Rorate Caeli

Fair Comparison?

Pope Benedict, speaking to the Polish pilgrims in Saint Peter's Square, after this Sunday's Angelus:

Yesterday, we celebrated the memory of Saint Charles Borromeo. This commemoration calls us to associate the great reformer of the Church after the Tridentine Council with the great executor of the dispositions of the Second Vatican Council, John Paul II, Karol [Charles] Wojtyla.


Al Trovato said...

Try this:

Trent is to Vatican II/

as St. Charles Borromeo is to JPII.

That's about right to me.

Pierrot said...

He only said this in Polish ...

Gillibrand said...

Let's hope noone translated it then.

New Catholic said...

Yes, Pierrot, I know.

sacerdos15 said...

Noone can deny the bond between Benedict and JPII.Benedict served longer in the curia than anyone.JP would not accept his resignation and when Benedict (Ratzinger) begged the Holy Father to alow him to go home to Bavaria the Pope said no.If there ever was a vice-pope (maybe Merri devalle -forgive the spelling)it was Ratzinger.Ambassador Ray Flynn told a tv interviewer on mSNBC that when he first met JP he asked about the Clinton's administration's efforts in the Holy Land.Flynn told him and the Pope asked to be kept informed.Then JP grabbed hold of Flynn's hand and pulled him to himself and said softly,"If you have any problem here,see Ratzinger."Flynn said that was odd because Ratzinger had nothing to do with foreign affairs,but after the Pope repeated that, he withdrew saying nothing but being puzzled.

John Mastai said...

I think that it's rather clunky when grandiose historical analogies are contrived and forced in order to fuel the "John Paul the Great" campaign. However, looking at the context of how, when, and to whom Pope Benedict said these words, the remarks seem poignant and acceptable.

New Catholic said...

We report, you decide...

AmemusAthanasium said...

Fair comparison?

No. Saint Charles Borromeo created clarity and discipline among the faithful, Pope John Paul II disorder (liturgical, ecumenical, doctrinal) and confusion (Assisi I).

The comparison is megalomanic. Everybody could see that. St. Borromeo inspected the liturgy, the discipline, while from 1978 to 2005 the discipline and Mass attendance % dropped everywhere in the Catholic world.

I don't find this comparison acceptable, even if Benedict XVI wants to pacify the too nationalistic Polish John Paul II venerators. The Church does not thrive on emotions and pop stars. It thrives on simple saints, some even solitarian hermits.

Long-Skirts said...


The Pope
Is the Pope,
In cope,
Ya dope,

But never
Was there
Such a Pope,
To cope,

I hope
This Pope
Won't have
To grope

When he
Finally comes
To his

The Pope
Is the Pope,
Oh, yeah,
Not, nope,

But never
Was there
such a Pope
Oh, nope,

No trope
Of hope,
He makes
Me mope

But he's
And not

The Pope
Is the Pope,
Not soap

But never
Was there
Such a Pope
To lope

And schuss
On down
The slip'ry

But he's
I must

The Pope
Throws a rope

Oh, nope,
The Pope

I cannot
With so much

Just pray
For our
My friend!


Jeff said...

I take it that the question means an anwer is permitted?

Three cheers for Pope St. John Paul the Great!

--Who inspired untold numbers of vocations and Catholic families;

--Who gave us the indult against tremendous opposition and then expanded it (with little thanks from numerous grouches);

--Whose goodness and transparent sanctity inspired many to enter the Catholic Church;

--Who was an inspiration, guide, and mentor to the great Joseph Ratzinger;

--Who will certainly be beatified and canonized (a no brainer if ever there was one!)--the mere technical ratification of the overwhelming sense of the faithful (including Pope Benedict in his first address);

No, the comparison is not fair.

Great and inspiring as St. Charles was, he doesn't hold a candle to the superb and glorious Pope John Paul II, in whose debt I will ever greatly be.

Yes, yes, I know. Canonizing him doesn't mean he was a good Pope! Not any more than it means that St. Charles was a good bishop.

sacerdos15 said...

Jeff,thank you.I agree with your sentiments secundum quid.

New Catholic said...

Interesting assessment.

The ad limina visits of the German bishops began today. For several reasons, including those of a financial nature, the German Church has some of the most accurate statistics in the world.

I remembered to check the number of Catholics in the largest diocese in Bavaria, Munich-Freising. The percentage of Catholics in 1980 was of 75.9 % of the population (down less than 5% from 1970, quite a good result for those difficult years). But from 1980 to 2004, the percentage fell to 53.3% of the population...

We report, you decide.

Buddy Shepherd said...

Yes Jeff,

Let us cheer the Koran-kisser who allowed voodoo doctors to dance around the altar at Assisi while playing patty-cake with the Protestants.

Long-Skirts said...

Jeff said:
he doesn't hold a candle to the superb and glorious Pope John Paul II, in whose debt I will ever greatly be.

"There are none so blind..."

...just pray for the Pope's soul, my friend.

Litto froggy cross da pond
Hope some fairy's got a wand
Hit you hard up-side yo head
Shed some light...yo brains is bread.

You ain't got sense, no nuffin'
Brains is made of bran-flake muffin.
Wolfy-sheep done called you near
Ups you hopped, ran like a deer.

Him brother froggies followed too
And jumped right in wolf-sheepy's stew.
Then there you be all puffed with pride
And one by one them froggies died.

Then froggy Pop, he called, "My sons?"
And wolfy-sheep, his meal all dones,
Says, "Litto frog get outa' hea'.
Tomorrow bring yo sistas dea'."

And litto frog, he hop away
'Cause litto frog, he do obey.
And litto froggy hopped, hopped, hop,
Tumbled, tripped into his Pop.

And froggy Pop asked, "What you say?"
Said litto frog, "I do obey,
And all my litto brothers, too,
They helped the wolf make sheepy stew."

Then froggy Pop, him hung him head,
And took him son away and led
Him hoppin' down the woodsy lane
And put in froggy's hand his cane

All shiney white to help him see...

MacK said...

Quite a quantum leap in two names - a grand Roman Catholic saint in every sensus fidelium contrasted with a phenomenologist-ecumenist-pluralist. Well, how else will post-conciliarism be "authenticated" if it does not have its papal saint? The lead-in is obvious for us all to see. They'll find their "miracles" no matter what the cost to Catholic credibility.

S.H. said...

The most inappropriate comparison I've seen in a long time. And that's an understatement.

romanreb said...

I am fascinated by Long-skirts' poetry. Wow...

Buddy Shepherd said...

Of course, I pray for the soul of John Paul II. I hope like anything that he at least made it to Purgatory. He had a lot of 'plainin' to do.