Rorate Caeli

The Situation of the Classical Roman Rite in Ireland, two years after Summorum Pontificum

CUMANN AN AIFRINN LAIDINIGH/LATIN MASS SOCIETY OF IRELAND www.latinmassireland.org
Metropolitan sees are given in block capitals and their suffragan sees follow in alphabetic order. The report follows

ARMAGH: Extraordinary Form Mass has occurred on a few occasions in the primatial see in the past two years - in Cookestown, Co Tyrone; in Clohogue Church outside Newry,Co Armagh; and in St Patrick's Cathedral, Armagh. However, there seems to be little enthusiasm in the archdiocese for anything more regular than occasional Masses at present. There is interest in the traditional Mass among younger clergy and seminarists of the archdiocese. Cardinal Brady has made some positive statements about the older liturgy, but much of administration in the archdiocese is delegated to the Auxilliary, Mgr Gerard Clifford, who seems to favour a strict interpretation of Summorum Pontificum.

Ardagh & Clonmacnois: The Bishop of Ardagh & Clonmacnois, Mgr Colm O'Reilly, offered the extraordinary form Latin Mass himself in in Edgeworthstown, Co Longford to commemorate the bicentenary of the death of Mgr Henry Essex Edgeworth de Firmont in Septmeber 2007. This drew an impressive crowd, particularly from Counties Longford and Westmeath. However, there has been no local effort in the diocese to secure any further Mass, in spite of evidence of interest by at least one of the diocese's younger priests.

Clogher: The traditional Mass took place in Clones, Co Monaghan in May 2009. Clones is a parish in the centre of the diocese, spanning the border between Counties Monaghan and Fermanagh (this is the physically unnatural border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland which partitions parishes as well as dioceses). There is enthusiasm for the traditional Mass in this diocese, among laity and a number of both older and younger clergy. The diocesan bishop, Mgr Joseph Duffy, is an ardent Francophile and no lover of the older liturgy, but he is already past retirement age. However, he has not stood in the way of recent initiatives and there have been a couple of extraordinary form nuptial Masses in the diocese since the promulgation of the motu proprio.

Derry: The Bishop of Derry, Mgr Séamus Ó hEigeartaigh, is an ardent Germannophile and the strongest supporter of the extraordinary form among the Irish bishops. This enthusiasm is not shared by a group of influential priests in the diocese. This stalemate is slowly eroding. The bishop paid for several clergy to attend the Latin Mass Society of Ireland's courses for priests wishing to learn to say the traditional Mass in Co Donegal. Mass is now available on Holy Days of Obligation in St Columba's, Long Tower in Derry City since December 2008, but in reality the provision is less restrictive than this. It was possible to attend the extraordinary form Mass almost every day in Derry over the past few months.

Down & Connor: The LMSI was running Mass in St Paul's on the Falls Road (West Belfast) a few times a year since August 2005. Since April 2008, Mass has been available in this church on the First Saturday every month - permission was given by the former bishop, Mgr Patrick Walsh in his last few weeks in office. By way of exception, Solemn High Mass was offered in St Patrick's Church, Donegall St (Belfast's city centre) on the Feast of the Assumption. The Assumption Day Mass drew more impressive crowds than the monthly Mass. A number of extraordinary form Requiem Masses have been permitted since the present bishop, Mgr Noel Traenor took office. There appears to be growing interest among diocesan priests and seminarists.

Dromore
: The first public extraordinary form Latin Mass with diocesan approval took place within a week of the motu proprio in the Dominican Church in Newry, Co Down in September 2007. Since then, there have been a number of Masses in and around Newry varying between the Dromore diocese and Armagh Archdiocese. From June 2009, a Mass has taken place on the first Sunday of every second month in the Poor Clares, High St, Newry. The Bishop of Dromore, Mgr John McAreavey, invited Father David Jones to come from Meath to say this Mass. As this convent will close soon, this provision will have to be revised. Newry has a sizable congregation at an SSPX Mass every Sunday.

Kilmore: Only one extraordinary form Mass has ever taken place in the Kilmore diocese: a nuptial Mass in 1995 in Co Cavan. In the past few years, a native of this diocese became the third Irishman ordained into the SSPX. There has been some activity to seek a Mass in the western deaneries of the diocese, but there has been no sign of success yet.

