Rorate Caeli

Neocatechumenal Rite approved?
Let us call it the New Liturgical Way

Pope Benedict XVI, in his meeting this morning with thousands of members of the Neocatechumenal Way, made public the decree of approval of the liturgical particularities of that group:
A moment ago, the Decree was read with the approval of the celebrations present in the "Catechetical Directory of the Neocatechumenal Way", which are not strictly liturgical, but are part of the itinerary of growth in the faith. It is another element that shows to you how the Church follows you with attention in a pacient discernment, that she understands your richness, but also takes care for communion and harmony in the whole Corpus Ecclesiae.

The Pope then made references to his views on the liturgy as part of the life of the Church:

The celebration in the small communities, regulated by the Liturgical Books, that are to be followed faithfully, and with the specificities approved in the Statutes of the Way, has the goal of helping those who walk on the neocatechumenal itinerary realize the grace of being inserted in the salvific mystery of Christ, who makes possible a Christian testimony capable of also assuming signs of radicalness.

 A "Third Form" of the Roman Rite?



[Update 1400 GMT] The Vatican Information Service [VIS] has the main text of the approval decree:
APPROVAL FOR CELEBRATIONS OF NEO-CATECHUMENAL WAY

VATICAN CITY, 20 JAN 2012 (VIS) - The Pontifical Council for the Laity today published a decree approving the celebrations contained in the Catechetical Directory of the Neo-Catechumenal Way. The decree is dated 8 January, Feast of the Baptism of the Lord, and bears the signatures of Cardinal Stanislaw Rylko and Bishop Josef Clemens, respectively president and secretary of the council.

The text published today reads: "By a decree of 11 May 2008 the Pontifical Council for the Laity gave definitive approval to the Statutes of the Neo-Catechumenal Way. Subsequently, following due consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, by a decree of 26 December 2010, the council gave approval to the publication of the Catechetical Directory as a valid and binding instrument for the catechesis of the Neo-Catechumenal Way.

"Now, pursuant to articles 131 and 133 paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Apostolic Constitution 'Pastor Bonus' on the Roman Curia, the Pontifical Council forthe Laity, having received the 'nulla osta' of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, grants approval to those celebrations contained in the Catechetical Directory of the Neo-Catechumenal Way which are not, by their nature, already regulated by the liturgical books of the Church".


Editorial Note [1500 GMT]: Some have wished to say that it is not exactly an approval, that it is not an actual liturgical rite, that only the several "phases" or "steps" of the "Way" itself have been approved - which is true, even though the Holy Father himself also mentions the "specificities" of the liturgical rites when in "small groups", with papal praise and confirmation of the full 2008 approval of the liturgical practices foreseen in the Statutes. Fine, let us not call it a new liturgical rite, then - but only a "New Liturgical Way"...

What we think, what we consider right, even what is in mere speeches... all this is irrelevant: as in all post-Conciliar radical experiments, they merely wanted a seal of approval, even if the approval is not, in law, complete and wide; and, with this seal of approval, first in 2008, now supremely approved in all details in 2012, everything is possible for the Way. The Neocatechumenal Way is at last out of the box; who will put them back inside?

169 comments:

Steve said...

really?

LL-J said...

Though the Pope is suppose to be above political designation, Pope Benedict XVI seems to be nothing more than a pluralist with a utopian mindset akin to the anathemas issued out against syncretism and pluralism. To concilliate and accommodate everyone is to dilute the timeless doctrine of faith to mere historicism and then mutability. Dangerous times ahead !

Jacob said...

I had high hopes back in the day when the Holy Father was elected that there would be a tsunami to clear out the dreck in the curia given how long he had been prefect of the CDF. I should have realized when he kept Sodano around for another year that it was business as usual.

The Holy Father has gotten in a few things, but it seems like for every SP motu proprio, there are three or four Neocat liturgy approvals...

Pray.

Torkay said...

Let me make sure I've got this straight: the liturgical peculiarities (my word not RC's -and a kind word at that) of this un-Catholic group are "not strictly liturgical"??

Have we now achieved Orwellian newspeak in the Vatican?

Anonymous said...

I used to consider myself a traditional Catholic under Benedict XVI but wanted to see a real test i.e. that of the Neo-Cats. Having suffered endlessly because me and my wife were having difficulties to bear children, I always considered the Neo-Cats as nothing more than a sect.

Today, I start my own Way - away from the Novus Ordo - Neo-Cat system. I have been let down yet again.

Rorate Coeli - to retain some credibility - should leave the Novus Ordo sect.

The Tridentine Mass belongs to Catholics not to the crypts of the Novus Ordo Neo-Cats.

Jose'

Pablo the Mexican said...

Carmen Hernandez appeared with an ADIDAS (all day I dream about sex) shirt on when she and saint Kiko the great.

When will we see vestments with this logo on them?

*

MJ said...

I'd like to be able to say I'm shocked, but this was actually pretty predictable. The movement is probably to massive to harness, and sometimes the most effective way to deal potential abuses on such a massive scale is to simply give them approval. The Holy Father is in a position to know better than us what decision was best for the Church and what sacrifices had to be made. But it's still incredibly sad to see that he had to sacrifice the health of the liturgy to save souls.

Right now, I think it's safe to say the future of the Roman liturgy, or western spirituality for that matter, looks very bleak. While Benedict's writings spoke of authentic liturgical reform, legislation like this suggests that the Vatican is more concerned with incusiveness than tradition. And when victories like Summorum pontificum are placed alongside decrees like this, it changes the whole picture.

Miles Dei said...

Not a new rite. You obtain light on this by the term "sacramental". Their celebrations in the directorio are sacramentals in a particular form for the adult iniciation on faith (traditio, shema and others in the directory). Yes, they are just sacramentals on their way.

For the liturgy they are regulated by the Roman rite, just as their statutes in art.13 show.

Pablo the Mexican said...

It would be a simple matter for the FSSP to perform this 'Novelty'.

All those that meet together against God and His Christ need to do is order them to do it; after all, they are 'in communion with Rome' and 'Obedient'.

You will never see this outrage in a Traditional Community.

They are not 'In Communion' with this foolishness.

It is a good thing the Superiors of the SSPX have rejected Rome's proposals.

This Truth will not make your blog, but at least you will read these words.

*

George said...

So much for the reform of the reform.
As they say, actions speak louder than words. So, for all of Ratzinger's books on liturgy than gave us hope--we might as well throw them out. They're worthless.

Francesco Colafemmina said...

The trick is that the approval is for the "celebrations" of the NW, contained in the Catechetical Directorium. Now, how is possible that the Holy See approves "celebrations" contained and explained in a book that is not of public domain? In a book of catechesis that is just a mystery made of 12 volumes!

Someone may say: "no, the Pope didn't approve the neocat rite". Infact there's no neocat rite, I mean in the sense of a neocat book of rites... But let's call all the "embellishment" and the distorsion of the NO made by the NW merely as "celebrations" inside a canonical liturgy and the trick is done!

Cardinal Canizares - the small Ratzinger (very small indeed) - approved the "celebrations" of Eucharist, penitence and word. In this way he approved the complex system of rules dominating NW liturgies...

The Pope was then invited just to give a touch of charme to the overall celebration of Kiko and Carmen. He used very strong words to riaffirm that there is only one Body of Christ... But we know that with the NW words have no strength!

Fritz said...

Well, that cuts it.

I am not Spartacus said...

Indefensible abomination that ought create dread in the heart of every Traditionalist for this action signals that because this bull shit is baptised as acceptable then the Immemorial Mass will soon be subjected to the arrows of "reform" and, once repeatedly pierced by an updating (in full continuity with blah blah blah) The Immemorial Mass will be, like Saint Sebastian was, left for dead.

But, like Saint Sebastian, it wil not be dead .

The one good to be derived from this will be the wry amusement one can enjoy reading the conservatives defend this action

Augustinus said...

"The movement is probably to massive to harness, and sometimes the most effective way to deal potential abuses on such a massive scale is to simply give them approval."

Ah, like communion in the hand? Yeah... its approval by Paul VI did much to contain it and prevent it from spreading. So silly of me not to have realized that earlier.

M. A. said...

We were forewarned.

In a hypothetical situation, given only two options - a neo-Cat Mass or a Mass by an SSPX priest, those blindly obedient would choose.....

Talk about diabolical disorientation!

P.K.T.P. said...

Perhaps I'm misreading things but, as I read the decree, the Pope seems to be restricting the Neocatatonical rites when they violate the norms of approved Missals.

In regard to the neo-catatonics' way of receiving Holy Communion, it might be argued that the communication of the people is not part of the Mass and is therefore governed by the Rituale--although I'm not sure that this is the case in NewMass. In other words, it may be that they are still allowed to received in the seated position, and so forth.

On the whole, however, the Pope seems to close by saying that, where there is a conflict between the rubrics of the Missal and the neo-catatonical regulations, the former must take precedence.

Of course, the general effect of this action will be to endorse this unCatholic cult.

P.K.T.P.

CAP said...

When Cardinal Canizares was made Prefect of the CDW, there was a lot of talk about how so much more traditional he is than Cardinal Arinze. Cardinal Canizares then proceeded to offer a few -- a very few -- Pontifical Masses according to the 1962 Missal, and gave a few interviews where he said a few harmless, non-binding things guaranteed to set Traditionalist and Neo-Conservative hearts aflutter.

This event should open our eyes about where he really stands.

In contrast, Arinze -- despite his notable lack of enthusiasm for the Traditional Roman Rite -- ridiculed liturgical dance, frequently combated and denounced liturgical abuses in unmistakable terms, published "Redemptoris Sacramentum" containing a detailed list of liturgical abuses to be eradicated, and, most of all, tried to put an end to the liturgical abuses of the Neo Catechumenal Way

Now tell me who is really more friendly to Tradition.

beng said...

Not just the smoke, but Satan himself and the fire of hell hath entered the Church.

I'm officially in despair.

New Catholic said...

Miles, dear reader: we deal with end results here, not merely with abstract levels of liturgical law. It is, in practice, a new rite for several of the sacraments - now, we may say that, in law, it is one thing, mere twitches to the novus ordo, but this will not prevent it from being, in the application of the law, a new rite.

