Rorate Caeli

The letters are arriving
What can you tell us?

Do you remember this portion of the Papal letter to Bishops which accompanied the publication of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum?
Furthermore, I invite you, dear Brothers, to send to the Holy See an account of your experiences, three years after this Motu Proprio has taken effect. If truly serious difficulties come to light, ways to remedy them can be sought.
A reader in America informs us that his archdiocese received a letter from the Vatican on the application of Summorum Pontificum two weeks ago (just in time for its third anniversary) and is close to sending its response back.

Could you tell us anything, from wherever you are in the world? You may also send us any relevant information on the matter: newcatholic AT gmail DOT com.


Anonymous said...

The Diocese of Greensburg, in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia is still without an EF Mass.

Anonymous said...


ocd sister said...

I'm aware the in the entire island of Puerto Rico (100 mi x 35 mi), with at least 6 dioceses, has only 1 diocese offering the EF 3 times per month in the middle of the afternoon. No other diocese offers the EF, not even on feast days.

Michael said...

3 Masses are offered regularly, one on a weekly basis in the San Francisco Archdiocese. The priest who offers them is openly snubbed by the rest of the Arcdiocese and subjected to constant humiliations. A prominent priest is constantly showing up to count the number attending no doubt in the hope of trying to shut it down.

Mary R. S. said...

Wow, my jaw actually dropped when I read that. Praised be Jesus and Mary! I can't believe I've been watching this happen for the past three years! (I am young, so that was actually about 15% of my life that went by between now and then.) I made a beautiful chocolate cake to celebrate SP, and Eggs Benedict, and we had sushi. Ah, memories. Wow. So the letters are going to be written and sent now. How exciting!

Anonymous said...

As most will surely know, the Diocese of Greensburg is not in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia! Quite the oxymoron!

M. A. said...

Things are not good. After SP we were assigned one FSSP priest for the entire diocese, and he cannot celebrate on Saturdays at the N.O.parish where he resides.(Midwest, USA).

There are absolutely no other priests who celebrate the old Mass. We don't even have the SSPX here.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone tell me, to which Dicastery are the Bishop's letters being sent to specifically? Is it Ecclesia Dei, the CDF in general, or perhaps the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments?

A sure answer would be most helpful, as opposed to conjecture. (I work with people from many different Dioceses around the world who are trying to get the Traditional Mass)

Thanks so much!

Anonymous said...

I live in Salvador Bahia Brazil where there is no EF form. I regard myself as fortunate in that I can usually attend a traditonal Mass at the Familia Beatae Virginis monastery in Candeis about an hours drive fron here. The state of the Church in Brazil is deplorable and I am disappointed that the Holy Father hasn't done more to rein in the heretical bishops and priests.

Anonymous said...

Cincinnati has had the EF for some time now, but they make any priest who wants to celebrate it take exams in front of 3 others who, I suspect, know very little about this form of liturgy.

Anonymous said...

It would be interesting to know how one specific segment of the future of the Church is being serviced by the Extraordinary Form. The segment comprising large homeschooling families.

How many families that attend the EF also homeschool; and if these are large families, how many live within thirty minutes drive of an Extraordinary Form apostolate?

As more and more Catholic families seek sanity (and sanctity) in God's countryside, the EF seems to increase its presence in the cities of men. Obviously, it is necessary to re-evangelize the spiritually dead cities; but here in the real/rural world the EF is almost non-existent (worldwide).

How many vocations are coming from the rural homeschooling Catholic family? How many more would come if the rural homeschooling Catholic parents had the support of a full Parish life?

How many of the EF parishes or apostolates have been established in the city in locations were a stable community had struggled for years? During this struggle how many of these dedicated parishioners lived nearby this location?

This is not a rant. These are serious questions that should be considered by diocesan decision-makers and Fraternities and Institutes of the EF -- exactly where are the stable communities living and growing? Why place an EF in the city when for the last decade the people asking for it have been going back to the land? The families with six sons (and six daughters) do not live in the city (if they do they are pretty wealthy and therefore probably Opus Dei ;-)

Anonymous said...

Beginning in August 2010, Bishop John Douglas Deshotel, an Auxiliary Bishop of the Dallas Diocese, will serve as Pastor of St. Joseph Parish (Richardson, Texas).

Does anybody know whether Bishop John Douglas Deshotel is keen to offer the TLM?



Bill M said...

Archdiocese of Seattle has one EF Mass (FSSP). The Diocese is very long Canada to Oregon. Pacific ocean to Cascade Mt. crest. Their have been two once a month Masses "tolerated" by his Excellency (aside from FSSP) one in Bremerton on a Tuesday night and a Dominican low Mass in SW Washington. I received a letter from the Abp saying that he felt that was adequate. Its 120 miles one way to Seattle from my house. We are praying for a new Abp soon.

