Rorate Caeli

FSSP Solemn Mass in Guadalajara

FSSP maintains an apostolate in Guadalajara, the Capellania de San Pedro Apostol, which is one of the two places in Mexico where weekly regular and public Traditional Latin Masses that fulfil the Sunday obligation are available under diocesan auspices (according to the list of Una Voce Mexico.) The other place is a parish in the Archdiocese of Monterrey that has an "anticipated" Sunday TLM every Saturday at five in the afternoon.

Most TLM's in Mexico continue to be offered by the SSPX.

The following video recently posted on Youtube has excerpts of the Solemn Mass offered on October 12, 2009 by Fr. John Berg FSSP.


35 comments:

  1. The juxtaposition of the women's mantillas with their short sleeves is rather startling, in that it is so often not seen.

    Beautiful chanting and Mass, though!

    What's up with the deacon distributing Holy Communion?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous6:55 AM

    The last time I heard, the F.S.S.P. was also celebrating every Sunday in Mexico City. There is a fourth every-Sunday Mass in the D. of Cuernavaca. It is scandalous that there are only four sees having it in the entire country but we do have among them the three most populous cities.

    P.K.T.P.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Maybe it is rather hotter than where you are Garrett?

    ReplyDelete
  4. Carlos:

    The Mass in Monterrey are now each sundays at 1p.m.

    We also have the Mass in Mexicali and Tijuana.

    FSSP is starting their apostolate in Mexico City with a Mass per month.

    Soon we'll have the Mass in another 4 cities.

    FSSPX also are in many places here, thanks to God

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous10:07 AM

    There are clothes modest and beautiful at the same time that can be worn even when there's very hot.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Felipe and PKTP:

    Thanks for the information. Perhaps someone could make the proper corrections to the Una Voce Mexico and Wikimissa listings, and update the FSSP MX website.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Garrett:

    The PCED has permitted deacons in Solemn Mass to distribute Holy Communion. I think the permission was given in 2007, if not earlier. I cannot divulge private communications here but I do have an email from one of the priests who asked PCED about this.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Peter,

    Perhaps it is so! I wasn't complaining (necessarily), but just stating what I thought to be an odd sight.

    CAP,

    That's interesting. I don't know how I missed that. I have to say, I'm not really sure I'm a huge fan of that allowance. When was the last time (if ever?) in the tradition of the Church that non-priests/non-bishops were allowed to distribute Communion?

    This seems to me an obvious novelty, foreign to the tradition of both the East and West.

    ReplyDelete
  9. "That's interesting. I don't know how I missed that..."

    The permission was never publicized, and was given quietly. Both the SSJC and the FSSP make use of it.

    ReplyDelete
  10. "This seems to me an obvious novelty, foreign to the tradition of both the East and West"

    The Greek Orthodox cathedral in the Philippines has the deacon give holy communion. It is highly uncommon among Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics but it does happen.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Anonymous3:12 PM

    Do the deacons purify their hands before distributing Holy Communion?

    Secret permissions are just scandalous.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Re: deacons giving communion --

    This is a slightly edited excerpt from the email that I have, the email outlining the procedure permitted by the PCED for deacons and subdeacons in Solemn Mass to give communion. Take note of the permission for a subdeacon to wear a stole under the tunicle if he is to distribute communion:

    ***


    The deacon (who is an ordained deacon or priest)and the subdeacon (who is an ordained subdeacon, deacon or priest) may give out communion at Solemn Mass.

    If this happens an altar boy carrying a communion paten (not the priest's paten from the
    altar) will go with the priest to give out communion.

    At the same time an altar boy carrying a communion paten (not the priest's paten from the
    altar) will go with the deacon to give out communion.

    And at the same time an altar boy carrying a communion paten (not the priest's paten from the altar) will go with the the subdeacon to give out communion.

    The priest's paten is simply left on the altar

    It is usual to wear a stole while giving out communion. Of course the priest is wearing his stole and the deacon is wearing his deacon stole already. But the subdeacon's dress does not include a stole

    Ecclesia Dei in Rome suggested that when the subdeacon will give out communion he should vest for mass wearing a deacon stole under his tunicle just as the deacon
    wears a deacon stole under his dalmatic

    The priest's fingers are purified in the chalice after communion as normal but the deacon and subdeacon who help with communion at Solemn Mass simply purify their fingers in an ablution cup near the tabernacle

    ReplyDelete
  13. "Secret permissions are just scandalous."

    Not secret, just low-key.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous3:47 PM

    Look, if this is intended to be an exemplary video explaining how to celebrate the Extraordinary Rite, why have a red Mass said at an altar vested in white? The colour should be consistent.

