Rorate Caeli

And the November 3 Traditional Latin Mass in St. Peter's will be offered by...


53 comments:

  1. Loyolakiper6:53 PM

    Did someone really think the the Holy Father would have the backbone to say the Mass of the Ages? Please the best that we get is another telling us that hs says it privately. The Pope himself cannot even say that himself...



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  2. Francis7:15 PM

    Yes, there is no surprise that the Holy Father isn't celebrating this Mass. Yet, as we all know, he has no problem having ecumenical "prayer services" with members of heretical sects and false religions, and modernist and relativist "dialogue" with heathens.
    Pray for the Holy Father.

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  3. Ferraiuolo7:16 PM

    Martin Mosebach stated once that John Paul II celebrated the Old Rite on several occasions privately. And Bishop Fellay also said of someone in the Curia who reported to His Excellency about the current Holy Father saying the Tridentine Mass on several occasions privately as well.

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  4. "Martin Mosebach stated once that John Paul II celebrated the Old Rite on several occasions privately. And Bishop Fellay also said of someone in the Curia who reported to His Excellency about the current Holy Father saying the Tridentine Mass on several occasions privately as well."

    Unfortunately only hearsay.

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  5. Anonymous7:54 PM

    I'll say it again.


    The year before Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, Alice von Hildebrand had a private audience with the Holy Father. There, face to face, she urged him to free the Traditional Mass, and pressed him as to when he would do it. He answered, and the exchange, some months later, leaked out.

    The same needs to be done regarding his celebration of the EF. Would some brave soul with credentials, or even a humble priest, have the temerity to shake the Holy Father's hand at some Wednesday audience when he's receiving books and teddy bears, and ask him, "Holy Father, how long?"

    Do we have to send Alice back?

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  6. Well, the Prefect of Divine Worship is number 2 in the Church in these matters, so that's not negligible ....

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  7. Jason C.8:14 PM

    Well, the Prefect of Divine Worship is number 2 in the Church in these matters, so that's not negligible ....

    Seriously, what's wrong with you guys? We were all holding a distant hope for the Holy Father, of course--but moaning that all we got was some spare from the College of Cardinals?

    Just pray this one's not hidden away behind thick, black curtains in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel, and that it's at the high altar. Baby steps!

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  8. Why would His Holiness offer the Traditional Roman Mass when he made clear the following:

    1. We should not expect the Traditional Roman Mass to be offered very often throughout the Church. (Summorum Pontificum)

    2. (From the Vatican's Web site: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080912_francia-interview_en.html)

    His Holiness declared that Summorum Pontificum was "merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy.

    "They form a small group...there is no opposition between the liturgy renewed by the Second Vatican Council and this liturgy."

    Various conservatives have claimed that His Holiness positioned Summmorum Pontificum as The
    Great Sign that he will utlize the Traditional Roman Mass as the centerpiece of the Pope's supposed "Marshall Plan" to renew liturgy and Catholic identity throughout the Church — at least the Latin Church.

    3. His Holiness, as Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, said the following:

    "An average Christian without specialist liturgical formation would find it difficult to distinguish between a Mass sung in Latin according to the old Missal and a sung Latin Mass according to the new Missal."

    Pope Benedict XVI/Cardinal Ratzinger has made it very clear that he does not view the Traditional Roman Mass as superior to the "renewed liturgy."

    He has insisted that the Traditional Roman Mass will not be offered frequently throughout the Church as few Catholics are attached to and interested in said Mass.

    Therefore, why would anybody expect His Holiness to offer the Traditional Roman Mass publicly?

    Tom

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  9. Bob F.8:55 PM

    The head of the Vatican Dicastery with oversight responsibilities for the liturgy is publicly offering a mass in the extraordinary form at the Vatican.

    I guess we should complain about this.

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  10. Anonymous8:56 PM

    Well, that didn't take long: complaints, hearsay, and the general silliness of this blog mixed with "nah, nah, he hasn't burnt the LCWR at the stake so I can do and say whatever I want," which is roughly the level of discourse I expect from a four year old. Hard to imagine why there are priests and bishops who would simply prefer not to be bothered by traditinalists.


