Rorate Caeli

So, were Vaticanists right?

Well, most were not. But a few Italian Vaticanists in the past few days did mention Bergoglio, and almost always quoted words from an unnamed Cardinal who took part also in the 2005 Conclave:

"'Four years of Bergoglio would be enough to change things.'" (Andrea Tornielli, La Stampa, March 2, 2013)

It was the first time the name of Bergoglio seriously appeared as a contender in this conclave. Who was the unnamed Cardinal? Was it one of the Sodano team proudly appearing in the central loggia today: Cardinal Re, Cardinal Sandri, Cardinal Hummes?

What kind of change? We will see. But, be prepared: things will change. Nothing is off the table.

34 comments:

Francis in Ma said...

With liberal and modernist Bergoglio as head of the Catholic Church dark days are ahead for Catholic tradition barring a miracle from Heaven. IMHO the freemasons, the modernists, the progressives and the world are all smiling. Our Lady of Fatima pray for us.

gm said...

Any idea what type of change was Andrea Tornielli anticipating?

Edward said...

What is left to change the whole patrimony of the church has already been dumped

Luka said...

Maybe he will surprise us all and consecrate Russia.

Clario said...

All hopes shouldn't be placed in any one pope, thus any one pope shouldn't be cause either for rejoicing or despair. Even if he turns out to be a good pope, the wreckage of the Hippie Council, aka the Judas Council, aka the Second Vatican Council will take generations to clean up.

New Catholic said...

Well, there can always be a Vatican III, right Clario?...

Clario said...

Vatican III? Please no!!!

Shane said...

Pope Francis is the first pope to have been ordained a priest after the Second Vatican Council; Pope Benedict XVI will therefore be the last pope who had been a priest in the pre-conciliar era and was connected with the Council. Seems like a sad landmark in the history of the Church.

Claudius said...

I love this election very much. Indeed: Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.

Anonymous said...

Lord we give Thee thanks for what Thou givest and for what Thou takest away, Thy will be done. -Pope St Pius X

rjh

invocante said...

As Shane says we now have a 100% Vatican 2 priest as Pope. A Pope who refused to wear the Mozetta even once and who kept wearing his own pectoral cross. I fear a war against tradition and I think a Third Vatican Council just became a real possibility so they can approve woman priests and all the other reforms dear to the liberals. So much for the theory that Benedict had filled the College with conservatives!

Mary Jean said...

Pope Francis is great! He's a man filled with the Spirit and has a heart open to those of other faiths; especially, as John Paul The Great used to affectionately term them, our elder brothers in the faith. Look he celebrates Hanukkah!

http://www.israelunseen.com/new-pope-jorge-bergoglio-celebrated-hannukah-as-cardinal-of-buenos-aires/#.UUEIp5G9KK0

Paulo Ghetti Frade said...

I just hope his name was not based on the romance "Habemus Papam, Francesco I" by Rev. Paolo Farinella, who lives and breathes Liberation Theology.

The choice of the name is exactly as described in the book. Also, the vestments used in the first urbi et orbi are strikingly similar to the ones described in the book.

Let us pray!

Peter said...

This blog is being invaded by those schismatics known as "Orthodox." A vigorous response to their seductive errors is needed.

Shane said...

"The Irish may have brought Guiness to America but they also brought a lot of low church peasant mentality which has little theological sophistication."

Yes, those damn Irish are responsible for all the American Church's problems. Thankfully of course the Church in Latin American and continental Europe is in a truly glorious state.

Bill McEnaney said...

Two videos that tell me that the Vatican-II-related revolution will last. Notice the balloons at a folk Novus Ordo and the ecumenical event with the Jews.

http://www.oltyn.org/

Plato said...

I am now convinced Weigel is right and both the progressive and traditionalists are problems in the Catholic Church. I love the Latin Mass, but you people are WAY extreme, and you make assertions without any facts to back them. All of you would have considered St. Francis or St. John Bosco "moderates" or "progressives." If your assertions are correct, then why do the Jesuits themselves despise Pope Francis? And for the record, thank God for Vatican II!! Sorry folks, but it is no longer the 16th century! Doctrine never changes but times do, and you need to engage the current culture. You can engage the modern world without compromising the truth. Incidentally, this comment comes from a Latin Mass loving Catholic who agrees with Catholic doctrine 150 percent! However, to believe your brand of spirituality is simply the only valid and legitimate one is arrogant, and quite frankly, not orthodox itself!

