Rorate Caeli

The Collapse of the Church in France

The IFOP Institute has just made a survey on Catholicism in France for the daily La Croix. The result is mind-blowing:

  • Whilst, in 1965, 81% of the French declared themselves as Catholics, they were no more than 64% in 2009.
  • More serious: whilst 27% of the French went to Mass once a week or more in 1965, they are no more than 4.5% in 2009.
  • At a doctrinal level, generally, it’s a catastrophe: 63% of practicing Catholics think all religions are the same; 75% ask for an “aggiornamento” of the Church on contraception and even 68% for abortion.
  • As for communion with the Roman Pontiff, the situation is no better: only 27% of practicing Catholics consider that Benedict XVI “rather well” defends “the values of Catholicism” (personally, I don’t even understand the question, but that doesn’t matter) when 34% think he defends them “rather badly”.

That’s the least we could say, that in view of the figures, it is urgent to change the strategy and reunite the living forces of French Catholicism to re-evangelise the former Eldest Daughter of the Church! To find all the survey data (in French): “La Croix“.

Read more in The Anglo-Catholic


  1. Whilst, in 1965, 81% of the French declared themselves as Catholics, they were no more than 64% in 2009. More serious: 27% of the French went to Mass once a week or more in 1965, they are no more than 4.5% in 2009.

    In other words, things in France were already pretty horrendous in 1965, and have only gotten much, much, much worse.

  2. Anonymous3:53 PM

    One could add that approx 1/2 of the french seminarians are now originating from the combined traditional spectrum.

    Tradition is thus about to defeat Modernism in France, which has left but a complete desert almost everywhere.

    The Thiberville affaire is thus of importance, it very well mark a turning point.

    We must remember all the faithul sons of the Church who kept the Faith during the darkest hours in France. Through their brave actions, the institutions they founded, the renewal of the Church in France will come about.

    An especial thank you goes inevitably to Archbishop Lefebvre. May his work one day be fully recognised.

  3. On the bright side, France IS NOT THAT BAD as compared to the Netherlands!

  4. Anonymous4:04 PM

    To too was surprised to see that big gap between those who called themselves Catholic and Mass attendance in '65. Yet more proof that many things people blame on VATII were already imploding long beforehand.

  5. Anonymous4:11 PM

    I think it is very sad to see that France being the oldest daughter of the Church has lost its faith, but to be honest I am more concern with the fallen away from the faith in the whole world.
    Africa and Asia are producing priests and there seems to be a turn for Christianity in that part of the world. Sadly though most of the western world is in complete apostasy and we just get a slap on the wrist from the Higharchy at the Vatican.

    I happened to like Benedict XVI, but i expect the Pope to be assertive in chastising the liberalism in the church. Even to the point of demanding from bishops,priests and religious a renewed commitment of their vows and ordering all of us the members of the Catholic Church for an examination of concience so that at least know where we stand reagarding our personal faith.

  6. Anonymous4:19 PM

    The Cure of Ars must be crying!I am reading a book about him and it is amazing how he turned his parish into a place of fervent devotion- BY HIS SANCTITY. He found the parish rather indifferent to religion when he arrived.

  7. Anonymous4:36 PM

    France in the 1960s was bleeding and Vaticanum II was another stab with a large, sharp knife.

    Let's be serious, it's the country of the 1789 revolution and first genocide in history, totally penetrated by freemasonry, you don't think this was a model catholic state before 1960s, do you?

  8. Anonymous4:41 PM

    Second Vatican Council was a total disaster, things were bad before the Council but not THAT bad, and they were not going worse in THAT pace!

  9. Anonymous4:50 PM


  10. Anonymous5:14 PM

    The good Cure prayed all nite, performed severe penances.... all the stuff saints do.

    The No crowd can barely say the hours...and that has been protestantized too.

    The Traditional Orders and faithful are more along the lines of prayer, penance and fasting. Seems to be working. SANCTIFIED.

  11. Joe B5:31 PM

    "In other words, things in France were already pretty horrendous in 1965, and have only gotten much, much, much worse."

    Yes, the evidence is clear. VC II went the wrong way and gave us bad pastoral direction, providing the world with a watershed moment for the empowerment of anti-Christs, especially within the church.

  12. Anonymous5:32 PM

    I thought Vatican II was supposed to fix all that.