    Alison

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  11. "Holy Father, how long?"

    His Holiness, who issued Summorum Pontificum, has not offered the Traditional Roman Mass.

    Your question has been answered.

    But the important question is why would you expect His Holiness to offer the Traditional Roman Mass?

    Why do you believe that, given his remarks (including those as Cardinal Ratzinger) in regard to the Traditional Roman Mass, His Holiness has any desire to offer said Mass?

    Tom

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  12. Alison said:

    "Hard to imagine why there are priests and bishops who would simply prefer not to be bothered by traditinalists."

    ...or Truth --

    UPON THIS ROCK

    Weary, weary,
    On this earth,
    Shielding souls
    Beyond their worth.

    Few are grateful,
    Some regress,
    Others proud,
    They won't confess,

    When the waves
    Break on the shore
    Warning them
    What is before.

    Established
    You stand on this rock
    Gainst the gales
    'Fore those who mock

    Facing squalls
    They cannot see
    But all behold
    Your bended knee.

    Few will follow,
    Some deny,
    Oblivious
    They won't comply.

    Then a blue moon,
    Saffron sun,
    Come together
    Almost one.

    Fingers blessed
    With Holy Oil
    You lift the Light…
    Sun moon recoil.

    Blinding many
    Opening eyes
    Contradiction
    Most despise.

    But on this rock
    Eroded-rife
    You stand your ground
    Opposing strife.

    Between the storms
    And sheep you block
    The tempest winds
    That hurt the flock.

    With outstretched arms
    The daily crux
    You nail the Truth
    So not in flux

    Never will lie
    Only can free
    Upon this rock
    Catholicity.

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  13. Spero9:30 PM

    A better question will be "How long until the Vatican website will post Summorum Pontificum in languages other than Latin and Hungarian?"

    P.S. I personally asked someone who has worked with Pope Benedict for years if he says the Traditional Mass privately and was was told that he almost surely does not.

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  14. NIANTIC9:37 PM

    When it comes to the Official (Vll) Church, we should be very grateful and happy when the Traditional Mass is offered, whether by a priest, bishop or cardinal. Be grateful and happy that the Holy Father at least "liberated" the True Mass from its unlawful and unjust imprisonment. Be grateful and happy for the many Traditional priests who regularly offer the Mass. Pray that more and more will have the courage and desire to do so. Pray for a continued growth of the SSPX, FSSP et all. Just be grateful and do not be negative. Truth and beauty and holiness will win out. In the intermediate or in the long run Tradition will be victorious because God is all powerful, not puny little Vll Man.

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  15. Romanitas9:45 PM

    With the exception of Tom's comments, I agree with what everyone here has said.

    It's a pretty perverse world when the Pope calls use of the Mass "an act of tolerance." How many times during Papal liturgies have there been guitars, dancers, altar girls, and communion in the hand since His Holiness assumed office? More often than there has been the Iudica me psalm or the last Gospel....

    Still, let us lay aside our frustrations and pray for the Holy Father. He needs it.

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  16. I am very grateful for the holy father for the motu propio. I have lived my whole life going to novus ordo masses. Thanks to summorum, I have found a parish 45 min away from home(that i'm contimplating moving closer too) that offers a solemn high mass every sunday and on holidays, by wonderful traditional priests. They even offer the n.o ad orientem. It will be the new generation of priests and laity that will help bring back the latin mass.

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  17. Timander10:35 PM

    The Holy Father has never celebrated the TLM in public. And after the anticipated rejection and reintroduced excommunication of the SSPX, any such celebration would seem un-timely?

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  18. Johannes de Silentio11:47 PM

    Oh shoot, I saw the picture and nearly gasped until I noticed Cardinal Llovera's name.

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  19. This is absolutely ridiculous. Fellow commentators, step back for a second.

    YOU ARE COMPLAINING THAT THE PREFECT OF THE CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP IS TO CELEBRATE A SOLEMN PONTIFICAL HIGH MASS IN ST. PETER'S BASILICA.

    (Yes, I do think that the voice-raising and the bolding are both proper here.)

    *sigh*

    If anybody in this combox is so distraught that said person has decided not to go on the pilgrimage after all, send me your money; someone else will go in your stead.