Watcher said...

Anonymous said...

So many have said that Pope Francis is more than likely God's punishment to the world and in particular the Church for Her sins. Yet I have not seen one person hold their self accountable for their part in the matter. Where is your personal sanctity that will draw God's blessings on our Bishops, Priests, and in particular our new Pope? Everyone, traditionalists in particular, want to complain and despair, and yet none are resolved to do the work necessary to restore tradition--personal holiness. God has given us grace in abundance, in particular Benedict's Pontificate, and Summorum Pontificum, and yet how few have been willing to atone for the sins of their brethren, and even fewer have been willing to crucify themselves to the Cross of Our Lord to bring His grace to our Prelates. With the graces given, we should all be Saints on the level of the Martyrs of old. And yet look at us. If you are not sanctifying yourself in God's love and grace, and amending your life, you are the reason someone with the past liberality of Francis was elected. Personal holiness is the answer to the situation of today. If you are not willing to truly live the life of a Christian, and truly follow Christ in deed, then you are the problem along with the liberals attempting to destroy tradition.
-------------------------------

Dear Anonymous,

For our own sakes, we should all strive for personal sanctity in order that we may attain Heaven. However, the Catholic Church is a top down Church, not a bottom up Church. The restoration of the Church must come from the Pope, bishops, and priests. Good and Holy priests make good and Holy faithful. Unholy, liberal priests give us unholy, liberal faithful. If we want the Church to be restored, our only recourse is through prayer for the Pope, bishops, and priests. We should do all in our power to make others aware of how bad things are and get them to pray to. We need EVERYONE to pray. That is the only way. But make no mistake about it, it is the Pope, bishops, and priests who will need to become Holy in order for the Church to be restored.

Joseph said...

Watcher,

There is considerable irony in your posting this on the day a Pope took the name Francis, who as a lowly layman did more to rebuild the Church than the hierarchy. And he is but one example.

Saints restore the Church, not bureaucrats. And we are all called to be saints, whatever our vocation in life.

Johannes de Silentio said...

I wonder what we are to make of the purported Scherer candidacy. Did the Curia, noticing perhaps a lack of charisma, bail on him? Did the Curia use him as a stalking-horse while Bergoglio was their true choice all along? Or, to employ Occam's razor, does the media simply not have a clue as to what it is talking about?

Peccantem me quotidie said...

"The Warning Second Coming" is not approved, and is likely false (whether through human cynicism or Satanic intervention it is impossible to say).

Here is a useful link, debunking that site: http://warningsecondcoming.blogspot.co.uk/

Cathy said...

Will the Curia try to control Pope Francis?


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2993379/posts

poeta said...

Michael Brendan Dougherty on "Why Pope Francis May Be a Catholic Nightmare": http://tinyurl.com/cyock2w

Matt said...

Paulo Ghetti Frade said, I just hope his name was not based on the romance "Habemus Papam, Francesco I" by Rev. Paolo Farinella, who lives and breathes Liberation Theology. The choice of the name is exactly as described in the book. Also, the vestments used in the first urbi et orbi are strikingly similar to the ones described in the book."

Well, Paulo, whether what you described above can be an amalgam of one entire coincidence is possible but it is perhaps to be doubted. One coincidence can and is more than likely that, a coincidence. Two or more is not a coincidence but a pattern of intent.

Matt said...

Cathy asked, "Will the Curia try to control Pope Francis?"

Well, Cathy. I believe since now they have their kind of man in place, the Curia will happily acceed to his wishes.

Gratias said...

We will miss Benedict XVI dearly. He unfortunately went off with a bang. I call this event 10 years lost to the Church because of a mistaken judgement. We should all try to die with our boots on, even if most of us will fail.

authoressaurus said...

What are we to make of this kind of report, surfacing so soon into the pontificate? Is it an untruth? Is there any truth in it? The fact that it exists, and that others intend to write on it, makes this choice by the curialists rather worrying.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/345612#tab=comments&sc=

Jorge said...

Kyrie eleison.

adulescens said...

Eight years forward - fifty years back.

