Rorate Caeli

Pope to Latin American Religious: Full text
Update: Religious confirm they were the source

[First post: traditional groups; second post: "gay lobby" in the Curia]
[Original source: Reflexion y Liberacion; in case of dead link, copy in our repository]

On June 6, 2013, the Pope received the presiding board of the CLAR (the Latin American and Caribbean Confederation of Religious Men and Women - Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosos y Religiosas). A transcript of the pope's words was made by those present, and given to the Chilean ultra-progressive page Reflexión y Liberación (Reflection and Liberation) for exclusive publication.

Whoever knows the Pope and who knew the words and demeanor of former Cardinal Bergoglio can have no doubts about the accuracy of the words below - in which different groups within the Church and the Curia are specifically mentioned. Words in (parentheses) are part of the original transcript to provide the context. Words in [square brackets] were added by us to clarify language difficulties and explain a few points. All ellipses are part of the original Spanish transcript. We hold no public opinion on any part of the text: we report, you decide.

_____________________

In an unprecedented gesture, Pope Francis received and held a dialogue of one hour with the board of the Confederación Latinoamericana y Caribeña de Religiosas y Religiosos (CLAR). They spoke in a circle, among equals, as it happened in the first communities founded by Jesus...

In an environment of trust and simplicity, Francis prompted the leaders of the CLAR to not be afraid of continuing to carrying on their mission to the boundaries and to the borders.... "Courage! Advance towards new horizons! Do not be afraid to run risks going to the poor, and to new emerging subjects in the continent," said Pope Bergoglio, who at the end of the meeting emphatically thanked religious life for being "sign and witness of the Gospel" in many places in Latin America and the Caribbean.

We offer our readers - exclusively - this short synthesis of this historical meeting held in the Holy See.

Audience with Pope Francis

CLAR, 06.06.13

"Open the doors... Open the doors!"

They will make mistakes, they will make a blunder [meter la pata], this will pass! Perhaps even a letter of the Congregation for the Doctrine (of the Faith) will arrive for you, telling you that you said such or such thing... But do not worry. Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward... Open the doors, do something there where life calls for it. I would rather have a Church that makes mistakes for doing something than one that gets sick for being closed up...

(on his election) I did not lose my peace [of mind - no perdí la paz] at any moment, you know? And this is not from myself, I am of the kind that gets worried, that gets upset... But I did not lose my peace at any moment. This confirms to me that this comes from God...

(upon mentioning to him the hope that his gestures at this time have brought us, he makes reference to having stayed at Santa Marta) ....these gestures... they have not come from me. They have not occurred to me. It is not as if I had brought a plan, nor that I have made one myself once elected. I do it because I felt this was what the Lord wanted. But these gestures are not mine, there is Someone else here... this gives me confidence.

I came [to Rome] only with the necessary clothes, I washed them at night, and suddenly this... And I did not have any chance! In the London betting houses I was in 44th place, look at that, the one who bet on me won a lot, of course...! This does not come from me...

It is necessary to shake things up [flip things over, lit. dar vuelta (a) la tortilla]. It is not news that an old man dies of cold in Ottaviano [Rorate note: referring to the surroundings of via Ottaviano and the Ottaviano Rome Metro station, near the Vatican], or that there be so many children with no education, or hungry, I think of Argentina...On the other hand, the main stock exchanges go up or down 3 points, and this is a world event. One must shake things up! This cannot be. Computers are not made in the image and likeness of God; they are an instrument, yes, but nothing more. Money is not image and likeness of God. Only the person is image and likeness of God. It is necessary to flip it over. This is the gospel.

It is necessary to go to the causes, to the roots. Abortion is bad, but that is clear. But behind the approval of this law, what interests are behind it... they are at times the conditions posed by the great organizations to support with money, you know that? It is necessary to go to the causes, we cannot remain only in the symptoms. Do not be afraid to denounce... you will suffer, you will have problems, but do not be afraid to denounce, that is the prophecy of religious life...

I share with you two concerns. One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council... One feels in 1940... An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...', but this thing of counting... And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today...

The second [concern] is for a Gnostic current. Those Pantheisms... Both are elite currents, but this one is of a more educated elite... I heard of a superior general that prompted the sisters of her congregation to not pray in the morning, but to spiritually bathe in the cosmos, things like that... They concern me because they ignore the incarnation! And the Son of God became our flesh, the Word was made flesh, and in Latin America we have flesh abundantly [de tirar al techo]! What happens to the poor, their pains, this is our flesh...

The gospel is not the old rule, nor this Pantheism. If you look at the periphery; the destitute... the drug addicts! The traffic of people... This is the gospel. The poor are the gospel...

(upon mentioning the hardship of being in charge of the Roman Curia, and the commission of cardinals who will support him, etc.) And, yes... it is difficult. In the Curia, there are also holy people, really, there are holy people. But there also is a stream of corruption, there is that as well, it is true... The "gay lobby" is mentioned, and it is true, it is there... We need to see what we can do...

The reform of the Roman Curia is something that almost all Cardinals asked for in the Congregations preceding the Conclave. I also asked for it. I cannot promote the reform myself, these matters of administration... I am very disorganized, I have never been good at this. But the cardinals of the Commission will move it forward. There is Rodríguez Maradiaga, who is Latin American, who is in front of it, there is Errázuriz, they are very organized. The one from Munich is also very organized. They will move it forward.

Pray for me... that I make mistakes the least possible...

Aparecida is not over. [Rorate note: the reference is to the 5th General Conference of the Latin American Episcopate, held in the Marian shrine of Aparecida, Brazil, in 2007. See our lengthy coverage of the meeting in our Aparecida Notes series.] Aparecida is not simply a document. It was an event. Aparecida was a different thing. First, because there was no working draft. There were suggesions, but not a draft. And in the end, there was no document either, but on the eve of the final day, we had 2,300 "notes"... Aparecida moved towards the continental mission. There ends Aparecida, in the push towards mission.