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  20. Lautensack12:41 AM

    As a Cardinal, the Holy Father at least once pontificated in the Old Rite.

    It would certainly be a nice gesture if he used the 'Extraordinary Form' in public (or at least attended publicly an Old-Rite Mass), but I am not sure if this would really change very much. The statistic of ordinations and seminarians shows quite clearly that in a few years the 'trads' will form a sizeable minority at least in Europe and North America, and that it will be very difficult to ignore or belittle them.

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  21. Anonymous12:46 AM

    This is basic common sense. No one can really expect bishops to take summorum seriusly when the pope who wrote it does nothing himself to publicly support it.

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  22. Sick of it!

    Cannot even fathom how the Holy Father refuses to offer this Mass.

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  23. Rumsey1:42 AM

    B16 offered the TLM for the FSSP in 1990, there are plenty of pictures on the net.

    What he does in private is unknown.

    He is old. He is NOT a traditionalist.
    He was a progressive peritus at V2 even if he is more
    conservative now. He has dinner with Hans Kung and does not excommunicate him as he did to Archbishop LeFebvre together with JPII.
    He upholds V2 and all its ways: look at "ecumenism" and religious tolerance for example. Look at his final written communication to Bishop Fellay after all the to and fro of the talks with SSPX via the curial middle men.

    SP and UE have no teeth and are widely ignored/loathed amongst priests and bishops.

    He is not going to create controversy/attract attention by endorsing the TLM by celebrating it. This will not happen.
    We will have to wait and see how the Mass goes in November. At least we can be sure there can be no surprise guest concelebration!/

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  24. @ Loyolakiper:

    May I suggest you have more charity when speaking about our Holy Father, he does indeed have a "backbone," we cannot fathom what a heavy burden is placed upon his shoulders, as the Vicar of Christ. God bless!

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  25. Ted Maysfield2:49 AM

    In general these comments are astute. I am old enough to remember that whenever Pope Paul VI was guilty of some radical innovation people circulated tales of the “pope is being held a prisoner” or, “it is the pope’s double that is talking.”

    At last in 2012 Catholics have grown beyond that naiveté and self-delusion. Pope Benedict XVI does not say the Tridentine Mass in public: we must deal with that bald fact in all its multi-faceted implications.

    In my opinion, in Benedict XVI we are dealing with a true Victorian liberal: this pope is willing to grant certain latitude and freedom to those he disagrees with, even when they are traditional or conservative. But he himself is the pope of the Second Vatican Council and the Mass of Paul VI, without doubt, as his hand-written letter to Bishop Fellay, reported here in Rorate Coeli, demonstrates amply.

    We need to have faith that a pope of the Fourth Lateran Council and the Mass of Pope Pius V will someday appear on the horizon, after Pope Benedict has lived a long pontificate. But we should prepare for another sort of pope, post-Benedict, one like Paul VI, who, as the late Thomas Molnar noted in New Oxford Review, had grace and mercy for Leftist dissidents, but tyranny and repression for those who represented the Church as it had been prior to the pontificate of Paul for hundreds and hundreds of years. Such are the ways of revolutionaries.

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  26. Ora et Labora3:11 AM

    "Yes, there is no surprise that the Holy Father isn't celebrating this Mass. Yet, as we all know, he has no problem having ecumenical "prayer services" with members of heretical sects and false religions, and modernist and relativist "dialogue" with heathens.
    Pray for the Holy Father."

    FRANCIS THIS TIME I WILL AGREE WITH YOU, WELL SAID!!!

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  27. Loyolakiper said, "Did someone really think the the Holy Father would have the backbone to say the Mass of the Ages? Please the best that we get is another telling us that he says it privately. The Pope himself cannot even say that himself..."