In the end, it does not matter: the novus ordo is all things to all men. And with this approval, the Ritus Canizarensis has actually more support in the letter of the law than all "Benedictine arrangements" put together; the NeoCat Rite is, in law, even if not "called" a rite, in a more certain situation than those pseudo-TLM Novus Ordo Masses celebrated in a handful of spots throughout the world.

NC

M. A. said...

"The movement is probably to massive to harness, and sometimes the most effective way to deal potential abuses on such a massive scale is to simply give them approval."
_________________

That kind of thinking really bothers me, too. I can't figure them out.

Some people are too complex for my simple mind.

P.K.T.P. said...

Dear CAP:

Have you forgotten the incident in which, before German bishops, Cardinal Arinze, in comparing NewMass and TrueMass, held the New Missal over his head and exclaimed, "This is my baby", or words to that effect? And he never offered the T.L.M. to my recollection.

I'd say that both men are far from traditional in particular ways.

P.K.T.P.

New Catholic said...

P.K.T.P.: yes, the end-result is this mess, it does not matter if there are "recommendations" in one way or another, what really matters is that, as it happened with communion in the hand (as Augustinus recalls), or "Extraordinary Ministers", or "Altar girls", what will be remembered is the general approval. Who will actually verify if number X or Y of the GIRM, including for Holy Communion, is being observed here or there?...

Cruise the Groove. said...

If the Neocats are approved and the SSPX are not I have grown even further confused, and I did not think that was possible.

Augustinus said...

As usual, the majority of 'conservative' Catholic blogs will either rush to defend this decision, or ignore it and continue to pretend that everything the current Pope does is for the "brick-by-brick" restoration of Tradition.

Helenio Ortiz said...

After Jesus Christ, no one is greater than Kiko Arguello. He was sent to save the Church - and HE DID!

The Neocatechumenal Way at the Vatican will ensure that you so-called Latin Lovers will soon go to where you belong - a footnote in the history of the Church.

The Neocatechumenal Way at the Vatican will ensure that very soon Pope Benedict XVI will celebrate liturgy according to Our Rite - and it's not a Roman Rite but a Universal Ecumenical Rite for the selected ones.

I honestly hope that you Latin Lovers will join us before it is too late.

Remember that Blessed John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have already celebrated our Rite. But your Rite has been concealed and will not re-surface. No Pope will repeat past mistakes.

I doubt whether you Latin Lovers will show this comment. In any case, WE WON!!!

P.K.T.P. said...

Dear CAP:

Let's separate out the issues here in regard to the two cardinals. I agree with you that Canizares is not traditional, as he clearly endorses this unCatholic coven of false archæologists. Arinze never went remotely that far.

But the question of which of them is more hostile to the T.L.M. is a separate matter. To my recollection, Arinze showed himself to be hostile to the T.L.M. and did not offer it. In contrast, Canizares has offered it and has been friendly to Latin Mass traditionalists.

Are these positions of Canizares inconsistent? Perhaps they are, but that would be nothing new in a post-conciliar prelate, eh?

P.K.T.P.

New Catholic said...

I don't know if "Helenio Ortiz" is being true or if he is kidding - that is the Kiko attitude, anyway...

P.K.T.P. said...

The next project for this blog should be a petition to ask the Holy Father to change not one single word or punctuation mark in the T.L.M. for the next fifty years. Now is the time for us to show our displeasure regarding any planned intrusion of new prefaces from the Mess of Bugnini the Barbarian into the ancient liturgy of the Church. Now is the time to resist any change to our calendar, so that we don't get a 'John Paul the Great' day or a Feast of the Divine Mercy thrust upon us.

In the aftermath of a revolution, what is needed is a period of stasis. Fifty years more will give the next generation ample time to reflect on just how great the great leaders of NewChurch have been. Some of them might collect new tags over time. I don't want to wake up one morning and find Escriva on my calendar, and I would never want to attend a Mass in his honour, for example.

Let's have a petion to resist any new 2012 Missal of the T.L.M. 23rd June of this year is the fiftieth anniversary of the publication of the 1962 Missal in Latin. I can just feel this Pope planning its replacement for that golden jubilee. Thanks but no thanks.

P.K.T.P.

Jon said...

So, we have wiggle room.

From the text as published:

"Now, pursuant to articles 131 and 133 paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Apostolic Constitution 'Pastor Bonus' on the Roman Curia, the Pontifical Council for the Laity, having received the 'nulla osta' of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, grants approval to those celebrations contained in the Catechetical Directory of the Neo-Catechumenal Way which ARE NOT, BY THEIR NATURE, ALREADY REGULATED BY THE LITURGICAL BOOKS OF THE CHURCH."

All well and good. In fact, it's even caused me to change my formerly entrenched position, and adopt a more open mind.

In fact, somebody call Georg. He needs to clear off that extra bed and make room for the cats.

New Catholic said...

El Eremita, this was a NEW decree of approval, of all the specificities included in all the volumes of the approved books of the way for all sacraments thereby mentioned.

NC

Helenio Ortiz said...

New Catholic

I am very serious. And we are consistent not like you Latin Lovers! After all why do you use the pseudonym "New" when you're a bunch of hopeless people licking something that belongs to the dustbin of history.

We follow Kiko and Carmen - the true light that is guiding the Holy Father to take the right decisions. We are the concrete fruit of the Vatican Council II.

WE WON!!!

MJ said...

The NC Way is a larger movement than traditionalism. The Wikipedia article says there were 100,000 youth from the NC Way at the Cologne World Youth Day in 2005. That's 10% of attendees.

If Juventutem could draw those numbers, then I expect the Vatican would deal with traditionalists differently. But as it stands, traditionalism just isn't a very large movement in the Church and isn't showing the same rapid growth as the NC Way. We just can't expect the same treatment.

A Loyal Reader said...

Who ARE all those guys??? Where do they come from??? What are they doing??? Shouldn't they be doing something Catholic???? Let's just recognize Ben XVI for what he really is, and not what we would like him to be. He is, by his own admission, http://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-176.html the same man he was when he was with the Rhine team at V-II. God help him, and us, but especially him.

P.K.T.P. said...

This comment by Helenio Ortiz must be a joke. As for popes doing the Kiko Krazy Rite, I havent' seen that. But I'm sure that the Kiko Rite is offered in Hell, which is where it came from.

P.K.T.P.

tjpf said...

I am sick to my stomach...

JMJ Ora Pro Nobis said...

@Helenio Ortiz

I will pray for you, but It's a little early to celebrate, let us see who will celebrate on the day of judgement? Who will be at the left and at the right? Let us both pray and hope that we are at the right hand of Our Blessed Lord and not the left.

I have to say I have come to realised that Pope Benedict XVI is playing politics, he will not restore the Church and nor will the SSPX reconcile with him. How can the SSPX be banned when a cult with sacrilegious practices is approved? If anyone needed anymore evidence that the SSPX is right and Rome is wrong here it is.

I note however that the news reports have the typical Vatican 2 double speak 'grants approval to those celebrations contained in the Catechetical Directory of the Neo-Catechumenal Way which are not, by their nature, already regulated by the liturgical books of the Church'

What is that supposed to mean?

New Catholic said...

Jon,

"We have some wiggle room".

"We", who?... Are you part of the liturgical police?... THEY have the greatest wiggle room in the world and, as the post-conciliar indults for abuses show, one approval is enough to start things that can never again be turned back.

NC

New Catholic said...

JMJ,

It will mean whatever the Way will want it to mean.

NC

Ben Vallejo said...

The Extraordinary Form of the Ordinary Form?

Prof. of Theo said...

Once again there is not a single theological objection to this rite. Can someone please take the time to actually cite from the rite itself when they offer a criticism. Otherwise your comments only reveal that you are theologically ignorant.

- A professor of Theology.

Helenio Ortiz said...

To all those who have the stomach to accuse me of lying (we Neo-Catechumenals never lie like you Latin Lovers) check this link:

http://www.camminoneocatecumenale.it/new/default.asp?lang=en&page=cordes

On the right hand side you see a photo of Blessed John Paul II celebrating our Rite - not yours.

WE WON. GO TO HELL TRAITORS OF THE WAY. Or else join the sects like templars, conclavists, sedevacancies, sspx etc. etc. ad nauseam :P

T9 said...

same old story in the Church: just do whatever the **** you want long enough and not only will everyone safely look the other way - you might even be lucky enough to get it legitimized!

eg. communion in the hand, altar girls, and now the kiko rite.

Keep buying those condoms people, because one day you'll maneuver a change in that area as well!

Jon said...

NC,

Jon,

"We have some wiggle room".

"We", who?... Are you part of the liturgical police?...

NC

That was sarcasm, my friend. By "wiggle room" I meant the ludicrous V II doublespeak.

I guess it's not a day for irony.

Anonymous said...

If Helenio Ortiz's comments are at all reflective of a number of NCWers, then this movement is straight from the pit of Hell: "We follow Kiko and Carmen - the true light that is guiding the Holy Father to take the right decisions."

"Kiko and Carmen" guide the Vicar of Christ to make right decisions?! Are you drinking antifreeze???

Garrett

Ferraiuolo said...

The Kiko Rite "Subsists in the Roman rite" hahahaha

Father Anthony Cekada said...

"with the specificities approved in the Statutes of the Way,"

Can anyone describe exactly what these are?

Edward said...

The Pope is a Hegelian. He gives the right something , then the Left something and hopes the two synthesize down the road.

Miles Dei said...

It is, in practice, a new rite for several of the sacraments - now, we may say that, in law, it is one thing, mere twitches to the novus ordo, but this will not prevent it from being, in the application of the law, a new rite.
----------------------------

Read what the Pope has said them. The Pope has say exactly what they must do: follow art.13 and liturgy of Church in the sacraments. It is an "ear pull". The directory is just a group of celebrations just as in the Opus Dei are "the circles" and "retires" or "convivencias" (i not know the word used in english). In law and in practice is not other rite. If they try to do so, then they can be denounced to Holy See.

Enoch said...

