Rorate Caeli

Roadmap for Holy See - SSPX doctrinal talks established

According to French Rome-based religious news agency I.Media, as reported by Italian news agency ASCA (translation by Father Zuhlsdorf):

This morning the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith discussed how to begin the doctrinal dialogue with the Lefebvrite Preiestly Fraternity of St. Pius X, for whom four bishops – among whom is the negationist [Bp.] Richard Williamson – Pope Benedict XVI in February revoked an excommunication. 

According to the French agency I.Media, the cardinals of the ex-Holy Office – to whom Pope Ratzinger entrusted the dialogue wiht the Lefebvrites in view of their eventual reinstatement, in the future, in the structure of the Church – discussed a text "drawn up to clarify the parameter of the doctrinal dialogue with the Fraternity". This dialogue should start with the necessity "of accepting the Second Vatican Council and the Magisterium of the Pope" subsequent to the Council. 

According to I.Media, the Superior of the Lefebvrites, [Bp.] Bernard Fellay, was received at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on 5 June last and, even if there hasn’t been identified the "team" which on the two sides will effectively conduct the dialogue, it is probable that there will take part the Swiss Domincan Fr. Charles Morerod, the new Secretary for the International Theological Commission and, on the part of the Lefebvrites, Fr. [l’abbate] Gregoire Celier, co-author of a recent book on Benedict XVI. 

Meanwhile, as the "doctrinal" dialogue with the Vatican moves along its first steps, the Lefebvrites have decided to challenge again the authority of the of the Pope, announcin the ordination of at least 21 new priests in three parts of the world

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

"...the Lefebvrites have decided to challenge again the authority of the of the Pope, announcin the ordination of at least 21 new priests in three parts of the world"

Unless of course the Holy See has given permission for the ordinations to take place.
Which, if they do take place, is most likely the case.

Overall this sounds like a good beginning to the meetings.

Just trying to Understand said...

To anybody,

Is this the same with regards to the Orthodox Church?

Why doesn't anybody put up a fuss when the Orthodox Church ordains priests?

Prodinoscopus said...

My bet is that the Holy Father has given at least tacit approval for the ordinations. We need good priests for the salvation of souls. Surely the Holy Father recognizes the need for the ordinations to proceed. The salvation of souls is the highest law.

The SSPX bishops have been ordaining priests on a regular basis for the past 20 years and no one has noticed. Now it's big news. A sign of divine providence, I think.

Anonymous said...

"The SSPX bishops have been ordaining priests on a regular basis for the past 20 years and no one has noticed. Now it's big news."
Prodinoscopus:

I agree with what you say.
Its been more like 30 years that the Pious Union has been ordaining priests.

Anonymous said...

The author is incredulous. The bishops of France who have zero ordinations underway, and not a single Mass in a real church parish in many dioceses there. These are purportedly the "obedient" bishops, along with "obedient" priests in England, whose key cardinal O'Connor, condemned, "condemned"!, Pope BXVI for removing exc decrees from the sspx - these are the models of obedience.

Meanwhile, the sspx, offerring 12 million rosaries for his holiness, actually have new ordinations to conduct in all areas of the world. These are the disobedient ones.

One can only pray that His Holiness sees the insanity in all this "Catholic" media.

Jordanes said...

Why doesn't anybody put up a fuss when the Orthodox Church ordains priests? ***

Because the Orthodox have been definitively severed from the church for centuries and do not profess to be Catholics in union with the Pope, whereas the SSPX is not definitively severed and insists that it is Catholic and accepts papal authority, but has been functioning apart from the church's hierarchical and canonical framework.

The SSPX bishops have been ordaining priests on a regular basis for the past 20 years and no one has noticed. ***

During that time there seemed to be little progress, or even chance of progress, toward reconciliation, but since 7 July 2007 and especially since the pope remitted the SSPX bishops' excommunications, it is clear that there is momentum toward healing the breach -- and not everybody is happy about that.

Anonymous said...