    Ted Maysfield said, "Pope Benedict XVI does not say the Tridentine Mass in public. We must deal with that bald fact in all its multi-faceted implications. "

    Ferraiuolo said, "Martin Mosebach stated once that John Paul II celebrated the Old Rite on several occasions privately. And Bishop Fellay also said of someone in the Curia who reported to His Excellency about the current Holy Father saying the Tridentine Mass on several occasions privately as well. "

    It all comes down to this. The Holy Father doesn't believe in the Tridentine Mass any more than +Fellay believes in the Novus Ordo. Whether the Holy Father celebrates the EF in private is meaningless. How would it be if I practiced the Faith in private but put on a different face in public? What would that say? As Loyolakiper said, the Holy Father himself can't/won't clarify whether he actually says the Tridentine Mass in private says a lot on its own.

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  28. Jason C. said, "Just pray this one's not hidden away behind thick, black curtains in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel, and that it's at the high altar. Baby steps!"

    As I understand it, only the Holy Father says Mass at the High Altar or his designate for Papal events, not just any Cardinal because he wants to say Mass there. More than likely the Altar of The Chair is where the Tridentine Mass will be said for the Year of Faith.

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  29. Gratias6:58 AM

    Wife and I will be in attendance November 3rd. Very pleased to be at the Altar of the Chair of St. Peter with Cardinal Cañizares officiating. Will let you know how it goes.

    Google " Cardinal Ratzinger pontifical mass Weimar " and you will see that God's Rottweiler has been our best defender, much as Cardinal Burke is now.


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  30. Gustaf af Donner, Helsingfors7:17 AM

    After Archbishop Muller's recent clarification what actually happened during the talks between the pontificate and the SSPX, I would be most surprised should Pope Benedict XVI ever celebrate the extraordinary rite in public.

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  31. If my post offended certain folks, please note that Pope Benedict XVI, not I, described Summorum Pontificum as "merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy.

    "They form a small group..."

    Those statements from Pope Benedict XVI are found on the Vatican's Web site.

    If you are upset that Summorum Pontificum is "merely an act of tolerance...", than you are upset with Pope Benedict XVI as it is he, not I, who uttered that statement.

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080912_francia-interview_en.html

    Tom

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  32. Timander said..."The Holy Father has never celebrated the TLM in public. And after the anticipated rejection and reintroduced excommunication of the SSPX, any such celebration would seem un-timely?"

    Why? The Society does not have a monopoly upon the Traditional Roman Mass.

    Tom


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  33. Don said..."Cannot even fathom how the Holy Father refuses to offer this Mass."

    Why?

    His Holiness has made clear his attitude toward the Traditional Roman Mass.

    He declared that he and the Church are moving forward with the Novus Ordo as the primary Mass of the Latin Church.

    His Holiness described Summorum Pontificum as "merely an act of tolerance with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy. They form a small group..."

    That declaration is found upon the Vatican's official Web site.

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080912_francia-interview_en.html

    INTERVIEW OF THE HOLY FATHER BENEDICT XVI
    DURING THE FLIGHT TO FRANCE

    Friday, 12 September 2008

    Question: What do you say to those who, in France, fear that the "Motu proprio' Summorum Pontificum signals a step backwards from the great insights of the Second Vatican Council? How can you reassure them?

    Benedict XVI: Their fear is unfounded, for this "Motu Proprio' is merely an act of tolerance, with a pastoral aim, for those people who were brought up with this liturgy, who love it, are familiar with it and want to live with this liturgy.

    "They form a small group..."

    Tom

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    Replies
    1. The holy father also said that he desires that seminaries teach the latin mass, and that every parish offer both forms.

      Delete
  34. My complaint would be that the picture's a bit misleading, since on first-glance it does give the impression the Holy Father will be celebrating (and it seems I'm not the only one who was confused.) Am I pleased as punch that the next most important man who COULD offer the TLM after the Pope is doing so? Sure! Now we just need to reinstate the Papal Court (and can we get the tiara back while we're at it?)

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  35. Fr William R. Young11:44 AM

    We really cannot expect the Pope to celebrate until there is a "new" edition of the Usus Antiquior Missal, appropriately and conservatively updated to include new prefaces, saints, etc., and removing the necessity for the celebrant to double at the altar what the choir sings. There will also be the possibility to restore to the officially allowed book some of those things dropped in 1962. As people will say, we must be patient.

