Rorate Caeli

The Paragon of True Humility

Monsignor Guido Marini, the papal master of ceremonies since 2007, needs our prayers.

Those who have appreciated the gradual return of visual beauty concerning the papacy know that Monsignor Marini had been Pope Benedict's right-hand man in this effort.  Marini, echoing Benedict, has clearly stated "it is in the liturgy that the renewal and reform of the Church begins."

He is now in a very difficult position, as evidenced this week with a multitude of abrupt simplifications.  The Associated Press, among other news outlets, observed this conflict during the liturgy yesterday featuring a portable versus populum table-altar in the Sistine Chapel:

At the start of the Mass, Francis exchanged words with Monsignor Guido Marini, the Vatican's master of liturgical ceremonies who under Benedict ushered in a far more traditional style of liturgy, heavy on Gregorian chant, Latin and the silk-brocaded vestments of the pre-Vatican II church.




Now comes word from French news agency I.MEDIA that guest liturgists will soon be on the way.

Pope Francis asked the Franciscans of the Italian shrine of La Verna, in Tuscany, to come assure the liturgical service of his installation Mass in the Vatican, on 19 March 2013, the community of this known place of Franciscan spirituality confirmed to I.MEDIA on 15 March.


Some of the beautiful vestments kept at that shrine were profiled by the New Liturgical Movement, a healthy sign, so it remains to be seen what the liturgical service from the Franciscans entails.  Perhaps they will bring the vestments for use by the new pope at the Vatican on Tuesday.

In the meantime, pray for the Church.  Pray for the Mass.  Pray for Pope Francis.  But also keep Monsignor Marini, the paragon of true humility, in your fervent prayers.

106 comments:

Mike said...


I will certainly pray for him. The dear man must be in a terribly difficult position.

I do hope and pray that our new Holy Father will listen to Marini as humbly as he seems to listen to everyone else.

Alan Aversa said...

Oremus pro eo.
Benedicat Deus eum.

sam said...

My mistake, I thought the table-altar was the credence table placed in the wrong spot.

Mr DG Fulton said...

Francis certainly does appear to be very willing to listen, at least to the Modernists.

As for listening to all voices within the Church, we can only pray.

Rick DeLano said...

Is Monsignor Guido Marini getting a taste of what lies in store for the rest of us?

Little signs, here and there, still early of course, but.....

His Holiness' name certainly does not begin with an "R" and end with an "anjith".

Pope Benedict's retirement is looking like a reversal of course, at least when it comes to papal liturgical practices.

Were I a prophet I would say that rough waters lie ahead for those Catholics deeply attached to the Traditional Mass.

In this case I hope I'm not a prophet.


Gratias said...

Seems Pope Francisco is eager to erase Benedict's teachings. When Benedict became Pope for one year he did not change much. This is the usage in Bavaria when an new Parish priest comes in. Good manners do not apply here.

Thank you Msgr. Guido Marini for your service to the Catholic Church. We have enjoyed Benedict's masses greatly.

Donnacha said...

I truly feel from Msgr. Marini. While always maintaining a professional appearance, he seemed almost a suffering soul: "Why did you not take me with you into retirement, Papa Ratzinger?" Aside from the obvious missing items we have come to expect/love, the BLACK TROUSERS, SHOES AND SOCKS stand out the most!

poeta said...

Msgr. Marini is still young. Even if he is forced out, we can hope he will return someday.

Jason C. said...

LOLOLOL, I can guarantee you those vestments aren't going to be worn by the Holy Father; they are way, way too awesome.

I pray that I am wrong. In fact, I will pray a Rosary tonight and remember this intention. What a signal to the Church this installation liturgy will be. Please, God, let it be dignified.

Ligusticus said...

W DON GUIDO!!

And please you all, look, given his cv, how a perfect Bishop may become soon...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_Marini

He has, for his relatively young age, a lot of experiences, and really, I think that as for science and wisdom and virtues, he would largely surpass most of the Signori Cardinali ho elected their peer who would have, just after election, humiliated ...coram populo Urbis et orbis this saintly, obedient, God-fearing, meek priest, true son of the same glorious Church of Genoa, the one if Cyrus, Jacopo and, yes, Siri.

poeta said...

The AP writer who says the crowd in St. Peter's Square "roared when his name was announced" must have a vastly different definition of "roar" from any I've ever heard of. They grew extremely quiet.

Prof. Basto said...

Mr. Wolfe,

Thank you for this post.

In another thread here in this blog I commented on the very day of the Pope's election: "Poor Mons. Marini".

He seemed very upset at the balcony, looking straight ahead.

Of course he was: even Popes John Paul I and John Paul II wore the red mozzetta and papal stole for the first blessing Urbi et Orbi, both Popes also posed for formal portraits with that dress, etc.

The Pope must have actively refused to wear the vestments pre-arranged by Marini. Perhaps Marini pointed out to the historical precedents, but to no avail.

Then the following day what ugly Mitre, what simple vestments, were used for the Mass in the Sistine Chapel.

Signs of a difficult path ahead.

***

I agree that all this change is not a result of humility. The Pope may be indeed humble but in other matters, not when it comes to liturgy.

When it comes to liturgy, to the rites and ceremonial of the Church, the humble attitude is to follow the traditional code, the prescribed rubrics or custom, even if that's not what you would like best.

To impose one's will, one's personal preference, even if one is the Pope, over the established ceremonial of the Church is not humble attitude by any means.

And the ceremonial of the Church prescribes that, when a solemn blessing is involved, Popes wear the mozzetta with the stole, and the pectoral cross hanging by a cord.

The red mozzetta dress of the Popes is to the fully red choral dress of the Cardinals and to the fully violet dress of Bishops as the plain white dress of the Popes is to the black cassock with red buttons and red fascia of Cardinals and to the black cassock with violet buttons and violet fascia of Bishops.

The first group is the group of dress one uses to assist at a liturgical function; the second group is the group of dress used for simple audiences, non liturgical activities, etc.

Gregorian Mass said...

I pray Marini stays on and can point out that Brown shoes or red don't make a difference. They are either donated or paid for. Red shoes are a symbol of the Pope, head of the Church. This analogy goes for all symbols of the Pope. It may not be upset over symbols some might say, but alas the reality is that it is upsetting. Pope Francis is calling attention to these things as a source of contention and confusion and it should not be. Where is the humility in apparent refusals to continue to use the symbols of a Pope? It is the jerking back and forth of these things that pains people. Even if it is not it comes off as prideful to start off from day 1 as abruptly changing, once again what Catholics and the world have once again become accustomed to. The symbolism of the office of the Pope is being used as a tool between Progressives and Conservatives to declare victory. The Pope shouldn't allow this. Well then, what is correct one might ask? Open a history book and look back at the Papacy and you will find your answer. Issues of Doctrine, Morals or Social Issues should not allowed to become manifest in the Symbols and Rituals of a Pope. This is a big mistake that is being tolerated and encouraged by Popes themselves. This can never be the right direction for any Church or Faith.

Prof. Basto said...

There is an anecdote according to which blessed John XXIII, another example of a truly humble man, hated the Sedia Gestatoria because he feared the height of it and he feared one abrupt movement or another that the chair did because it was being carried by men.

So, unlike Pius XII who made several gestures when in the sedia, waved to people, blessed, etc, Pope John adopted a more cautious attitude, remained still, etc.