What Aparecida had that was special was that it was not celebrated in a hotel, nor in a retreat house... it was celebrated in a Marian shrine. During the week, we celebrated the eucharist and there were some 250 people, because it was a regular workday. But on the weekends, it was full....! The people of God joined the Bishops, asking for the Holy Spirit...

I saw - I name him because I see him more standoffish, more like this, he is good, but he is like that - I saw the Prefect, João [Rorate note: João Braz de Aviz, then-Archbishop of Brasilia, now Cardinal-Prefect of Religious], who went out with his miter, and people got close to him, and they brought the children near, and he greeted them, and hugged them like this... This same bishop then voted. He could not have voted the same way as if he had been in a hotel!

We had the meeting rooms under the Shrine. So the background music were the chants, the celebrations in the Shrine... This made it very special.

There is something that concerns me, even though I do not know now to understand it. There are religious congregations, very, very tiny groups, a few persons, very old people... They have no vocations, what do I know, the Holy Spirit do not want them to go on, perhaps they have already fulfilled their mission in the Church, I do not know... But there they are, clinging to their buildings, clinging to money... I do not know why this happens, I do not know how to understand it. But I ask you to be concerned with these groups... The management of money... is something that needs to be reflected upon.

Enjoy this moment that we live in the Congregation for Consecrated Life... It is a moment of sunshine... Enjoy. The Prefect [Cardinal Aviz] is good. And the Secretary [Abp. Rodríguez Carballo, OFM], that was "lobbied" by you! No, really, being the president of USG [Union of Superiors General], the logical thing was that it would be him! It's better...

Place all your effort in the dialogue with the Bishops. With CELAM [Latin American Episcopal Conference], with the national conferences... I know there are some who have a different idea of communion, but... Talk, speak with them, tell them...

_____________________

Update (1300 GMT): Il Sismografo, that frequently links to us, asked the Vatican spokesman directly today about the content of the report. Fr. Lombardi's answer was the following: "The meeting of the Holy Father with the members of the Presidency of the CLAR was a meeting of a private nature. I do not have therefore any declarations to make on the contents of the conversation." Grazie, Il Sismografo! / Following up on Lombardi's refusal to comment, the large Spanish broadsheet El Mundo added this moments ago: "Despite this, several Vaticanists asked by elmundo.es consider that it is perfectly plausible the Francis has pronounced them [these words], considering that the Pontiff is capable of speaking without restraint on any matter, as delicate as it may be."

_____________________

2nd Update (2000 GMT): The Presidency of CLAR confirms the content of the report, even though they regret it was made public. They do not vouch for every detail, but they do not deny those, either:

"Bogota, Colombia, June 11, 2013

"The Presidency of CLAR deeply regrets the publication of a text referring to the conversation held with the Holy Father Francis in the course of a meeting on this past June 6. A conversation that took place prompted by questions made by those present to the Pope.

"In that occasion, no recording of the conversation was made, but soon afterwards a summary of the same was made based on the recollections of those present. [Rorate notes: at least one of those present had a visible writing pad in his hands; maybe another device was also used to capture the conversation.] This summary, that does not include the questions posed to the Holy Father, was destined to the personal memory of the participants, and not for any reason meant for publication, something for which, on the other hand, no authorization had been requested.

"It is clear that, on this basis, the singular expressions contained in the text cannot be attributed to the Holy Father with certainty, but only their general sense.

"The Presidency of CLAR deeply regrets what has happened and the confusion it may have caused.

"Sister Mercedes Leticia Casas Sánchez, FSpS - President
Fr. Gabriel Naranjo Salazar, CM, - General Secretary" (Source)

_____________________

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82 comments:

lucas clover alcole said...

This is ridiculous, the CDF might send you something but just ignore it, so he has no control whatsoever over the Curia?! Madness, absolute madness.

Liam Ronan said...

Frankly, I do not know what to make of all this which, at first blush, is distressing at best.

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brothers."

God guide the Pope and protect us all in these terrible times of diabolical disorientation.

Liam Ronan said...

These bewildering (now public) remarks attributed to the Pope virtually cry out for a definition of terms and clarification of the Pope's thoughts, all of which directly and immediately impact each member of the Universal Church. 'Pelagian current', 'restorationist', etc.

JB said...



Well it's interesting to say the least. I've not heard a pope speak that way before. "Ignore all those pesky letters from people like Cardinal Ratzinger." lol.

bill bannon said...

If a religious order is down to a few people, they had better cling to their money which they'll need as they'll need buildings to live in if no new religious are earning income.
Pope Francis has two buildings and no income worries. I like him as a saintly warm charismatic figure but once again we do not have an administrator capable of changing canon law on status of pols and philanthropists who further abortion. That makes a traveling author, an author, and a charismatic street saint type....in a row. No one who loves administration from 9AM til 5PM...who can shut down gay pride clubs in colleges with a stern phone call to the Cardinal of that region... in line with canon law citing his power as " supreme" and
"immediate". Maybe Cardinals in modern times are averse to electing the administrative Cardinals...the ones Francis just praised in the piece for their abilities in administration.

Common Sense said...

Seems H.H. sounds strange, confussedand bewildered. Unusually for pope to speak like this.

Supertradmum said...

I would be over the moon grateful for ten rosaries said for me much less that many. And, what about all the children who pray rosaries for the Pope in home schooling and trad groups? Why is he so insensitive?

JB said...



With all due respect he sounds like a typical Latin American Jesuit who has a kind of benign contempt for orthodoxy in favor of an exclusive focus on orthopraxis - - as if the two could ever be separated in Catholic life or thought. I'm surprised because as he has well said previously, the Church is not some glorified NGO. Her doctrine matters. This should be obvious to someone who attains that office.

poeta said...

What about the time His Holiness asked everyone to pray three Hail Marys for him? Were we not supposed to count them?

Robbie said...