Meath
: There have been two significant developments in the Meath diocese. First, Father David Jones O Praem is attempting to incardinate into the diocese as a hermit within the Praemonstratentian family at the invitation of the Bishop of Meath, Mgr Michael Smith. He offers either the extraordinary form of the Roman Mass or the old Praemonstratentian liturgy almost daily at the Hermitage in Duleek, Co Meath, while offering confession, spiritual direction and retreats. Since December 2008, there has been a Sunday Mass in the Visitation Convent in Stamullen, Co Meath. When the Bishop of Dromore invited Father Jones to offer the traditional Mass in Newry, this schedule was disturbed. However, the LMSI chaplain, Father Michael Cahill was made parish priest of Kilbeg, Co Meath last year, so from the last Sunday of September, Mass in the Meath diocese will take place every Sunday in St Michael's Church, Stahalmog, Co Meath at 1 pm.

Raphoe: Sunday Mass in the older form continues in Bruckless, Co Donegal every Sunday, as it has since 1999. The status of the First Friday Mass in Golan, Co Donegal is unknown as Father Kevin Driver has returned to England. However, the availability of Mass on an occasional basis at Ards Capuchin Friary is a possibility. Some monks of Flavigny have been conducting an annual Ignatian retreat for men in this friary with the tradtional Mass. This has also been the venue for a course run by the LMSI for priests wishing to say the traditional Mass. Mass is also said every year on the feast of the Assumption in the cathedral in Letterkenny. Several priests and seminarists of this diocese are interested in the extraordinary form Latin Mass.

DUBLIN: The most dramatic development in the Dublin Archdiocese happened when Summorum Pontificum took effect. Some weeks later, the Sunday and Holyday Masses moved from St Audoen's Church, High St to St Kevin's, Harrington St, where the traditional Mass is available every day as a Latin Mass chaplaincy within the archdiocese was created. The Latin Mass chaplain, Father Gerard Deighan, has subsequently been made administrator of the parish, just off Dublin's South Circular Road. Most significantly, since the chaplancy was established, traditional Requiem Masses, Nuptial Masses and baptisms have no longer been an issue in Dublin as before. The Archbishop of Dublin, Mgr Diarmuid Martin, even confirmed children in the extraordinary form on 29 June 2008. In addition, Father Seán Smith initiated a Saturday morning Mass in his church in Newtownmountkennedy, Co Wicklow in 2008. Father Smith also says Mass on Holydays of obligation in Newtownmountkennedy. Mass also occurs on the first Saturday of the month in University Church, St Stephen's Green in Dublin.

Ferns: Old rite Mass continues to take place annually in the private chapel at Edermine House, near Enniscorthy, Co Wexford as it has since June 2001. This is the only Latin Mass which has ecclesiastical sanction in the diocese. An elderly priest has been saying the traditional Mass in Wexford Town for several years who in spite of incessant appeals to his congregation and the diocese remains in a canonical limbo. A petition is underway for a regular extraordinary form Mass in the Ferns Diocese.

Kildare & Leighlin: The annual Mass in Kildare Town continues. From October 2008, the Bishop of Kildare & Leighlin, Mgr James Moriarty, has invited the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter to say a monthly Mass in Newbridge, Co Kildare, usually on the second Sunday of the month. A number of occasional Masses have taken place in other churches in the diocese.

Ossory: The Latin Mass Society of Ireland organised the first Mass with ecclesiastical approval in the Ossory diocese in February 2008. This initiated a series of protracted negotiations between people in the diocese and the Bishop of Ossory, Mgr Séamus Freeman SAC which resulted in a Sunday Mass in Kilkenny City since July 2009.

CASHEL & EMLY: Mass takes place annually in Holycross Abbey, Co Tipperary. Since April 2008, Mass has taken place on the 1st Thursday of the month in Glengoole, Co Tipperary.

Cloyne: The first public traditional Mass in the Cloyne diocese when the Bishop, Mgr John Magee SPS offered Mass in St Colman's Cathedral, Cobh, Co Cork in March 2008. A number of Masses have taken place sporadically in the diocese since then and much publicity was generated by two liturgical conferences in Cobh, but no location for a regular Mass has yet emerged. Mass is offered privately on a regular basis in the parish church of Macroom, Co Cork.

Cork & Ross
: The Extraordinary Form Latin Mass has taken place on the 1st Saturday in Ss Peter's and Paul's, Cork City since December 2005, with an annual Mass in West Cork dating from 2002. Since July 2008, Mass has taken place on the 3rd Sunday in Ss Peter's & Paul's. In July 2009, George Cardinal Pell of Sidney offered Solemn Pontifical Mass in Ss Peter's & Paul's. It was announced that from the first Sunday in October, Mass will take place every Sunday and Holy day in Ss Peter's & Paul's. Cork City has also been a venue of a priests' training course in February 2009, which drew attention from a number of southern-based priests.

