Rorate Caeli

Important: Ecclesia Dei to ask seminaries to teach Traditional Mass

According to Italian news agency Adnkronos, the Pontifical Commission "Ecclesia Dei" will soon publish an order addressed to seminaries "in which it is required that the celebration of the Latin Mass be taught to future priests":
"According to what has been learned from authoritative sources, the dicastery presided by Cardinal Darío Castrillón Hoyos (among the main supporters of the return of the Mass according to the pre-Conciliar rite) would be considering a circular addressed to seminarians which, in practice, is aimed directly to those bishops who [are] 'disobbeying' the Pope's motu proprio (...)."
It is not entirely clear from the report if the order will be an exclusive document or if it will be part of the general document of clarification of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum which will be published shortly (according to several news agencies and sources).

UPDATE (Sunday, 2300 GMT): The news of this order which would be sent to seminaries was confirmed this Sunday by the Vaticanist of Italian daily La Stampa, Marco Tosatti. It remains unclear if this norm would be a specific document or if it would be part of the clarification document.

Tip: Le Forum Catholique.


Anonymous said...

I love our Holy Father and the news from the Vatican just keeps better and better.

(and the news from the USCCB--well, lets put that aside; it will take a while for them to catch up)

Anonymous said...

Well! All this is all leaving me breathless, and I'm on board.

Syriacus said...

My nightmare after Christmas:

AD 2008 :

New English Seminary Rector says:

"That's not how we do things here."

Anonymous said...

I agree, this is totally unexpected.

What will the poor seminarians do now, confronted with 2 sets of rubrics? though: if they cannot master 1 set of rubrics, this new directive will cause no small amount of confusion.

Augustinus said...

If true, it's good news after the depressing news about Middlesbrough. However, the instruction will not apply to seminaries in England and Wales.

john mastai said...

"if they cannot master 1 set of rubrics"

If they cannot even master one set, then they shouldn't even be ordained until they are able to do so. What is the most important thing that a priest does? Offer the Sacrifice of the Mass; a priest engaged in a sacred ritual. Of course, there are 7 sacraments and many facets to the priesthood, but first things have to be put first and we must move away from the emphasis on a priest being primarily a "nice guy" or a "social worker" or an "entertaining and informative speaker".

A seminarian said...

I am curious about this as Ecclesia Dei does not have the authority to dictate seminary curricula. Only the Congregation for Catholic Education has that authority. And we all noticed that the new secretary of this congregation (M. Rev. Jean-Louis Bruguès, O.P.) is no friend to the TLM. However, we could be surprised...

Andrew said...

Well this is hopeful! And of course let's pray that they actually learn Latin while they're at it, since that's something that's been ignored for forty years or so.

Anonymous said...

I think it is outrageous for the Pope to continue to appoint men so radically against Catholic tradition....and by extension against the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

Ottaviani said...

I think it is outrageous for the Pope to continue to appoint men so radically against Catholic tradition....and by extension against the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

The Vatican has been penetrated by an intelligent network of Freemasons and Communists since the early 50s at least. What else do you expect?

Anonymous said...

I knew about the Communists and Freemasons infiltrating the Vatican. Take a wild guess who helped put them there in the early 1950's, up until 1954. Everyone take a wild guess.........time's up!
He became one of the most infamous Popes in modern times!!! Giovanni Battista Montini...Pope Paul VI.
He was a known sympathizer/dialoger with Communists while still a member of Pope Pius XII's inner circle. He was reported about to the Pope, who quickly booted him out of the Vatican to Milan as Archbishop in 1954.
John XXIII also a dialoger and not a fighter of Communism/Freemasonry as was Pius XII, made Montini a Cardinal in his very first consistory in 1958. And in 1963, Montini succedded John....the rest is sad Vatican history.
The Church is where it is thanks to Paul VI.

Anonymous said...

If seminaries are required to teach Latin and then don't, why would anyone ever expect them to teach the 1962 Missal when they're asked.

Papabile said...

Nobody actually knows what the scope of the PCED is, as all the congregations and commissions have secret codiciles that outline theiractual authority.

William said...

Nobody actually knows what the scope of the PCED is...

That is interesting. Maybe the scope of the PCED is described by its name?

poeta said...

Perhaps the idea is that, if the Holy Father requires all seminaries to teach the Extraordinary Form, there will at least be a few seminaries with rectors of good conscience who'll make an effort to do so.

Starting with the mustard seed, if you will.

Fr. J said...