Why should they be challenging the authority of the pope by the ordinations? Neither side has agreed to anything yet. According to the same logic, their priests should not be offering Masses daily, nor their faithful receiving communion until they are regularized. Of course the Vatican would not dare touch that one...

Anonymous said...

Anon. writes:

"Meanwhile, the sspx, offerring 12 million rosaries for his holiness, actually have new ordinations to conduct in all areas of the world. These are the disobedient ones."

Excellent point. It would be hard for a Pope of our vocationless times to say, Thou shalt not ordain men to the sacred priesthood and diaconate! How DARE you make new priests!

It would be one thing to say that if vocations were booming in NewChurch. But when they are rare, forbidding healthy young men from becoming priests looks--and is--barmy.

The gents in the Secretariat of State, above all, will realise this in a flash. Good apperances is what that dicastery is all about.

P.K.T.P.

Just trying to Understand said...

Jordannes,

You mentioned: "Because the Orthodox have been definitively severed from the church for centuries and do not profess to be Catholics in union with the Pope, whereas the SSPX is not definitively severed and insists that it is Catholic and accepts papal authority, but has been functioning apart from the church's hierarchical and canonical framework

I would argue that the same could be said with the Orthodox Church when Pope Paul VI lifted their excommunication status.

The Orthodox Church recognizes the Theological and Philosophiical truth of the Primacy of Peter, yet they are selective in their assent to it by constructing convincing arguments against it. They acknowledge Petrine Primacy but refuse submission to it. With this in mind, could it not be said that the Orthodox Church can be considered as recognizing Papal authority and "functioning apart from the Church's hierarchical and canonical framework", in relation to the their excommunication status being lifted by Paul VI. Therefore, my question remains why no one puts up a fuss when the Orthodox Church ordains priests?

Tradition On The Line said...

Seems it's not so easy for some Novus Ordo Catholics to resign themselves to 'obedience'any more.

Excommunications revoked, Tridentine Rite restored... still Lefebvrites...

Hmmm.

Steve Sanborn

Jordanes said...

I would argue that the same could be said with the Orthodox Church when Pope Paul VI lifted their excommunication status. ***

No, it's not the same thing at all. The Orthodox Churches broke with the Catholic Church long ago, whereas the SSPX's troubles with the Church only began in the 1970s and 1980s. Also, while Pope Paul VI lifted the excommunications pertaining to the Orthodox, that did not reintegrate them into the Church. As a comparison, note that the Protestant sects also are not excommunicated, but that absence of a canonical excommunication obviously doesn't give them proper status as Catholics.

The Orthodox Church recognizes the Theological and Philosophiical truth of the Primacy of Peter, yet they are selective in their assent to it by constructing convincing arguments against it. They acknowledge Petrine Primacy but refuse submission to it. ***

There are probably a few Orthodox who acknowledge some version of Petrine Primacy, but it's not the Catholic doctrine of Petrine Primacy -- and most Orthodox do not acknowledge Petrine Primacy at all. I believe it's a not at all uncommon view among the Orthodox that the Bishop of Rome is apostate and that the Catholic Church does not have valid sacraments. The SSPX, of course, do not hold anything like that sort of belief, though language such as "Modernist Rome" or "Conciliar Rome" does raise the question of whether some in the SSPX might think the pope is a heretic and not legitimately pope at all, or whether they might think the Holy See has forfeited its right or ability to exercise the primacy.

With this in mind, could it not be said that the Orthodox Church can be considered as recognizing Papal authority and "functioning apart from the Church's hierarchical and canonical framework", in relation to the their excommunication status being lifted by Paul VI. ***

No, that cannot be said, for the reasons aforestated.

Anonymous said...

"This dialogue should start with the necessity "of accepting the Second Vatican Council and the Magisterium of the Pope" subsequent to the Council."

Accept the Council?...Yes, they will.

Accept what came from it....DON'T BET ON IT.

Good for the SSPX if they don't.

Anonymous said...