Kerry: Once a barren spot, there has been a traditional Mass on the 3rd Sunday of the month in the Dominican Priory in Tralee, Co Kerry since January 2008.

Killaloe: A number of Masses have taken place in the Cathedral in Ennis, Co Clare. The next one will happen in September 2009. The Bishop of Killaloe, Mgr William Walsh, has responded positively to any request put to him for the extraordinary form Mass. The Society for Tradition, the Family and Property have organised an annual father and son camp with the traditional Mass in the Cistercian Abbey in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, in this diocese.

Limerick: The Institute of Christ the King have been sending a priest from Gricigliano to Limerick on a monthly basis since March 2006. Mass takes place on the 3rd Sunday of the month in St Patrick's Church, Dublin Road, Limerick City and on a more sporadic basis elsewhere in the diocese. The Institute of Christ the King is canonically established in the diocese and will send a priest to this apostolate permanently with numbers. A number of diocesan priests have shown an interest in the Mass.

Waterford & Lismore: A retreat takes place almost annually in the Cistercian Abbey of Mount Mellaray, Co Waterford with the traditional Mass available to participants.

TUAM: The daily traditional Mass in the Tuam Archdiocese which dates from 1984 continues in Co Mayo and the Archbishop of Tuam, Mgr Neary, sanctioned the appointment of a new chaplain to St Patrick's Academy, Islandeady, Castlebar, Co Mayo in August 2008. He is Father Jean-Pierre Pilon, a Canadian who is a priest of the Scranton diocese in Pennsylvania. The Archbishop also allows several Masses in other locations in his diocese, such as the annual Mass at the Irish national Marian Shrine in Knock, other pilgrimage Masses and a priests' training course took place in diocesan property in Lettermore, Co Galway - the archdiocese requested the LMSI to use this facility for courses and retreats. Some archdiocesan clergy have shown interest in learning to say the traditional Mass.

Achonry
: The annual extraordinary form Mass still takes place in the diocesan cathedral in Ballaghadereen, Co Roscommon. This is well attended, but there is little evidence of further activity in this diocese.

Clonfert: This is still the only diocese in Ireland where the extraordinary form Mass has never taken place publicly since the liturgical changes. It is reported some priests of the diocese are interested in learning how to say the Mass.

Elphin: The extraordinary form Mass is celebrated annually at a Mass Rock outside Sligo Town. The Bishop of Elphin, Mgr Christopher Jones, has given permission in principle for more frequent celebrations, but no priest of the diocese is available to say the Mass.

Galway, Kilmacduagh & Kilfenora: The LMSI is grateful to the officer commanding, 1st Infantry Battalion of the Irish Army and to the chaplain for making the chapel of Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa, Renmore, Galway, available for a quarterly Mass in November 2008. This may increase in frequency as there is some interest in the extraordinary form Mass among younger clergy of the Galway diocese. Prior to this, there was a less satisfactory arrangement in the parish church of Renmore on the outskirts of Galway City which was less frequent than four times a year.

Killala
: The priests' council sought clarification in relation to Summorum Pontificum from the Roman authorties. The Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei provided the Bishop of Killala, Mgr Seán Fleming, with the desired answer and so an extraordinary form Mass was made available on a quarterly basis in Ardagh, Co Mayo beginning in May 2009. This will be subject to review pending attendance at the Mass.

Peadar Laighléis
Uachtarán/President
Cumann an Aifrinn Laidinigh/Latin Mass Society of Ireland.

25 comments:

  1. Anonymous1:30 PM

    Very comprehensive report. Exemplary.

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  2. Anonymous3:17 PM

    I love this kind of posting where you take a country and go diocese to diocese informing us of the progress of the ExtraOrdinary(Gregorian) Rite.

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  3. Joe B3:33 PM

    It is so encouraging to see the pattern of younger priests wanting to offer the traditional mass. How ominous that there is also a pattern of influential priests opposing it. The character of the report seems to identify the clash between the two as the main area of contention, and not so much the opposition of bishops. Probably prudent.

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  4. Good news about Derry, my family are from there. I think it a terrible shame, though, that Ireland is in such a crisis when 50 years ago it was one of the most Catholic countries in Europe, barely rivaled by Italy.