Yet, Pope John used the Sedia even if he did not like it because he understood that it was his duty to do so, and that he was not to use his Papal powers to change the Public Ceremonial of the Church just because he did not like one aspect or another.

Andy Morgan said...

As an Anglican looking more deeply into Catholicism, I find this 'concern' over Pope Francis puzzling. In my reading of Catholicism, is it not regarded that the Holy Spirit is the one responsible for Pope Francis' election? Therefore is it not the duty of all in the Catholic Church to bow down to the work and choice of the HolY Spirit. The alternative (and from some of the comments) the Church has erred in it's choice of this Pope. Forgive my ignorance if I have misunderstood.

Kenneth J. Wolfe said...

Prof. Bastro -- it seems even the attire in the Sistine Chapel for cardinals was simplified this week:

"Today, the cardinals were advised to wear the black house cassock rather than the more formal red choir robes with white surplice."

http://usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2013/03/the-humble-pope.html

authoressaurus said...

This is not shaping up at all well, either in Rome or elsewhere. Just wait until the media starts digging into the moral state of the Buenos Aires diocese. The evening news in San Diego is already talking about how, "two days into the pontificate, the Catholic Church is already finding itself in the position of defending the record of its new pontiff."

GQ Rep said...

"Prof. Basto said...
There is an anecdote according to which blessed John XXIII, another example of a truly humble man, hated the Sedia Gestatoria because he feared the height of it and he feared one abrupt movement or another that the chair did because it was being carried by men.

So, unlike Pius XII who made several gestures when in the sedia, waved to people, blessed, etc, Pope John adopted a more cautious attitude, remained still, etc.

Yet, Pope John used the Sedia even if he did not like it because he understood that it was his duty to do so, and that he was not to use his Papal powers to change the Public Ceremonial of the Church just because he did not like one aspect or another."

Yes, I read this too. John XXIII had a fear of being pulled from the Sedia Gestatoria by over zealous pilgrims reaching for his hand.....and actually had a bad dream in which someone grabbed his hand and nearly pulled him and the chair over.

But I also read that the movement of the Sedia made John XXIII nauseous, which is the biggest reason why he hated it.

John Gerardi said...

One reason for hope:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_jp-ii_apc_19880628_pastor-bonus-index_en.html

John Paul II's Apostolic Constitution "Pastor Bonus" establishes that the Pope's master of liturgical ceremonies is appointed to a term of 5 years, as are the assistant MCs. Msgr. Marini was appointed to a second 5-year term by Pope Benedict in 2012. For Pope Francis to remove Msgr. Marini before 2017, he would have to take the fairly extraordinary step of altering or derogating from this law.

It is certainly possible for him to send Don Guido packing before 2017; I simply think it is unlikely.

I'm not saying that Don Guido does not need our prayers, but I think he has some time to work with Pope Francis, perhaps to bring him around to another way of thinking on some of these questions.

Adfero said...

Andy, the Holy Ghost doesn't choose the pope.

The Holy Ghost offers His guidance to the cardinal electors -- but nowhere does the church say they always accept that guidance. We're not papists believing every pope is fantastic just because he's pope. It's clear the electors in the past have ignored God's Will

He is the true pope, of course! But that doesn't mean he was the choice of God. No one knows.

Try to ignore the politics and just come home! God bless you.

Brad Wilson said...

Monsignor Marini for Pope!!

Even if he leaves now, his time will come again. He has supporters in high places (Benedict obviously (and his collaborators such as Abp Ganswein, Tettamanzi and Bertone, but also the more liturgical Ratzingerian cardinals and bishops will have noticed Mgr Marini's influence).

Even if he does go back to Genoa - it is by no means a bad diocese. He has Card. Bagnasco there who is also very influential.

I think also that many Cardinals didn't realise how unliturgical Pope Bergoglio was when they elected him. There were some bemused looks from the Cardinals when he couldn't even chant the Preface Dialogue.

justin said...

@John Geradi: Pastor Bonus doesn't mean that Mgr Marini cannot asked to be transferred to another department though.

Jordanes551 said...

As Adfero said, clearly the Holy Spirit does not choose the pope. We distinguish between God's active will and His permissive will, and it is impossible that a God who is all good could have chosen the notoriously wicked and debauched men who unworthily occupied the See of St. Peter. The Holy Spirit will prevent a bad pope from formally, bindingly misteaching the Universal Church in matters of faith and morals, but He will not prevent a pope from making imprudent decisions or from committing sins or violating divine, natural, or ecclesiastical laws.

Prof. Basto said...

Mr. Wolfe,

We've seen this humility before. It is the humility of the John Paul I kind; he who suppressed the Papal Coronation in favour of the disfigured rite of inauguration.

We've also seen this particular brand of humility in another recent Pope: Paul VI, the great simplifier of Papal and non-papal liturgy and ceremonial.

This Pope clearly wishes to impose on the public ceremonial of the Holy See and on papal liturgies his own personal preferences.

And as we can see from the USCCB media release you linked to, the Church is now selling this attitude to the media as positive, as a sign of a great humility, "the Humble Pope", so the Pope is being sold as likable precisely because of his rapid demolition of Vatican protocol.

The Italian newspaper Il fato quotidiano had this to say (emphasys mine):

"(...)
Più francescano del poverello di Assisi: nella Cappella Sistina, subito dopo la sua elezione, ha ricevuto l’atto di omaggio dei cardinali elettori rimanendo per tutto il tempo in piedi senza sedersi sul tronetto bianco; al collo ha voluto tenere la sua croce pettorale e non quella d’oro preparata per il nuovo Papa; dopo il saluto alla folla, Francesco è rientrato a Santa Marta nel pulmino insieme con gli altri cardinali e non ha voluto usare la macchina ufficiale targata SCV1; stamane, dopo il pellegrinaggio alla Basilica liberiana, Bergoglio è passato alla Casa del Clero, dove era ospite come cardinale durante il periodo delle congregazioni generali, ha preso le sue valigie e ha pagato la fattura come un semplice sacerdote.

Non è disponibile, il neo Pontefice argentino, a indossare i paramenti da “museo” utilizzati da Benedetto XVI e amati dal maestro delle celebrazioni liturgiche pontificie Guido Marini. Proprio con lui, confidano in Vaticano, ieri sera, prima della benedizione Urbi et Orbi, c’è stato un duro scontro. Francesco ha rifiutato di indossare la mozzetta rossa, la mezza mantella degli ecclesiastici che copre solo le spalle, di velluto rosso e bordata di ermellino. La stola rossa, invece, il neo Papa ha voluto adoperarla soltanto per la benedizione alla città di Roma e al mondo, ma poggiandosela sulle spalle e togliendosela da solo, sfilandola, in entrambi i casi, dalle mani del cerimoniere Marini.

Oggi con la Messa con i cardinali elettori nella Cappella Sistina c’è stata la prova del nove del rapporto di Papa Francesco con la liturgia e con monsignor Marini.
Il Pontefice argentino ha indossato paramenti moderni come Giovanni Paolo II e non quelli di Pio IX rispolverati da Benedetto XVI. Non ha ripreso la stupenda croce astile dello scultore napoletano Lello Scorzelli passata nelle mani di Paolo VI, Giovanni Paolo I e Giovanni Paolo II e poi riposta da Benedetto XVI. Ma non ha nemmeno usato quella di Pio IX adoperata per un certo periodo da Ratzinger. Segnali chiari dai quali si intuisce che lo spirito francescano incarnato da Bergoglio entrerà non solo visibilmente nella Curia romana e nei gesti dei primi giorni che tanto entusiasmo suscitano nei fedeli di tutto il mondo.
(...)"