I'll bet that the document will only offer the suggestion based on the raw logic of learning the TLM. Syllogism : Seminarians are to learn how to pray the liturgy/ The TLM is a liturgy of the Church/ Seminarians are to learn the TLM. I honestly can't see how a bishop, seminary rector, or a seminarian not see the need to learn it.

Anonymous said...

I think that this will be good for both the seminarian and the Church. Some men that I know of are just as uninformed as some of the faithful. A couple of months ago this issue came up in a panel discussion at my seminary and at the time there was no clear answer of what way the leadership of the seminary would lean towards.

Tom S. said...

Re: The duties and jurisdiction of PCED, Rmember the last two articles of Summorum Pontificum:

Art. 11 The Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” (5) , erected by John Paul II in 1988, continues to exercise its function. Said Commission will have the form, duties and norms that the Roman Pontiff wishes to assign it.

Art. 12 This Commission, apart from the powers it enjoys, will exercise the authority of the Holy See, supervising the observance and application of these dispositions.

Therefore I conclude, they are in charge of whatever the Holy Father says they are in charge of...

moin said...

This is great news. As for the USCCB, well, it would be beneficial to have them disbanded for a period of 5 years, during which time Bishop Bruskewicz would be named Primate of the U.S. This would likely encourage better obedience by the bishops to Pope Benedict, whom I believe is the current instrument through which God is saving His Church.

Anonymous said...

Too many good Catholics like those who inhabit this board are naive when discussing Roman affairs. Rome is a paper tiger: the bishops are outmanuevering this pope because of his age. They smile and do what they want. Look at the latest statement from Bishop Gracida stating that the 1964 vernacularized 62 Missal may be used to fulfill the directives of the motu proprio. After this Pontiff's demise, "les deluge" contra Catholics of tradition. Sorry to be the pessimist.

Anonymous said...

I remember a time when Martini was
definately going to succeed John Paul II. Now that was what I call REAL pessimism.

Anonymous said...

"Art. 12 This Commission, apart from the powers it enjoys, will exercise the authority of the Holy See, supervising the observance and application of these dispositions."

This is only wishful thinking. The Commission does not superceed the powers of the congregation for catholic education, which is the feud of iconoclasts.

Anonymous said...

There are two Sacred Congregations (on second thought, 4), which should be overhauled, cleaned out, replaced of the "filth of the Church" as the then Cardinal Ratzinger referred to such purveyors of error . They are:

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Banish Levada, 71 who is a absolute heretic from his time in San Francisco....and it was he who lobbied tthe weak Benedict XVI to put in Niederauer into San Francisco. Replace Levada with Amato, 67.

Congregations for the Sacraments:
Banish/Sack Arinze, 75- one of the most outspoken men against the Motu Proprio in the Curia Romana, and who did his utmost to sow dissention about it. Replace him with Ranjinth, 59.

Congregation for Catholic Education: sack the John Paul II cronie Cardinal who is in office now. Replace him with a traditionalist

Congeregation for Bishops: Sack the corrupt and radical dissident Giovanni Battista Re, nearly 74 (another JP II associate). Replace him with a real Catholic. Clean out this entire congregation from top to bottom.

When these offices are purged, then Benedict XVI might be able to begin to reign as Pope without having to worry about infighting constantly.

Also, one of the worst dissenters/modernists was Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who this week turns 80, and is inelligible to participate in Papal elections. However, his radical liberal network of priests in the Vatican is still operative....and includes the likes of Piero Marini, 65 etc.

I doubt that Pope Benedict XVI will make it, but it will take a good 10 more years to clean these people (to use acceptable language) out of office. They are all JP II appointees, and will probably be replaced, or retire due to age. But it will take 15+ years to clean up and re-Catholicise the Curia after the mess left by 26 years of John Paul II letting things just slide. He had absolutely no interest in anything of the governance of the Church, preferring just to travel.
Thus, the disaster in the Vatican facing this Pope, and the next.
Despite the pessimism of some, remember that nearly all of the John Paul II cardinals who are "Papabile" are all near 70. If Benedict XVI lasts 5-8 more years (possible), these men will be too old to be either electable, or a big influence in the Vatican.
With Sodano out of the picture finally, things might improve.

**By the way, one of the very worst of the dissident liberal Cardinals just died. Stephen Fumio Hamao of Japan at 77. May he rest in Peace, but he was a radical progressive dissenter and the group He represented in the Vatican is still there. Aging rapidly...but still there.

Anonymous said...

