Rorate Caeli

Pope to CLAR, part 2: "Yes, there is a 'gay lobby' in the Curia. We need to see what we can do about it"

[First part: Pope on Traditional groups]
[Third part: Full transcript]

Pope meets CLAR Presiding board (June 6, 2013, image: L'Osservatore Romano)

Among many other things said by His Holiness in his audience to the Presiding Board of CLAR (the Latin American and Caribbean Confederation of Religious Men and Women - Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosos y Religiosas) on June 6, 2013, according to the transcript provided by those present to Chilean ultra-progressive website Reflexión y Liberación (Reflection and Liberation), was a reference to a supposed "gay lobby" inside the Roman Curia. Just a note: the words below, not at all happy from a progressive perspective, are a strong indication of the likeliness that the transcript is accurate - or as accurate as it is possible in the setting of a non-public audience.

And, yes... it is difficult. In the Curia, there are also holy people, really, there are holy people. But there also is a stream of corruption, there is that as well, it is true... The "gay lobby" is mentioned, and it is true, it is there... We need to see what we can do...

The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the Congregations preceding the Conclave. I also asked for it. I cannot promote the reform myself, these matters of administration... I am very disorganized, I have never been good at this. But the cardinals of the Commission will move it forward. There is Rodríguez Maradiaga, who is Latin American, who is in front of it, there is Errázuriz, they are very organized. The one from Munich is also very organized. They will move it forward.

Pray for me... that I make mistakes the least possible...

[All ellipses from the original transcript. Source: Reflexion y Liberacion]

20 comments:

Angelo said...

"Pray for me...that I make mistakes the least possible..." This is strange coming from a Pope. Does he doubt the Guidance of God the Holy Ghost? It is sad to say that I hope that Pope Francis steps down. Something is not right! Something is just not right!

CDville said...

Of course pray for him! He is not infallible in administrative issues.

Joseph Gryniewicz said...

This is good. While I was confused by the Palegian comment--it seems to me that traditionalists tend more the opposite direction, ready to believe that good is so difficult and grace so rare that few will be saved more easily than that can be good enough to merit eternal life apart from grace--this makes sense! How readily I will pray for the Holy Father to take on the sweet yoke of divine guidance in this very necessary project. God bless the Holy Father!

Philosoraptor said...

It would be worse if he said, "I know that whatever I do will be the will of the Spirit".

Give me a break. His Holiness knows it will be a tough fight and he's begging the Lord for help.

Alan Aversa said...

Has the Holy Father mentioned Palagianism and Gnosticism before? (I seem to recall he mentioned Gnosticism before, but I can't recall when/where.)

Some other disturbing parts:

"El evangelio no es la regla antigua" ("The Gospel isn't the old rule…")
Perhaps he's referring to the Old Law?

"Los pobres son el evangelio..." ("The poor are the gospel…")
This sounds very Liberation Theology-esque.

"La reforma de la Curia romana es algo que pedimos casi todos los cardenales en las congregaciones previas al Cónclave." ("The reform of the Roman curia is something that almost all we cardinals asked for in the congregations prior to the Conclave.")
Here's what Pope St. Pius X said about the Modernists' desire of reforming the curia, etc. (Pascendi):
Ecclesiastical government requires to be reformed in all its branches, but especially in its disciplinary and dogmatic parts. Its spirit with the public conscience, which is not wholly for democracy; a share in ecclesiastical government should therefore be given to the lower ranks of the clergy, and even to the laity, and authority should be decentralised. The Roman Congregations, and especially the index and the Holy Office, are to be reformed.

His (non-)understanding of the vocations crisis:
"No tienen vocaciones, qué sé yo, el Espíritu Santo no quiere que sigan, quizá han cumplido ya su misión en la Iglesia, no sé… Pero ahí están, aferradas a sus edificios, aferradas al dinero… Yo no sé por qué pasa esto, no sé cómo leerlo. Pero les pido que se preocupen de esos grupos… El manejo del dinero… es algo que necesita ser reflexionado." ("They do not have vocations, what do I know, the Holy Spirit does not want them to continue, perhaps they have already completed His mission in the Church, I don't know… But here they are, clinging to their buildings, clinging to their money… I don't know why this happens, I don't know how to read it. But I ask you to be concerned about these groups… The management of money… is something that needs to be reflected on.")
Could the Holy Spirit's mission in the Church truly be coming to a close?

Eric said...

@Angelo: I think the real question here is do YOU doubt the guidance of the Holy Ghost regarding His Church? Do not confuse specific infallibility with universal infallibility. The Pope is not infallible all the time. The reason you need to get this straight right now is that those outside the church use this very technique (universal infallibility = specific infallibility) to confuse people. Stop feeding into it. There are plenty of things to legitimately (and respectfully) critique His Holiness on. This ain't one of 'em. Pretty please get it straight or you wind up providing the ammo for the enemies guns. Thank you.