I simply don't know where to begin. Were I in a charitable mood, I would find these comments bewildering. Were I in a not so charitable mood, I would find these comments upsetting and distressing. To think, a Pope of the Catholic Church just encouraged groups to ignore the doctrinal concerns that might come from the CDF. It's astonishing.

One of the first things Francis said after his election is the Church can't become a NGO. Yet, his every action and comment since then has indicated he views the Church as a giant NGO with a spiritual bent. His message daily is more like that of Socialist party leader than a religious leader.

It seems Francis believes the doctrines and orthodoxies of the Catholic faith should take a back seat to comforting the poor. Comforting the poor is worthy and admirable, but why can't it be both? He seems to think one must be subordinate to the other.

Michael Ortiz said...


Well, I can understand seeing a danger in counting such prayers...not so much Pelagian as a danger of pride. However, it seems when the faithful offer 'counted' prayers to the Pope, they should be presumed to be doing so in a charitable spirit.

Pelegian is more found, I think, in the happy-clappy crowd that "canonizes" someone for being a faithful sports fan and always making great chili for the superbowl. Come on!

JB said...



Ah the forties. Such a calamitous, backward time for the Church. High mass attendance. No gay marriage. Large Catholic families. Saddled with a pope such as Pacelli. Don't even get me started on the 50s when we had to put up with such things as the Dogma of the Assumption being defined....

Anchorite said...

For the first time in recordable history we have the head of the Catholic Church talking malarkey. This is a usual socialist populist nonsense that's been coming out of Latin American provincial politics. It is alright for a community organizer to say things like that. You might even be able to get elected in US for two terms... But for a Pope? (even for a "Bishop of Rome" - that's as ridiculous as it gets).
I didn't expect to live to see the Papacy reduced to an honorary headship of an Third World NGO.
Disgusting.

Anchorite said...

Supertradmum,
He is so insensitive? C'mon, he is "emancipated." Don't you know a progressive by a false humility and a elitist despising of the "pelagian" expressions of religiosity?
I think most of us have misunderstood why Bergoglio was elected. The media, the blogs, the faithful started thinking that his WORDS were the reason (the call for Curia's reform, the Church-is-no-NGO rhetoric etc.). I'd venture to suggest that he was elected simply based on his stellar Vatican II record of:
- cohabiting with the State
- simple and confusing language
- dismantling of hierarchical church in Argentina
- never celebrating TLM
- being NOT friends of Ratzinger
- a poor administrator
- a provincial demagogue
- etc.
All these qualities made Bergoglio a perfect candidate to weaken Papacy to the point of irrelevance - a progressive decentralizing agenda for decades - allowing pedo-cover-upers like Daneels and Mahony to rest in their retirement.

Anil Wang said...

The Pope prays an entire pre-Vatican II rosary (i.e. minus Luminous Mysteries) and has a great Marian devotion so it's clear he's not dismissing the Rosary. His peeve seems to be against counting. Given his other speaches and homiliesI interprete this as meaning he's against mechanical rather than prayerful Rosary recitation. 1000 mechanically mindless Rosary recitations are worth less than one truly prayerful Rosary. He's said the same thing WRT confession, although confessions work ex opere operato and sacramentals such as the Rosary enjoy no such guarantee.

The key thing to note is that he called "counting" Pelagian rather than Pharisaic. He does not accuse the group of being prideful and he does look on it "with respect, but it concerns [him]". I think he sees mechanical and mindless ritualism as being Pelagian since it leaves God out of the picture and depends solely on getting your numbers up to increase the probability of success. Since there's no proof other than his intuition that the Rosaries were said in this spirit, its not the best example. A better example would be people who buy several "St Joseph Home Selling Kits" and superstitiously expect that the sale is a done deal since they've installed so many kits on their property. Another example is when Mary taught Saint Bernadette how to do the sign of the cross properly, slowly and deliberately. Too often people do the sign of the cross quickly and mindlessly like they're trying to swat flies.

Michael Ortiz said..."Pelegian is more found, I think, in the happy-clappy crowd that "canonizes" someone for being a faithful sports fan...."

Agreed 100%. Even if they appeared to be the most faithful Catholic in the city, such canonizations are extremely presumptuous and uncaring since no-one will pray for them.

Athelstane said...

Setting aside the passages already posted earlier, this one caught my attention:

There is something that concerns me, even though I do not know now to understand it. There are religious congregations, very, very tiny groups, a few persons, very old people... They have no vocations, what do I know, the Holy Spirit do not want them to go on, perhaps they have already fulfilled their mission in the Church, I do not know... But there they are, clinging to their buildings, clinging to money... I do not know why this happens, I do not know how to understand it. But I ask you to be concerned with these groups... The management of money... is something that needs to be reflected upon.

The Holy Father seems reluctant to make any judgment on this sad phenomenon of the dying of (liberalized) religious orders, but it's clear that he sees it and is not ignoring it, and is concerned by it. If nothing else, it makes it more likely that he really does know the full import of the CDF investigation and attempted reform of the LCWR. Whatever else is true, I tend to dooubt now that he will be convinced by semantic gymnastics of the sort being displayed by Maureen Fiedler to dismiss the dying of these orders as a "new evolution" in religious life.

Will he say more on this subject? Will he do more? I'd love to know.

JB said...



Anil, I don't know why the pope would have any reason to assume that those rosaries were said "mechanically." How does he know? Kind of a negative, even ridiculing, assumption wouldn't you say? How many of us say our rosaries in a perfect state of contemplation or confess our sins perfectly (incidentally, the Church requires us to state mortal sins "by number and kind...).

That he sees repetitive recitations of the rosaries as any kind of major "problem" in the Church today is what concerns me most. What is it the C.S. Lewis said? Every age focuses on ailments from which it does not suffer?

Rather than criticize imperfect rosary recitations, maybe it would be better to focus on the loss of an entire generation to the Church after Vatican II, a fact which is amply demonstrated by waning attendance at mass.

Athelstane said...

