, but you may go too far from recognizing the day to day life of our roots in first century Christianity.
Actually, for me, in desperation, I had to pursue my sense of conscience contact with God's Will to question my tendency to 'rationalize' or to twist my will into God's Will. Knowing God's Will is often not possible but there are fruits to prayer and meditation.

This may have laid me open to sensing the Holy Spirit when I am spiritually fit enough to 'see'. However this does not arrive at the landing of a religious or spiritual experience. Yet it would be inaccurate to think of it as an 'emotional weee!' The Apostles would be offended.

St Petersburg Fl

A Loyal Reader said...

The N.O. needs more cow-bell!

Enoch said...

Mike B. wrote:

"The Apostles would be offended."

Would they? The Holy Ghost came upon the Apostles in the upper room for the specific purpose of enabling them to preach the faith to non-believers in an accurate manner that did not contradict what our Lord preached when He was still with them. And all of the Apostles, except for St. John, gave their lives for preaching the truth.

This is not what the present day pentacostal charismatics do today. They cannot relate to what the Apostles actually did, because they are too busy seeking after proof and consolations (speaking in tongues and prophesying) so that they can know that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost atually exists. But traditionalists know He exists. And what the pentacostal charismatics think that they are connecting to is the Holy Ghost, but it may not be the Holy Ghost...it may be something else, or just their imagination. That's the problem with personal experiences - they are subjective. A good confessor can help to sort out what they really mean, but Catholic should not be seeking out the extraordinary gifts such as tongues and prophesying. We are instead to cooperate with the ordinary graces given by the Holy Ghost for our sanctification.

Mike B. said...

Yes Enoch, it is subjective, and my sense of the Holy Spirit's presence is subjective.

Veritas said...

TIA just posted a new article on the NCW:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m028rpNeocats.html