If the comment by Helenio Ortiz at 14:49 is real, I would say that if this is the typical attitude of NeoCats, then it won't last long in the Church. It seems to be based on emotionalism, similar to charismaticism. Speaking of charismaticism, at least the pope has not given credence to thier nutty liturgies, even though they are allowed to use their litugies in most of the diocese here in the U.S.

These new faddish liturgies will have to play out their supposed usefulness for those in the Church who are not ready for the hard task of submitting themselves to proper Catholic teaching. Though I am saddened that the Pope has approved this NeoCat business, I think he knew what he was doing. Someone mentioned the numbers of NeoCats as being a factor, which I think is relevant, too.

I would like to think that traditional Catholics are held to a higher standard than the NeoCats and charismatics. The Latin Mass has withstood the test of time, so surely if God has found it pleasing (as I think He does)then it will ultimately prevail, but it will take time. I think that we should try to bear, with patience, these nutty factions that are allowed to co-exist in the Church. Obviously God is allowing them, for reasons that we can't really fathom.

Anabel said...

In the late 90s, Father Malachi Martin wrote that Our Lord was leveling His Chruch.

Nothing else can explain this or indeed the last 50 years.

El Eremita said...

New Catholic,

The article from the V.I.S. says clearly that this new decree "grants approval to those celebrations contained in the Catechetical Directory of the Neo-Catechumenal Way which are not, by their nature, already regulated by the liturgical books of the Church"

This "Catechetical Directory" does not contain particularities for the celebration of any Sacrament, only non-liturgical celebrations performed when the NeoCats start a new stage of their "way". The celebration of the Sacraments is already regulated by liturgical books, therefore, it is outside of the scope of this decree of approval.

The only thing close to a liturgical action there is a penitential celebration (I know because they do it in my parish: many penitents but individual confession and absolution) but the Sacrament of Penance itself must celebrated according to the standard rubrics.

Miles Dei said...

I herad the read of the decree and it says it aproved "the celebrations contained in the directiry by his nature can not be ruled by liturgy"

So it is clearly aprobation of no liturgical items.

The mess is because:

A) They mantained in secrecy the directory (the same was with the Opus Dei, but them not pretended to be a new rite)

B)This no liturgical items are constructed over and around the catholic iniciation of adults which is yet ruled by books.

C)The bad intelectual formation of the people of the way that continue merging things and act if it doesn`t matter.

M. A. said...

Honorio says: "After Jesus Christ, no one is greater than Kiko Arguello. He was sent to save the Church - and HE DID!"
________________________________

Step aside Blessed Mother, all you angels and saints, move over. Hellonio despises you.

Wow! The "we have won" comes right the pit of Hell. It was the cry from Satan when he saw Christ hanging on the cross.

Cunjo said...

@P.K.T.P.
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2011/09/francis-cardinal-arinze-offers-usus.html


And also i think that Ortiz bloke is not joking..infact..there is a certain truth in his comments...NW is a fruit of V2

JAK said...

I think many of us, myself included, created Pope Benedict XVI in the image of what we desired. He has never offered the traditional Latin Mass since becoming Pope. That should have been enough of a statement. His approval of the neo-cat "rite" is just the latest in a long line of temporizing actions that we (I)really should have expected.

In an earlier thread, "I am not Spartacus" quoted Cardinal Ratzinger in the Ratzinger Report: Page 124 "Far from regarding this "Indult" on the lines of a "restoration," he saw it in the context of that "legitimate pluralism" which has been so stressed by Vatican II and it's interpreters."

The present Pope is a Vatican II man through and through. He has never understood that there is no "legitimate pluralism" within a single Rite.

For me, at least, it has been a very hard lesson to learn.

Rick DeLano said...

"But it's still incredibly sad to see that he had to sacrifice the health of the liturgy to save souls."

Ah.

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it".

Sure.

Makes perfect sense, has worked so well in the past.

Well, I'm not whistling any more.

This is devastating.

To the catacombs.

The SSPX was right.

God help us.

New Catholic said...

OK, Miles! Good luck with your denunciation of "liturgical abuses" by The Way!

NC

Boris N said...

God bless our wonderful Pope! Benedict XVI's understanding of liturgy makes Benedict XIV look an amateur. Thank God for our Holy Father!

Anil Wang said...

Helenio Ortiz is obviously joking. From my understanding, no new Rite was actually created. What was created, however, was a non-liturgical Eucharistic celebration linked to a catechism. I do not believe the Vatican has said NCW fulfills one's Sunday obligations. My hope is that this is made clear enough and that the "celebration" is distinct enough from the liturgy that there is no confusion.

Texana said...

As a grateful parishioner of our FSSP parish I thank God for the True Mass of All Ages. After reading the comments of Helenio Ortiz, does any one feel the cold breath of that smoke Pope Paul VI observed?

Helenio Ortiz said...

When I said after Jesus, Kiko it was in the sense of men. Just like after Madonna comes Carmen. But male and female are created separately. When I say WE WON I mean the Church and the Way.

I am surprised how you know nothing about our attitude. We are meek and humble working in the vineyard. Instead you Latin Lovers quarrel between yourselves and create different sects. I notice earlier comment has been blocked.

Helenio Ortiz said...

Dear Anil Wang

the rite has been approved. It took years of petience by Kiko and Carmen, until some evil Cardinal retired and then the Way was paved. In the end, the Church won.

Whether you like it or not, Kiko and Carmen have always guided us and ensured us that our celebration has been approved. Today it has and what a great day it is!

To all those who think I am joking: as a Spainiard I find more pathetic the priest you admire so much (Apeles) who goes regularly for photos and modelling sessions with Spanish top models and actresses. Now that is a sick joke.

Miles Dei said...

Yes, New Catholic, yes. I understand that difference (they are a lot and with power in the bigger game inside palace). But is the same and identical difference that we found everyday and everywhere in Churh. At least we can clearly say, show and, most important, demonstrate them and others faithfuls the abuse and ask for justice for God and his Church. This is important.

Aphrahat said...

Yuck. What is Benedict smoking?

I thought he was trying to reform the reform. How can he do that when this neocat rite looks like the NO on steroids?

Kyrie eleison.

jasoncpetty said...

A "Third Form" of the Roman Rite?

Correct. Here's a name proposal. The one they do in public that non-Way members can see is the Ordi-scary Form; the one they do in private for Way-only is the Extraordi-scary Form.

LL-J said...

But number matter not for it is the quality of the faith but not the quantity that will mark out true Christians within the Holy Mother Church. I'm also willing to postulate that in the long run by an incredible stretch, Eastern Catholics might be one of our helping hands in dispelling these callous wolves (and specifically those who are not anti 'Roman' and sitting in major offices of their respective sui genris churches).

El Eremita said...

Regarding Helenio Ortiz's comments, I have one thing to say to you all: Do not feed the trolls.

OutsideObserver said...

What should not be forgotten is that, when the Statutes of the NCW were approved in 2008, Kiko publicly claimed that this proved that the 2005 letter of Cardinal Arinze had been superseded and no longer needed to be obeyed.

http://neocatecumenali.blogspot.com/2011/02/le-decisioni-del-santo-padre-una-vera.html

By further referencing the Statutes, this decree of "approval" only reinforces the notion that the NCW can continue as it has always done with the liturgy.

New Catholic said...

Quite right, OutsideObserver.

NC

Ecclesia Militans said...

The news are dire, the consequences are dire...
A schismatic and heretical sect has gotten a shameful aproval of their un-Christian rites by the Vatican authorities.

This pontificate can be compared to that of John Paul II. It started out as conservative too, but we all know what happened as more years passed.

This should be a wake-up call for all those that were lying to themselves that the Pope is a traditionalist, or even remotely traditional.

There is one good thing to come of all this, as someone mentioned. It is the realization for many that the SSPX is right.
We are in the worst crisis in the history of the Church. Many of the official Church have lost the faith. It has become a seeding ground for all kinds of heresies and perversions.
The only beacon of light that we have, the only safe harbor is Holy Tradition. We can no longer trust in most of the bishops to keep, teach, or protect the immaculate Faith. We can no longer trust in the Pope.
We must keep the Faith and wait patiently for the Lord to intervene.

The Lord uses things like this act to clarify the situation for those honestly confused sheep.
And what about the others, those that do not wish to see the truth? They will keep on living a lie and deluding themselves.

Mons. Lefebvre asked the Lord for signs several years before the consecrations, he asked the Lord to show him whether what he was doing was right. He asked the Lord to make it more clear if the people in Rome had left the Faith.
Out of many signs, the first Assisi meeting was the strongest proof.

Today, Bishop Fellay and the SSPX have gotten several very strong signs against signing any sort of "regularization", among which are the third Assisi meeting, the obstinate celebration of the Second Vatican Council - a refusal to accept its disastrous consequences, and finally approval of this protestant cult's rites.
Many souls are endangered by all of these things. Their pastors tell them all is well in the Church, while leading them astray.

Everything from the economy to the Faith is moving in a way that indicates the Great Chastisement is soon.

Lord, have mercy upon us!

"What then should a Catholic do if some part of the Church were to separate itself from communion with the universal Faith? What other choice can he make but to prefer to the gangrenous and corrupted member the whole of the body that is sound.
And if some new contagion were to try to poison no longer a small part of the Church, but all of the Church at the same time, then he will take the greatest care to attach himself to antiquity which, obviously, can no longer be seduced by any lying novelty."

(St. Vincent of Lerins, Confessor, 5th century, Commonitorium)

Enoch said...

Outside Observer, I was not able to find the link that you gave regarding the letter of Cardinal Arinze being superseded by the NCW's (showing that they are disobedient). Perhaps the pope was not aware of this. Could you provide a little more info on this? Thanks.

Tomasz said...

Neocats are neolutherans. Their catechesis are pure lutheranism.
Our Lady of Fatima - pray for us.

IRISH said...

I am absolutely shocked that the Holy Father could even consider meeting such a weird religious sect when their beliefs and liturgy have little in common with the true Catholic Mass.