Source: http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2013/03/14/papa-francesco-contro-sfarzi-e-privilegi-ora-resta-sfida-su-vatileaks-e-ior/530153/

So, there is mention of a "hard struggle" (duro scontro) between Mons. Marini and the newly elected Pope, even before the appearence of the Holy Father in the balcony.

New Catholic said...

Andy, friend, come! She is the only possible house; and, if sometimes we appear bewildering, is it not what large families look like on the inside? It may be messy, but it is blessed.

Regarding your other point: Cardinal Ratzinger mentioned the matter many times, including in a famous answer in a Bavarian TV interview. Does the Holy Spirit elect the Pope?

[Card. Ratzinger:] "I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined. There are too many contrary instances of popes the Holy Spirit obviously would not have picked!"

backtothefuture said...

We all have to pray for the holy father, that he softens his stance. I'm sure some of the cardinals will try to consult him on this.

RipK said...

Monsignor Guido Marini is a pupil of the late Cardinal Siri, a great liturgist who trained his priests to love tradition and the church (http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/10/benedictine-altar-arrangement-and.html).
The new Pope seems a very gentle and humble man, but when it comes to liturgy and tradition, I am afraid we are entering a period of darkness. After 7 years of dramatic improvement in papal masses (music, vestments, precious mitres, candles arrangements, appropriate colors etc) the unfortunate time has came that all this is to be reversed. We are back in the ‘70s, the dreadful era of Paul VI. Quite devastating. We more than thank Msgr. Marini for his tireless and brave work and for bringing into materialization the reform of the reforms. Under Benedict’s direction, he infused immense beauty into the papal liturgies for the Glory of God. And, we were so hopeful that this would have continued and grew. The beauty of the catholic tradition transcends all senses and lifts one soul to angelic spheres. The election of Bergoglio has came so unexpected. I think the new pope will replace Guido Marini replaced soon. And gone with him the Benedictine altar arrangement, and all the traditional elements and superb vestments and precious miters.
When it comes to the new Pope’s inaugural vestments, just plain… and this is as good as it gets.
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-pontifical-vestments-that-will-be-worn-by-pope-francis-news-photo/163677882
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/the-pontifical-vestments-that-will-be-worn-by-pope-francis-news-photo/163677875

When one is used to taste honey for 7 years, how can it go back to eating vinegar? I keep asking myself that, and have lost sleep since Wednesday.
The noble simplicity will be taken now to the extreme.

John Gerardi said...

@justin

I don't think it gives the Holy Father wiggle room to transfer him to another department. The text of the document simply says about the master of ceremonies the following:

"Art. 182 — § 2. The master of papal liturgical celebrations is appointed by the Supreme Pontiff to a five-year term of office; papal masters of ceremonies who assist him in sacred celebrations are likewise appointed by the secretary of state to a term of the same length."

So yes, he is appointed to a five year term of office, to that specific office, without any provision given for transferring him to another office at the Holy Father's discretion.

Now, the Pope is certainly able to derogate from this legal norm. He could transfer him to Siberia tomorrow if he really wanted. Nevertheless, it would take an extraordinary act of altering existing law, and I don't think he will go to such extremes. I hope I am right.

At any rate, this doesn't mean we need to pray for Don Guido less; we need to pray for him more. If the reports Prof. Basto is citing are actually accurate (and we should probably take the Italian media's reports with a grain of salt), he and the Pope are already not off to the best of starts.

Don Guido needs to use the four years he has as profitably as possible, to try to convince the Pope of the value of retaining our Roman liturgical traditions. For this task, he deserves and needs our earnest prayers.

Stefan said...

I am actively praying that Pope Francis will be filled with the Holy Spirit and see the true value of a supremely noble, solemn liturgy... including the use of sacred vestments. The reason why its important:

Nothing is more educative for man in his totality than the liturgy. The Bible is certainly a marvelous teacher of prayer, of the sense of God and of the adult convictions of conscience. Used alone, the Bible might produce a Christian of the Puritan tradition, an individualist and even a visionary. The liturgy, however, is the ‘authentic method instituted by the Church to unite souls to Jesus.’ The sort of Christian produced by an enlightened and docile participation in the liturgy is a man of peace and unified in every fibre of his human nature by the secret and powerful penetration of faith and love in his life, throughout a period of prayer and worship, during which he learned, at his mother’s knee and without effort, the Church’s language: her language of faith, love, hope, and fidelity. There is no better way of acquiring ‘the mind of the Church’ in the widest and most interior interpretation of this expression. »Cardinal Yves Congar, O.P., 1963

justin said...

@john geradi:

What I meant was that Mgr Marini, might decide, on his own to ask the Holy Father to be transferred to another department in the Curia - recognising that their liturgical styles clash.

I know that if I were in Mgr Marini's position that is what I would do.

Damask Rose said...

Yes, and Msgr Guido Marini will have to exercise humility and do as the new Pontiff wishes. It's simple. Life's a struggle.

Andy Morgan said...

Many many thanks for this information.

Fr B said...

The hardest part of the new liturgy is that "noble simplicity" was understood as ignoble and simplistic. It appears we are in for some dark times with the later understanding being that of Pope Francis.

AudioSanctus said...

Andy Morgan, I suggest that you go to Audio Sancto and do much listening. And you can download everything there through iTunes.

Anonymous said...

Michigander said,

As one who has been to La Verna for a mass celebrated by the Minister General of the Friars Minor (OFM), I suppose the invitation to the friars there to animate the Papal liturgy comes from the fact that the guardian of the Convent of La Verna (where St. Francis received the wonderful grace of the Stigmata) is an accomplished cantor and has trained a choir which sings a very eclectic repertoir. This guardian is also a brother, not a priest, which is very avant guard, though in fact very traditional practice in the Order, dating from St. Francis himself. Those vestiments you see on Liturgical Review are in the Convent Museum, and you can bet that Pope Francis won't be using them.

However, regarding true and false humility, many commentators here have, I believe, a solid concern: we are clearly in an age which no longer understands that true humility requires chastity, obedience, and evangelical simplicity, the courage to stand with Christ and proclaim His teachings, not the platitudes of men, as the way of salvation.

A franciscan myself, I can tell you that many of us are not entirely at ease or even delighted that the new Pope took the name of our Seraphic Father as his own: for us "Francis" and "Jesus" are sacred names, which cannot be exploited for any pastoral reason. The Society of Jesus was heavily criticized for this by Dominicans and Franciscans and Augustinians way back in the 16th century...which is why no Franciscan pope called himself Francis, no Dominican pope Dominic....

A proclivity or psychological need to abase oneself before others, is not humility: and the miserabilism which is rightly criticized, is actually the by product of the errors of the French Revolution, wherein a false notion of liberty (I, man, must be able to decide what is true and good for me, and thus for you too) leads to a radical individualism, and thus a break with traditionalism (whether natural, as in human cultures, or supernatural as in the Church): consequently there arises a false humility which is praised and lauded for destroying and uprooting and denying anything traditional, any law or norm which reflects objective values, and even the logic inherent in rational discourse....