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  5. "one of the most Catholic countries in Europe, barely rivalled by Italy."

    True, but it also happened to be a bastion of Jansenism and liturgical philistinism.

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  6. Peadar Laighléis and the rest of the LMSI deserve great credit for the perseverance over the years when the news was not so good.

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  7. When I was in Dublin about a month ago, I was pleasantly surprised to see the TLM time and place prominently displayed in the showcase of St. Mary's Pro-Cathedral (Dublin doesn't have a Catholic Cathedral).
    In my Diocese there is a TLM but it's not even allowed to be announced in the showcase of the Church it takes place in.

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  8. Anonymous9:03 PM

    B: That wasn't the TLM but the NO versus populum Latin Mass, complete with female altar boys.

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  9. Anonymous11:37 PM

    I think now would be a good time to better advertise these Masses and invite people to attend that we know. Although I think if one soul benefits from the Mass it is worth it, there is strength in numbers..The sad part is that there is not enough exposure on national levels and mainstream TV, for example, to allow the appearance of normality in Church life according to the form. Too many people are still unaware of its' existance and permissability without stigma. Another reason why Rome (Our Holy Father) should celebrate it with some regularity alongside the Novus Ordo Mass. Unfortunately too many people look only to Rome and they do not see the Pope celebrating this Mass. It gives a de facto appearance of being somewhat illegit.

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  10. Anonymous11:50 PM

    look at http://www.pewsitter.com/ for interesting links

    Canadian Bishops Conference Schedules Closed-Door Session on Independent Blogs and Web Sites Claiming to be Catholic

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  11. John L2:57 AM

    Are 'ardent Francophile' and 'ardent Germanophile' Private Eye-type euphemisms?

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  12. Anonymous:
    No, although the Latin NO in the cathedral was also mentioned there, it was clearly indicated as such, but (as I said) time and place (St Kevin's) of the TLM were also on display.
    It even has its own subdomain on the archdiocesan webpage (also unthinkable in my diocese):
    http://www.latinmass.dublindiocese.ie/
    and can be easily found under "chaplaincies" on the main diocesan webpage.

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  13. Anonymous5:43 AM

    This report is very helpful but certainly a great number of prayers are needed for an improvement in Ireland. I wonder if the sitaution in the D. of Killala will be settled soon. Months ago, everyone thought that it had been won.

    The news from Derry is very good, in my view, but I am hoping for a breakthrough in Cork, one of the most important cities on the Island.

    P.K.T.P.

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  14. Anonymous1:00 PM

    The news from Derry is very good, in my view, but I am hoping for a breakthrough in Cork, one of the most important cities on the Island.

    P.K.T.P., did you not read the report. The city of cork will have a weekly Sunday TLM from October. And a TLM every Holyday of Obligation. What bigger breakthrough could you have?

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  15. I would thank people for their compliments - but I must say that the LMSI is a much bigger organisation than just me and it would double the length of the report if I was to name everyone. However, we could do with many more people involved. Even before Summorum Pontificum, bishops were not normally a problem in Ireland. It did take a lot of work to persuade priests to learn and say the extraordinary form (and this is ongoing). But by-in-large, the places where there has been any success - Meath, Kilkenny, Cork and ultimately Limerick (waiting on Mgr Wach..) is where there are dedicated lay faithful on the ground working to TLM.

    With regard to the Bishops of Clogher and Derry - Mgr Duffy has always kept close to the French Church and its opinions, and this shows in his attitude to the liturgy (though I will say that I have seen him celebrate the NO Mass very reverently himself - I think he doesn't realise most priests in Ireland don't). Mgr O hEigeartaigh (also Hegarty) is as close to the German Church, but is very much on conservative/traditional side of German theological opinion, so is favourable to the traditional Mass. Does this answer the question?

    I think that in common with other countries, the trend among younger clergy and clerical students is in favour of the traditional liturgy, so I would have a lot of confidence in the situation in Ireland in the future.

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  16. Joe B3:14 PM

    Although this report concerns itself with matters of S.P., the mere presence of Sunday TLMs is such a small start toward the restoration of a Catholic culture (the saturation of the faith in the daily lives of families and communities) that this report only shows how far we have to go. I'm wouldn't even call it the end of the beginning. Perhaps we have bottomed out, but even that is not yet clear. Just when you think you have won, Satan unleashes his strongest attack.