For example the Neocats teach that;

in the theology of the Mass, there is no sacrifice of Jesus, no sacrifice of the Cross,

The Neocatechumenate's "Mass" contains serious omissions from the normal public liturgy of the Church. For example, on Kiko's orders the creed is not recited - one can make one's own guess at the reasoning behind this order. The Orate, Fratres is omitted on Kiko's orders, because it mentions sacrifice and Kiko denies the Mass is a sacrifice. The Agnus Dei has similarly been suppressed by him because of the reference to taking "away the sins of the world." Kiko denies that Christ takes away sin because of his belief that man is for ever and always ontologically "zero plus sin". The Lavobo (washing of hands) and Domine, non sum dignus.et sanabitur anima mea are both omitted on Kiko's orders. This is again because of Kiko's Lutheran theology. The Lavabo is a symbol of God purifying us, but God cannot purify us because in Luther's theology we are unredeemable. The Domine,i non sum dignus.et sanabitur anima mea is omitted again because this prayer suggests that Christ can sanctify us, when in Kiko's theology we are and always will be "zero plus sin.

"there is no Eucharist without the assembly (.). It is from the assembly that the Eucharist springs." This is also of course another reason why their leaders do not believe in priests. If it's the assembly that brings about the Real Presence and the host is merely a symbol.

The leaders of the Way believe that once the celebration is finished, Christ is no longer present. Consequently, they are opposed to the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament, genuflecting, Eucharistic adoration, daily communicating and tabernacles etc.

This is just a few of the serious errors and beliefs of this heretical organisation.

So much now for his Summorium Pontificum,
Can someone please tell me, if they believe the Mass is not a Sacrifice, then what is it?
Do we really want all this now when we are struggling to return to the Mass of all time the TLM.
Those bishops who have always been against the TLM will now be rubbing their hands in glee that they now have another third rite that just suits them fine.

Tom the Milkman said...

"Have we now achieved Orwellian newspeak in the Vatican?"

Of course, but that happened a long time ago. Once the novus ordo cult was installed in the Roman Church, churchspeak settled like a nasty grime over absolutely Everything, so nothing would shine, nothing could come through, everything would deaden - you know, like most 'springtimes'...

Now the Pope has set HIS approval (certainly not mine) on the heretical sect known as the Neocat Way. Isn't that just handsome!...

No one and no thing shall make me separate from the Roman Church, be it Neocat or Pope, officious nuns in sweatshirts, false teaching, frothy sermons about weekly tithing... The Roman authorities have tried that now for 45 years!

But a Catholic knows the Truth, and Truth does not change, though apparently all things under God's sun on this earth do change - just like that!

Let the Kikos and Carmens run and play in the barren fields of their deception. It has naught to do with our Faith.

J.G. Ratkaj said...

The reigning pontiff is even more committed to the council than his predecessor of blessed memory had been. It is absurd to expect him to be the one keep the postconciliar turmoils at bay. A polish tabloid in 2005 called him "pope of the council". The agony and defragmentation of the church is perpetuating before his very eyes. The last chance of restauration had been in 1978. Blessed John Paul II's strong personality had then all the intelectual, physical and psycholigical capacities needed, but he decided otherwise.

Oremus said...

Next will be the formal recognition of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal liturgies as the fourth Rite.

Miles Dei said...

What should not be forgotten is that, when the Statutes of the NCW were approved in 2008, Kiko publicly claimed that this proved that the 2005 letter of Cardinal Arinze had been superseded and no longer needed to be obeyed.
------------------------

But now the Pope himself has explained Kiko that it was not superseed but incorporated inside.

Read the speech of the Pope and the part dedicate to art. 13 of the statutes.

Anonymous said...

I felt physically ill when I read this. Truly, the Church is in chaos. I despair that the Holy Father has lost his way.

Anonymous said...

The NCW did not obtain the approval that they had been seeking. The mild approval for non-liturgical celebrations, readings and prayers and reflections that take place outside of the sacred liturgy, is actually an approval that is already extant for all Catholics. The non-liturgical devotions that take place outside of Mass and the other sacraments are not strictly regulated, and they never have been. The NCW may revel for a while in what they may claim, dishonestly, to be a blanket approval for any and all liturgical variations. But the pope has not given them what they were asking. The carefully chosen words of the pope carefully excluded the heart of their requests.

lepanto said...

The NCW did not obtain the approval that they had been seeking. The mild approval for non-liturgical celebrations, readings and prayers and reflections that take place outside of the sacred liturgy, is actually an approval that is already extant for all Catholics. The non-liturgical devotions that take place outside of Mass and the other sacraments are not strictly regulated, and they never have been. The NCW may revel for a while in what they may claim, dishonestly, to be a blanket approval for any and all liturgical variations. But the pope has not given them what they were asking. The carefully chosen words of the pope carefully excluded the heart of their requests.

Prof. Basto said...

This is a supremely depressing moment.

Summorum Pontificum was a bright ray of sunshine, but the experimentation continues, and the crisis of the Church has no end in sight.

The approval of the Kiko Rite is a massive cloud, and Pope Benedict has now proved that he has the same Novus Ordo mindset of Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II.

Prof. Basto said...

Beng,

I'm in despair too. Please, oremus pro invicem.

Prof. Basto said...

MJ said...
The NC Way is a larger movement than traditionalism. The Wikipedia article says there were 100,000 youth from the NC Way at the Cologne World Youth Day in 2005. That's 10% of attendees.

If Juventutem could draw those numbers, then I expect the Vatican would deal with traditionalists differently. But as it stands, traditionalism just isn't a very large movement in the Church and isn't showing the same rapid growth as the NC Way. We just can't expect the same treatment.


Right. Because the "Conciliar Church" only cares about the number of believers.

Orthodox Liturgy, the honour of Almighty God, are all secondary. What is important is the size of the movement.

Gosh!

New Catholic said...

Miles, you have mentioned the article of the Kiko Statutes a million times. We get it. But what H.H. mentioned in his speech was only a sentence ("the Eucharist is essential to the Neocatechumenate, as a post-Baptismal catechumenate, lived in a small community," art. 13 §1) and the authorization for the Neocatechumenals to "celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in the small community, after the first Vespers of Sunday, according to what is established by the Diocesan Bishop (Statutes, art. 13 §2). That is it; you are reading too little into it, while it is precisely the opposite: when little is said, the liturgical abusers always interpret that everything else is possible.

By the way, for those who may not know, "small community" is NeoCat-speak for their own communities - not necessarily small.

NC

John McFarland said...

So: is there anyone left who thinks that the Holy Father is On Our Side, except in the sense that he'd be prepared to take the "sick" (his word) SSPX, unto his bosom if it were prepared to make some obeisance (as sophistical and disingenuous as the SSPX liked) to Vatican II?

For those of you unaware that the NW is theologically a Lutheran conventicle, I strongly recommend IRISH's summary. There's a lot more where that came from, if you have the stomach.

Ecclesia Militans said...

BTW, the NCW is certainly not larger than Tradition.
Their number is estimated at around one million.

Out of Tradition, just the supporters of the SSPX number at around one million.
Adding those that support the Ecclesia Dei communities or go to diocesan TLMs, the number is certainly up to several million souls (6-7 mil. by one source).

So the so-called NCW is not even close to Tradition, though it is a terribly large heretical sect "within" the Church.

Ben Dehler said...

John McFarland and IRISH,

You must show quotes from their official catechetical directory to prove what they believe. Please show me. I have not seen what you say they teach. Thank you, Ben

New Catholic said...

Miles, we understand it, you do not have to post it over and over again. We refer you to our Editorial Note added to the post. Nothing more to be said: let us calling a New Liturgical 'Way', then...

Miles Dei said...

Article 13.3 of their statutes:

§ 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical books of the Roman Rite are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from the Holy See.49 Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place.

_____________
49. See Benedict XVI, Speech to the Neocatechumenal Communities on January 12, 2006, in Notitiae 41 (2005), 554–556;
CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP, Letter of December 1, 2005 in Notitiae 41 (2005), 563–565; “Notification of the
Congregation for Divine Worship on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way,” L’Osservatore Romano, December
24, 1988: “The Congregation consents that among the adaptations foreseen by the instruction “Actio Pastoralis”, nn. 6-11, the
groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may receive communion under two species, always with unleavened bread, and transfer
“ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful.”

MKT said...

It is a sad commentary on the forces gripping the modern papacy that 6 years ago the Pope issued stern warnings to the Kiko-ites and now approves of their liturgicals.

Stripping away anything but a secular sense of the way politics and power works, even in the Vatican and the Curia, this can only reveal the power of the forces backing Kiko et al.

There has to be a sense of embarrassment in the Holy Father's heart at such an about turn within a few years of his own papacy.

This sense alone, that it would be embarrassing simply for the Holy Father to make such an about-turn that leads me to believe this is not at all about liberalism in his own heart.

For whatever reason, the "wolves" that Pope Benedict XVI identified in his opening Papal speech at St Peter's in 2005 as surrounding Peter are more ferocious than ever and he is apparently incapable of muzzling them effectively.

I'm extremely disappointed, and agree with many here that this signals a real disaster for so many souls.

But I'm not ready to throw the towel in on Peter's successor.

Our Lady of Fatima shows us the way ... Pray, pray much for the Holy Father.

Tantumblogo said...

This action - like others in recent years - further reinorces my belief that Pope Benedict XVI is in essence a tragic figure. I beelive he has, at least in the past, diagnosed so much of what s wrong in the Church, and even acknowledged the steps that should be taken to get the Church back to orthodoxy (espc. with regard to the liturgy). But he is a creature of Vatican II. That was the defining moment of his life. He can't, won't accecpt that it was fundamentally flawed. He can't criticize or chastise those movements who have their basis so plainly and deeply in VII. And so we get this. He also idolizes his predecessor, and cannot take any action that would undermine his memory and cause of canonization.

I think there is substance to the claim that the last two Popes started off more traditionally minded, and grew more progressive as time went by. Perhaps this is the influence of the curia, of the overwhelming number of progressive types advising him, influencing him. Yes, he should be able to overcome all that. If he cooperates sufficiently with Grace.

I have prayed for some time that Pope Benedict have a long pontificate. I will just pray for his cooperation with the will of God from now on.