Matercula said...

Why are we reading every little word that His Holiness says and picking it to bits.
I cannot remember reading every word that Pope Benedict uttered.
Pope Benedict XVII had years of working in the Vatican and I am sure was always very aware of every small word he uttered in public.
Pope Francis is very open and honest in everything he says. From where he comes from he has never had to be otherwise.
Will 'we' ever get used to this ?

When he says, "I am very disorganized, I have never been good at this. But the cardinals of the Commission will move it forward."...he is being honest. Thank God he has the sense to delegate this all important matter to people he recognises as stronger than he. Wise man !

New Catholic said...

"I cannot remember reading every word that Pope Benedict uttered."

Where were you in 2005-2013? In a Tibetan cave? No Pope had his words more disected and distorted than Pope Ratzinger.

As for your other point, I agree with you that there are wonderful and admirable things in this transcript, that part being only one of them.

New Catholic said...

Angelo, of course he makes mistakes, or can make them... To step down, for instance, would probably be one: here's hoping for no more papal resignations in the foreseeable future, the Church does not need this kind of instability.

Ronald Huff said...

It's wonderful that he is addressing the issue. May the world gain from his attention to it. It's not easy being Pope.

Samuel J. Howard said...

Could the Holy Spirit's mission in the Church truly be coming to a close?

The Holy Spirit's mission in the Church cannot be coming to a close, but certainly the missions of some religious congregations could be coming to a close.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

"I cannot remember reading every word that Pope Benedict uttered."



Holy Father Pope Francis is going to learn very fast that his words carry weight and is going to get measured and scripted soon enough.

Unknown said...

"Yes, there is a 'gay lobby' in the Curia. We need to see what we can do about it"

“I would rather have a Church that makes mistakes for doing something than one that gets sick for being closed up...”

So which is it? Aren’t groups ranging from Dignity to SSPX doing that? Experimenting? Opening the doors? Potentially making mistakes, but ‘opening the doors’ nonetheless? According to the pope’s reasoning, these groups are doing nothing wrong, should continue their work, and ignore threats from the CDF.

Does anyone else see how flawed this thinking is? And where does it end? Which groups does it apply to? Only religious in Latin America or the whole Church?

RJH

Doubting Thomas said...

Thank God for Pope Francis. I believe as a true servant of the Lord he will shine the light of Christ into the darkest corners of the Vatican.

Angelo said...

A priest told me years ago that a Pope must be very careful on all he says. Because of the teaching of the Church concerning Indifectability. The Pope cannot err on matters of faith and morals. So why are we so saddened by this Pope's contradictions? We cannot but observe that through Pope Francis the Reform of the reforms have ended and a different course has sadly been taken. One example, the Pope speaks of disciplines that no longer exist. Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl constantly reminded us that this is not a new Church, it is the same Church before, during and after the Council. Which is why the "Reform of the reforms" was of extreme importance to the Papacies of Bl. John Paul ll and Pope Benedict XVl. They both spent their Papacies restoring what was erroneously done away with, especially the Old Mass. It was through error that the disciplines were abrogated by those who have been practicing error in the Church for over 40 years. Yes! I believe in the Church's guidance from God the Holy Ghost. Which is why I am wondering what is happening?

gtaylor said...

Are those women professed nuns?
I have yet to meet a westernised dressed "nun" who didn't have serious faith problems, is this who the Holy Father surrounds himself with?
Almight God bless your Vicar with some wisdom.Amen.

Brian said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sarah said...

The disorganization and the tendency to say whatever he's thinking are classic ADHD traits (I know because I also have them). I can relate to the difficulty with organization and the request for prayers that he make as few mistakes as possible--for the sake of the faithful--and that he learn (quickly) from those he does make (for his sake as well as that of the faithful). I pray the same thing as a wife and mother with ADHD.
Prayers are guaranteed.

Sarah said...

His request for prayers that he make as few mistakes as possible aren't "strange for a pope" any more than they're strange for a human being, particularly one with such a tremendous responsibility on his shoulders.
Rosaries for the holy father are always a good idea. I read somewhere before that our holy father prays the rosary every day--that he was inspired by Pope John Paul II to follow his example in this. Let's pray that he does or continues to do so.

Sarah said...

I should add that with ADHD, when I'm nervous or feel overwhelmed, I tend to run off at the mouth. Maybe that's what's going on here with our holy father. I don't know, but it's possible. Can those of you with ADHD even imagine how overwhelming it must be to be even a bishop, let alone the pope?
I'm not saying that explains everything--the readiness, for example, to welcome leaders from other religions into the cathedral for interreligious prayer. All I'm saying is that of all the reasons to criticize the actions or words of this pope, his asking for prayers that he avoid mistakes that scandalize the faithful shouldn't be on that list.