Let's pray for this one. I hope it is true. At the same time I have a hard time believing that it will require seminaries to teach everyone the ancient Mass. It seems more likely that it would ask them to make such teaching available...but who knows. I still can't get all the rumors leading to the motu proprio out of my head...September, Decemember...any minute now...any minute...
Still the Motu Proprio went beyond our expectations in many ways...may the Providence do the same with these new rumors.

Anonymous said...

This is a great idea for getting seminarians who, no doubt, will attend the March for Life interested in the extraordinary form:

Anonymous said...

to Anonymous

no one's our side?(hoyos, estevez and???

Ambrosius said...

Though it's concerned with secular rather than sacred authority, this discussion made me think of this poem by A.D. Hope:

The Pleasure of Princes
What pleasures have great princes? These: to know
Themselves reputed mad with pride or power;
To speak few words -- few words and short bring low
This ancient house, that city with flame devour;

To make old men, their father's enemies,
Drunk on the vintage of the former age;
To have great painters show their mistresses
Naked to the succeeding time; engage

The cunning of able, treacherous ministers
To serve, despite themselves, the cause they hate,
And leave a prosperous kingdom to their heirs
Nursed by the caterpillars of the state;

To keep their spies in good men's hearts; to read
The malice of the wise, and act betimes;
To hear the Grand Remonstrances of greed
Led by the pure; cheat justice of her crimes;

To beget worthless sons and, being old,
By starlight climb the battlements, and while
The pacing sentry hugs himself for cold,
Keep vigil like a lover, muse and smile,

And think, to see from the grim castle steep
The midnight city below rejoice and shine:
"There my great demon grumbles in his sleep
And dreams of his destruction, and of mine."

Anonymous said...

The wolves in Rome are ravenous, and won't leave easily. This is part of Ratzinger's plan of synthesis with evil and good, as though evil had any supernatural power akin to Jesus's eternal good! VatII after 40 years, and they still can't get it right. Right means the Great Council of Trent,and Vatican I-Period! Saint Joan of Arc-Pray For Us Sheep!

PuxaAsturies said...

To the "anonymous" writer that named the Offices and Bishops that need replacing, that was a great piece. You should be proud enough to identify yourself. The Modernist need to be identified.

Pauli said...

What will the poor seminarians do now, confronted with 2 sets of rubrics? though: if they cannot master 1 set of rubrics, this new directive will cause no small amount of confusion.

Do you think men called by God to be priests are stupid? This is a little like suggesting that a trucker would become confused as he attempts to drive a Toyota, or that a veterinary student can't learn the anatomy of more than one type of animal. I hope you're being strangely sarcastic, otherwise you are merely being silly.

Anonymous said...

This is needed. Even Cardinal Pell that champion of cerebral orthodoxy but not material orthodoxy. His own seminary Rector? Auxiliary Bishop Julian Porteous (charismatic) has ignored the whole subject. Even seminarian requests regarding the MP have been greated with silence. Seminarians have to be careful because they could still be thrown out of the seminary! Incidentally the seminary training those in formation received was substandard. (WYD will be an event of one liturgical abuse after another.) On the ground nothing really changes.

Seminarians are longing for an identity. The Old Mass because it is so stylised and rubrical is freedom. The whole symbolic and structure it has. The sacral character it has will form and influence the Novus Ordo.

Anonymous said...

The opposition of some in the current hierarchy to the TLM is quite easy to understand: they do not believe in the theology of the TLM, and have fought it tooth and nail since Montini-Suenens. Montini's claptrap Novus Ordo, mastered by Bugnini, radically changed the theology of sacrifice and prayer - and contributed immensely to the pedophilia of his Priests who have little, if any, belief in the sacred Body and Blood present as real in their hands. How do you bugger a boy if you believe you hold Divinity in your hands every morning, after all? Woytyla was not that much of help in restoring doctrine because of his own background in his pre-Priesthood Poland days and questions on how he could be blackmailed for certain secrets he withheld from those who ordained him...

Ratzinger should have thrown out the Novus Ordo, called it what it was, and gone back to the Aposolic Constiitution of his saintly predecessor Pius V whose "Quo Primum" declaraion declared the Latin Mass to be the Mass of the Roman Rite in perpetutiy. I guess Montini just didn't give a crap about what his predecessor said. For my own view, I am quite certain Montini will never enjoy the Beatific vision. For justice, though delayed in our eyes, is never by Divinity. We all pay for what we have done or failed to do. And that includes Giovanni Montini.

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