Well, I can understand seeing a danger in counting such prayers...not so much Pelagian as a danger of pride. However, it seems when the faithful offer 'counted' prayers to the Pope, they should be presumed to be doing so in a charitable spirit.

Well said, Michael.

Throckmorton P. said...

As some may remember from prior comments, I was 21 when the Council opened. Over the ensuing years I have felt betrayed, abandoned, and angry and deceived by the actions and lack of action by the hierarchy--now I am simply profoundly sad. These words--and I have to assume religious values--of the current pope are not simply modernist’s philosophy run amok, but core Catholic beliefs belittled. Astonishing.

Alphonsus Jr. said...

Typically schizophrenic Vatican II gobbledygook.

akp5401 said...

It's sad if he didn't realise those 'counted Roaries' are prayed as a gift for him from the people praying them. Pelagian doesn't seem to come in here - surely it's the modern way of thinking that turns out Pelagians not traditionalists.

Dr. Timothy J. Williams said...

The arrogance and contempt of the Pope's comments are manifest. How many times have we encountered the same attitude when petitioning our local pastors for the Latin Mass? One is a "Pelagian" these days for merely preferring Gregorian Chant to ukeleles. The Vandals are in full charge in Rome, make no mistake about it.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

Do not underestimate the Holy Spirit and his protection over his Church. This Holy Father is there because Christ wills it.
Most of you think his office is political, will work with this or that faction of the Church, No, he will not. He is the Pope. He will always do what is right for the Church in matters that concern the Church.

The translations seem to miss out a lot of the meaning that would have been carried in the original language he speaks, however, he seems more concerned with people that focus on particular aspects of the faith to the exclusion of all else.
Its amazing how he admits that he is no administrator. It would seem to me like we are back to John Paul II. A papacy that cares little about Vatican administrative processes.

If I were a new age religious and I got a letter from CDF, based on all the stuff said here, I would quickly do what the CDF says be done. Why? Well Pope Francis is not interested in administrative stuff that means the people he put in charge can run with it.

Simply put, the Church is now totally under the care of the Holy Ghost.

Long-Skirts said...

The Holy Father said:

"They have no vocations... But there they are,...clinging to money...be concerned with these groups... The management of money...

the Holy Father ALSO said:

"but this thing of counting..."??!!!

Woody said...

Maybe HH is commenting on these Restorationists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

Oh, oops, that would be unecumenical.

Bwangi Kilonzo said...

Last take away. This Holy Father will not do much administratively. He is a preacher. He is not interested in the slog. Never has been.

Throckmorton P. said...

"He is the Pope. He will always do what is right for the Church in matters that concern the Church."

Apparently the activities of John XXIII, Paul VI and JPII have been ignore.

Sancte Alphonsus said...

When Lucia asked if Francisco would go to heaven too, Our Lady said, "Yes, but first he must say many Rosaries."

RipK said...

Francis' talk is powerful but his comments about living in the '40s and the counting of the prayers are very ungrateful and discuraging. It reflects the state of his (modernistic) consciousness. Probably, someone should teach the new Bishop of Rome that the Universe operates on mathematics and numbers are divine.

Archimandrite Gregory said...

Makes you wonder about the cardinal electors who put him through. What a mess!

Genty said...

The more I read these off-the-cuff remarks the more I have to swallow my natural reaction that I am witnessing some sort of ghastly parody.
The Pope certainly needs our prayers; as do those who have to work with him.
What a gift he seems to be to those cardinals who voted to be left alone.

andHarry said...

I would like to think that Francis is making a concession to Christ's injunction that the repetition of prayers is heathenish practice, but I doubt it. Certainly as a child the daily imposed rosary, with litanies during May and October, etc. was the bane of my childhood, spoiling many an evening's football, or other recreation pursuit.; nobody hurried home in case they missed the rosary. For me, and doubtless many other children, it was mindless repetition, and as useful as a prayer wheel.

JB said...



andHarry, thank you for that thoroughly protestant sentiment. Christ was criticizing people who pray to be seen, not nuns who meditate on the mysteries of the rosary. As Fulton Sheen once said, how many times do you tell your wife you love her? Once? Oh you say it more than once? Well that is vain repetition...

Mike said...

"Poor men and women who are sinners, I, a greater sinner than you, wish to give you this rose, a crimson one, because the precious Blood of our Lord has fallen upon it. Please God that it may bring true fragrance into your lives - but above all, may it save you from the danger that you are in. Every day unbelievers and unrepentent sinners cry, 'Let us crown ourselves with roses' (Wis. 2:8). But our cry should be, 'Let us crown ourselves with the roses of the holy Rosary.'
"How different are theirs from ours! Their roses are pleasures of the flesh, worldly honours and passing riches which wilt and decay in no time, but ours, which are the Our Father and Hail Mary which we have said devoutly over and over again, and to which we have added good penitential acts, will never wilt or die, and they will be just as exquisite thousands of years from now as they are today."
~St. Louis Marie de Montfort

A couple of days on, I remain haunted by the words of the Holy Father about the spiritual bouquet offered to him. Surely, the Pope cannot disparage with his words the gift of a spiritual bouquet of thousands of holy Rosaries prayed by poor sinners for his intentions?

Who ARE the poor, Holy Father, and what IS poverty?

t said...

"He will always do what is right for the Church in matters that concern the Church."

There is nothing whatsoever in Catholic teaching that says such a thing. The histories of Paul VI through Benedict XVI and now Francis are empirical proof that this is not the case.

This isn't the first time a Pontiff has spoken 'malarkey' either.

Common Sense said...

H.H. displayed rather unsavoury contempt for tradition. This is more than just his usuall 'poor' business prattle. 100% agree with Anchorite, well stated.

Bill said...

I don't see how his thoughts are compatible with all the emphasis he puts on humility.

Bill said...