All of us can fall under the errors of our age, so lets not forget to pray for one and all, and especially the new Holy Father...

CH DUPUY said...

If this is in his first day as Pope, in his message urbi et orbi, and in his first Mass, imagine what awaits us, followers of the beauty and ceremony of the Traditional Mass.

Theodorus said...

Maybe it is not a bad idea to send Msgr. Marini letters to show him our gratitude and encouragement.

Francis in Ma said...

It looks like Bergoglio is going to bring the "spirit" of Vatican II modernist, protestant, and man-centered liturgy to Rome he helped promote and create in Buenos Aires. You know the religious relativism and indifferentism that he promoted and practiced under the guise of "ecumenism" and "inter-religious dialogue" in Buenos Aires isn't far behind. Lord help us.

Uncle Claibourne said...

I just want to cry. God blessed us with Benedict, but we weren't worthy of an equivalent successor. Did the "moment of grace" pass us by?

The media are now beating Francis up for the late 70's/early 80's troubles in Argentina. I have no idea whether any of what they say is true. Our esteemed Cardinal electors probably didn't even think about it.

I've groused; I've looked for silver linings. What are we to do?



Celta Germano said...

Dear sisters & brothers in Christ:
you do NOT have idea on what the Pope Francis´ masses were here in Argentina. No, you don´t.
Perhaps another sign of the times.

Anonymous said...

Interview with Cardinal Pell.

"Proponents of the traditional Latin Mass had little to fear, he said."


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/pope-to-reform-vatican-says-pell/story-e6frg6nf-1226598561478

Rosella.

Francois said...

“Anxiety arises from an inordinate desire to be freed from the evil we experience or to acquire the good for which we hope. Yet, there is nothing which so aggravates the evil or impedes the good as anxiety.

"Anxiety is the greatest evil that can befall the soul — sin only excepted. . . . When our heart is troubled and disturbed within itself, it loses the strength necessary to maintain the virtues that it had acquired. At the same time, it loses the means to resist the temptations of the enemy, who then uses his utmost efforts to fish, as they say, in troubled waters."

— St. Francis de Sales

Parochus Sollicitus said...

How the staff are treated reveals character. To push staff aside at the first possible moment without a decent interval of time to find someone like-minded as a replacement is neither gentle nor humble nor magnanimous.

Throwing a sharp elbow at staff doing his job, whether in a manner suited to the newly arrived superior's personal taste or not, immediately followed by a posture of profound humility before the entire world; it would seem that one or the other gesture must be a pose. It would not seem to be indicative of a high-minded spiritual attitude toward the perceived shortcomings of others. On the contrary it would seem to indicate a strong and untempered irascible streak. I don't worry about an irascible character, continuing to struggle with one myself, but the exagerated pose of docile humility laid on top of it would be worrying to me because not forthright.

I am afraid Michigander's analysis of the revolutionary error that justifies such behavior is compelling because the predicted effects seem to be everywhere among the clergy.

No one is judge of the First See. At the same time no Christian in deferring judgment to Christ should pretend not to see what he sees in the good, bad or indifferent behavior of himself or others.

Maybe as others have noted a more accurate understanding of the office of the Roman Pontiff is in the offing. Perhaps understanding that all men have human shortcomings and being at peace with that is part of the corporate conversion needed by churchmen and faithful alike. The grace of office is not correlative with personal charisma and sanctity.

If the pope is bad-tempered, in one sense we can say so what, the more relevant question is what am I called to. What am I supposed to be cultivating? Certainly not the attitude, "o Lord how good that I am not like other men".

Everybody piling aboard and trying to guess motivation and culpability, trying to read the tea-leaves about the future - very quickly it becomes useless if it slips the yoke of charity. Having said that, the conversation at Rorate is consoling because the comments have an overwhelmingly honest and generally generous tone. I am grateful to all in this community and especially to the moderator for guiding the tone of this Internet conversation so as to build greater, more confident fidelity to Christ our King.

Peadar said...

I'm not so wrought up in these early gestures of Pope Francis. He had his own mind about what he was doing when he went out to the loggia. He did not go out only to give the Urbi et Orbi blessing. He went out to speak as a humble servant of the servants of God. He went out to greet the people of Rome, for which he, a foreigner, was elected shepherd. He went out to ask for prayers for his predecessor--for the first time in centuries, not for the repose of his soul. He went out to thank the People of Rome and the People of God for our welcome to him. He went out to ask for our prayers to God on his behalf. And he went out to bless us. And when he came to that act of benediction, he donned the stole. When he exercised his ministry of sanctification, he wore the stole of his office. Surely that is appropriate, as when a priest dons a stole to bless people and administer to them the sacraments. The cardinals, when electing Pope Francis, saw in his pastoral sensibility what the Church needs at this time.

I suspect that Msgr. Marini is very good at what he does as a liturgist. As other MCs and liturgists for newly appointed or elected ordinaries would attest, it can take some time and persuasion to bring the new guy up to speed. I think he'll understand the need to balance the much needed charism of humility and evangelical straightforwardness that His Holiness brings with the importance of transcendence and timelessness that are essential to the Roman Rite. And I also suspect that a wise Jesuit, who has weathered many challenges already, will be open to that balancing act.

tramtrist said...

could Francis humility unite east and west?
Maybe we're missing something here. This could be monumental..
http://www.asianews.it/news-en/For-the-first-time-since-the-Great-Schism,-ecumenical-patriarch-to-attend-pope%27s-inaugural-Mass-27408.html

Jordanes551 said...



In expressing opinions, please maintain good manners and speak respectfully of the Holy Father Pope Francis, even when (or especially when) expressing criticism.

Also, please remember that Anonymous comments are blocked. Some of you Anonymi make very good points, and it's a shame not to be able to approve your comments. Screen names or pseudonyms are acceptable.

John Otto said...

I'm more on the edges of the Catholic world so the concern with candle arrangements isn't so important. The real war is not going on inside the Vatican but outside. Even if he does 'clean house/reform', it won't matter. The media will continue to attack him and and the Church irregardless.

What is important is that he's not afraid to declare our Lord's name and that he doesn't cower to non-Catholics. The fact that he's quite old and will soon meet his maker is a good thing in terms of resisting material temptations... I hope.

jp said...

I don't know much about the way liturgy is done in la Verna, but I know for sure that the liturgical set they own cost a lot: only the chasuble 5000 euros. They probably have a good spirit regarding the liturgy if they are ready to spend that much for The glory of God. The Pope might have heard of that.
The sad thing is that the man who produced the set is sick and has closed his business.

Parochus Sollicitus said...

It seems from the reports that both Msgr. Marini and Cardinal Law got a taste of the same impatient irascibility. For my own part, whatever it is worth, it would seem that the latter is more deserving of the penance than the former. Maybe Cardinal Mahoney, who currently seems overjoyed by the election, has something to worry about?

We should probably pray particularly that wisdom descend from on high to help a pope with, it truly does appear, a strong reforming desire that he might accurately assess targets. As a deadly serious matter, does the Holy Father have the experience and wherewithal to sort all these characters out and proceed toward reform.