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  36. Michael Hunnerstad1:48 PM

    Pope Benedict XVI may never celebrate the traditional latin rite in public. But, we shall never forget that he lifted the sanctions against rite. He should be remembered as one of few popes who had a sincere interest in liturgy. And we should all pray for his hard work and success. Most likely, Pope Benedict's successor wont be as friendly towards the traditionalists. So, one day we might find ourself in a posision where this pontificate will be greatly missed.

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  37. Marvindante332:28 PM

    I'll only add this comment (which, like as not, will be ignored by all and sundry): This is a step forward! Can anyone here cite a time after the imposition of the Novus Ordo when a Solemn High Pontifical Mass was publically offered at St. Peter's? By a high-ranking cardinal, no less? We're all a bit disappointed that the celebrant is not the Holy Father; but let's not miss the forest for the trees. This is a beautiful thing!

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  38. Torkay3:26 PM

    This Pope will only makes gestures and open doors. He will not walk through them himself. Similarly, he demolished the Fatima "Party Line" in 2010, yet he does nothing about the Consecration of Russia. The doors are opened, but others will have to walk through them. Hopefully, the next Pope will be among them...

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  39. removing the necessity for the celebrant to double at the altar what the choir sings.

    How is it a bad thing for the priest to pray the Mass?

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  40. Matt said: "How would it be if I practiced the Faith in private but put on a different face in public? What would that say?" - Apparently that's what the N.O. is all about. Not only for Joe Biden, but Paul Ryan, Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Scalia as well who recently boasted: “I try mightily to prevent my religious views or my political views or my philosophical views from affecting my interpretation of the laws, which is what my job is about,” he stated. “They can make me leave the bench if I find that I’m enmeshed in an immoral operation, but the only one of my religious views that has anything to do with my job as a judge is the seventh commandment – thou shalt not lie. I try to observe that faithfully, but other than that I don’t think any of my religious views have anything to do with how I do my job as a judge.”

    To this boast he added: “And indeed, there are anti-abortion people (not GODLY people) who think that the Constitution requires a state to prohibit abortion. They say that the equal protection clause requires that you treat a helpless human being that’s still in the womb the way you treat other human beings. I think that’s wrong,” Scalia further explained in a 2008 60 Minutes interview. “I think when the Constitution says that persons are entitled to equal protection of the laws, I think it clearly means walking-around persons.”

    http://christiannews.net/2012/10/06/u-s-justice-scalia-reiterates-opposition-to-homosexuality-favors-abortion-restrictions-only/#comment-2945

    So, according to Scalia who went to Georgetown Undergrad, Washington, Madison, Jefferson & Hamilton intended to limit due process to "WALKING AROUND PERSONS" - and Scalia's VCII religious beliefs don't obligate him (anymore than they obligate Biden, Cuomo, Pelosi, Ratzinger) to protect the "helpless" unborn from abortion OR the "helpless" sick, elderly and handicapped from DEATH PANELS - in fact he tries mightily to not let his religious views (God's Law) get in the way of interpreting STATE law -- but hey just let the state make Catholic hospitals administer contraception and we're all supposed to engage in civil disobedience and go to jail - while the bishops live it up in Rome and we drown any hope of heaven in the blood of 50 million dead babies.

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  41. Anonymous5:32 PM

    Have we forgotten that Cardinal Llovera was known in Spain before reassignment to Rome as the "Little Ratzinger" ? Maybe next time we will get the "Big Ratzinger" ?

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  42. Romulus5:42 PM

    Do the complainers here imagine these annual celebrations in the Vatican Basilica, presided over by high curial officials happen spontaneously, or that the distinguished venue and prelates come to be available because of the irresistible justice of their cause?

    Can anyone suppose or even pretend that such things are not indicative of the Holy Father's personal encouragement and close interest?

    In three months, Benedict XVI will be the fourth-oldest pope ever. His stamina is impressive but not unlimited. Did Leo XIII, clement XII, or Clement X celebrate full-bore papal Masses at the High Altar at that age? Who is so heartless and foolhardy to impose that monumental burden on the Holy Father?

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  43. cyrillist8:43 PM

    "Who is so heartless and foolhardy to impose that monumental burden on the Holy Father?"