  13. Anonymous5:42 PM

    La France, La France! La fille ainee de l'Eglise! Oui, la fille ainee et la fille la plus recalitrante.


  14. Anonymous6:00 PM

    Interesting that in spite of the profuse haemorraging, the French Cardinals were the foremost opponents of SP.

    In the posting a few days ago about Cardinals who have celebrated the TLM since SP, nonetheless, it appears Card. Twenty-Three (Vingt-Trois), undoubtedly named after the famous Pope who called the V2 council to begin with, was in fact one of those 7 Cardinals who did so. Quite a surprise frankly for one who so vocally rebuked the Holy Father for daring to talk to the SSPX.

    My analysis? Card Twenty-Three and his French peers have clearly made wonderful strides towards building up the anti-Christ "ecclesial movement" in France - no Masses in some entire dioceses, but there are still 4.5% of the French population left to dupe. The work cannot be declared complete until the number is 0%. 4.5% is still about 1 in 20 and the Catholic Church (the real one that is) survived and conquered pagan Rome with numbers as meagre.

    Obviously I cannot and do not wish to judge these men, but only surmise what deeds say for themselves. I would appreciate some comments from the more informed whether my analysis is too harsh or pretty close to the money. I'm only wondering aloud.

    The problem for these French Cardinals must now become one of maintaining any vestige of credibility - the Cardinal of a Church that does no longer exists must wield very little power indeed as even the most dim-witted modernist must have the sense to perceive. Power in France, power in the Church, what power can Big Chief Twenty-Three and his buddies wield when they have no Indians left to call their own?

    One can only hope and pray for the hasty assigning of the missionary territory of France to the SSPX sooner than later.

    O Holy Family, pray for France!


    Anon from New France (Vive La Canada!)

  15. Flambeaux6:50 PM

    IIRC, Wiltgen noted in The Rhine Flows into the Tiber that one of the facts animating the Rhineland bishops was that a vocations crisis had started in Germany, France, Austria, and the Lowland countries in the wake of WW2.

    Some of their "take-over" efforts at the Council were motivated by a concern that this was the only way to stop the collapse of the Faith already well underweigh.

    I don't think such things excuse what was done, but I found that Wiltgen's text provided a great deal of context for what was going on before V2 was convoked.

    And, as always, I could be misremembering the passage in Wiltgen so I'm certainly open to correction if necessary.

  16. Anonymous6:51 PM

    The Biography of Marcel Lefebvre will give you a good idea of how bad France was way before you know what.


  17. Anonymous7:00 PM

    An FSSP priest told me that the TLM will attract relatively few Catholics who have ceased to practice the Faith.

    He said that the massive amount of Catholics who have dropped from the Church are gone forever -- it would take a "worldwide miracle in the sky" to return them to Mass.

    Therefore, what good, so to speak, would the TLM do for the Latin Church?

    Little by little, 50, 100 200 familes per TLM-only parish, would attach themselves to the TLM.

    Said familes will have children.

    Their children will be raised on the TLM and so forth.

    We are talking a long, long time before the Church could even possibly be restored to Her former greatness, at least statistically.

    Let us cease with the reform-of-the-reform nonsense. Only the TLM can save the Latin Church.

    Pope Benedict XVI should this very day unleash the TLM in ever way possible throughout the Church.

    At least begin in France — even if only as an expirement of sorts.

    Begin by regularizing the Society of Saint Pius X.

    Then demand of bishops (Ordinary Form, so to speak)that as soon as possible (priests are to learn to offer the TLM), at least one TLM per Sunday is to be offered at each Latin Church parish in France.

    The TLM must be phased in and the Novus Ordo phased out.

  18. Anonymous7:07 PM

    Is the following opposed to the teachings of Holy Mother Church:

    Aware that the Church is all but dead there, the Holy Father declares that in France, the Novus Ordo is to be suppressed and replaced by the TLM?

    As quickly as possible (for example, three years), priests in France are to learn to the TLM and the Faithful are taught Latin prayers from the Ordinary of the Mass.

  19. Does anyone have actual stats on the traditionalist clergy/laymen in France?

    I have often heard trads in the pews will soon outnumber those in novus ordo pews/chairs, but it would be good to have evidence.

  20. Please folks, Vatican 2 had nothing to do with the state of the French Church. The old Mass was and is valid, so is the new Mass. Would you divide the Church on a matter of taste? Let's get at the root of the problem. What is the real cause?