""...the Lefebvrites have decided to challenge again the authority of the of the Pope, announcin the ordination of at least 21 new priests in three parts of the world"

They have not challenged anybody. And good gor them and God Bless them for having ordained 550+ priests over the last 30 years!!! And now having 240 additional seminarians and 125 brothers.

What Vatican II Order can boast (besides the corrupt and disgraced Legionaries of Christ), 550 new priests in 30 years? ZERO.

Five maybe.....but not 550!!!!

LOL!! : )

Anonymous said...

Quote:
Because the Orthodox have been definitively severed from the church for centuries...

Definitively severed from the Church? My good fellow in Christ Jordanes, you're sounding rather "old school" there; you will do well to brush up on the "New Theology." In the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of the Church Understood as Communion (1992), the CDF tells us that schismatic bodies are “particular Churches” united to the Catholic Church by “close bonds.” And in the new Catechism, we learn that Catholics' communion with schismatic orthodox Churches is “so profound” that it “lacks little to attain the fullness.”

Some severing, indeed!

Jordanes said...

Yes, all of that is true (and I'm quite familiar with and agree with the texts you cite) -- but none of it changes the fact that the Orthodox Churches are not in full and formal communion with the Catholic Church. Their breach is far wider and of much, much greater duration than the breach that exists between the Church and the SSPX.

Anonymous said...

IN support of L.O.L.:

This business of 'defying' Rome is b.s. cooked up by the conehead German bishops. They need to exercise the little grey cells--if they have any. From what I've seen they don't have one brain to rub against the other.

Again, Fellay never 'accepted' the Decree of 21st January. That is pure bunk; it's a wild fantasy existing only in the retarded mind of Bishop Müller. Fellay said SPECIFICALLY AND DIRECTLY that he *thanked* the Pope for the action and then he reiterated THAT THE SOCIETY HAD NEVER ACCEPTED THE VALIDITY OF THE EXCOMMUNICATIONS in the first place. Duh!

To thank someone for offering you an ice cream cone is not the same thing as accepting it. I might thank the giver for the gesture but then refuse the cone if I'm on a diet. In this case, Bishop Fellay is dieting from nonsense, such as the clown Masses provided by the German bishops.

So Fellay never accepted the validity of the 1988 censure of excommunication; in fact, in the very act of thanking the Pope for his gesture, Fellay denied that such a penality had ever existed in the first place, and you cannot 'accept' the remission of something that does not exist. You can only thank the offerer for his good will he removing what that giver thinks is there.

These German bishops are now trying to create their own reality, since the one outside the window is too painful to consider. And that's because it was their own incompetence which created the reality in Europe today, in which the Faith is almost dead.

P.K.T.P.

Anonymous said...

This argument will never be settled.
Never.
The libs will die before they allow freedom for the Latin Mass.
The overwhelming majority of bishops in the USA are screaming libs, and most of them are marginally "catholic."
It's over till they all finally face God. Then we will have to wait for the new ones to acquire orthodoxy.
We shall all be dead before peace returns to the Catholic Church.
So, why bother with "meetings." The heretics and libs have already won. The last 40 years cannot be undone.
Et alibi aliorum ...

Anonymous said...

I pray the talks bring a greater clarity for the SSPX and bring about faculties, but almost more importantly an announcement from Our Holy Father clearing up the ambiguities for lay people so that individuals in the pews, not privy to such talk and theology, get a fresh perspective on what they should be doing from now on if they did not do it before in light of tradition. Any incorrect implementations should be undone and SC should be explained in a clear, unambiguous way by our Holy Pope now. It is his voice after this difficult road which will echo across the globe. Keeping what was decided as an incorrect interpretations should not be swept under the rug or left up to the SSPX to explain. The Pope is still the leader of the Church.

Gideon Ertner said...

"So, why bother with 'meetings."

Er... because, Deo volente, these meetings will help clarify to the wider Christian faithful what the doctrine of the Church is on salient points and begin a counter-offensive against the Liberal tendencies in the contemporary Church.

"The heretics and libs have already won. The last 40 years cannot be undone."

No, they can't, but no-one's saying we have to wait another 40 years before things can start getting better.