I don't see how his speech can be in harmony with all the stress he puts on humility. He may be very humble. But if I were humble, I wouldn't act as though I wanted everybody else to notice my humility. I'm afraid there's another progressivist, maybe even another Modernist on St. Peter's throne. And I can't imagine why any pope would be too, too egalitarian when he's supposed to be an absolute monarch.

cultul said...

I'm not sure how the holy Father is defining Pelagianism and applying it to traditional Catholics. I also am a bit surprised that he missed the point that offering him a spiritual bouquet of 3,000+ rosaries was somehow not important. This from a Pope who dedicates his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima. We must pray, like Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, that the Church of Darkness leave Rome.

Anchorite said...

Catholic Church is now at the state of sede disiuncte.

Gregory said...

There's a world of difference between one person reciting, say, 3,000 Rosaries (you'd need more than a five-bar gate system to tally that lot) and 1,000 well-adjusted, emancipated and online restorationists (hey, just hoovering up the new carnival buttons as I go) signing-up to a one-click bouquet petition (for instance) to reverently say all three of the original Mysteries. In the latter case, very little "counting" would need to be done. There's even an app for it.

Eric said...

This really has the feeling of friends bsing over tea and cookies. I agree that the offhand, unappreciative comment about 'counting' sounds bad and some stuff sounds good (admission of the existence of the 'gay lobby'), but I honestly think that one can not read too much into this text.

Also @lucas: He never said 'ignore' the CDF. I think he meant that they should not let fear of being disciplined hinder their zeal but that they should throw themselves whole heartily into their work and if they make a mistake to simply correct it. I don't know too much about CLAR but if they're not much better than the LCWR than giving them extra rope to hang themselves with doesn't seem to be prudent on the Holy Father's part but at least he didn't say 'ignore'. It looks like Pope Francis is gonna shoot from the hip regularly. Which means that his words will regularly carry less weight than usual with other popes. It also means that cardinals at congregations will regularly be slapping themselves in the face and shaking their heads in exasperation. If nothing else, these be interesting times.

Eric said...

What is 'sede disuncte', Anchorite or anyone that knows? I tried to google translate it and it said disuncte means 'varied'. Varied seat? What does that mean?

Just another mad Catholic said...

Please forgive my Naivite but what are we getting worked up about?

The Holy Father makes reference to the vested interests of money and the Idol worship paid to it by modern man.

I doubt that he was condoning the insanity embraced by religious in the US; he has in the recent months made it clear that he supports the CDF in its move to reform women religious (see the remarks regarding pantheism) it IS POSSIBLE that the tone of some remarks/books my be misunderstood by the CDF (Cardinal Ontiavani had grave reservations about St Faustina's "Diary of Divine Mercy" which came about through a poor translation) and that clarification may be necessary.

As for the comment about trads, the Holy Father isn't one of us and it is possible that he mistook the actual tallying of numbers as a boast.

Pax Dommini
JMC

Laurence said...

"When Lucia asked if Francisco would go to heaven too, Our Lady said, "Yes, but first he must say many Rosaries."

Thank you Sancte Alphonsus, I like it when Our Lady has the last word--and She will!

Edward More said...

Assuming that the Holy Father's words made public by "Reflexion y liberacion" are genuine (I personally don't have a strong reaon to believe they are not), one must say that the worries of traddies at the beginning of pope Bergoglio's election have proven to be very well founded.

I have always found it extremely bizarre this antipathy of the modernists to all things traditional that seem to them archaic, "out of date", from the "middle ages" etc... To them, it seems like a "healthy" Church devoid of any archaic traditions only really began after V II... It seems like they view the preconciliar church as holy, but with some kinds of "defects" that were repaired by the conciliar revolution to bring the church up to modern times.

These words of cardinal Eugenio Pacelli from 1937 were truly prophetic and ring true today more than ever:

"I am worried by the Blessed Virgin’s messages to Lucy of Fatima. This persistence of Mary about the dangers which menace the Church is a divine warning against the suicide of altering the Faith, in her liturgy, her theology and her soul... I HEAR ALL AROUND ME INNOVATORS WHO WISH TO DISMANTLE THE SACRED CHAPEL, DESTROY THE UNIVERSAL FLAME OF THE CHURCH, REJECT HER ORNAMENTS AND MAKE HER FEEL REMORSE FOR HER HISTORICAL PAST."

Mike said...

"..considering that the Pontiff is capable of speaking without restraint on any matter, as delicate as it may be.."

More's the pity.

Faced with this impossible moment, the only 'answer' I can see is more prayer, more Rosaries, more personal restraint in word and thought, more faith, more fasting, and continual daily sacrifices for the Holy Father and the Church. Still, for today, plain and simple, I'm brokenhearted.

Edward More said...

A prescient quote from St Pius X's "Pascendi Dominici gregis" which I think we would do well to consider in light of pope Francis' pontificate:

“With regard to morals, they adopt the principle of the Americanists, that the active virtues are more important than the passive, and are to be more encouraged in practice. They ask that the clergy should return to their primitive humility and poverty, and that in their ideas and action they should admit the principles of Modernism... What is there left in the Church which is not to be reformed by them and according to their principles?"

JB said...



3200 rosaries?? it's almost like these people think that they can store up treasure in Heaven or something.

oh wait. a certain carpenter from Nazareth said exactly that.

I would suggest that the Holy See promptly clarify His Holiness's purported remarks.

Marie-Jacqueline said...

One wonders what HH would have to say about indulgences . . .

ka said...

Let us all pray for this Pope. Yes there is the Holy Ghost but equally there is the devil. This papacy is young and the man is learning his way. Maybe what was said was "what those present wanted to hear", maybe the translation is imperfect, maybe he meant every word of it and has been accurately quoted. Who knows?. If he truly does not have organisational skills nor the will to reform then it will be business as usual in the Vatican to the detriment of us all. He has also been quoted as saying "Don't interfere with the traditional Mass" to Italian bishops. Only over time will the true colours emerge.

JB said...