  21. Anonymous7:17 PM

    It is so very sad that this country that has given to the Church some very wonderful saints should be inthis position. Yet, as was pointed out, since the refusal to accept Christ as King...then along came the bloody revolution and there have been other anti-Catholic persecutions as well which shows the devil's reaction to the saint making Church there.

    Then enter modernism. Rest is history.

    Here especially we give thanks to God for the tradionalists who have kept the true faith alive.

  22. un autre canadien7:25 PM

    "Viva la Canada"? Is French Canada any better? Or Canada as a whole? I am embarrassed for my country - abortion to birth on demand, gay marriage, both brought in by Catholic Prime Ministers.

  23. Anonymous7:43 PM

    On Jordanes's first comment:

    Things in France were not reflective of the international sitaution in 1965. France was far advanced in liberalism before others owing to the French Revolution's impact over the decaces since 1790.

    In Québec, the "Quiet Revolution" of the late 1950s also assured that that jurisdiction was more advanced in liberalism than were others by 1965.

    We must keep in mind that a single effect can have several direct causes in one place but only one cause somewhere else. The collapse caused by the revolution in the Church in the 1960s was the sole direct cause of the Church's decline in some places but not in all places. However, there is a connexion: that's why so many of the bad ideas came from France.


  24. Anonymous7:48 PM

    Anonymous writes:

    "To too was surprised to see that big gap between those who called themselves Catholic and Mass attendance in '65. Yet more proof that many things people blame on VATII were already imploding long beforehand."

    This statement needs to be qualified in terms of place. Also, some bad effects have alternate causes. I offer an example here. It was well known that, for several decades before Vatican II, adult males in Spain spent far less time in church than did women. The ladies would go to Mass and many of the men there would wait outside--a scenario also familiar in North America but at a later date. But this would affact Mass attendance figures in Spain before and after 1965 and yet not have the same impact in other countries' statistics. So we have to handle these figures with care.


  25. Ludolphus8:09 PM

    Let's not forget the 3rd Republic either:

    "The new administration of Emil Combes applied the 1901 law ruthlessly and religious orders found it very difficult to gain legal authorisation. 81 congregations of women and 54 of men were dissolved. By 1903 over 14,000 schools run by unauthorised orders were closed.

    In 1904 members of religious orders were forbidden to teach. Almost all religious orders were banned. Their property was sold often at well below its real value.

    Between 30,000 and 60,000 priests and nuns were exiled."

  26. Anonymous8:10 PM

    We also have some recent statistics regarding Christianity as a whole in the Dominion of Canada. These were gleaned by someone or other from the 1961, 1971, 1981, 1991, and 2001 national censuses.

    What they show is that, owing to a combination of a growth in secularism & atheism and of immigration of non-Christians, Christianity is almost in free-fall in Canada. Even the Baptists are no longer growing as a per centage of he population (although Pentecostalists still are). Anglicans are declining so fast that, at the current rate, the very last Anglican will die in 2061. Numbers of Catholics is still growing in Canada, thanks to some immigrants from the Philippines (&c.) but, as a per centage of the population, Catholicism is in vigorous decline, from over 47% to 43% in one decade.

    In 2001, only 72% of Canadians were Christians. The figure was over 90% in the 1960s. Between 1991 and 2001, the rate of decline of Christianity was 0.9% per annum. But even more worrying is the fact that the *rate* of decline in that decade was much higher than it had been in the decade 1981-1991.

    Assuming that the rate of decline has remained at close to 1% per annum--which is not likely--the per centage of those who self-identify as Christian is now probably at about 63%. But if the rate of decline has itself continued to increase, it is likely more. I'm guessing that it's at about 60%. We shall know after the 2011 census of next year.

    This means that, well within my expected lifetime, Christans (all denominations combined) will be a minority religion. Whan I was a boy, Christians were well over 90%.

    Islam is now growing in Canada at a horrendous rate. To my recollection, it is growing at over 200% per decade. I'm not sure about the number on that. I shall have to check. But, by 2001, Muslims outnumbered Jews in Caanda by a factor of more than two (2.3) to one. I'm guessing it is now over three to one today. By now, there should also be far more Hindus than Jews, more Sikhs than Jews, and more Buddhists than Jews. It makes one wonder why an insistence on Jewish holidays is still deemed to be important for secular calendars.