    Hey, I'd settle for a Low TLM at a side altar, with one server, unannounced! Kind of like Joshua Bell busking in the subway that one time... ;-)

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  44. Romulus said:

    "Who is so heartless and foolhardy to impose that monumental burden on the Holy Father?"

    Ummmmm...God?

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  45. "This is basic common sense. No one can really expect bishops to take summorum seriusly when the pope who wrote it does nothing himself to publicly support it."

    Just as well then (thank God) there aren't petitions for B16 to say and pilgrimages to Rome for the Neo-Cat Mass.

    At least Cardinal Llovera of the CDW isn't saying a Neo-Cat Mass in St Peter's Basilica.

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  46. Matamoros11:05 PM

    I'm very much for the SSPX yet it's a bit unrealistic to expect the Pope to feel about the old Mass the way we do. I just hope that Cardinal Canizares Lloveras has become a more convinced supporter of the Tridentine Mass than he was when he was bishop of Granada. I participated with a group of faithful back then to have the Mass permitted under the Motu Proprio. We received no reply whatsoever to several attempts. The Pope has appointed him to the Ecclesia Dei Commission and made it his business to be concerned about the old liturgy. Let's hope he's grown into the job with conviction. This is the kind of thing that makes the SSPX different and irreplaceable. Conviction!

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  47. Thanks Tom for your contribution to my complaint.

    I would like to add:
    Thank you Pope Benedict XVI for giving us 2 documents (so far) to preserve the TLM .Thanks again for arming Lay people and our Good Holy Priests with documents to protect and preserve the Mass of all times against the enemies of the Church that desire the Death of this Holy and Sacred Rite.

    I just Pray/Desire/Hope for :The Pope of the Holy Catholic Church to offer this Holy Mass of our Forefathers, AS POPE
    He is the Pope. The Mass is Holy not a Scandal. It is Holy it is Catholic.


    I am sick in my heart; Watching these wolves within the Church trying to kill this Holy Mass!

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  48. I promote a supplica to the Holy Father celebrate a TLM. It has 2077 supporters in 3 months. Please, spread the word.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/to-
    the-holy-father-pope-benedict-xvi-petition-supplica-to-celebrate-a-public-mass-according-with-the-1962-missal

    thanks, Demasi

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  49. I promote a Supplica to the HOly Father celebrate a TLM. It has 2077 signatures in 3 months. Please, spread the word.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/to-the-holy-father-pope-benedict-xvi-petition-supplica-to-celebrate-a-public-mass-according-with-the-1962-missal

    Thanks, Demasi

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  50. Let's be fair here, folks: five years ago, this event would have been highly improbable; ten years ago, it would have been unthinkable. And twenty five years ago...

    It's progress.

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  51. Kathleen10:47 AM

    Long-Skirts,
    That was one of your best. Please do gather your work together.

    As far as Our Holy Father and the Mass of the Ages...

    His aesthetic aversion to the cringe inducing banalities thickly surrounding the N.O., and his taste for the majestic beauty surrounding the Mass of the Ages is turning out to be a very slim entry point for conversion.

    But, it is still an entry point.

    And it's not the only one.

    We must rededicate ourselves to prayer and sacrifice.

    And also pray that those that love Our Holy Father use his ear for the good whenever possible.

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  52. raphaela8:47 PM

    In July 2000 at Fontgombault, Cardinal ratzinger, when referring to those attached to the TLM stated that it was his entiment also.
    The Motu Proprio was delayed for months because of opposition from German and French Bishops. (see archive of this blog for correspondence from these Bishops) The Pope was faced with yet another split in the Church.
    The softened tone with which he speaks of the Novus Ordo in the Motu Proprio compared with what he wrote in his books e.b. Milestones, Salt Of The Earth and the preface for Mons Klaus Gamber's book. he obviously had a lot of pressure put on him by these Bishops with whom he met before the eventual prommulgation of the Motu Proprio. Pretty obvious that the assurance that he wouldn't offer the TLM publicly was one of the conditions they imposed on the Pope. Bishop Fellay himself in a lecture on youtube laments the actual power the Holy Father has. It was brave of him to carry on with the Motu Proprio with considerable opposition from probably the majority of the hierarchy. God bless our Pope.

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