    Good priests, that's the ticket. They usually come from large and very Catholic families. I don't see any turning of the tide there. Still a contraceptive and abortive world.

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  17. Readers may be interested to know that two Irish priests came over to training conferences at Merton College, Oxford to learn to celebrate Mass in the usus antiquior.

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  18. Conchur says:

    "it(scil. Ireland) also happened to be a bastion of Jansenism and liturgical philistinism."

    Yet "The Oxford Companion to Irish History." OUP 2007 states:

    "Jansenism was viewed with great suspicion by Rome, and 17th‐century Irish synods toed the Roman line. Indeed, while its moral rigorism made it attractive to elements of the Counter‐Reformation church, Jansenism's theological and political radicalism alienated both local hierarchies and Catholic monarchs. This was especially the case in France and most Irish clerical students there associated with milieux hostile to the movement. Indeed their anti‐Jansenist opinions were singled out for criticism by the pro‐Jansenist journal Nouvelles ecclésiastiques, Irish clerics, in general, being more attracted to Jesuit‐style humanism. The success of the anti‐Jansenist bull Unigenitus (1713) marginalized the movement but it survived as a popular millenarian‐cum‐miracle cult. Neither as a theology nor as a political attitude did Jansenism recommend itself to the Irish Catholic community, either at home or abroad. The frequent claim that Irish Catholicism was Jansenist‐influenced springs from the tendency to confuse Jansenism with mere moral rigorism."

    The Oxford Companion to Irish History. Oxford University Press. 2007. Encyclopedia.com. 18 Sep. 2009 http://www.encyclopedia.com

    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O245-Jansenism.html

    It is oft-repeated that Ireland was Jansenist in blogs but no evidence is provided or sources cited. I invite Conchur to provide or cite sources for his view.

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  19. Anonymous9:26 AM

    Thank you, Anon. My eye must have missed the note about an every-Sunday Mass at Cork. It didn't register. I might be the negative attitude I have so long had regarding our prospects in Ireland and some other countries, including my own (Canada). The Canadian situation, like the Irish one, has been pathetic in the past, except in the first years after Q.A.A. The Americans and Australians, French and Germans and Austrians, even the Belgians, make my country look like a liturgical wasteland.

    This last report from Ireland is very positive, then. Ireland is making up for lost time, as Canada is (we had more new permissions in Canada this year than we had for ten consecutive years before this pontificate).

    Thanks for the report from U.V. Ireland.

    P.K.T.P.

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  20. shane1:13 PM

    What happened in the early 18th century is inconsequential to the Jansenist argument. There is very little continuity between the Church in Ireland (particularly in its ethos and structure) as it existed in 1710 and its successor in 1890. Ireland had no Catholic seminary in the early 1700s, few (often none) bishops and all the seminarians went to the continent for their formation, indeed Catholic practice was outlawed. Jansenism was inculcated by the French emigrés who taught in the Royal College of Maynooth, established under Royal Charter by the (Protestant) Irish Parliament who feared Irish seminarians would imbue revolutionary tendencies. Dr Thomas Troy (himself a quasi-Gallician) feared 'cracking down' on the rampant Gallicianism/Jansenism the French professors were teaching because of the dropping numbers applying to Carlow, Belfast and Derry, also for fear any attempt seen as asserting Romish authotarianism could have induced the adverserity of British parliamentarians to Catholic Emancipation and would certainly have given extra-weight to the Ultra-Tories campaign for the ending of public endowements to the seminary. One of the many reasons Cardinal Cullen was brought into the country was to suppress the Jansenist anti-Roman teachings of the French/French trained professors at the college. The Cardinal had very little latitude to set things right, but this also coincided with the Famine and the fact that (in his words) 'there is a sort of established republic there which is almost independent of the ordinary'. The textbooks used in those years were really quite deplorable in their heresy-laden propoganda, for example Bailly, who was later put on the index, was a total Gallician and taught marriage was not a sacrament (the papal condemnation was ignored by some of Maynooth's professors). Cardinal Cullen prophetically said in response to the 'violent language' used by Maynooth professors against the Holy See: 'We shall have lots of Jansenists from such a school'. After a Royal Commission invested the College in 1854: "I got a peep at the Maynooth examination yesterday. It is perfectly Gallician. Mr [William] Crolly [who was the preeminent Maynooth prof and later Primate of all Ireland] is little more than a Gallician [NB: Cullen used 'Gallician and Jansenist interchangably]. When a pope confirms a general council the council becomes infallible because it is to be supposed that the majority of bishops agree with him. He is the man of the majority. Rescripts and bulls do not bind Crolly, and some others were determined to crush Ultramontanism...There is really quite an immensity of intrigue in the whole business". Propaganda (then responsible for the Irish Church) were extremely concerned at the situation, but Cullen was impotent to do much for fear 'of being labelled a great enemy of Maynooth' and other pressing concerns in the Irish post-famine wreckage [to be fair though, he did later force the resignation of Dr Dixon, the primate, as trutee of the college and took action against Prof Kirby].