    And, as far as the final video is concerned, why is the altar at which High Mass in celebrated such a mess? Everything looks plonked about with little rhyme or reason.

    ReplyDelete
  15. The homilist (and the priest receiving conffessions) is Fr. Fryar (kind of a funny name). He used to be pastor at the FSSP mission in Phoenix and drobe two hours every Sunday, after morning mass, to come say mass for about forty people in Clarkdale, Arizona. Excellent priest. (and a great confessor!)

    ReplyDelete
  16. Just for the record, the "deacon" that is giving communion is Father Jonathan Romanoski(Romo). So although he functioned as deacon for this solemn mass with father Berg he is an ordained priest.

    Carlos, I will try to update the Wikimissa website Unavoce and FSSP MX asap.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Anonymous11:01 PM

    Are there any Traditional Latin Masses in Guanajuato?

    Phillip C.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "...one of the two places in Mexico where weekly regular and public Traditional Latin Masses that fulfil the Sunday obligation..."

    Ahh, but also all the SSPX TLMs also fulfill the Sunday obligation.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Phillip, the FSSPX has a new chapel in Leon Guanajuato and there might be some sedevacantist from the Trento (Thuc line) in that area of our country. Right now there aren't any places in "regular canonical situation" the Bajio area that offer the TLM but we (Una voce Mx) are working on it.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Knight of Malta:

    I didn't intend to deny that. I had originally written that the two places I listed are those that have Traditional Latin Masses of Sunday obligation UNDER DIOCESAN AUSPICES, but I inadvertently erased that when I edited the post a bit later. I've restored the phrase. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Re the Deacons:-

    It's hardly secret or scandalous: Deacons in Seminaries do it all the time, and I was under the impression (without any extra study) that it was automatically right and proper.

    ReplyDelete
  22. liturgical commentator2:36 PM

    The distribution of Communion by deacons (besides being a practice of the early church) is approved of by both the Roman ritual and the 1917 codex.

    Of course deacons do not "purify" their hands before distributing Communion but neither does a priest.

    Why on earth would one have to ask permission of the PCED to allow this practice? And if the practice was contra legem (which it is not) who gave the PCED the authority to issue indults?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Louis E.3:01 PM

    Intriguing that the PCED letter speaks of the "ordained subdeacon" given that Paul VI officially "suppressed" that order in Ministeria Quaedam (though traditional orders have still conferred it,Father Zuhlsdorf for one says these ordinations have no effect).

    On the other hand,have you noticed that the new documents on Anglicans include a reference to the Ordinaries having to "obey the directives" of their Episcopal Conferences?...since when have ordinaries been under obedience to clubs they belong to?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Anonymous3:45 PM

    "Why on earth would one have to ask permission of the PCED to allow this practice? And if the practice was contra legem (which it is not) who gave the PCED the authority to issue indults?"

    Because it seems contrary to reason that unpurified unconsecrated hands can touch the Body of Christ. If I am wrong then lay ministers are OK.

    Also, custom contra legem takes precedence over the law, Mr. Positivist.

    ReplyDelete
  25. "Because it seems contrary to reason that unpurified unconsecrated hands can touch the Body of Christ."

    In the old rite the deacon was the extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, despite his "unpurified unconsecrated hands."

    ReplyDelete
  26. "There are clothes modest and beautiful at the same time that can be worn even when there's very hot."

    There is nothing inherently immodest about a short-sleeved dress or blouse.

    ReplyDelete
  27. No further comments on the women's short sleeves will be approved.

    ReplyDelete
  28. liturgical commentator10:51 PM

    "Because it seems contrary to reason that unpurified unconsecrated hands can touch the Body of Christ. If I am wrong then lay ministers are OK."

    How exactly are a deacon's hands "unpurified" versus those of a priest? Are you referring to the washing of the hands at the Lauabo inter innocentes? If so, the priest there washes his hands for the offering of the sacrifice, not for distributing Holy Communion. There is no ritual cleansing for a priest (not the celebrant) who assists in the distribution of Holy Communion at Mass, nor one for when it is given outside of Mass.

    Comparing a deacon to a lay extraordinary minister is like comparing a corporal (which you know of course is only blessed, not consecrated) to my linen handkerchief. They are very nearly identical except that one has been ordained for sacred use.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Anonymous2:38 AM

    the link didn't work for me, to the videos.

    ReplyDelete
  30. What's the point of consecrating the hands of priests at their ordinations, then? Either there exists a reason apart from his privilege to touch the Body of Christ (and we're just all fools for not knowing about it), or the idea that deacons can distribute Communion is directly contrary to the liturgical traditions of the Church, an even scarier thought.