Guy Fawkes said...

In the Diocese of Turin, Italy (2 million inhabitants, 98% of nominal Catholics, 20% of sunday mass attendance, 1 EF ghetto since 1992) the bishop Poletto (77, soon to be retired and already prorogated) is wondering what the hell of a "Motu Proprio" is this letter referring to.

Anonymous said...

Here in Sicily there are about 20 dioceses: In only 2 of them is the TLM celebrated with permission of the Local Ordinary (Palermo: Chiesa di San Basilio; Acireale: Chiesa di San Antonio di Padova).

The SSPX celebrate Mass at Palermo and Ravenusa, once a month each, more or less.

At Acireale weekly attendence is about 30, mostly members of Giovanni e Tradizione a group of laypeople guided by Father Vincenzo Nuara, OP, who began the TLM at San Rocco, and after opposition and his departure for Rome (where he now works for Ecclesia Dei), Archbishop Vigo was very responsive to re-establish the TLM first at the tiny Church of San Francesco di Paola, and then at San Anontio.

At San Basilio, Palermo, attendence is 80-100 weekly.

Both at Acireale and Palermo the Mass is Dialogue; at Acireale its low, and at Palermo its High.

I can report that a good number of seminarians throughout the island of Sicily want to say the TLM, and I estimate than more than 2 dozen priests do so in private. The religious orders still oppose it.

The Laity everywhere lament the silliness that has prevailed since the council and I'd say, if they had the option in their town, 20-40% would attend the TLM regularly.

I am told the upper clergy still oppose it, but I hope that with the Pope's visit to Palermo on Oct. 3, he will emphasize the importance of promoting the liberties he has granted, as the only real obstacle here is fear of persecution from the bishops or leading clerics in the Curias throughout Sicily.

Opposition is mostly because the TLM is seen as reactionary, or tied to the SSPX: most clergy have no experience with Catholics who want the TLM and are not affiliated with the SSPX.

Fortunately when the TLM comes back, it will do so quickly in Sicily, since every parish has conserved the old missals and vestments, more or less; since they treasure their history. The only problem is the the high altars have been either neutered, or obstructed by table altars placed infront of them.


Br. Alexis Bugnolo

96017 NOTO (SR)

Anonymous said...

In Belgium the EF is only celebrated in very few places and rarely. For example (if I am not mistaken) Sint-Jakob's Church in Antwerpen has EF once a month, thanks to the parish priest (though he doesn't offer the Mass himself). The Institute of Christ the King have a small apostolate in Belgium (a school), and here and there a priest offers Mass, but it is certainly not widespread. Pray for our priests.

Et Expecto said...

I understand that in England and Wales, bishops are beginning to prepare their reports for Rome.

In the case of one diocese, it seems that the bishop has asked every parish for a report. Otherwise, bishops are being quiet about it.

Francisco said...

One of the most important Archdiocese of Latin America with almost Pope cardinal Bergoglio has all TLM forbidden except for two authorized by the cardinal and celebrated by two ministers who hate the Motu Proprio and do not do it accordingly (lay people read, no maniple nor reasonable vestments, etc.)

Anonymous said...

The Archdiocese of Mobile in AL has one Mass on Sundays in Mobile at a church in an area with serious gang violence. Most people in the area are afraid to attend. Those of us in the rest of the diocese has have nothing. We have requested the Mass at the local level, at the diocesan level with the Bishop, and even to Ecclesia Dei last summer. The responses have been negative at the local. No response from the Bishop. Ecclesia Dei sent a card last Fall indicating receipt of our request, but no reply as of yet. This may be a very long road for many. Prayers for patience are greatly appreciated.

Henrici said...

Re Anonymous @ 28 May, 2010 04:12

Mine is a small southern diocese in the heart of the bible belt, one of the sparsest in the U.S in per capita ratio of Catholics.

Our first monthly indult Mass was a couple of years before SP, celebrated by FSSP priests coming from outside the diocese, as we had no TLM-ready diocesan priests. (I believe the FSSP does a lot of this "outreach" work, going out from their established apostolates as home bases.)

Now, though the upper administration may not be described as especially friendly to it, we have 6 diocesan priests celebrating the TLM, all but one of them ordained since 2000. We have weekly Masses each Sunday in two locations, one in the see city, and the other alternating between two more rural churches. We also have occasional "private" daily TLMs at other locations.

Although several types of people are represented, especially young folks, the core of our Latin Mass community consists of home-schooling families. From the "production" of vocations so far -- both nuns and seminarians, it would not be surprising if in at least some years this relative handful of large home school families contributed as many vocations as the rest of the diocese combined.

Anonymous said...