@ Peter - yes. That is what is needed. A vigorous prosecution of orthodoxy within the Church. Because this is what what the bishops ought to be doing.

Honestly. The very men you adhere to so stupidly do not even believe in your conception of their office. You have the modus operandi inverted. Orthodoxy comes before the office like the Creed before Baptism or vows before Orders. And when a bishop of Rome says something that contradicts all of the prior bishops of Rome bar three, and those ones that he is contradicting are also invested with your [mis]conception of their office: here your head should explode if you had the capability to reason. Fortunately and unhappily you apparently don't.

To hold fast to what we have received from Christ through the apostles and fathers and in the deposit of Faith, without rending the peace of the Church - this is what we not only ought, but must do. No bishop of Rome can change that. And we harm only ourselves by pretending some have not tried and that this new one might as well.

Common Sense said...

Look Plato, who in the right mind doesn't want conditions, where lives of people are better in every aspect?I'm sure you desire rule of law, crime free envirement,country free from criminal banksters and proper catholic goverment for the interest of the society and vibrant, well respected and loved catholic church. There were such periods in history. "Prepare for war, if you want peace", ancient Romans used to say.What's extreme about rejecting ideas detrimental to the wellfare of spiritual and temporal aspects of life? Our existence is a constant battle and you've got to be in it to win it.If you aren't prepared for fight, than you aren't ready for the victory and you can not be entitled the spoils, which others fought for.

TradDadof4 said...

The picture I am getting is that Bergoglio will come in for 4 years as something of a financial/administrative expert. He will fix some financial or disciplinary problem in the high echelons of the church (of which we may not be completely aware) and then resign in four years like an American President. He will leave liturgical and doctrinal matters ALONE since they are out of his strike zone. The *next* Pope, then, will pick up the ball with the SSPX, Ecclesia Dei, hermeneutics of Vatican II, etc.

I hope this is not just wishful thinking. Because as a traditionalist, ... this is clearly not our Pope.

Ralph Roister-Doister said...

Over on Pertinacious Papist there is a review of Roberto de Mattei's new book on V2. In that book, he quotes at length from E E Y Hales concerning another pope who was greatly concerning with the poor:

"'John [XXIII] was as anxious as any previous pope to reaffirm some continuity in papal teaching; but in fact, in his brief reign, he changed both its spirit and its content.… The novelty of Pope John consisted in his embracing, with enthusiasm, novel ideas about world unity, colonialism, aid to underdeveloped countries, social security, and the rest, which belonged mainly to such recent times as the period since the Second World War; it consisted in his accepting these new ideas, saying they were good, and urging the world to pursue them.”

The 1961 encyclical Mater et Magistra, “On Christianity and Social Progress,” brings Catholic social teaching “right into the world of the Welfare State,” according to Hales. “The Pope…is embracing what many would call socialism, and he is acknowledging that a new concept of the duties of the State is involved.”

Another characteristic of the Roncalli papacy identified by Hales is its “universal quality.” “Addressing himself to ‘all men of good will,’ he went out of his way to make friendly contact not only with the separated brethren but also with those who professed a philosophy hostile to Christianity.” The 1963 encyclical Pacem in Terris, “On Establishing Universal Peace,” transcends the interests of the Church, or even of Christendom, and “looks steadily at the world as a whole.” Pope John XXIII took his role as Universal Pastor literally: “He was not directly trying to get the world ‘back in’ [to the Church]. He was going out into the world, to help the world. … [H]e was thinking of all men as sons of God and therefore of himself as their spiritual father on earth.'”

The temptation to modernist one-worldism may also be afoot in the thinking of Pope Francis. I am not too familiar with Bergoglio, although I can see enough to be apprehensive. He may be a "conservative" [whatever that word means these days] in a part of the world where many of the most popular clerics have been "liberationists" -- not exactly balm of Gilead for folks like myself! Does anyone have any insights/information to share?

Athelstane said...

Hello Plato,

And for the record, thank God for Vatican II!!

Just out of curiosity, why do say this?

Peter said...

Notice that the schismatic "Orthodox" fiend adulescens changed my "Orthodox" to "orthodox." adulescens, your sleight of hand won't work here. We recognize that orthodoxy demands the rejection of the "Orthodox" "Church."