    ReplyDelete
  31. liturgical commentator12:19 PM

    A priest's hands are consecrated for offering sacrifice and for giving blessings. The prayer accompanying the consecration of hands in the ordination rite is explicit in this: Ut quaecumque benedixerint, benedicantur; et quaecumque consecrauerint, consecrentur, et sanctificentur.

    The "consecrated hands for consecrated things" slogan is a myth. Take for instance the (consecrated) chalice and paten. Of course they are on a lower plane than the Blessed Sacrament, but I've actually read comments that these should only be touched by a priest, when it is part of the rite of Mass itself that they are handled by the deacon and subdeacon. Clerical tonsure is the traditional minimum requirement for touching the sacred instruments. Likewise, diaconal ordination is the traditional minimum requirement (again I cite the practice of the early church, the Roman ritual, and the 1917 codex) for touching the Blessed Sacrament.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous1:34 PM

    The "consecrated hands for consecrated things" slogan is a myth.

    Well, this "myth" comes from a certain Thomas Aquinas, an obscure, backwards, low-grade medieval theologian, who must be wrong, because everything before 1969 was wrong.

    The dispensing of Christ's body belongs to the priest for three reasons. First, because, as was said above (Article 1), he consecrates as in the person of Christ. But as Christ consecrated His body at the supper, so also He gave it to others to be partaken of by them. Accordingly, as the consecration of Christ's body belongs to the priest, so likewise does the dispensing belong to him. Secondly, because the priest is the appointed intermediary between God and the people; hence as it belongs to him to offer the people's gifts to God, so it belongs to him to deliver consecrated gifts to the people. Thirdly, because out of reverence towards this sacrament, nothing touches it, but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this sacrament. Hence it is not lawful for anyone else to touch it except from necessity, for instance, if it were to fall upon the ground, or else in some other case of urgency.

    Summa Theologica, p.III q.82 a.3


    By the way, a myth is essentially "truth in allegorical form".

    Lord, save us from liturgical commentators.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Anonymous1:45 PM

    Of course in some regions deacons' hands were consecrated (see Epistle of Gildas and Pontifical of Egbert of York), but the ministry of deacon was always pertaining the chalice.

    The deacon, as being nigh to the priestly order, has a certain share in the latter's duties, so that he may dispense the blood; but not the body, except in case of necessity, at the bidding of a bishop or of a priest. First of all, because Christ's blood is contained in a vessel, hence there is no need for it to be touched by the dispenser, as Christ's body is touched. Secondly, because the blood denotes the redemption derived by the people from Christ; hence it is that water is mixed with the blood, which water denotes the people. And because deacons are between priest and people, the dispensing of the blood is in the competency of deacons, rather than the dispensing of the body.

    ST III q.82 a.3


    As for the doctrine, Cardinal Ferdinando Antonelli himself, once said, I remember it well: “How come that we make liturgists who know nothing about theology?”

    Msgr Bartolucci

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anonymous6:26 PM

    How eloquent therefore, even if not of ancient custom, is the rite of the anointing of the hands in our Latin ordination, as though precisely for these hands a special grace and power of the Holy Spirit is necessary! To touch the sacred species and to distribute them with their own hands is a privilege of the ordained, one which indicates an active participation in the ministry of the Eucharist.

    Dominicanae cenae, John Paul II, 1980

    ReplyDelete
  35. GottMittuns2:25 AM

    Can anyone tell mne where the SSPX celebrates Mass in Tijuana? and/or Mexicali?
    We are trabeling from TJ to L.A. to attend the SSPX Mass. (between the border wait and the commute, it's 5 hours to get to church).

    Any help is appreciated.

    ReplyDelete

Comment boxes are debate forums for readers and contributors of RORATE CÆLI.

Please, DO NOT assume that RORATE CÆLI contributors or moderators necessarily agree with or otherwise endorse any particular comment just because they let it stand.

_______
NOTES

(1) This is our living room, in a deeply Catholic house, and you are our guest. Please, behave accordingly. Any comment may be blocked or deleted, at any time, whenever we perceive anything that is not up to our standards, not conducive to a healthy conversation or a healthy Catholic environment, or simply not to our liking.

(2) By clicking on the "publish your comment" button, please remain aware that you are choosing to make your comment public - that is, the comment box is not to be used for private and confidential correspondence with contributors and moderators.

(3) Any name/ pseudonym/ denomination may be freely used simply by choosing the third option, "Name/URL" (the URL box may be left empty), when posting your comment - therefore, there is no reason whatsoever to simply post as "Anonymous", making debate unnecessarily harder to follow. Any comment signed simply as "Anonymous" will be blocked.

Thank you!