I'm so troubled by this episode but will let it go for now. Let it be known that we Catholics do not worship the person of the pope; he is just a man like Peter, who denied Christ. We revere his office, because it is our only direct link to Christ himself.

That the pope is meeting with these people, who clearly laughed at the notion of rosary bouquets, shows that he is open to all views I suppose. But the fact is this: Latin American catholic "elites", such as those pictured sitting with him, are thoroughly enamored of the pseudo-christian class warfare advanced by Gustavo Gutierrez, which was roundly condemned by a prelate by the name of Josef Ratzinger many years ago.

The Holy See needs to say something.

Gratias said...

This is a public relations disaster. The Pope has a Chief of his household. He needs to place Greg Burke in charge of media.

He probably was excited about having a conversation in Spanish with liked minded Catholics. I have said regrettable things in conversations that I would not like printed. We criticize V2 with gusto, but by in large we cannot do without the V2 Church for our sacraments, tambourines and all. Francis is our Monarch and can shut Summorum Pontificum down with a sroke of the pen. We could be back in an instant to prohibition as before 1988. I did pray for His Holiness on my commute back form work. I counted 1 Gloria, 2 paternosters, 3 Ave Marias and 1 Apostles Creed, al in Latin. Hope my spiritual bouquet helps.

Latin Americans like to talk al lot, so hopefully he will learn from incidents like this to be more diplomatic and not say what is in his mind every day. For administration we need a strong Curia, otherwise we have a problem in Rome.

Matthew Fisher said...

I have previously defended Pope Francis here under the pseudonym elfrancoloco. However, I can no longer keep up the charade.

Pope Francis does show the above-mentioned "benign contempt" for sound doctrine, and for the liturgy that's on the books. In order to emphasize the good, he confuses our understanding of the true, and neglects even the GIRM's desacralized form of the beautiful.

That's not a sustainable program for a Roman Catholic Church. Once the true and the beautiful are jettisoned, the concept of the good morphs to include intrinsic evils. This is a dead end, even for an NGO.

The Bergoglio pontificate and canons 670-671 are like a highway sign saying: "Bridge Out. Detour in Case of Spiritual Necessity, Exits 670-671".

David said...

I was on the phone to my wife this morning who was literally in tears about the Pope's comment regarding the CDF. Indeed, here in Scotland it is a struggle to raise a family in the faith in the face of the monthly reports of priests and bishops living lives of unnatural immorality, whilst the State slowly moves towards outright discrimination (and maybe persecution) against practising Catholics. But for the Pope to disparage the rosaries of faithful Catholics that were offered to him and to give encouragement to the never-ending dissent on the part of priests, religious, and bishops is a very hard blow.

Angelo said...

In reading these comments its great to know I am not alone. I tried my best to defend Pope Francis but find there is not much to defend. Pope Francis asks everyone he meets to pray for him. He is then sent a time honored tradition of giving Spiritual Bouquets of prayers. He's been given a Spiritual Bouquet of the second most powerful prayer one can pray, the Holy Rosary. The Mass being the first most powerful prayer. He then turns and displays ingratitude. I thought modernists had nothing left to destroy in the Church. I believe we are about to witness a second wave of modernist destruction. So many during these past 50 years have been left in a state of confusion and error, and that includes the highest ranking of Prelates. I believe Pope Francis needs very much to restudy the Vatican Council Documents. He hopefully will see that V2 has been totally scrapped and replaced by modernists own conception of Vatican ll. The SSPX has thus far been mainly silent. That's understandable as modernists in Rome are just waiting for a reason and the moment to rent their garments and condemn Traditionalists altogether. His Excellency Bishop Fellay has said he is open to anther Rosary Crusade. I would like to see a 12 million Rosary Crusade for the Church. 7 Million in honor of the 7Sorrows of Our Lady and 5 Million in honor of the 5 Holy Wounds of Christ. If others believe this would be in vain, it would not. Our Lady constantly reminded. Saint Padre Pio to, "Use the Weapon" which was and is the Holy Rosary. Pope Francis has completely wrecked the hearts of many, and they being the most faithful of Catholics. At his election many Argentinians expressed their grave disappointment. It now sounds like they knew what they were talking about. Pope Francis must be a new creation and mold himself into the image of the Vicar of Christ and not the other way around.

Barbara said...

I miss Pope Benedict A LOT - the idea of "continuity" between the two papacies would "make hens laugh" - as we say over here...

Prayers for Pope Francis...may Our Lady help him... - as only Pope Francis can truly speak for Her Son...

Confused, I am...

Gregory said...

It will be instructive to conduct another "blogwatch" over the coming hours and days. Especially of those blogs that, previously, until sometime in March 2013, were among all the "go to" sites (along with Rorate Caeli) that could always be relied upon to mount a sterling defence of Church Tradition against those who would seek to denigrate it. You all know the blog titles, so there's know need to list them. But too many of them have seemed conspicuously silent concerning these regular Franciscan episodes (and they're mounting up now, to the point where denial must surely give way to an acceptance of reality - the carnival really is over - and, ironically, I genuinely think we're being encouraged by His Holiness to wake up and smell the last of the incense, and more fool us if we don't).

It has been one of the saddest effects of the last few months, to watch the previously united Traditional Catholic blogosphere starting to creak. Really, had Cardinal Daneels or any of the other noted trendies said what His Holiness is reported to have said (and it hasn't been denied) about "Rosary counting", then I'm sure all of the blogs would have had their say, and how! Blogging (teaching) in the Benedictine era (which saw the birth of this new phenomenon) was pretty easy because everybody was safe in the knowledge that the boss man in Rome was on board. Not so much now. Thankfully Rorate has proved itself to be the indispensable blog of all Traditional blogs these last few months and hasn't wavered from minute one. Nevertheless we still need all those other famous blogs to re-present the united - loyal but truthful - front that supported and encouraged Traditionalists around the world until March of 2013. Yeah, let's be docile - but at least let it be known that we're being docile!