In a strange way for our strange times perhaps Tradition will be on the sidelines, with both the advantages and disadvantages that attend to being taken out of the game, while the Conciliar factions began to fight it out. While Msgr. Marini will probably be benched, apparently from intial reports Cardinal Law is being cut from the team. This is amazing if true.

More and more there are signs that we are not going back to status quo ante regardless of the retro-minimalist Jesuit (or is it Franciscan?) liturgical style of the new pontificate. I am starting to feel a new type of danger emerging, one that is likely inherent to reform.

Upholders of Tradition should be very, very careful I am starting to think. Will the Conciliar dogs of war be released on each other by the sudden arrival of an actual reforming zeal? Will it in practice be a just reform or a shoot the wounded reform - the incident with Cardinal Law could be interpreted either way. Will Tradition have a dog in the coming fight, so to speak, amongst the curial factions and diocesan factions?

Sorry - now I am just thinking out loud. We all definitely need more data.

Deus providebit.

Isaac said...

According to Theodorus, I like the idea of ​​sending letters of support to Mons. Marini for his work.

stopfighting said...

For those old enough to remember, and this would be going way back or are familiar with the history of the times, when there was a transition between popes, was it like it is today? Where literally within seconds of a new pope in front of the people, everyone notices startling differences in dress, actions, whether praying in Latin and so forth.

When a new pope was elected, did he start immediately to make startling differences in the ways he offered his first Masses? Or did popes, maybe not wanting to upset the people, pretty much carry on the same traditions?

What bothers me so much is that literally within minutes of Pope Francis beginning his papacy, Catholics began tearing each other apart over whether the Pope is right, wrong, going in a radical different direction in liturgy. There is a real and very ugly feud going on between Catholics. This blog has Catholics attacking Fr Z's people. Those Catholics are attacking the people here. This is going on all over the place. Do the popes now know what happens between Catholics, the nasty fighting that goes on, over the way they change what the previous pope did? This fightin is just obviously not good for the church.

Matt said...

See. I said Msgr. Marini looked totally unamused at the Pope's first post-Conclave Mass.

Someone said the altar was used during the Conclave and there wasn't time to move it. Well, evidently it was left there on purpose.

This humility routine with the Holy Father is evidently a liberal form of humility--good for public show. Liberals care not a bit for the feelings of others, as evidenced by the way Marini was treated.

I said in an earlier post, we shall see how the Coronation/Installation/word du-jour Mass is done. How that Mass is pulled off will pretty much set the tone for the Holy Father's Pontificate. I dread to see what his Triduum is going to be like.

Matt said...

John Gerardi said, John Paul II's Apostolic Constitution "Pastor Bonus" establishes that the Pope's master of liturgical ceremonies is appointed to a term of 5 years, as are the assistant MCs.

A Pope is not bound by the edicts of a precedent Pope. It is within his Prerogative to dispense as he pleases. If he wishes to dismiss Marini tomorrow, it'll happen.

On the other hand, the Holy Father could create such a hostile work environment for Marini, the Msgr will leave on his own, seeing it pointless to remain. This would not be the first time such machinations have occurred throughout Church history.

StarbucksMom... said...

Oh my goodeness, this sounds like an episode of downton abbey. Heavin forbid the new pope wants to put on his own clothes, or decides ermine is a bit too much for his taste.

Tim said...

I have been truly depressed at the events of this week and also noticed the pained expression on the face of Mgr Marini on Wednesday evening. The tone of things to come is all too evident. I thank God for every day of Benedict's reign and for the work he did and he remains my Pope in my heart. Instead of reading about Pope Francis and watching him I shall read the writings of the Pope Emeritus and draw my inspration from him.

iowapapist said...

Dear All:

It saddens me to read so many comments evidencing despair. Are we being chastened? Maybe we had our hopes set too high. I'm sure we all prayed for the election of a pope who would steer the Church back to solemn, traditional worship as well as clean up the "filth" that has infested Her. Maybe our prayers were partially answered. Regardless, the Church will not succumb to the gates of Hell. We have Christ's own word for that. Perhaps the best course of action would be to fast, pray and rejoice in His sovereignty.

Hidajunshin said...

Let's put this into perspective a bit: check out Cardinal Mahony's latest tweets. Christ have mercy on us!

Archimandrtie Gregory said...

And now we are to be sensitive to those who are not believers and give no blessing, even though they in the Pope's house? Referring to the audience with the press. Kyrie eleison! More of the Assisi days to come. He needs to take counsel from his predecessor!

MarkT said...

I saw the live feed and noticed no blessing at the end.

Liam said...

Please could someone explain to me why all forms of worship cannot be used? We are not all the same and so do not come to know God in the same way. What would Jesus Christ make of this unseemly worrying over clothes?

Antiphona said...

Dear Stopfighting,

"For those old enough to remember, and this would be going way back or are familiar with the history of the times, when there was a transition between popes, was it like it is today?"

I'm not sure about papal transitions, but Dom Reid recounts that, when the neo-Gallican Quignonez(?) Breviary was implemented during Tenebrae in a cathedral in Spain the laity rioted until the canons suspended the implementation of the new Breviary.

For what it's worth.

Antiphona said...

Re: Quignonez' Breviary

To follow up, this was a drastic Breviary reform he undertook by order of Pope Clement VII, with the result issued by Pope Paul III. It was supposed to be for the clergy's private use only, but permission from above was given for its public celebration, hence the Tenebrae episode I mentioned above.

Again, for what it's worth.

Benedict Carter said...

Tramtwist:

Re-union between east and West? Only if Pope Francis agrees, in effect, to be the "first amongst equals" and ditches Vatican I.

I am not Spartacus said...

Primus inter pares, indeed.

The miscreants in the media and the schismatics of the East will love this Pope for he is clearly signaling that he will not reign (or likely, rule) as Supreme Pontiff - and thus the difference in style from Bishop Emeritus Benedict.

Btw, did you notice that Pope Francis referred to him as Bishop Emeritus? Well, what message do you think he was communicating by calling him Bishop Emeritus rather than Pope Emeritus?

As to the Mass, what he did was to be expected given his previous praxis; and let's not kid our own selves, Pope Benedict XVI's personal preferences in how he offered The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass could not be expected to be continued .

We have a new Pope with personal preferences that are radically different than his predecessor. O well....after the single most important and Holiest act taking place on Earth at any moment in time was massacred by the modernists what did we expect would happen other than madness and mayhem?

With virtually endless options, The Lil' Licit Liturgy became the playground of personality, preferences, and prejudices.

The duties of a Bishop are to Teach, Rule, and Sanctify
and who thinks our new Bishop of Rome will discharge those duties with zeal?

I can not see any Traditional force evident in Pope Francis's past praxis as a Prelate nor is there yet traditional force being evinced in his short time as Pope Elect and which force could act to even slow our inertia into indifferentism.

I hope this does not come across as negative.

Ecu said...

It finally came to me: he chose "Francis" because of the Assisi prayer meetings. I guess everyone else got this awhile ago...

Antiphona said...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813874

For what it's worth.

Kevin said...

From the BBC:

"Minutes after the election result was declared in the Sistine Chapel, a Vatican flunky called the Master of Ceremonies offered to the new Pope the traditional papal red cape trimmed with ermine that his predecessor Pope Benedict XVI gladly wore on ceremonial occasions.

"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"

John Paul The Third said...

Poor Monsignor Guido Marini,he did not adjust himself yet towards the Dictatorship's style of humility.