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  21. shane1:43 PM

    I take issue Mr Laighleis' characterization of the Newry congretation as 'sizeable'. No more than 30 people regularly attend. The SSPX church in Dublin hardly fares much better. Its attendance has declined dramtically since the 1980s. They used to boast a congregation of about 600 every Sunday two decades ago, but now their Sunday total is about 30-70 (from my estimation). I think they now intend to close it. The FSSP also saw its congregation in Cill Mhuire decline from 40 last October to about 12 this month (see the St Conleth's Catholic Heritage Association blog for stats). The main reason for the SSPX decline in Ireland is their neo-colonial white settler mentality. Why do they send native Irish priests to all parts of the world while importing foreign priests to Ireland? Surely Irish priests should be kept in Ireland. The whole SSPX operation in Ireland is widely seen as far too French and not sufficiently indigenous, thereby repelling many Catholics who would otherwise be interested. The traditionalist movement should put its greatest emphasis on encouraging diocesan priests to say the Old Mass.

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  22. Anonymous5:09 PM

    If I may be a rigorist of another kind: PKTP, it not UV Ireland but the Latin Mass Society of Ireland. Also, the many punctuation errors in the very informative article were jarring. Address locations and titles using commas need to be closed with commas too, please!

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  23. Anonymous has hit the nail on the head when attention is drawn to the fact that so far B16 has not as yet said the EF in public. I feel once the Pope and senior Curia Cardinals do so on a regular basis local priests and bishops will have the confidence to follow their example and take the lead in making the TLM widely available. I well remember many years ago when once one regular Sunday evening mass was said in one city parish - crowds flocked in - collections soared - very soon every parish had a Sunday evening mass.

    I have experienced many TLM's in many parts of Ireland and I feel sorry for many in the congregation in the under (45-50)age group who clearly are curious and interested in the TLM but don't understand the format of the TLM. This is a problem which needs urgent attention. Perhaps the celebrant could devote a few minutes in the homily to this and the LMSI produce some written guidance.
    In summary I think - Example, Education and advertisement is the way to go.

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  24. I notice that several of the comments and the article itself refer to permissions from bishops.

    This way of speaking is now outdated. Since Summorum Pontificum, any stable group can request a mass in the usus antiquior, and the authorities are bound to respond. Also, priests are free to celebrate a 'private Masses' which the faithful are free to attend.

    Perhaps what is missing is a little pressure from the laity.

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  25. Once again, thanks to the comments here. I think the discussion of Jansenism a red herring in respect of Ireland. Ireland certainly was morally rigorist up until a generation ago, but there were a number of historical forces driving this tendency other than heresy. But it has nothing to do with the issue in hand.

    We have actually heard of Summorum Pontificum in Ireland and we know that we do not require the bishop's permission in cases where the pastor or religious superior has already consented, but we believe it serves to nail established Masses down better when it is done with the bishop's consent.

    In regard to Shane's comments, I believe he is underestimating both the Dublin and Newry SSPX congregations, but I agree with his substantive point: that the SSPX is very small in Ireland and that it has decreased substantially since the SSPX came here in the 1980s. I will not comment on the reasons he suggests for this. This ties in with PKTP's point in contrasting Ireland with Canada. The situation in Ireland went into reverse in the 1990s - no new Mass centre emerged between 1992 and 1998 and a number of existing Mass centres disappeared. When the LMSI was established in 1999, the first task was to halt the erosion rather that begin any fresh initiative.

    One of the reasons why the TLM situation in Ireland did go backwards is because when QAA came out in 1984, the SSPX were seen as a threat, but they ceased to be so regarded sometime in the 1990s. Also, there was a conversation between the late Bishop of Kerry, Mgr Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin, and the then PCED President, Cardinal Innocenti, in 1992. Mgr Ó Súilleabháin came away with the distinct impression that the PCED would not enforce Ecclesia Dei Adflicta and the Irish Bishops then ignored it with impunity for many years.

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