    What is really worrying is that rapid growth of irreligion--those who claim to follow no religion at all. In the Province of British Columbia, one-third of the population now falls into this category. Quite soon, it will be half the population.

    The Latin Mass is a necessary but not a sufficient step for a restoration.


  27. Anonymous8:47 PM

    Pope Benedict XVI:

    "It’s clear that the renewed liturgy is the ordinary liturgy of our times."

    Therefore, the monumental collapse of the Latin Church in France will continue.

    By the way: "Renewed" liturgy?

  28. P. Button9:20 PM

    France has been going downhill since the French Revolution. The rest of Europe is not much better.

  29. "Please folks, Vatican 2 had nothing to do with the state of the French Church. The old Mass was and is valid, so is the new Mass. Would you divide the Church on a matter of taste?

    Let's get at the root of the problem. What is the real cause?"

    In my estimation, it's the diabolical attack on the Mass in a satanic effort to protestantize our Catholic form of worship. A matter of taste??? Hardly!

    Cardinal E. Pacelli:

    "I am concerned about the confidences of the Virgin to the little Lucia of Fatima. The persistence of the Good Lady in face of the danger that threatens the Church is a divine warning against the suicide that the modification of the Faith, liturgy, theology, and soul of the Church would represent.

    'I hear around me partisans of novelties who want to demolish the Holy Sanctuary, destroy the universal flame of the Church, reject her adornments, and make her remorseful for her historical past. Well, my dear friend, I am convinced that the Church of Peter must affirm her past, or else she will dig her own tomb."

  30. Anonymous11:32 PM

    Think of it this way. The great house of the Church had fires in a few rooms. The Pope calls the Council in the hopes of dousing the fires with buckets of water. Then the Pope died and the modernists seized the moment at the Council and replaced the water with gasoline.

  31. Anonymous2:46 AM

    Okay. The Church in France is in shambles.

    What does Pope Benedict XVI plan to do in regard to the horrific liturgical and spiritual condition of the Church in France?

    Surely, His Holiness is aware that the continued use of the Novus Ordo is not viable in France, if not elsewhere.

  32. "One could add that approx 1/2 of the french seminarians are now originating from the combined traditional spectrum."

    About 150 seminarians from France (including around 40 with the SSPX) are Traditionalist. The total number of seminarians for France (excluding the SSPX) stands at about 740.

    The most conservative (and, I think, the most reliable) stats that I have (and these were given to me by French Traditionalists) indicate that around 200,000 Frenchmen attend the TLM every Sunday. (There are around 400 locations in France where the TLM is available, including those under the SSPX, and including those places where the TLM is said on a less-than-every-Sunday basis.) This is about 7 to 8 percent of all Frenchmen who go to church on Sundays.

    So -- no, Traditionalists do not comprise the majority even of church-going French Catholics. They do, however, provide nearly 20% of all Frenchmen studying for the Roman Catholic priesthood, and this is set to grow even as the number of seminarians and churchgoers from a purely Novus Ordo background diminishes.

  33. "On the bright side, France IS NOT THAT BAD as compared to the Netherlands!"

    In terms of numbers, this is true. The Netherlands and Flanders together comprise "Ground Zero" of the post-Conciliar devastation. The Netherlands saw only 12 priestly ordinations in 2008, while only one or two Flemish Catholics (out of a total of six Belgians) were ordained to the priesthood in Belgium in the same year. The TLM also continues to be nearly non-existent in The Netherlands and Flanders (most TLM's in Belgium -- and the clear majority of vocations -- are in the French-speaking part.) I also gather that church attendance in the Netherlands and in Flanders is far worse than in France.

    However, France's historic role in Catholicism means that the ongoing loss of Catholic France has and will have far greater impact on the universal Church than, say, the near-complete disappearance of the Catholic Church in Belgium and the Netherlands.

  34. the French-speaking part


  35. Anonymous9:11 AM

    Carlos et al,

    Although I am not very optimistic about the situation in my homecountry (the Netherlands), your statistics are not correct.

    The attendance at sunday mass stands at 7,9% in 2009 (so almost double that of France). The number of ordinations to the priesthood in 2009 was 12, but if you extrapolate this in relativity to the seize of the catholic population (Netherlands about 4 million, France more then 38 million) that would mean that in France the number would at least have to be 460. And anyway, the number of ordinations varies significantly every year, because in 2008 it stood at 28 (for France that would have to be 1075...).