Thanks to Pope Francis that you have call it mandatory for a humility must be observed, just like a sub-machine gun giving a shot of warning against Monsignor Guido Marini in exchanged words.

Take my advice,if you are 'guerrilla';then stay,if you are not;then please wait for the incoming deportation to Falkland Island.Sound funny to you?This is not,even right now my country is still on bloodshed.

Quiet life and praying along with the Bishop Emeritus of Rome is one of a very recommended choice for now.You(Monsignor) and Bishop Emeritus of Rome, could pray for us.So how's the offer?

John Paul The Third

Francis in Ma said...

Benedict Carter said..."Re-union between east and West? Only if Pope Francis agrees, in effect, to be the "first amongst equals" and ditches Vatican I".

That shouldn't be a problem for Bergoglio, after all as a bishop he's for the most part already ditched the teachings of the Fourth Lateran Council, Florence and Trent, so Vatican I, to him, and to people who think like him, is just another one of those old, mean stuffy, unenlightened and dogmatic councils that should be shelved for the totally hip, man centered, worldly, indifferentist, relativist, syncretist super pastoral council known as Vatican II. I wish I were being hyperbolic, but sadly for we trads given this mans past I don't think I am.

Anonymous said...

The vestments in La Verna mentioned in the post are in a museum and are not used for liturgical functions. Regarding the liturgies at La Verna they are quite mundane. Once I stayed there for a brief time and had the opportunity to play the organ for a Mass. Before the Mass, I indicated that I wanted to have the Propers sung in Latin, but was rebuffed as one of the friars said to me "solo Italiano." So don't expect anything spectuacular if the Franciscans are in charge of the liturgical service of the Papal Installation Mass.

J.G.Ratkay said...

Me thinks we will not observe an recurrence of the liturgical style of the Pauline and Ioanno Pauline era (which had by all shortcomings a form of soundness and dignity) but a radical elimination of all decorum, which is now in the new Papacy seen as superfluous and carnevalistic. The reported conversation between Don Guido Marini and HH Pope Francis (concerning the pontifical mozzetta), before the first appearance of the newly elected Pontiff assumes at this the worst.

Christopher said...

Can what is reported by this BBC correspondent (a hater of Catholicism by all accounts) be true? I am thinking especially of the "quote" of Pope Bergoglio in speaking to Mons Merini: '"No thank you, Monsignore," Pope Francis is reported to have replied. "You put it on instead. Carnival time is over!"'.

What seems certain is that if Francis desires to undo the careful work of Pope Benedict he will have the full help of the secular press! They now want to cast him in opposition to Pope Benedict, and he (Francis) is helping them either wittingly or not.

The advice, sage advice too, from many friends including here is not to despair. And of course that is a sin and always there is hope, we are Christians after all. But I cannot hide my sorrow and disappointment: and still the question Holy Father Pope Benedict why did you, how could you, abandon us?

rosa roccaforte said...

To all readers:
please don't trust anything published in the Italian newspaper "Il Fatto". It's one of the most anticlerical newspapers in Italy. They love everything is contrary to Catholic teachings in matter of doctrine, morals, etc. They are now congratulating the new Pope because they saw immediately how much he appears (or is) different from Pope Benedict. The same journalists who now applaude this Pope, called Benedict a Nazi and pictured him as a shepherd dog, calling him "Il Pastore Tedesco" ("the German Shepherd").
All the apaperntly real afection by leftist pundits in Italy about teh new Pope leaves me quite upset and anxious.
As I can remeber neither John Paul I and II or Benedict XVI staretd their pontificate in a so strikingly different manner as Pope Francis.
And now a silent benediction !!! It's a FIRST !!! I don't know in USA, but usually here in Italy even the atheist (except the most radicals) show respect for the Pope, and accepts his benediction without any wrong sentiment !!
Rosa, Milan, Italy

Beth F said...

Tread lightly here people. In your hearts have charity and trust in the Holy Spirit. Remember the promise of Jesus to Peter, when giving him the keys to the Kingdom, that the gates of hell will not prevail.

Do you really think the Church has been abandoned?

I urge you to read this verse and really ask God to help open your hearts.

Matthew 12:32: And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

New Catholic said...

will write this in bold letters.

Maybe in spirit, the new Pope meant that, but I am positive this Italian media gossip, now forwarded by the BBC, is not true.

Also, I am positive that the Italian media gossip about the new Pope "dismissing" Card. Law from being in the Basilica and sending him to a "monastery" is also untrue - regardless of the fact that Law deserves it or not.

It is still unclear what the Pope's deeper intentions are, but he is a nice man, that is attested by all. It is probable there was a misunderstanding of some kind, but those are not the kind of words and attitude he would use in public.

So, unless there are recordings of both those events, or an eye-witness is willing to say on the record that these things were said, they should not be trusted.

NC

GQ Rep said...

Unfortunatly, I think Pope Francis I is against beauty in the Catholic Mass...and that can mean ornament, vestments, and music.

Be prepared for the bare=bones stripped down Mass that Paul VI favored. And unfortunatly, look for a reaction to the new Pope's taste in Catholic parishes...with the aged radicals given fresh impetus by this Pope to foster their barren churches which look more Calvinistic than Catholic.

Personally, I am an Italian Baroque era/style Catholic in the mold of Pius XII...eventhough I was born almost 23 years after Pius death in 1958. I have seen the "church of the poor" in my travels in Latin America on photo shoots/spreads. Brazil, Mexico,Argentina,Colombia and Equador...I've been there...done that. And I can tell you that THAT type or expression of the Catholic Faith doesn't look anything like Catholic. More like Pentecostal. The "church of the poor" advocates there are copying from the Pentecostolists, and immitating the 1960's-1970's radical priests who first introduced the concent of the "church of the poor".

To make the Catholic Church seem more welcoming to the poor is a great thing....but to strip our Churches bare, throw out treasures to become "the church of the poor", is a violation of valid judgement. The poor love the ornamentation in the Churches...they love the processions, etc. And when they are denied them, they go elsewhere to meet their spiritual needs.
In Latin America, its to the worthless expression of the Pentecostolist "christians" who seem to spend alot of time spewing hate (towards Catholics, Jews, Americans etc.) rather than preaching Christ.

It's a big mistake to throw out the treasures and traditions of the Church to be like the poor. The people don't want to be poor....and they resent the Church lowering themselves to be like the poor. It's glorifying a lifestyle that the poor themselves are not proud of, and wish to advance out of poverty. For the Church to glorify poverty is an attempt to praise and perpetuate it..rather than to help end poverty...which is what the poor people want.

An end to their social condition, not the glorification of it.

invocante said...

With every passing day the modernising destructive agenda of Pope Francis becomes more clear. Today on the 16 March did several significant things. Firstly, he reconfirmed all the Curia in their posts so no sign of the Curial clean out some though Francis would undertake. Secondly at his first audience (specially arranged to greet the press not the faithful) he said he wanted the church to be poor and for the poor. The church ought to be pro the poor but cannot help them if it is poor itself. I fear a grand auction of church treasures. Thirdly and unbelievably the pope "gave" the Apostolic Blessing in silence out of respect for the fact non Catholics were present! Sums the new pope up: he has no respect for Catholic tradition but respects non Catholic traditions!

OnEaglesWings said...

A Jesuit choosing the name of a Franciscan as pope.