The blogs do get read in Rome. They are very influential. There have simply been too many episodes, right from the moment of "Mozetta-gate" up to this latest swipe at so-called "Rosary counting", to extend the denial any longer (take your pick, also, from the "Red Shoes affair", the re-arranged altars, Maundy Thursday [where to start on that one?], the clear signals that are being given concerning Communion in the Hand [it's inevitable how that one will pan out, I fear], publicly airing the job prospects of Mgr Marini, the well-aimed line about liturgical "emancipation"...and I'm sure there are others I've missed). And I still remain to be convinced that Summorum Pontificum is safe, not whilst it may seem that we can be as easily divided and conquered as would seem to be the case in the once united blogosphere.

It's only been three months since Pope Francis was elected but these incredibly disheartening episodes are starting to average out at about one per fortnight (not that I'd dare to count them!). Sure, in amongst all that lot, it's also perversely welcome to know that the Devil is publicly acknowledged to be back on the scene (Deo gratias for that!), and that His Holiness wants the Confessional light back on, and within the last week has given an explicit admission that the rumoured existence of a homosexual lobby within the Curia is indeed a fact. Rorate has reported all these, too - as did most of the other previously indispensable Traditional blogs. But on the other side of things, from "Mozetta-gate" in March to "Rosary counting" in June, and all instances in between, which are starting to synthesise into what appears to be a sustained passive-aggressive denigration of the Traditional ("restorationist", cough) cause, there seems to be an awful lot of cyber-radio silence.

Gregory said...

Erratum: yes, I know, I should let my know be know and my no be no! *grumbles something about spell check*

Angelo said...

Pope Francis opens his arms to all with the exception of traditional Catholics of his own household. He speaks of disciplines that no longer exist today. Why do they no longer exist? Because modernists have taken them away from us and claim it to be the work of Vatican Council ll and the work of the Holy Ghost. If we returned to the Council, this the Council would have outright condemned as a modernist heresy, at least by the Traditional Council Fathers. Pope Francis says, "I am very disorganized". Many agree with him on this. "The Pontiff is capable of speaking without restraint on any matter..." Not true, he is constrained by the 2000 year teachings of the Church. The Pope speaks so much of the poor. I am one of the poor! And he is robbing me of the only treasure I posses, the Treasure of Christ and his Church. St. Paul in scripture corrected St. Peter. St. Peter accepted the correction and had the final say as Vicar of Christ. Throughout the history of the Church great Saints have had to remind the Popes of possible mistakes. Traditionalists may have to do this again at this point in history. The Holy Father needs to be reminded of what the Council's intentions truly were and what it truly said. Not what some would erroneously like to invent in their own minds. The Holy Father needs to be reminded that this type of reasoning has already been condemned as the heresy of modernism by St. Pius X. This condemnation of modernism stands today and cannot be changed, it must be obeyed as a discipline of Christ's Church.

benedictus said...

"Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward... Open the doors, do something there where life calls for it."

My take away here is that we should just go ahead and restore the pre-1955 liturgical rites.

David said...

"Explain whatever you have to explain, but move forward... Open the doors, do something there where life calls for it."

My take away here is that we should just go ahead and restore the pre-1955 liturgical rites.


I don't think was exactly the kind of pastoral initiative that the Holy Father had in mind!

Anchorite said...

Gregory,
Thank you for the great summation!

Many people voiced concern, or expression of their first impressions, that something was "not right" about the man and the whole circumstance of his ascending the Throne of St. Peter.
His continuous refusal of using the word "Pope," refusal to resides where popes do, refusal to act, dress, speak like a pope, was often explained by the like of Fr. Zuhlsdorf that the man needed time to learn to be a pope, and that he was an old stubborn kind of a man....
My take on that is simpler: if there was a progressive coup-d'etat (not unthinkable) and Pope Benedict was indeed tricked into leaving, the "caretaker" is still somehow avoiding the "trappings" of the papacy - the Pope is still alive, but in seclusion.
Now, that doesn't mean I am personally sedevacantist - the Chair is still occupied. I am just suggesting that Bishop Francis knows something we all don't.
Direct your rosaries to the Pope, not to some emancipated vagrants in Rome.
By the way, I personally found it a great deal of humor in that story of a impostor bishop, dressed as one, trying to sneak into Vatican around the time of the conclave... Remember? Maybe someone dressed as a pope (with some obvious mistakes) slipped in as well. :)

El Cid said...

Like Matthew Fisher, I've used a pseudonym to offer an occasional dissenting view concerning this papacy. After this latest episode, however, I can no longer defend the indefensible. Like many others here who have commented far more eloquently, I'm troubled by the Holy Father's casual attitude toward the traditions of divine worship and prayer. I can only hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us through this present crisis.

Deoacveritati said...

I forgot to post the title of the video and it is called: St. Malachy's Prophecy of Popes and Antipopes Youtube mfhm1.

Edward More said...

Dear Angelo,

"The Holy Father needs to be reminded that this type of reasoning has already been condemned as the heresy of modernism by St. Pius X. This condemnation of modernism stands today and cannot be changed, it must be obeyed as a discipline of Christ's Church."

Well said, I perfectly agree with you on this point. Hopefully this latest episode will be a chance for all true Catholics to further sanctify themselves through prayer and mortification - and yes, despite the Holy Father's words - more spiritual bouquets in the form of countless rosaries for HH.

El Cid said...

Should have signed that last post:

-- C. Montesano

Barbara said...

"Pope Francis has completely wrecked the hearts of many, and they being the most faithful of Catholics."
I don’t know about completely Angelo – but if things continue along these lines… oh the irony of it all!

Traditional Catholics are well-known for their filial loyalty to the Pope . (I am not talking about the fruit-cakes and sedevacantists).

Gregory, that was an excellent post. What you say is absolutely true about the other blogs. I had thought the same thing. It needs to be said loudly and clearly.

Rorate Caeli was indeed the first to make this matter internationally known. Of this I’m sure.