What ever happened to the explanatory document that was supposed to follow??

Mr. Ortiz said...

In the Washington, DC, area of the USA there are at least two EF Masses per week.

St. John the Beloved, in McClean, VA, offers a 12:00 Sunday EF Mass that is simply gorgeous with its chant, etc.

Anonymous said...

The Franciscans of the Immaculate, worldwide, either already offer the EF or are in process of it. Some offer it exclusively as in Lanherne in the UK. The ordinations for the Order are being done in the traditional form.

Archdiocese of Denver has an FSSP parish which, after more than 10 years as a 'community' was officially designated a parish last year. There is an EF in Boulder on the 4th Sunday of the month. And I have heard of another TLM offered perhaps monthly in Denver but I do not recall where. I live some distance away. Bishop Conley, the auxiliary, is known to offer the EF.

Mickey said...

I have concerns with regards to that part of SP. Most dioceses to my perception have been hesitant about the Motu Proprio, and some places unjustly restrict it, despite its Universal Promulgation by the Holy Father. What kind of input would the Holy See get? With the above I can see most diocese saying "there have been no requests for it(EF)".

Anonymous said...

The Diocese of Raleigh is fortunate-- 3-4 weekly EF Masses, 2-3 more monthly EF Masses, and regular Sung Masses in at least two locations. There have been confirmations in the extraordinary form, and Bishop Burbidge is supportive.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Beginning in August 2010, Bishop John Douglas Deshotel, an Auxiliary Bishop of the Dallas Diocese, will serve as Pastor of St. Joseph Parish (Richardson, Texas).

Does anybody know whether Bishop John Douglas Deshotel is keen to offer the TLM?



I wouldn't count my chickens if I were you. He and his liturgies are, IMO, underwhelming. He is better than most in the diocese, but that doesn't mean much.

Anonymous said...

When the Pope offers the TLM regularly, then said Mass will be offered throughout the world.

As long as the Pope refuses to promote the TLM to the hilt, the Traditional Roman Mass will remain confined to relatively few parishes.

Mickey said...

I would also like to say that SP would not be able to produce its potential fruits until the teaching of the EF in seminaries is promulgated. That being said, it is impossible for Parishes all over the world to be exposed to the benefit of the Extraordinary Form since it is not provided for them. If the EF is not taught (in seminaries), how could it be passed on (to parishes) . We will always end up hearing the lousy excuse "no one knows how to do it" or "I don't know how to do it". It is not enough for there to be only groups or institutes attached to the EF, it has to be taken up by ALL PARISHES. I am not saying here that all masses in parishes should be replaced by the EF, but at least give the parishioners some level of exposure to the EF. If most parishioners are shut off from seeing the EF, how could we really give a fair account of SP to the Holy See. I just hope the Holy Father will see clearly that Submission of Mind and Will (LG 25) to him has been withheld with regards to Summorum Pontificum. I hope that the Holy Father will get a fair and truthful account with regards to the experience of SP.

Anonymous said...

Before Summorum Pontificum: one indult Mass location in the diocese, Sunday Mass and confessions only, requests for sacraments in the traditional forms routinely denied.

Now: four locations in the diocese have the TLM every Sunday; one has daily Mass; marriages, funerals, First Communions, etc. are arranged in the traditional rites without interference; some additional private Masses are being said on occasion in other places; the young priests and seminarians are expressing interest in the TLM.

This is all because of Summorum Pontificum. The bishop here is still not a friend of tradition, but he has accepted that there are certain things he can no longer restrict.

Our situation here is not perfect, but... DEO GRATIAS!! Thank you, Holy Father!!

Jason said...

In the Archdiocese of New Orleans, we have St. Patrick's in N.O. proper which has a weekly EF on Sunday at 9:30. St. Patrick's has never been without a weekly TLM. In Metairie we have an EF at St. Benilde each Saturday at 7:00 am. And in Kenner we have an EF Mass each Saturday at 5:30. In Kenner we also have an SSPX Chapel which offers Mass daily. I wish it were more but it seems we are fortunate in our diocese compared to some that I'm reading here.

Anonymous said...

Does anybody know whether Bishop John Douglas Deshotel is keen to offer the TLM?

"I wouldn't count my chickens if I were you. He and his liturgies are, IMO, underwhelming. He is better than most in the diocese, but that doesn't mean much."

That doesn't sound promising.

Liturgy at St. Joseph's parish (Richardson, Texas) is mediocre — ugly "worship space," altar girls, piano and tambourines, feminized Mass, shorts, T-shirts, flip-flops, about 30 percent leave Mass early...typical Novus Ordo parish.

As our Website boasts, the parish is "vibrant" as the result of scores of lay ministries — not Liturgy, Confessions, etc....