Both orders are seriously in decline in contemporary times now.

Is the new pope consolidating? Trying to build upon the ruins of each order? Hmmm. Or is he sent to us to show us what poverty is like? Perhaps a deeper, more personally experienced worldly poverty? The poverty from which my parents brough me out of... thank you mom and dad, and thanks be to God!

----------------------------

I remember my first (and last)coffee-table mass. It was in the the common room on the third floor in the dorm I used to live in when in college. It was 1978.

One of the "charismatic" catholic students invited the Newman Center priest to say Mass for us... so I thought... well, yes, in a way.

So there were about 20 some students who attended along with me, on that occasion.

The then priest, had with him a shallow earthen bowl and a half-gallon plastic container of grape juice that was about 2/3 full. I know because when I asked why the wine was purple and did not have the aroma of wine - I was told by the pastor "oh, it's just Welches grape juice". It took me aback. And the wafers; there were none. A loaf of "Wonder" bread was produced, fresh from the store. I kid you not - it was the brand!

Yes, the pastor brought it all.

Now it's obvious to me what was "happenin" back then, but he half-jokingly made the comment: "one has to be prepared".

Needless to say, the priest was already suspicious as to why I chose to go to the back and did not say a word, as he sat down, used the room coffee table as the "altar", well not really an altar, since he later told me one was not necessary. Which explains why he sat through the entire affair, never getting up, used no text, but ad hoc-d the whole affair while all others sat in a half circle around the coffee table. I too sat through the whole thing, but for other reasons.

He approached me after, to reprimand me for not "partaking" (in the mockery of a consecration). I told him that it's no big deal; it's not necessary, especially since i was neither hungry or thirsty.

I told him that his mockery of a mass was most sacrilegious and he was committing grievous mortal sins and also leading others into sin. So, he showed his kindness to me, while in front of others. From that day, he and I engaged in 5 months of personal debate about the catholic faith. Most of which would end after neither could stand the other any longer for the evening. We disagreed on practically everything! Both of us were exhausted by spring... and I welcomed spring break!

When I returned, in that off week, we were given word by the auxiliary bishop that he had left the priestly order and went off to live in Alaska with his girlfriend.
Last I heard, he has two children.

I have always felt a great deal of responsibility to likely having given him all the reasons why Catholicism was not going to work for him. Pray for me, but more so, pray for him. Every time I go to Mass, to this day, I say a prayer for all the lost priests out there.


Jorge said...

Please visit the website of La Verna Shrine (http://www.santuariolaverna.org/). It's really gorgeous. Also the friars' vestments.

God bless Don Guido.

Unfortunate Sinner said...

I follow this blog and don't usually post on blogs, but this worries me: https://twitter.com/CardinalMahony

Unfortunate Sinner

Unfortunate Sinner said...

Watch poor Msgr. Marini in this video. It's so sad and so unnecessary.

http://www.romereports.com/palio/pope-francis-to-meet-with-benedict-xvi-at-castel-gandolfo-next-saturday-english-9450.html

Paul Haley said...

May Almighty God give Mons. Marini the assistance he needs in his hour of trial. For Pope Francis to treat Marini like he has tells us more about Pope Francis than it does about Marini. Where is his concern for his brother in this instance? We must pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten our new Pope and teach him that Tradition really means something and St. Francis would never treat a brother priest in such fashion.

Anonymous said...

While it is correct to give Francis some time to act, please do not fool yourselves.

I am Argentine, I live in Buenos Aires since I was born. I am 40 years old, father to four kids. I helped and hosted priests from the FSSP and the Institute of the Good Sheperd when they visited Buenos Aires. None of them was granted a single minute with Bergolgio. We visited a dozen churchs in the City, begging the priest in charge to allow the visitors to say the Mass. By direct order of Benedict, it was impossible. Only one priest allowed a Mass, and immediatley received a phone call from Bergoglio in person, who insulted in the most vulgar terms. I know this because that poor priest is a dear friend of mine.

Bergolio is a vulgar man, badly mannered, who shows a falsa attitude of dialogue and humility, but inside (when the doors are shut) he is tiranic and violent with everyone daring to secondguess him.

Bergoglio publicly defended Bishop Maccarone, after it was revealed that he had contranatura realtionships with a taxi driver (a video was available). Another extraordinary priest of Buenos Aires (Mons. Gustavo Podestá) dared to critize in his sermon "those who defend the indefensible" and within 24 hs was sacked by Bergoglio and sent home for ever (his flock in tears). Mons. Podestá even published in the parochial web page that "Mons. Bergoglio requested my resignation with great charity accepted it by telephone".

I could tell a lot more. Church in Argentina is a mock of the true Church, as regards liturgy, doctrine and public defense of pro-life agenda. And this is to thank to our new Pope.

I think that the cardinals were utterly unaware of the true nature and records of Bergoglio. A wwell devised trapp was set; it appears that Abril y Castelló collected the votes. This cardinal is also well known in Argentina since he was a Nuncio here, and was responsible for many horrendous nominations of modernist Bishops.

Believe it looks awfully bad. This has to be, nevertheless, contemplated in the Divine Plan. Perhaps a chastisemen for the world and the Church.

Kind regards,

Antonio Lara

New Catholic said...

Thank you, Mr. Lara. All reports from orthodox and serious Catholics in Buenos Aires are UNANIMOUS.

Best regards,

NC

Parochus Sollicitus said...

It does seem universally clear that Pope Francis is a nice man, attentive to others in many, many different types of circumstances and conditions. It wouldn't be unheard of, however, for such a man to be less than tolerant of close-in people presenting perceived obstacles and challenges. (Or maybe the Media is exaggerating and distorting beyond recognition, also not unheard of). In fact, such a general tendency of close-in intolerance is entirely natural in all of us.

Maybe one salutary point is to remember that all of us, even popes, have areas of human weakness. Being nice can according to particular vocation fit very neatly with sanctity, but it is most definitely not co-terminous with sanctity. Being nice, the highest virtue of pluralism, while still a virtue (kindness) in the Christian life, does not rest atop the hierarchy of holy virtue.

Internet conversation exaggerates things. There is a dynamic always threatening to overwhelm the virtue of discretion; sometimes in the direction of noxious, despairing pessimism, sometimes in the direction of enervating, presumptuous optimism.

While it is unseemly to be having some of these discussions with the world eavesdropping on the Internet, it is a sign of love and devotion, if a sometimes frustrated expression to even be having the conversation.

The conversation calls to mind the story from the life of Saint John Vianney who could be quite irascible at times. Some group got together to write a letter to the bishop denouncing him and listing his human faults and he asked if he could sign the letter too.

The humility necessary for a public figure is a special kind of penance. While the scale of the discussion is vastly different, this whole conversation is not unlike what every pastor faces when assuming an office with the care of souls.

Trust God above all, always and everywhere. All other trust requires time; more for some, less for others.

At the end of the day the pastor is most gratified not by having everyone like him. A priest is not a man for himself, when he is he does wrong- that is true for each one of us. A priest is most gratified in Christ when it is recognized that he belongs to his people and his people belong to him. This is the good shepherd. This is the man who can persevere through trial and according to the pattern of Jesus Christ be both priest and victim.