    And has Cardinal Vingt-Trois - as archbishop (and future cardinal) Mgr. Eijk of Utrecht has done - created a personal parish in his city where the rector of his own cathedral celebrates every sunday both the OF (in the ´brompton oratory way´) as well as the EF?

    In how many seminaries in France are there courses in the EF (in the Netherlands in three of the five, that is 60%)?

    Yes, things could be much better and the Netherlands was rock bottom in the ´60´s through the ´80´s, but here and elsewhere on the traditional blogs many people still seem to think that the ultra-progressive bishops of those days are still the ordinaries (Mgr. Eijk is 56 and if he would be created cardinal already in 2010 - I think it will be two years later - he would be the youngest in the world after cardinal-to-be Mgr. Reinhard Marx of Muenchen-Freising in Germany), that the days of the disgracefull ´New Catechism´ are still here (no, the CCC has had several publications here since 1992, and the circulation of the all the encyclicals since Ecclesia de eucharistia has quadrupled; the conference of bishops has produced in 2007 a small missal for the EF called ´The Holy Sacrifice´ which is going to its third edition etc.).

    In my former diocese of ´s-Hertogenbosch (I moved in July of 2009) the council of priests was renewed recently. Photo´s where published of the old and new council. In the former only the bishop and and two others had clerical dress, in the latter all of the 19 members (and of these 14 come from the new seminary created in 1987).

    Again, there is much to improve and the church has imploded (as in the rest of the Western world), but the remaining pusillus grex (cf. Lc 12,32) is on average more conservative then many bloggers/commentators seem to think.

  36. Anonymous10:17 AM


    "About 150 seminarians from France (including around 40 with the SSPX) are Traditionalist. The total number of seminarians for France (excluding the SSPX) stands at about 740."

    I think the total number of seminarians is actually less, rather around 500 (excluding the sspx)

    If you look at the Novus Ordo seminarians, you will se that a good number of them originates from traditional minded order who don't oppose Tradition.

    The key question is how many pure modernists are still ordained. Not many I think, although there are some of course.

  37. Re Mass attendance and PTKP comment

    Figures around 20-30% only of regular Mass attendance were quite the norm in XX C. "catholic" Europe rather than the exception. And probably there are sociological -not religious- reasons why it can not be higher except in close knit communities)

    But french current figures (less than 1 in 10) are really troublesome. Not to speak of the flamish world.

    No matter what one thinks of VII, but giving it stated purpose of a "new flourishing" of the Church, the results absolutely negated its efficacy (and less prominent, but equally trended elswhere in Europe). A new "market strategy" is needed ASAP

  38. Anonymous1:13 PM

    Pink-glasses Linus wrote :
    "Let's get at the root of the problem. What is the real cause?"

    Right, that is precisely something NONE in FrenChurch hierarchy wants to do ...

    The myth of Vatican II, the hermeneutics of rupture, has dominated FrenChurch since the 1960's. We're harvesting what was sown during decades.
    The "root" is this : tearing apart or watering down Catholic teachings, destroying the Catholic priesthood - French bishops expressed publicly their disapproval of the pope's choice of curé d'Ars and the priesthood year, cardinal Vingt-Trois is inviting a rabbi to "preach" in his cathedral for the famous Lent conferences where the greatest heralds of Catholicism spoke, very few French bps care about fighting for life, Bp Nourrichard of Evreux chased away a too traditional priest who was in charge of the most successful parish of his desolated diocese (the Thiberville case), the dissent is general in theological education, the Bp of Langres (Gueneley) scorned in August the 3 sole Roman bishops, heresies are often professed for ex. by Abp Rouet of Poitiers who is considered as the "inspirator" of FrenChurch pastoral orientations etc.

    The "root" of FrenChurch decline is miles and miles long and incredibly thick. This "root" was a thin little thing before Vatican II and the FrenChurch disaster grew up after the Council : you could say that Vatican II is not the cause but was an extraordinary "fertilizer" for all posible heresies and misguided pastorals that were already there before 1965.
    FrenChurch is one the most anti-ratzingerian Church you can find : that is the "root".
    Hatred toward TLM is just a symptom, i agree with you on this.

    oh by the way, the disastrous bp Nourrichard was appointed by pope Benedict XVI among the usual clique of neo-mods and liberal clerics representative of FrenChurch cancer. What D. Thompson calls in Britain the "Magic Circle".


