I like the open doorway to the right side of the cartoon, with the people walking by content in their lives and completely disinterested in what's inside the church. THAT captures very well of the post-V2 situation in my opinion.
Back in late 60s Brooklyn, there was a bitter wisecrack current among conservative Catholics of my parents' generation: "Pope John opened the windows of the Church, and the Holy Ghost flew out."
Ecclesia est Sancti, non Gentes.
The effects of the council are best stated by the one who closed it, papa Montini. That the smoke of satan has entered the church and that instead of sunny days, the council brought forth dark clouds. What more is there to say?
I always had a problem with the "open wide the windows/doorways and let in the fresh air" imagery invoke by Vatican II adorers. That analogy fails to realise that the Church is parked right next to a garbage heap (the world and its values) and if you open the windows and doors too wide, all you get is the stench from the neighbours. Sadly, that is exactly what we have gotten since the Council.
...and if the reverse were true? That attendance in Churches, convents, seminaries increased, it would be lauded as the "fruits of Council" having brought that about. Why, then, are so many of us castigated when we attribute the horror of the last fifty years to the Council?-Donnacha
They'll all come back if Fr just renovates the church. I mean, seriously, the tabernacle is visible; there are kneelers on the pews; I see statues; and there is even a pulpit. Modern man can not be expected to commune properly with the devine in the presence of all these distractions.Oh, and where is the giant screen suitable for powerpoint?
If I had my wish I would wish Vatican II, and its "spirit" never took place or happened. Yet, If Vatican II had to happen, I think if the original schema were adhered to at the Council, alot of the modernism, relativism, syncretism and indifferentism we've seen the last fifty years would not be as bad. True, you'd still have modernist and liberal bishops promoting nonsense in the spirit of the council, but maybe the Church (laity and clergy through good catechesis) could have weathered the storm. I don't know, just thinking and writing out loud.
I find it interesting that at Franciscan University – the epi-center of all things celebrating the great "renewal" of Vatican II, JP II, etc. – there has been almost no discussion of the Council on this 50th anniversary. Just a couple of perfunctory talks offered to interested students. Certainly nothing like the orgy of celebrations some of us expected.
Compared to right before Vatican II, there are now, per Catholic, at least in the U.S.,half as many priestsquarter as many nunshalf as many infant baptisms(source)As a result of Vatican II, the only council in Church history called during a time of prosperity in the Church, and according to the Freemasons’ plans (cf. this), which Pope Leo XIII warned us about (cf. his encyclical Humanum Genus), we are now facing the Church’s biggest crisis.
I also wish Vatican II had never taken place. It has caused a lot of division and confusion.
I know of one parish, Jesuit as it so happens, which has run a series of talks under the title, " Vatican II, 50 Glorious Years"I'm not joking.
@Francis: You can read some of the original schemas (translated) here.
John McFarland said..."...and the Holy Ghost flew out.""Oh! Was I supposed to be there?!"TheHoly Ghost
Timothy, perhaps the catastrophic magnitude of the Hippie Council is becoming undeniable to anyone with even a single conservative bone in his body.
I just read on a blog that parishes are beginning to require 'loyalty oaths.' What are they? Do they include oaths to Vatican II?
@AlanThe schema on chastity is eerily prescient, given that the council was convened on the eve of the sexual revolution. One can only imagine what the state of the Church might be today if these schemata had actually served as the basis for the council's final texts. The unqualified optimism of the actual documents seems dated and even naive from today's perspective.
Build a new Church Build a new ChurchJust for you and just for meLiturgical expertsCon-fer-encesAll day off on Su-un-dee!Build a new ChurchBuild a new ChurchBased on love and charitySee that vagrant standing outside?Get him moved by Sec-ur-itee!Build a new ChurchBuild a new ChurchWhat's that fireball in the sky?Bloody hell He does exist thenAnd He doesn't look ha-app-ee!
Dr. Williams, with due respect, is it possible for you to post without disparaging Franciscan University, who apparently employs you and provides you with a paycheck?
"As a result of Vatican II, the only council in Church history called during a time of prosperity in the Church."Modernists were rampant throughout the Church. That is why Pope Saint Pius X and, right up to the late 1950s via Pope Venerable Pius XII, Popes were hard-pressed to contain unorthodox Churchmen who, by the 1960s, had unleashed their liturgical/spiritual revolution upon the Faithful.In 1998 A.D., Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (His Holiness) painted a bleak picture of pre-Vatican II Liturgy, at least as offered within the Latin Church.He said that "one has to admit that the celebration of the ancient liturgy was too lost in the realm of the individual and the private. "One must admit that the communion between the priest and the faithful was lacking. "Perhaps, these reduced forms of celebration are the fundamental reason why the disappearance of the ancient liturgical books had no importance in many countries and caused no pain."There was never any contact with the liturgy itself."That is why the Holy Father, as well as Pope Paul VI, Pope Venerable John Paul II and countless Churchmen from that general period of time, believed in the Vatican II Era revolution, particularly the "renewed liturgy".Their recollection of the state of Holy Mother Church and liturgy prior to the Council wasn't as upbeat as the view held by many Traditionalists who long for, if you will, the pre-Vatican II Church.Tom
If the Holy Spirit hadn't gone out the window, then why did they turn off the mic? and why did so many of the council fathers find it hilarious when they did?Would these same council fathers have turned off the mic on Jesus?The civil business suit expert priests who attended the council and formulated its texts, really wanted to keep the Church in continuity with tradition.