Having spoken to the subjective situation, it remains an objective source of trial that the Revolution and its errors have so thoroughly gotten into the bloodstream of the Church. It is a trial much larger than you or me or the pope for that matter. What will we do to be faithful sons in the hour of trial?

Uncle Claibourne said...

Antonio Lara said: "I could tell a lot more."

Mr. Lara, when you have some time, please do! Thank you!

Prof. Basto said...

Given Mr. Lara's report that "Only one priest allowed a Mass, and immediatley received a phone call from Bergoglio in person, who insulted in the most vulgar terms",
is it correct to dismiss the several articles about the humiliating way Mons Marini was treated?

Parochus Sollicitus said...

Thank you Mr. Lara. We have been accustomed for longer than anyone's living memory to popes, even those popes of the Council, who had achieved, in the previous eras to a high degree of cultivated and high-minded Catholic training.

Now we have the fruit of the Council. Even Pope Paul VI while digging the grave of Tradition seemed to treat the task with some reticence, as distasteful even if he judged it necessary.

There are reasons for it that others have explained with great care in other places, but the post-conciliar era is an era of grinding spiritual mediocrity. What else can it be if we do not hand on what we have received, but rather go down the path of continuous invention.

The supernatural motive of giving to Almighty God what is due to Him is no longer strong enough to check, restrain and elevate human weakness among large, large numbers of the higher and lower clergy.

petrus69 said...

In reference to Mr. Antonio Lara's comment, this should be posted in "Fr Z" Blog site

Texas Catholic said...

@Antonio Lara

"I think that the cardinals were utterly unaware of the true nature and records of Bergoglio. A wwell devised trapp was set; it appears that Abril y Castelló collected the votes. This cardinal is also well known in Argentina since he was a Nuncio here, and was responsible for many horrendous nominations of modernist Bishops."

Please correct me if I am wrong but isn't Abril y Castello' in charge at St. Mary Major, where the Pope "slipped out" to visit his first day in office? Also, if he just "slipped out" to visit, how did the world media find out about it?

Magdalene said...

He could have the Franciscans of the Immaculate (who staff St. Mary Major) to help.....

Anonymous said...

Cardinal Abril y Castéllo was created a cardinal by Pope Benedict XVI just last year...he is a career and expert diplomat and product of the Accademia Ecclesiastica -- "Old School". Shrewd, consecrated a bishop by Casaroli...

Fred said...

"DICI obtained the opinion of Fr. Christian Bouchacourt, District Superior of South America, on the evening of the Pope’s election.

Cardinal Bergoglio wishes to be a poor man among the poor. He cultivates a militant humility, but can prove humiliating for the Church. His appearance in the loggia of St. Peter’s in a simple cassock without his rochet and mozzetta is a perfect illustration. He is a fine politician… And idealistic apostle of the poverty of the 70’s, he is completely turned towards the people, the poor, but without being a disciple of the theology of liberation.

Very conscious of the dilapidated state of his clergy, he did nothing to fix things. Never has the seminary of Buenos Aires had as few seminarians as today. It is a disaster, as have been the liturgies presided over by the “Cardinal of the Poor.” With him, we risk to see once again the masses of Paul VI’s pontificate, a far cry from Benedict XVI’s efforts to restore to their honor the worthy liturgical ceremonies.

He was firmly opposed to abortion. But while he wrote a beautiful letter to the Carmelites of Buenos Aires against the homosexual “marriage” bill – which was unfortunately voted through in the end – he had a regrettable discourse read during the protest against this bill, in which the name of Our Lord was not pronounced even once, while the Evangelistic pastor who spoke before him to excite the crowd delivered a more courageous discourse…(see DICI #219, July 24, 2010).

During an ecumenical meeting, he knelt to receive the blessing of two pastors.

He is a man of consensus, who hates confrontations. He kept his distance from the Catholics who denounced the blasphemous expositions that were held in Buenos Aires.

I have met him 5 or 6 times and he has always received me with benevolence, seeking to grant me what I wished, without going out of his way to overcome obstacles…."

Jeremiah Methuselah said...

Would a kind person post a link of Pope Francis “throwing an elbow” in the direction of the great and good Mgr Marini please ?

With thanks in advance.

Sergius said...

Pope Francis is an "up-to-date" Jesuit and we can expect nothing good from him in the liturgy. We can only hope that he will not abolish the small but very valuable improvements made by Pope Benedict (God bless him... I miss him more and more...).

Patrick John said...

Why no hope? It's only Saturday. The conclave didn't even begin to convene until Tuesday.

He served as ordinary for the Eastern Catholics in Argentina. The Ukrainian Catholic Patriarch has said that Francis knows Byzantine liturgy and spirituality well. I believe it's likely we shall see the Holy Father (con)celebrate the Byzantine liturgy before his pontificate is over.

He stopped to pray at the tomb of St. Pius V on Thursday morning.

Also, Francis has probably yet to read the dossier prepared for him by Benedict and is scheduled to meet the Pope Emeritus a week from today. Much could change. Perhaps he may also read the third secret of Fatima.

Don't forget that Pius IX was elected as a notorious liberal and became an archconservative.

It was Fulton Sheen who said that the greatest temptation of the Church over the next century would be to preoccupy Herself with social justice.

Who knows? God works in mysterious ways.

Unfortunate Sinner said...

@ Jeremiah Methusalah. I don't know if this is the one you're referring to, but here is a video from the Sistine Chapel Mass. Watch at 00.10. Msgr. Marini looks a little annoyed.

Unfortunate Sinner said...

Sorry, forgot to attach the video.

http://www.romereports.com/palio/pope-francis-to-meet-with-benedict-xvi-at-castel-gandolfo-next-saturday-english-9450.html

Prof. Basto said...

NC,

Messa in Latino stands by its sources for the information about the humiliating remarks addressed by the Pope to Mons. Guido Marini, "Those vestments, Monsignior, wear them yourself, the Carnival is over". In the link below, the editors of Messa in Latino reaffirm that they consider the sources absolutely reliable.

https://www.facebook.com/messainlatino/posts/531565440227168?comment_id=6254843&offset=0&total_comments=28

Prof. Basto said...

Sancte Pater, sic transit gloria mundi!

J.G.Ratkaj said...

It is banal to compare the early papacy of Pius IX of blessed memory with Pope Francis. It only proves mere deficiency in beloved Pio Nono's biography.

Realistic said...

Perhaps Mgr Marini should be asked to serve a parish or community in the third world for a term of say, five years. There he will surely learn the true and relative lack of importance of vestments, Gregorian chants and precious mitres and understand the need to spread the word of God and the spirit of Christ as a means to alleviate poverty, suffering and need

Antiphona said...

Dear Realistic,

If that would be the case, then let all who support him go with him, and make that third world parish or community a place such that a visitor would say:

"We knew not whether we were in Heaven or on Earth… We only know that God dwells there among the people, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations."

-St. Vladimir the Great

joe said...

After only a short time with Pope Francis, I'm so thankful I came across your blog.

lajmh said...

I've notices Monsignor Marini helping Pope Francis ease into his new role. I think the best possible solution is that eventually Marini (and Mnsr Konrad Krajewski too) gets elevated to Bishop and then Cardinal.
In the meantime...all we can do is watch and pray.

lajmh said...

As for the vestments, unless Francis is required to wear it (the red cape), then he has the right to refuse to wear it. Case closed. It is not the vestments that make the office but the man.