  39. Only 4.5% French attend the Mass once a week or more!? This is almost the same number as in so-called "atheistic" Czech Republic where I live...

  40. Anonymous5:41 PM

    In regard to the cause of the collapse of the Church, which is happening in Canada, for instance, and in France, at a frightening rate, we need to distinguish among causes.

    A cause of something will usually have its own cause and the earlier cause will have a cause and so forth: it maketh for a causal chain.

    The 1960s Revolution was the direct cause of the collapse, and NewMass, an effect of that Revolution, is also a direct cause of the other bad effects we see. However, the 1960s Revolution did not appear out of nothing: it also had a cause. Similarly, the French Revolution had a cause.

    We can take this back to the Fall of Man, I suppose, but that is more a reason for this chain of bad effects; it is more a reason why collapse was possible rather than a guarantee that it would follow. We cannot say that, as the Church grew in vigour, this healthy growth was a cause for a later fall. The secular ideas which the Church combats have grown out of the Protestant Reformation and the French Revolution. On the whole, the Church grew and flourished from the Apostolic Age through the Middle Ages.

    How far back can we trace the cause of those revolutions? This is debateable but my belief is that the Black Death of 1348 is the ultimate cause of our present challenge to Christianity. I have explained this before and will not dwell on it here. Essentially, the massive death in a short time, esp. of innocent children, undermined faith. This led to humanism, Protestantism, and so forth in a long chain.

    However, when we see the state of the Church in, say, 1780 and then see it in, say, 1950, the change was under the surface: most people professed faith in Christ and obedience to Holy Church at both times. But between the Second World War and the present, there was a dramatic change, one so great that it presently threatens the very existence of Christianity. Christianity is presently being reduced very quickly to a remnant in many countries, such as my own. This cataclysmic decline began just after the close of Vatican II. As dramatic reforms were introduced from 1964--even before the Council closed--to 1975, the effect was massive. I know because I was attending Catholic school during that time.

    The New Mass is the expression of a new worldview, and that view is antithetical to Catholic culture. The worldview I am referring to proceeds from a notion that 'science disproves faith'. While we here know that this is absurd, what is necessary is for us to demonstrate what we know and to do so emphatically. But we cannot reverse secularism until we restore what is fundamentally Catholic in the first place: lex orandi, lex credendi: we must act from a citadel of strength, so we must restore the Church in Christ first. The Mass must say to all and sundry: This is a sacred action of Christ in which he offers Himself perpetually to make possible for us the salvation of mankind.

    I expect that the Pope will be making some big changes in the fourth edn. of NewMass. But this is only a step towards a complete restoration of the Traditional Mass, the only legitimate Eucharistic Sacrifice in the West.

    In the mean time, the Pope says that any priest may celebrate TrueMass. When many try, however, they find that they are obstructed by liberal bishops whose careers were made by favouring the Revolution. 'Do I have a wonderful little hospice chaplaincy for *you*, Father Tradition!'. So more is needed to protect our rights. Evreux shows that the Holy Father is serious but he cannot solve this case by case: there must be new general provisions to protect the Mass of Tradition.


  41. Anonymous5:50 PM

    Catholicism in France is in a state of ruin. Old hat news. Who is really interested in that story?

    Newsflash: The Church in France will remain in ruins unless the TLM is restored as the Latin Church's #1 Mass.

    I don't understand why Rome fiddles on that reality.

  42. Oliver6:26 PM

    Indeed, the Church has collapsed in France as it has elsewhere. But it has in the face of a global onslaught which Ratzinger is hurriedly trying to neutralise by appealing to diversity and by being worldly. Although some liberals become conservatives as they age, any idea that he is a restorationist is profoundly mistaken. His goal is to lead an institution that is a junior partner in the global order which is in formation. And his successor will be chosen in order to liberalise the rules regarding contraception, abortion and the role of women in the church. This is what modern Catholics who run the institution want. The future is very bleak indeed.

  43. His goal is to lead an institution that is a junior partner in the global order which is in formation. And his successor will be chosen in order to liberalise the rules regarding contraception, abortion and the role of women in the church. This is what modern Catholics who run the institution want. The future is very bleak indeed.

    Dream on, Oliver.

  44. Flambeaux6:52 PM


    Thank you for doing the heavy lifting of dealing with the lunatics around here.

    It's greatly appreciated by, if no one else, this reader.