New Catholic said...

Fine, Miles, there you have it. You do not seem to understand the spirit of these evolutions. They do matter. For example (just for one small example), it is WIDELY known and it has been WIDELY witnessed that Communion is STILL received sitting in almost all NCW "Eucharistic Celebrations" - despite it being forbidden, though they can "remain on their places". THAT IS THE WAY THE LITURGICAL REVOLUTION HAS ALWAYS WORKED: abuse becomes toletated > toleration becomes indult > indult becomes norm. And the first two steps have already been taken with MOST NCW practices.

Now, you are being disingenuous. So, please stop.

Tom the Milkman said...

"The NCW did not obtain the approval that they had been seeking."

How could they have obtained ANYTHING???

I don't know about you, but a non-Catholic cult that flatly and openly denies the Sacrifice of the mass, perverts public worship of the Roman Church, and preaches heresy obtaining ANYTHING from the Pope except explicit condemnation accompanied by fervent warnings to the faithful, is startling ... or at least it should be!

Prof. Basto said...

Tom the Milkman has expressed my sentiments exactly. The NCW is a CULT, a CULT. With un-Catholic practices.

They are also, heretics, for they do not hold to the dogma of transubstantiation! They have a different understanding of what takes place, so they shouldn't even be allowed to receive the Eucharist!

If the Church can receive that into its bosom, just because "they are a large movement", then I dont know what else to think.

The liturgical praxis of the Neo Catechumenal Way is nothing but the ideas and ways of Archbishop Bugnini on steroids: the Novus Ordo to the power of ten!

Miles Dei said...

You know by their statues that sitting is not aprobated. The Pope just has recalled them. You know by the rules that before Holy Communion you must make an act of adoration beside your posture except if you are kneelled. Did they make? Then is an abuse you can clear demonstrate. Obstination in the abuse can show some kind of doctrinal deviation. The rest is on the upper hand, but that is an other kind of game. Political and finnacial game too.

Barbara said...

Not a very happy day at all for Tradition and the longed-for Restoration of The Catholic Identity. There is very little of that in the NCW.

Cruise the Groove said:
"If the Neocats are approved and the SSPX are not I have grown even further confused, and I did not think that was possible."

That about sums up my sentiments on this news along with a sense of apprehension...

What's it all about?


And that Helenio person is not real- just a provoker.

"After Jesus Christ, no one is greater than Kiko Arguello. He was sent to save the Church - and HE DID!"

What a yo yo!

Ted Maysfield said...

I am not a pope-worshipper and agree that sometimes the pontiff plays Hegelian games, but the deluge of justification of the SSPX here is something to behold.

How does this latest problematic papal policy somehow affirm the correctness of schismatic SSPX “traditional” Catholicism? I don’t get it.

The SSPX operates outside canon law. Bishop Fellay is the pope of the SSPX. There’s no appeal beyond Fellay.

Then there is the Phariseeism of the parishioners, obsessed with the length of skirts and fanatical avoidance of the outside world.

The SSPX is a cult. Whatever the errors the pope may seem to commit do not make the SSPX less of a cult.

Tradical said...

Hi Ted,

You really need to brush up on your subject before you make a comment on it.

The situation is:

The SSPX operates under the condition of supplied jurisdiction due to a state of necessity existing within the Church when Church leaders do not uphold the Faith.

The approval provided to the NCW is used as a vindication and confirmation that there is indeed a complete state of necessity existing in the entire Church.

Period end stop.

Tradical said...

Hi All Trads,

While sad, as mentioned this action by the Pope comes at a time when it is important for Bishop Fellay and the SSPX to have a clear idea of the dispositions of the prelates that they are dealing with.

In some ways the Pope is a prisoner, but from my vantage point, not of the Vatican but of the mentality embodied so nicely in the documents and spirit of the Second Vatican Council.

Rick DeLano said...

Ted asks:

"How does this latest problematic papal policy somehow affirm the correctness of schismatic SSPX “traditional” Catholicism? I don’t get it."

>> Since I was responsible for the statement "the SSPX was right" without supplying the irreducibly necessary "about what"--mea maxima culpa.

Forgive me, my response reflects a demoralized reaction to this shocking approval of a Protestant heretic cult at Rome today.

I clarify:

The SSPX is *right* that a state of true emergency exists in the Church.

The SSPX is *right* that in a state of true emergency, such as exists in the Church today, unusual and even possibly non-canonical actions may be taken by Catholics determined to hold fast to the Faith once received.

There are many things about which the SSPX is *not* right, but I choose not to enumerate them today.

They have been proven right about the most important thing.

Was the decision to consecrate the bishops an act of schism, or an act of obedience to the Faith in the face of a *true state of emergency*?

It was the latter.

I never thought in my life I would ever say it.

But I have said it, and I believe it.

St. Athanasius pray for us!

Matt said...

Just like Rorate said, who is going to try and stop anything they do? Now that they have their approval, that will be their license to do the very nonsense they're not suppose to do. Just watch.

Summorum Pontificum released the Tridentine Mass but where is the enforcement? This "NeoBS" was just released, who is going to enforce said restrictions? Wherever Sacred Tradition and anything DE FIDE needs to be upheld, the opposite is always pursued. Why the likes of various good priests and the Michael Voris' of the world get slammed but the likes of these McBriens and the nonsense at Notre Dame with Obama just sail along as though it was just a minor upset? The Faithful are insisting on their rights for the Usus Antiquior, who's speaking up for them (us), who's doing their best to maintain their rights granted by Papal decree? Exactly... crickets chirping.

To be fair, let's see how many of these dinner-table Masses are going to be done. Let's just wait and see how obedient this Way (...to Hell?) really is.

Regarding MJ's post of the Holy Father's writings, that's really all they are, just literary works. When there is no enforcement, no effecting of such writings which concern actual ongoing matter in the Church, they are just lofty ideals. You like them, you like them, you don't, you don't. Just one more book on the shelf collecting dust. Notice how the Holy Father never seems to reiterate what he writes, insists on the development of his words into a workable construct? It's not my intention to be snyde, but it seems the Holy Father wants only his fifteen minutes of literary fun.

Matt

Kevin said...

I find comments calling the neocatechumenate heretical astonishing. The way has co-operated fully with the church on getting approval and its catechises have been approved by the Vatican. If the Vatican approves something how can it be heretical? Are you seriously suggesting that the texts that were provided to the Vatican are not the texts used in the actual catechises and no one has noticed? The way send thousands of people to the WYDs and have provided numerous priests for the Church.

The Pope approving the Neocatechumenal liturgies, perhaps shows that that those that thought they understand the liturgy don't understand much of it at all. The theology of the Eucharist is obviously richer than many of the critics of the Way here realise.

John McFarland said...

Dear Ben,

The NC's Lutheranism is pretty common knowledge among those who have looked into it.

I would suggest your looking into it.

A good starting place would be in the 2000 features archive on www.christianorder.com. There were also a couple of articles in the October 2002 number of Christian Order, but they are not online.

If you read Italian, you might look into the work of Fr. Enrico Zoffoli (RIP), a Passionist who wrote voluminously against the Neocats. One of the 2002 pieces is by him. A little nosing around on the web will no doubt turn up more.

IRISH is obviously more up to speed, and may be able to give you better steers.

I would also point out that in this string, a number of folks very much given to giving the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt, and more, are clearly horrified by this latest piece of internal ecumenism.

Ben Dehler said...

John McFarland,

Thanks for writing back. Maybe you or IRISH could point out IN THEIR OFFICIAL, (church approved)DOCUMENTS where you think they teach error. Second hand stuff isn't good enough. I am not a supporter of them but I do think we need to have specific things to criticize. I am talking about their doctrine that they teach. I am also talking about the current updated and approved doctrine.

How they celebrate Mass is a whole other animal. They are supposed to be faithful to the Novus Ordo rubrics. If they aren't, then they are disobedient. To fix the current mess in the Church, substantial change must be made to the new rite itself and bring it more in line with tradition. Then they would comply with those changes.

But that is not what we are talking about here. I want to know (in there own official words) where they speak heresy. If someone could provide it I would be greatful.

Ben

P.K.T.P. said...

First of all, the Neo-Catatonical Way is only a flash in the pan; it is an innovation of sick minds. In contrast, the Traditional Latin Mass is the Mass of yesterday, today and tomorrow; it is the Mass that would not die and cannot die, for the Holy Ghost is its author.

This is why Benedict XVI has now approved the T.L.M. in "Summorum Pontificum" and "Universæ Ecclesiæ". It is now recognised that it was never abrogated in 1971 and has always been permitted. So Benedict XVI has given us the juridical foundation needed for growth and restoration. Today, many hundreds of T.L.M.s are offered every day, and often for very large communities. So we have won.

The Neo-Catatonical Way, in contrast, is an experiment gone wrong. It has no foundation in the Primitive Church, despite the errors of its founders in that regard, and it has no future. Today, it is followed by 'small communities' and is less of a threat to the Truth than are the charismoronics. This Pope has approved its statutes and directory. We may pray that popes in the near future will simply abolish it and the charismatic nonsense with a wave of the hand. Far more serious is the need to face NewMass and the New Ccnciliar Church. Those are declining and falling. If they fall, the pathetic little sects like the Neo-Catatonics will fall with them.

P.K.T.P.

P.K.T.P. said...

While this is not likely to come up, I ask everyone to keep in mind the following. If the Neo-catathoical Wayster use a church which the Latin Mass community also uses, we should endeavour to have the church re-blessed, as the presence of the Neo-Cats amounts to spiritual pollution.

P.K.T.P.

Tom S. said...

I Give Up.

P.K.T.P. said...

Ecclesia Militans and Prof. Basto:

On the size of the traditionalist movement, as older bloggers here know, I keep fairly good statistics. I hate to mention this only to say that the support for Tradition in the Church is largely unknown. One problem is that a very large per centage of traditionalists in the Church are simply not served because there are not nearly enough priests to offer Mass for them.