Tradition On The Line said...

Is Anon joking? The New Theology, the new catechism?

How then has 25 years of SSPX "schism" been so scandalous for Novus Ordo Catholics?

According to you, there was really little to worry about for anyone... regardless of their position.

Anon, you would do well to see St. Paul when it comes to the use of the word "New". I believe others have already posted quotes from the saints and doctors regarding novelty. It is to be rejected.

Anon, I'll assume, based on your message that you are a liberal. If I'm incorrect, please let me know.

But I would like to know from your position, how can Catholic Theology be "New"? What does that say of the near 2,000 years of Catholic doctrine and dogma prior to Vatican II?

Steve Sanborn

Anonymous said...

Quote:
Is Anon joking? The New Theology, the new catechism?

Yes, Steve, I was joking. The absurdity of it all. Lord, please deliver us from the chaos!

Tradition On The Line said...

Anon - gotcha... sorry, I'm focused on other work things and seeing messages periodically... hard to read into tone, intent, etc...

Thanks for the clarification.

Steve

Anonymous said...

one thing why this coming ordination come under scrunity is this:
after the excommunication of the sspx bishops were lifted, they have not yet receive the canonical authority to ordain anyone.

well actually the whole of sspx members are canonically under suspensio ad divinis, and the fact that they exercise sacramental function is worth of another suspension or excommunication.

Anonymous said...

Regarding ordination in the eastern churches, they are sui iuris church (orthodox or catholic alike).
their bishops has jurisdiction to ordain priest without need consulting Rome.

the same is not the case with sspx, which is an organization within the Latin Church. Thus all their priests should subject to Ordinaries of Latin Church.
Also their canonical status is within regulation of Latin Church Canon Law.

Tradition On The Line said...

Anon,

The reason for this suspensio ad divinis?

The cause for it?

Steve Sanborn

Anonymous said...

Just wondering where the Abbe de Nantes,- http://www.crc-internet.org/- fits into the scheme of things?

The Abbe seems to have a similar illegal suppression and they are not sedes. I would say they are similar to the SSPX.

Thanks for your comments.

Anon,
On behalf of anonymous Catholic Bloggers

Anonymous said...

Anon. wrote:

"the same is not the case with sspx, which is an organization within the Latin Church. Thus all their priests should subject to Ordinaries of Latin Church.
Also their canonical status is within regulation of Latin Church Canon Law."

Not necessarily. Fellay has been offered his own particular church since 2000. This would be an apostolic administration covering most of the world and being attached to persons of a particular liturgical character. See Section 2 of Canon 372. It would be a Campos writ large. The Campos precedent of 2002 proves that the S.S.P.X can be reconciled without being subject to the local bishops. Bishop Rifan of the Apostolic Administratino of John-Mary Vianney has a structure which is equall in law to the local Diocese of Campos as 100% indpendent of it.

P.K.T.P.

Mark said...

I wonder occasionally if B16 does not mind at all the work being carried out by the SSPX and is more than happy for the process to take place which will 'force' his hand in terms of 'clarifications' regarding V2 and the questions of the liturgy?

He has been in Rome a long time and undoubtedly knows the force which is necessary to move the bureaucracy.

Anonymous said...

except that fellay and friends has not receive faculties and jurisdiction since the excommunication was lifted.

also, the offer is not yet realized. it will be the case IF the regularization is succeeded. this is still a fantasy at the moment, a jurisdiction offered not yet established.

Jordanes said...

The reason for this suspensio ad divinis? The cause for it? ***

Because they are Catholic priests who were ordained without the permission of the local ordinary by Catholic bishops who were consecrated without papal approval.

Peter said...

Suspension a divinis is suspended every time a faithful asks for a sacrament or an act of governance (canon 1335).

Janet Baker said...

I have read the learned comments here with great interest. I am one of those people who are praying the rosary for this great cause. Yesterday I prayed four. Wednesday, lost in South Chicago, I prayed seven! (Those familiar with that area will understand!) I urge you to join me. Just carry a rosary, or one of those easy little rosary wheels, and do it a decade at a time. Beg Our Lady! And of course one can add one's own intentions.