We are talking about an event on the 6th of June. I bet the Italian press would have not faced this if it hadn’t been picked up (probably from RC – where else? )by A. Tornielli.

But not to worry, even with the latest utterances from Pope Francis ,some of which are good – but should cause a chorus of disapproval from the Church’s enemies, instead, the "honeymoon" continues in the Italian press and media. You should see how they "doctor" this leaked report from the “private audience” with Pope Francis. From La Stampa they even have the gall to suggest that the homosexual lobby in the Vatican is made up mainly of conservatives and traditionalists and that Pope Francis is determined to sweep them all away, dragging in our wonderful Cardinal Burke’s name! All this SPECUUUULATION from a so-called private conversation! BAH! What lousy journalism!

When I think of how the same media crucified Benedict for much less…it makes my blood run cold or -boil – I cannot decide the best idiom to use as I am up and down like a yo yo with Holy Father Francesco these days!

What in heaven’s name is going on in Our Holy Church and what must we expect ?

But, despite all – it is great to be a Catholic and I love our Church so much…source of sanctifying grace, truth and beauty …and bastion against all evil! We have 2000 years of great saints and other wonders in civilization to prove this. And we still have many holy priests and faithful – who are keeping an eye on things and storming heaven with prayers!

Thanks to all here who make me feel less alone, as I sit on the edge of a pew, counting my holy beads and wondering what will happen next...






Robbie said...

When the conclave ended in March and Bergoglio's name was announced, I was shocked. I knew we were in for tough period, but I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I took Father Zuhlsdorf's words to heart that Bergoglio needed time to grow into the job (although I didn't really believe that should've been the case).

While it's just been three months, I feel I can no longer just shrug my shoulders. Shunning the trappings of the position he agreed to take was one thing. But giving a wink and nod to those progressive/modernists groups who might want to ignore the CDF was just wrong.

When I see the Pope discard traditional attire or speak endlessly and almost single mindedly about the need to minister to the poor, I'm reminded of Father Christian Bouchacourt's view that Bergoglio practiced "militant humility". This priest of the 1970's may not want the Church to be a NGO, but his actions seem to imply it should be.

Mike said...

Barbara, know that you are not alone! We are all perplexed and at times discouraged with these apparently weekly spasms of 'Francis-speak' - and know there is no truer and surer friend when sitting on the edge of the pew than your holy Rosary. I believe we MUST pray for the Holy Father - AND for one another, especially our Rorate family. I know I do, and will remember you especially today with prayers. God bless.

D. Pasquin said...

Counting rosaries?

I seem to recall an obligation to provide the number of times a sin is committed when I go to confession. And I am always assigned a number of prayers as penance.

But, then, who's counting?

Eugene said...

And it's only been less than three months.

James Kohn said...

just a heads up, this Blog was referenced on the Blaze today:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/06/12/a-gay-lobby-inside-the-vatican-pope-francis-leaked-private-speech-confirms-stunning-claims-of-internal-scandal/

DrAndroSF said...

I love the silly assumption in the prefacing remarks: "They spoke in a circle, among equals, as it happened in the first communities founded by Jesus..."

Completely unfounded hippie theology.

Long-Skirts said...

H.H. said:

"Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries... but this thing of counting... The people of God joined the Bishops…They have no vocations… But there they are, clinging to their buildings, clinging to money... “

THEY COUNT ROSARIES, DON'T THEY?

Yowsa! Yowsa! Yowsa!
Here they are again, with a Pope,
Ecumenical religious, kids
Aging but full of hope.

Yowsa! Yowsa! Yowsa!
As the clock of fate ticks away,
A marathon dance of destiny
How much longer can they stay?

Yowsa! Yowsa! Yowsa!
It's not a contest. It's a show.
I may not know a winner
But the destruction of the Faith, I know.

Yowsa! Yowsa! Yowsa!
The people of God on their perch,
But there only can be one winner
And that's Christ and His Catholic Church.

Yowsa! Yowsa! Yowsa!
"Why Tradition boy, the old way?"
"It's not about old; it's Truth, the Faith -
And they count Rosaries too, don't they?"

(my apologies to They Shoot Horses, Don't They?)

conure said...

I have to say I'm more impressed with RC these days; I had the gut feeling it was a bit too easy on the last pontificate.

Now you're striking a good balance between fairness and truthfulness. Ignoring or spinning ugly facts neo-cat or neo-trad style doesn't help the Church or anyone else. Whatever the truth behind this whole rosary-counting controversy (I don't have much of an opinion), I think it's important to confront possible scandals instead of explaining them away.

God Protect P. Francis and P.E. Benedict.

Adfero said...

Conure, we neither take it easy or go hard on any pope. We simply report what they say or do, good or bad. When people get mad at us on either side, it's usually that they're mad at the pope, and strike out at the messenger.

conure said...

Well, I get the impression that this site is does more 'negative' stories on Francis than Benedict, although I haven't counted (bad pun there). More of a gut feeling than anything based on hard numbers. It could likely be incorrect, as I only recently returned.

Some might argue that there's more negative things to be reported on, but I really don't think the last two Popes are *that* different on the whole. Benedict has a more traditional aesthetic and some other pluses, but I remember plenty of strange things being said and done during those years. After Paul VI/JPII, I guess any improvement would've excited people, though. It was relatively saner at least, and I pray for his health in retirement.

Gratias said...

Vatican II was a radical reformation of a Church that had endured for 20 centuries. There was remarkably little pushback to these changes. Rorate Caeli is part of the new Counterreformation, which is the duty of our times.

Barbara said...

Thank you so much for your prayers Mike! I too, pray for all here at Rorate!

What a blessing!

Barbara

Michele said...

The Holy Father should stick to his prepared remarks rather than speaking extemporaneously. That way the Vatican press office can publish his official remarks and the rest of us won't have to rely on pseudo-journalists who twist his words in order to propagate their agenda.

Pazzie said...

I'm keeping my eyes shut and waiting for the next Pope.