In the case of Africa and most of Asia, the per centage who would attend the T.L.M. were it available is really unknown. What we do know is that the number of potential supporters is significantly higher than the number who attend in any place. For example, in the U.S.A., at the most, less than one half of one per cent attend the T.L.M. But the number who claim that they would prefer the T.L.M. to NewMass is known by opinion polls to be as high as 17%. A problem is that the T.L.M. is not offered often enough or widely enough to afford them reasonable access, and most T.L.M.s are celebrated at off-hours (not at 'prime time' of 10.00 a.m. on Sundays).

In France, there is much better access to the ancient Mass and a good per centage of faithful attend but, even there, only a very small per centage of total Masses are Traditional Latin Masses.

There is no question that the traditionalist movement has far more adherents than does the neo-catatonical Way. I wish we could say the same of the charismatic movement but I doubt that.

P.K.T.P.

Brian said...

Brick by brick . . .

What a crock.

Jack B. said...

Now if His Holiness would be as kind to Traditionalists and give formal approval to the pre-Bugnini Holy Week rites.

Jeremiah Methuselah said...

Prof. Basto said ... “This is a supremely depressing moment”.

Defo agree. The Neo cats are a wacko cult, just like the Medjugorgeans. Why the Pope seems to have approved what they get up to simply mystifies me. I worry about his ageing … what next ?

Look, Bishop Fellay has never claimed to be the pope of anything, nor does he act like that. What a ludicrous statement.

We have one certainty : the TLM will help to save (y)our soul(s). Go whenever you can, only good things will happen.

JM

David said...

Defo agree. The Neo cats are a wacko cult, just like the Medjugorgeans. Why the Pope seems to have approved what they get up to simply mystifies me. I worry about his ageing … what next?

My fear is approval of Medjugorje.

Prof. Basto said...

My fear is approval of Medjugorje.

Can the Church approve a false apparition of Our Lady? I don't think so.

And I am positive, 100% sure, that the Medjugorje phenomenon is fake, it is a travesy, and the "scheduled apparitions" are nothing but scéances that only fool those who are stupid. Such scéances are incompatible with the Catholic religion.

So, because I'm sure that Medjugorje if fake, unless it was demonstrated to me that the Church CAN fail when sanctioning an appartion as worthy of belief, approval of Medjugorje would probably lead to a complete loss of Faith on my part.

Ecclesia Militans said...

Well, if they approve it, they will act contrary to the judgement of two subsequent bishops and the official judgement and declaration of an episcopal conference of about 30 bishops ("non constat de supernaturalitate"), given back in the 90s.

This would be unheard-of in the history of the Church.

Mar said...

To Helenio Ortiz,
Just remember that pride comes before a fall, just as in the beginning Pride came before the Fall.

iowapapist said...

quia tu es Petrus, et super hanc petram ædificabo ecclesiam meam, et portæ inferi non prævalebunt adversus eam. Matthaeus 16:18

Steve said...

"To conciliate and accommodate everyone is to dilute the timeless doctrine of faith..."

And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus is not of God. -I John IV

Ivan K said...

Here's a question: Is the Neocat liturgy really much worse than the average Novus Ordo? The one that I attend has the same kind of altar--it's on a 'stage', but it can be wheeled around for convenience; the music is just as banal; people don't dance but they hold hands at the Our Father, which is worse than dancing. WHen the new translation came the priest solved the problem of the difficult words by switching to the Apostles' Creed. C'est toujours la meme guitare. The Novus Ordo is the Zelig of liturgies; it has no theological identity, and it can be Kiko-Kiko-cha-cha-cha just as much as a TLM look-alike. It's so doctrinally empty and versatile that even the Anglicans embrace it. That's just a fact about the current state of Catholicism. We're surrounded by Cathars. On the bright side, we're not going to get our heads split open like St. Peter of Verona did for trying to convert them.

New Catholic said...

That is actually a very good point, IvanK.

Worse than the dancing, though, is the use by the NCW of soft, crumbly large loaves of flatbread as matter... which, after consecration, are divided up with all the mess that is to be expected from their use. If everything is done validly, then it is a great shame that so great risks are taken with the Most Holy Sacrament.

Tradical said...

Hi All,

Not knowing a lot about the NCW - I decided to do some trolling.

Here's a

link! to the sspxasia website.

Hopefully - I added the link correctly.

John Fisher said...

We have all been told to trust the bishops, the Pope. Everything is changing and being restored with Pope Benedict XVI. How can one trust? We are told to be obedient to the ordinary magisterium.
How can I? How can I trust? This decison like so many is a clear contradiction to the actions and statements of both Canizares and the Pope.
It sows seeds of liturgical chaos where ever the NCW goes. This group needs to be suppressed.
We must all fight this and oppose this group everywhere it is. Stand up to its members. Call it a sect. Encourage thse in the sect to leave. Stop them joining. Bishops block it from being in the diocese. Priests attack it from the pulpit.
When it has been excluded and goes no where it will no longer be a problem for the Church. Ultimately all of this is a lesson in how these cancerous sects grow. Bugnini was involved with it.
"God rise upa boer is in your vineyard!"

David Werling said...

You guys are disappointed now? Wait until the commission investigating Medjugorje comes out with its "findings".

It's all of a piece, people. These times will destroy your soul if you let it. Fight the good fight, pray, make reparation and just do everything you can save your soul and the souls of your family and friends. That's all we can do now that Satan is having his day.

Tradical said...

Hi David,

Not really disappointed, just forewarned.

:-)

Tradical said...

Hi All,

Ortiz is absolutely correct with "...We follow Kiko and Carmen ... We are the concrete fruit of the Vatican Council II. ..."

They definitely are the fruit of V2, along with Assisi 1,2,3; the charismatics; the founder of the Legionaires etc.

V2, unfortunately, will continue to bear its fruit for sometime yet.

P^3

John Fisher said...

"The Church has recognised in the Way a special gift which the Holy Spirit has given to our times. The approval of the Statutes and of the 'Catechetical Directory' are a sign of this". Pardon me Holy Father but all of us even you have to conform yourself all the doctrines of the Church. When you approve a group whose leaders teach their own erroneous opinions instead of the Church's you destroy your own authority and cause confusion. You cause schism and fail to be strong.

John Fisher said...

"Kiko writes, "The notion of sacrifice entered in the Eucharist by condescension for the pagan mentality (...). At the beginning of the Church, in the theology of the Mass, there was no sacrifice of Jesus, no sacrifice of the Cross, (...).". No sacrifice on the cross, no sacrifice of the Mass. But why reject the Church's teaching on redemption in the first place?" Here is more http://www.cathud.com/links/pages_MR/Neocatechumenal_Way_Kiko_Arguello.htm

M. A. said...

"You guys are disappointed now? Wait until the commission investigating Medjugorje comes out with its "findings"."
-------------------------

What do you know, David? Is the plan to have them included under the "big tent"?

John Fisher said...

"Another clear sect-like characteristic of the Neocatechumenate is their adulation of their founder and their zeal in carrying out whatever he orders. Everything absolutely must be signed by "Kiko", the paten, the chalice, the cross, the lectern, and whatever else is used! Kiko's writings, while kept strictly secret from outsiders, are treated as if they were sacred texts inside the Way. In this they are not dissimilar to the Mormon Sect, which also treat their founder as a latter-day prophet and his writing as sacred text.

I cannot think of any other Catholic leader in history who had such hubris that he felt that he had the right to arrogate to himself the authority to rewrite the Mass to accommodate his dissent from the faith of the Church. Nor can I think of any other movement in history whose followers were so slave-like in their mentality that they would have gone along with it without a whimper of protest.

The Neocatechumenate's liturgies and Masses are liberally infused with his music. Kiko is a flamenco guitarist and writes all his music and hymns in this style. Which is fine if you are a flamenco buff, but if your taste is a little more Catholic and runs to Palestrina for instance, it is more likely to wind you up than raise the heart and mind to God.

Even there catechesis is clearly by rote, carrying out Kiko's or Carmen's instructions to the letter. This is given away by the fact that their apologists, who work in small teams, frequently turn to one another for prompting and will quietly interject if someone has forgotten something that was in the script.

Seeing Kiko in action was the beginning of the end for one ex-member. He related to me, "Having invariably kept his supporters waiting for an hour or more, Kiko would swagger into the room dressed dramatically all in black and then rant like a demagogue."

http://www.cathud.com/links/pages_MR/Neocatechumenal_Way_Kiko_Arguello.htm

Gratias said...

Thank you Tradical for the interesting link above on Kiko.

What we will do is to take the 75-mile drive to the Traditional Latin Mass this Sunday. The Catholic Church is eternal and none of us can afford to give up because of one more disappointment. To rebuild the Church we have to attend TLM as often as possible.

Barbara said...

NC said:
"Worse than the dancing, though, is the use by the NCW of soft, crumbly large loaves of flatbread as matter... which, after consecration, are divided up with all the mess that is to be expected from their use. If everything is done validly, then it is a great shame that so great risks are taken with the Most Holy Sacrament."

This is what disturbs and distresses me the most - their eucharistic liturgy - this desacrilizing,mishandling and casual approach to the Sacrament.

It's anti-Catholic - the NCWs have embraced the Catholic view in the life ethics - which is great - but that's about it.


IN his Iota Unum Prof. Amerio writes:
"John Paul II described the state of the Church in these terms at a conference on missions given among Catholic populations (Feb. 1981): 'We must admit realistically and with feeling of deep pain, that Christians today in large measure feel lost, confused, perplexed and even disappointed; ideas opposed to the truth which has been revealed and always taught are being scattered abroad in abundance; heresies, in the full and proper sense of the word, have been spread in the area of dogma and morals creating doubts, confusions and rebellions; the liturgy has been tampered with...[...]"
(page 7 Iota unum)

The present Pope has said similar things many times...so he cannot contradict himself I would think

There were a number of "buts" in the Holy Father's statement - that's what I'm holding on to for the moment...

And now I'm going to Holy Mass...with Our Lady , our only hope!

Barbara

Barbara said...

NC said:
"Worse than the dancing, though, is the use by the NCW of soft, crumbly large loaves of flatbread as matter... which, after consecration, are divided up with all the mess that is to be expected from their use. If everything is done validly, then it is a great shame that so great risks are taken with the Most Holy Sacrament."