Yes, SSPX will continue as always, in hope of the outcome of the 'dialogue.' Because the issues that trouble the Church are well known, well communicated ("Iota Unum," for example; the hardbound is available cheaper at Angelus Press than at Amazon), well documented, it will be possible to fix what is broken. Meanwhile, why not continue as usual? And SSPX will probably go on exactly as usual after it is fixed, except perhaps with better connections to some collegial help on choir training, school supplies, that sort of thing. In Guadalajara, one parish I know well, the various women will still be going out on Saturdays in teams, carrying big armfuls of Catholic spiritual books to sell in the neighborhoods, books that the novus ordo world no longer reads much, or carries. In Chicago, today, a rainy Saturday, the SSPX parish will donate far more than its proportionate share of rescuers outside abortion mills, myself among them. And they will continue to ordain priests, real priests who will stand in pulpits and preach the gospel and tell us some home truths about ourselves. And while I do not know as much as the learned gentlemen on this comment page, I know the real thing when I see it. I can't properly express my gratitude for it.

All those who love tradition and presently exist and function within the presently unfixed, broken, bizarre Novus Ordo world will be so very glad when it is fixed, and not the least will be an end to the painful contortions that are necessary to live and function there.

Jordanes said...

Suspension a divinis is suspended every time a faithful asks for a sacrament or an act of governance (canon 1335). ***

That's not what the canon says. Canon 1335 says, "If a censure prohibits the celebration of sacraments or sacramentals or the placing of an act of governance, the prohibition is suspended whenever it is necessary to care for the faithful in danger of death. If a latae sententiae censure has not been declared, the prohibition is also suspended whenever a member of the faithful requests a sacrament or sacramental or an act of governance; a person is permitted to request this for any just cause."

You can't just go up to any suspended priest and request a sacrament, sacramental, or act of governance for any reason, and the suspension will be suspended. That would be the same as the priest not being suspended at all -- there'd be no point in suspension a divinis at all if that were the case. It has to be for any "just" reason -- and that only applies to suspended priests whose suspensions were "automatic" (latae sententiae), not to those whose suspensions have been declared or imposed. As far as I know, most SSPX priests are under a latae sententiae suspension, not an imposed or declared suspension.

New Catholic said...

Thank you, Mrs./Miss Baker. Praying is what we should do at all times regarding these great things unfolding before our eyes.

NC

Anonymous said...

Jordanes,

Yeah, but how many faithful, Canon Law unsavvy Catholics who assist at FSSPX Masses and confessions, are schooled in that Canon Law?
Most do not read this blog or do not have access to the internet and when they see a confession line in front of a confessional with a priest in it they assume that they will have their mortal sins forgiven there.

How can the Holy Father not inform these "poor uniformed Catholics", that these priests have no faculties.

Even the ones who really believe that there is "ecclesia supplet", when they have been told otherwise?

Peter said...

Jordanes: When you can't rely on other priests - it is a "just cause". Danger of death has nothing to do in this case.

Dan Hunter: When you see a priest in a confessional, wearing a stole, and you don't know even what jurisdiction is - you confession will be obviously valid. Confessions and marriages in the SSPX are invalid in general, but when you can't find a catholic priest with faculties who will hear your confession, or can find only ones who habitually rape the liturgy - or other priests in the confessional tell you things like "it's not a sin providing you love each other" - it's not THAT simple.

Pete said...

On June 29, 1975, Archbishop Lefebvre ordained three priests against the directive of Pope Paul VI and was declared suspended "a divinis." That event marked the canonical beginning of the separation between SSPX and the Holy See. That was the appropriate time for rending one's garments, wringing one's hands, crying to the heavens and making other ostentatious displays of shock and disapproval.

Getting upset by SSPX ordinations since then (as if they represented fresh insults against the Holy See) is transparently dishonest. Those who want to poison relations between the two parties are teaming up with those who like to exploit controversies for personal gain.