Andrew said, "I always had a problem with the "open wide the windows/doorways and let in the fresh air" imagery invoke by Vatican II adorers. That analogy fails to realise that the Church is parked right next to a garbage heap (the world and its values) and if you open the windows and doors too wide, all you get is the stench from the neighbours. Sadly, that is exactly what we have gotten since the Council."Yes, Andrew, that is so true but not only stench but also an infestation of assorted *rats* and *cockroaches* of various ilk!
Thank you Alan Aversa for the link included in the 10th post of this discussion. I learned a lot.
Alan Aversa said, "Compared to right before Vatican II, there are now, per Catholic, at least in the U.S.:half as many priestsquarter as many nunshalf as many infant baptisms..."Alan, sadly we also mention annulments in the US are more than the rest of the world put together (tallied by the Vatican's own statistics). No wonder non-Catholics and Catholics ill-informed believe annulments are just a tidy way of saying divorce. wink wink
JTLiuzza...There is nothing in my post that disparages Franciscan University. I have merely pointed out an amazing paradox, one that was pointed out to me recently by a colleague.
"If the Holy Spirit hadn't gone out the window, then why did they turn off the mic? and why did so many of the council fathers find it hilarious when they did?" Sam, are you referring to what happened to Cardinal Ottiaviani? What a shocking and depressing incident! I remember my heart sinking when I read about it.
"Sam, are you referring to what happened to Cardinal Ottiaviani?"Exactly, it was a regrettable act, unworthy of the princes of the Church. This reveals the true Spirit of Vatican II (aka VII Church). This brings to mind the following quote from the Gospel of St Matthews "Either make the tree good, and its fruit good; or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.""What a shocking and depressing incident! I remember my heart sinking when I read about it."To this day I find it hard to believe that these bishops would act in this way.
"I find it interesting that at Franciscan University – the epi-center of all things celebrating the great "renewal" of Vatican II, JP II, etc. – there has been almost no discussion of the Council on this 50th anniversary."They may just be discussing in tongues and we simply need to find a translator.
there is just too much talk about Vatican II. when will it ever end. did people talk about Vatican I for 50 years? the bishop who called for a Vatican III to clear up all the ambiguities in those prolix documents was right. until that happens it's just going to continue the confusion and exodus.
"There is nothing in my post that disparages Franciscan University""Come on" as they say, Dr. Williams. You don't miss an opportunity to take a shot at FUS. And yet you make your living there. My daughter is a senior there and recently penned an article regarding modesty of dress and got one or two ugly notes slipped beneath her door in her dorm as a result. But those were the minority. Most supported her. At least she had the courage to be orthodox and dealt with the resistance from the few who didn't like it.If FUS displeases you so, either try to make it more orthodox, knowing that you will get some resistance like my 21 year old daughter did, or leave it for a university that will better suit your sensibilities.Taking shots at FUS on the internet while you are in their employ doesn't to me seem a productive or sustainable course of action.My daughter will graduate in May in Catechetics/Theology and will pursue a Masters in same at another school. She will spend her life properly catechizing young people and FUS has done a superb job teaching her the faith, how to teach it to others, and helping her grow in holiness. I am her father and I have seen it.
"They may just be discussing in tongues and we simply need to find a translator."This is derision, Mr. Peterman. And delivered by you on a Sunday, no less.My daughter has spent four years on that campus and has not once even felt marginally compelled to participate in any charismatic flailing about. It has not even been one part of her experience. That is the truth. Perhaps you and others who mock that university might make better use of your sarcasm and derision by directing it towards the long list of schools that claim to be Catholic but are not.
JTLiuzza,Please be specific, or knock it off with the accusations. I stand by all my comments and all my actions. Bravo for your daughter, but I don't see the relevance.
Thank you all for your very interesting and thoughtful comments. I do agree that Vatican II was controversial perhaps because the changes it made were not interpreted correctly. Pope John Paul II seemed to advocate it but Pope Benedict XVI seemed to reign in some of the excessive abuses of it. We will see how our new Pope will take us forward. By all accounts so far, he seems to want to take us back to the basics. Maybe we are going back to our early years to rekindle the spark of Christ's salvific message for all humankind and that's a good thing.
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