This is what disturbs and distresses me the most - their eucharistic liturgy - this desacrilizing,mishandling and casual approach to the Sacrament.

It's anti-Catholic - the NCWs have embraced the Catholic view in the life ethics - which is great - but that's about it.


IN his Iota Unum Prof. Amerio writes:
"John Paul II described the state of the Church in these terms at a conference on missions given among Catholic populations (Feb. 1981): 'We must admit realistically and with feeling of deep pain, that Christians today in large measure feel lost, confused, perplexed and even disappointed; ideas opposed to the truth which has been revealed and always taught are being scattered abroad in abundance; heresies, in the full and proper sense of the word, have been spread in the area of dogma and morals creating doubts, confusions and rebellions; the liturgy has been tampered with...[...]"
(page 7 Iota unum)

The present Pope has said similar things many times...so he cannot contradict himself I would think

There were a number of "buts" in the Holy Father's statement - that's what I'm holding on to for the moment...

And now I'm going to Holy Mass...with Our Lady , our only hope!

Barbara

Matt said...

PK said, "We have won."

No, sir, we have not won. Until the Tridentine Mass becomes a generality and not a continued novelty, until these bishops and pastors stop repeatedly refusing to allow such Extraordinary Masses even though the Faithful carefully stipulate everything Canonically in their favor that said bishop/pastor should allow it and get denied out of hand, no, we have not won!

IMO, the SSPX/Rome dialogue is actually the most critical matter to be resolved for this Papacy (not that I am speaking as though I know what's on the table the Holy Father is dealing with). The Anglican Ordinariates are such a wonderful development for the Church and should lend itself most favorably for the SSPX, but as I said in another thread on this blog there are two things to watch for, this NeoCat business and how the SSPX are going to be dealt with, is a barometer on what the mindset of this Papacy is like. Well, first one down, and sooner than I had expected, now the SSPX's turn.

In prayer,

Matt

Veritas said...

Regarding those who asserted that John Paul II and Pope Benedict were both more conservative at the beginning of their Pontificate, I have a different opinion.

Neither man went through any change. Rather, the Catholics of the world initially projected on them what the desire them to be - namely, defenders of the faith. This illusion was able to persist for a time, before reality set in. Pope Benedicts theological books, which are still in print, have been available for all to read. Therefore, none of this should have been a surprise. The only thing conservative about John Paul II and Benedict XVI at the beginning of their Pontificate was the illusion projected upon them by the Catholics of good will.

Once this illusion could no longer be sustained, reality set in. It is much easier the face reality from the beginning, rather than being let down at a later time when the delusion fades.

Let us not lose hope, but rather renew our zeal for the Faith. "This is the hour of darkness". The mystical body of Christ is enduring what our Lord endured during His passion. Those who preserve the Faith will suffer exactly what Christ suffered, in various degrees. Our Lord was mocked and spit upon; so too will those who preserve the true Faith. Our Lord was crowned with thorns; in like manner we will be tormented with heresies. Our Lord was crucified between two thieves; in the same way, we be treated as criminals. Let us rejoice in this trial, for, in reality, none of us are worthy to suffer these things for Christ. If the Saints in Heaven could be jealous, they would be jealous of what Traditional Catholics have the privilege to endure during this time of apostasy.

I have only one piece of advice: Do not trust in man, regardless of his position of authority. The greatest angel, Lucifer, apostatized and took 1/3 of the angels with him. Then God created man. What happened? The first man betrayed him, which resulted in the Fall of the human race. Then God promised to send a Redeemer to save man; He established a Chosen People through which the Messiah would come, and what did they do? When He came the leaders of the true Church (at the time) rejected Him and put Him to death. Next God used this death to redeem mankind and established a Church as the means by which men would be saved. Considering what has happened over and over again, what should we expect the leaders of this Church to do near the end? If you said “betray the Son of God and persecute those who hold to the faith”, your answer fits in perfectly with what has happened over and over again throughout history. Therefore, let us not be surprised that this is taking place. Rather than becoming depressed, let us renew our FAITHFULNESS to Almighty God and be willing to endure all things rather than betray Him in the least.

Enoch said...

I don't see how the neocats can be worse than the charismatic pentacostal Catholics, who also believe that they are returning to an earlier form of worship - such speaking in tongues and propheyseying like some in the Apostolic Age of the early Church did.

I don't know a lot about this neocat belief system, except what's been posted here, but it seems to be yet another minimalist approach to the liturgy. Does anyone happen to know if the founders Kiko and Carmen were influenced at all by Franciscans? After all, it's the Franciscans who are behind the shenanigans at Medjugore, and I think they're charismatics as well.

I have to wonder if perhaps the pope had to make some sort of deal. He had to approve the neocats in exchange for something else. We don't like to think that this is how it works, but it's a possibility. And I do think that the pope is traditionally-inclined. He only gives communion on the the tongue to those who are kneeling. I doubt the neocats and other minimalists approve of this.

Ecclesia Militans said...

I know you are referring to the disobedient Franciscans in Medjugorje but it is not the views of the Order of St. Francis that are responsible for that situation, more likely the views of the carismatics.

But the situation is much more complicated, involving a century of disputes over parishes between the Franciscans and the seculars.

Gratias said...

The silver lining of this disastrous approval and of the Anglican Ordinariate is that bringing in the SSPX into the big tent would be much easier. They probably could have any administrative structure they choose, with the V2 Preamble as sole condition. I think that unifying tradition has been Benedict XVI's long-term aim. The Extraordinary form has to grow within the Church structure and our generation is charged with doing it.

Matt said...

"I think that unifying tradition has been Benedict XVI's long-term aim."

When the nonsense gets priority and matters Traditional (Liturgical and Dogmatic) get short shrift in enforcement and opportunity, that thought is perhaps to be doubted.

Matt

Pablo the Mexican said...

"...But I'm sure that the Kiko Rite is offered in Hell, which is where it came from.

P.K.T.P..."

Isabella La Catolica must be doing somersaults in her grave.

*

JMJ Ora Pro Nobis said...

The pope is a Vatican II man, its about time we started realising that

Bartholomew said...

Gratias said:

"The silver lining of this disastrous approval and of the Anglican Ordinariate is that bringing in the SSPX into the big tent would be much easier."

Given what the Pontiff just approved with the NeoCat catechetical doctrine, giving the approbation of the Church to teachings which are cultish and heretical, the SSPX may well back away from regularization.

Tradical said...

Hi All,

In thinking about the NeoCat issue and Ortiz' posting.

Thoughts in random order:
1. The Church isn't a big tent it is an insane asylum where the sane are locked up (or out) and the insane are in charge.

2. Assuming that Ortiz's reaction is a typical example when the NCW is questioned, the Church has let another 'one' out of their cell in order to make room for the SSPX.

3. Taking into account that the Japanese Bishops wanted to expel the NCW from Japan and that Rome overruled them, the diabolical disorientation is in full swing. When Bishops want to expel a group like the NCW, it is either really good or really bad. Given the posted information, I believe it is the latter.

4. The heresies in the Church are viral, mutating and extremely contagious.

5. Kiko = false prophet, based on how Ortiz places Kiko after Jesus but ahead of the Pope etc.

6. Its good to have a good view of the diseased flesh before it gets excised. I have a suspicion that things are going to get darker before the dawn of the 'springtime' of the Church.

Sorry for a depressing post, I'm just pondering the implications of this decision by the Pope.

I am looking forward to how the FSSP, SSPX will react.

Ben Dehler said...

Can someone please answer my questions?

John McFarland and IRISH have not given me any current quotes from officially approved, by Rome, documents from the Neocats. I am not a supporter of the Neocats. I want to be fair and learn about them. All the quotes I have read from them or about them on other peoples websites are very old. The quotes come before the Vatican's fixing, then approving, their statutes and directory. I want a copy of their "new" statutes and directory before I make rash judgments. The link which 'John Fisher' sent doesn't even work.

Now, let us be clear. They use awful music and the New Mass like most parishes do today. We all know the deficiencies of the New Mass. Until real reform of the books, music and direction of prayer toward tradition take place, all Masses besides the Tridentine Mass, are relatively the same. The New Mass must be fixed.

For now I see no reason to believe the official books which the Pope approved have heretical content. If the Pope is steering this group back into right teaching and worship(according to the new mass)then he is doing his job trying to keep the church together. Reform of the current Missal will bring the Neocat liturgy and the rest of the masses in line with tradition, if a Traditional reform takes place.
Let us Pray

Ben

Tradical said...

Hi Ben,

I agree it would be nice if there was something describing their 'liturgy' of whatever it is called in order to compare it to the Novus Ordo.

However, given that the founders had heretical beliefs concerning the Sacrificial nature of the Mass etc I would be surprised if what is written down about the liturgy reflects their thoughts and principles on the liturgy.

I'm looking forward to what other leading lights find on this topic.

Johan said...

There's that Menorah again, must have been a ecumenical service.

Prof. of Theo said...

I will again point out concerning the comments here that there is still not a single theological objection to this rite. Can someone please take the time to actually cite from the rite itself when they offer a criticism. Otherwise your comments only reveal that you are theologically ignorant.

All the comments see some vast conspiracy but not a single person presents any facts based on the rite itself.

- A professor of Theology.

Rick DeLano said...

Dear Professor of Theology:

Your request is perfect.

You are the perfect exemplar of the problem.

We Catholics abhor novelty and innovation, because over 2,000 years we have come to understand that the spirit of novelty and innovation has been the spirit of heresy.

You insist that we defenders of what has been organically (Traditionally!) handed down to us are to be subjected to a "theological" vetting by....well I suppose by Professors of Theology-a title which, if you will forgive me, is not one which inspires categorical confidence in the face of the appalling disaster now engulfing our beloved Church.

You must forgive me for saying that the Professors of Theology (I do not mean you, sir, but I do mean the category into which you have inserted yourself) have betrayed, have failed, have wreaked misery and darkness upon our beloved Church, and so we do not trust our Professors of Theology.

You must forgive us now for not trusting our Professors of Theology, when they insist that the burden of proof is somehow upon us, who hold fast to the Traditions of our beloved Church, instead of upon the grotesque Protestant heretic cult which denies the Sacrifice of the Mass, and gloats upon its victory over us "Latin lovers".

Professor, the burden is not upon us.

It is upon you.

Why should the faithful not groan to wake up and find that the world has gone Kiko?

I am not Spartacus said...

There is not one Catholic living who can identify one Pre V2 Pope who would have approved Kiko's Cult and so I make the observation that the Brick-By-Brick Bond Fund has suddenly experienced a dramatic devaluation.

Cunjo said...

I haave already answered to the professor of theology but my comment hasn't been published. I firmly believe it was an accident so i will briefly respond again.

Dear professor,
the reason why there is a certain lack of sound arguments against liturgical traditions of the Neocatecumenal Way(NW) is the following:
The whole crew that is following this blog is more than familiar with the history, tradition and value of not only Roman liturgy but whole Christian liturgy. We have all read numerous books, letters and articles(Amerio, Davies, Gamber, Lefebvre, Pope Benedict XVI, etc.) on liturgy, tradition, problems of the V2, problems of the V2 conciliarism and other subjects. We all know theological and liturgical arguments so we don't see the point in reiterating them over and over.

I beg for this comment to be published. Thank you.

Marko

Augustinus said...

The "Prof of Theology" and other tiresome lazybones who are asking for "proof" about the novelties of the NCW should, instead, go back to the blog post and CLICK the tag "Neocatechumenal Way" at the bottom.
There is more than enough material in the posts with that tag to show the problems with this group.

UnamSanctam said...

So at last the veils of blindness fall away from the eyes of so many Catholics who thought this Pope was a "Traditionalist" in some way.

No: he always has had one foot firmly planted in the camp of the Revolutionaries, and we see this ever more clearly, particularly with the all-clear given to this protestant group whose foundational writings pour total scorn on the Church from the time of Constantine to 1965, and which show a hatred of the Mass a la Luther.

These Neocats are simply protestants. The Pope should be suppressing them, not blessing them.

The Revolution marches on!

Long-Skirts said...

Augustino said:

"go back to the blog post and CLICK the tag "Neocatechumenal Way" at the bottom.
There is more than enough material in the posts with that tag to show the problems with this group."

So MANY wrongs
Don't make a rite!

Jeremiah Methuselah said...

@Long-Skirts sid "So MANY wrongs
Don't make a rite! "

Defo the finest comment on the whole wretched business.

Thank you very much Ma'am.

JM

Prof. of Theo said...

Dear Rick DeLano,

You wrote, "You are the perfect exemplar of the problem."

Respondeo: I am not an exemplar of anything. You apparently accuse me of a the crime of demanding proof. Since when is proof problematic?

You write, "Professors of Theology have betrayed, have failed, have wreaked misery and darkness upon our beloved Church, and so we do not trust our Professors of Theology."

Respondeo: I think you mean that "many" or "most" professors of Theology have betrayed. I do not think it is true that "all" professors of theology have betrayed the faith. If that were true, then there is not a single prof. of theology, even in the SSPX, that should be listened to. There is after all no guilt by mere association.

You write, "Professor, the burden is not upon us. It is upon you."

Respondeo: It is not upon me but upon you. You (not I) have charged the magisterium with an evil. The burden is upon you. Since when must the magisterium constantly explain itself to lay people who in many cases cannot formulate a single theological sentence.

I am still waiting for someone to make a theological argument.

In Christ,
Professor of Theology

New Catholic said...

Professor of Theology,

Are you a priest?

Thank you,

NC

Barbara said...

Professor of Theology,

Three dozen degrees in theology are not necessary to understand that the heart of the Catholic Faith is The Most Blessed and Sacred Sacrament of the altar and therefore, even a superficial knowledge or exposure to The Neocatechumenal Way is sufficient to know that they have departed from this Truth which has always been taught. A devout and simple Catholic knows this. With this I am not minimizing the importance of sound competent theologians…just saying. Maybe you could try attending a NCW liturgy, Professor?

Barbara

Tony from Oz said...

"Prof of Theol"

Why not do a little of your own research here - after all, as a theologian? You will know what you're looking for, whereas untrained minions may not.

I do not think, notwithstanding a lack of 'theological critique from your standpoint - that an outraged sense of a departure from received liturgical forms by the Faithful is at all irrelevant. The following of customary usage has been the bedrock of Catholic praxis until the last nano-second of Church history.

Reliance upon abstruse, and strained, post facto theological justification for liturgical innovations has been a hallmark of all our troubles since Vatican II - as opposed to theological reflection and justification of the liturgy as 'received' (ie the TLM).

This disdainful 'magisterium of the experts' - implicit in your demand for theological objections to the 'NCW 'rite'' - is the very epitome of post conciliar confusion, rootlessness and alienation from Catholic identity.

Good on you Rick DeLano - I think you have it nailed. If Prof of Theol wants to critique (and, one suspects, justify) NCW ritual behaviour, let him do it himself and not rely on us plebs!

Tony from Oz

Tony from Oz

John McFarland said...

Dear Ben Dehler,

Your request for "official" pronouncements regarding the Neocats is very much like asking for an official pronouncement as to what Masonry stands for.

The Neocats are a classic example of an organization that has a public agenda, and one that has a real agenda.

The critical examination of the Neocats first begin in (if memory serves) the 1970s, when the materials giving their real and full doctrine fell into the wrong hands. They don't go around telling people that they're theological Lutherans; but they (or at least their cognoscenti) are. IRISH's list of the peculiarities of their Mass makes this quite obvious.

But even the readily available horror stories make it pretty clear that the NC can fairly be described as a nut cult.

You also don't seem to understand that the Vatican doesn't care about the NC's principles. All it cares about it that it is an organization that generates enthusiasm among its supporters, and is prepared to profess loyalty to the Holy See.

Veritas said...

Here's a link to an article listing some of the doctrinal errors of the NCW: http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_1995/features_apr95.html

Tradical said...

Hi Prof,

While this is not a theological argument in response to your question, I'd like to comment on the following quote with a question:

"... Since when must the magisterium constantly explain itself to lay people ..."

The purpose of the magisteriuim is to teach the Church Learning.

Given the accusations of heretical beliefs of the founders of the NeoCatWay For example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocatechumenal_Way#Criticisms

What is the magisterium teaching the Church by approving the NeoCatWay 'liturgy'?


NB: If you find a refutation of the accusations, I would be happy as I have not located any at this time.

John McFarland said...

Dear Professor,

Am I missing something?

IRISH has given us a list of elements of the Neocat Mass that are strikingly Lutheran. A number of these particulars of the Neocat Mass are new to me; the charges of Lutheranism are not. They go back to the 70s, and I've never come across anything that made any serious effort to deny the charges.

Since you are the pro, I would think that the veracity of these statements is something you could look into.

But whether you undertake the exercise or not, let me offer you a related thought.

The Neocatechumenal Way appeals to the ancient catechumenate as its precedent, but then says it is a catechumenate of those already baptized.

What this would seem to mean is that neocatechumens (if you will) are being catechized with a NEW catechesis.

But we are Catholics have been taught that if anyone, even an angel from heaven (or, presumably, Kiko and Carmen), brings us a doctrine different from the doctrine that has been handed down to us, anathema sit.

Adfero said...

Professor of Theology, I would suggest you answers New Catholic's question. Are you a priest?

Ben Dehler said...

Hello John McFarland,

I completely understand the doctrinal errors of this group in the past. The reason I am looking for current and corrected doctrinal statements is because I want to see how the Holy See is reigning them in. I am assuming that the approval is taking so long because many changes are taking place. To know their current status, we must see the new Catechetical directory. Someone out there owns a copy.

I also understand your comparison to the Masons. It is hard to know things about this type of organization or any hidden agenda without being "on the inside". Lets just hope that future Popes continue to "reign in" there doctrine as they live it out.

Once again, as far as there liturgy goes.... As the Novus Ordo goes it will go. We all know that the New Mass needs major Reform.

In Christ, Ben

Jordanes551 said...

Professor of Theology, it's a simple question, and there is a good reason for asking it. Are you a priest?

Your comments are being held in unmoderated status pending your answer to NC's question.

Jeremiah Methuselah said...

Here we go, next stop Medjugorge.

M. A. said...

"Here we go, next stop Medjugorge."
_______________________________

Yes, I can see it heading in that direction. About a week ago, I saw the headlines of some article proclaiming the miraculous cure through the intercession of the "Lady of Medjugorje", of a little boy who had had numerous cancer tumors.

That, together with Schonborn's shenanigans, and we can surmise what we are being prepared for.

John McFarland said...

Hello Ben Dehler,

I would bet you twenty five cents against my life that there are no significant changes in the directory, but it's immoral to bet on a sure thing.

But wiseguyisms aside, I find it difficult to be much concerned about how the Vatican treats to liturgy or quasi-liturgy of heretics, when it does not lift a finger against the heresy.

We now have a Luterhan conventicle in canonical good standing in the Church of Christ.

John McFarland said...

Dear Anonymous,

Unless Sr. Ortiz advises otherwise, I think that he means that Kiko is second among those possessing a human nature.

Of course, that does mean that Kiko is greater than the Blessed Mother, and St. Joseph, and John the Baptist, and all the rest of the saints in glory.

Well, perhaps he's just exaggerating, or got the rhetorical bit in his teeth for a moment.

Then again, maybe not.

QuoTSCumquae said...

This seems to be right along the same line as his previous actions as Pope. We really should not be surprised. He is doing what we ought to expect him to do. And we can expect more of the same. This is Benedict XVI, plain and simple.

Elizabeth_T said...

Pope Benedict XVI is infallible.
There is no sede vacanti.

May the Lord bless Pope Benedict XVI, and may we accept his judgement with patience and May the Virgin Mary calm the fears of our hearts to see the will of God through this hysteria.

May the Lord especially have mercy on the poor soul of Helenio Ortiz, who needs to convert. Clearly Helenio is either playing devils advocate or knows nothing about charity and should ask forgiveness for being so arrogant.