...but as the result of everybody and his uncle having his or her lay ministry.

Our retiring pastor possesses not one bit of interest in the TLM.

I guess that won't change when Bishop Deshotel takes charge of the parish.

What a shame.

Anonymous said...

Bishop John Douglas Deshotel

"He and his liturgies are, IMO, underwhelming."

"His liturgies?"

By simply obeying liturgical teachings, "his" Mass would be "overwhelming."

Anonymous said...

Bishops in Brazil are sabotaging the TLM.

Anonymous said...

Does anybody know whether Bishop John Douglas Deshotel is keen to offer the TLM?

"I wouldn't count my chickens if I were you."

Who could assail the following approach?

1. I will write to Bishop Deshotel prior to his taking over as pastor of St. Joseph's Church (Richardson, Texas).

2. I will indicate that Holy Mother Church teaches that Latin Church liturgies are expected to promote Latin and Gregorian Chant.

3. I will indicate that Summorum Pontificum states that pastors should accept requests "to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962."

4. I will indicate that as I'm certain that he is obedient to Holy Mother Church's teachings, I will remain confident that Bishop Deshotel will promote Latin, Gregorian Chant and Extraordinary Form Masses at St. Joseph's parish.

Seriously, isn't it that simple?

Leo Darroch said...

Readers of Rorate Caeli may be interested to know that the International Federation Una Voce has just started a consultation exercise; the third since the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum was promulgated.
In September 2008 all member associations were asked to provide information about the implementation of the motu proprio in their countries during the first year. This first report was presented in Rome to the PCED and a copy for the Holy Father was entrusted to Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos. Subsequently, I received a letter from the Substitute at the Secretariat of State thanking me for the report and advising me to contact the Prefect of the Papal Household for a brief audience with the Holy Father.
The Una Voce Federation then conducted a second consultation exercise in September 2009 to monitor developments during the second year of the motu proprio and I was able to place this report directly into the hands of the Holy Father on 28th October 2009 (see our website for report and photographs). I was accompanied by Vice President Jack Oostveen, Secretary Rodolfo Vargas Rubio, and Treasurer Mrs Monika Rheinschmitt. We were able to spend several minutes explaining the contents of our report and present other documentation. During that visit to Rome we also presented copies of our report to all the Prefects and Secretaries of all the major dicasteries and also to l’Osservatore Romano.
I believe this forthcoming Una Voce report on the third anniversary of the motu proprio, which coincides with the accounts being produced by our bishops, will be of vital importance in the safeguarding of the traditional Mass and liturgy. It is no secret that many bishops are against Summorum Pontificum and their reports may well reflect this antipathy. It is for this reason that I have asked our members for comprehensive reports and documentation that truly reflects the situation in their countries so that Rome will be in no doubt about the reality of the implementation of the motu proprio. Despite the lack of episcopal enthusiasm in many parts there is a real growth in interest in the traditional liturgy; the International Federation Una Voce is receiving requests from many parts of the world for information and help, and none more so than in Central and South America – and from young people. Anyone who is not a member of any group and would like more information may I suggest that you check out our website and contact the member association in your country or area. Although it is right and proper for the Pope to consult his bishops it is quite clear from the motu proprio that the Holy Father's concern is for priests and the laity. Therefore, it is perfectly in order for the laity to make their feelings known to Rome about how it is being implemented.

Leo Darroch,
President - Foederatio Internationalis Una Voce.

Stu said...

Even with some of the bad news stories here, I ask all to think about how far things have come in only three years. Much to be thankful for in my opinion. Such success will continue and it will be exponential. In ten years, things will look even better.

Thank you Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Assistant Bishop Mark J. Seitz of the Dallas Diocese will serve as Pastor of All Saints Parish, Dallas, Texas.

Does anybody know whether he is keen to promote Latin Masses?

Thank you.

Gideon Ertner said...

In the diocese of Copenhagen we have the TLM 2 Sundays a month, up from 1 Sunday a month before the MP. Our Bishop is relatively supportive and has also celebrated the Mass himself (both Missa Cantata and Missa Pontificalis), but the big problem is a lack of priests who are willing to celebrate, and our Bishop is not prepared to press them.

Anonymous said...

Diocese of Spokane has one EF that I've never attended due to distance, but we have an SSPX Carmelite Monastery and two sedevacantists chapels within a twenty-five mile radius of that lone Mass. Our bishop said that is not "much interest" in the old Mass here.

Pray for us. Our new bishop will be announced to us in June.

Anonymous said...

Too much reference here to bishops. The point of Summorum Pontificum is that it's up to individual priests. You can't have TLMs without priests who want to celebrate it. If they want to, they'll find a way. The bishop's effect is marginal. In our diocese we have more TLM-ready priests that would be justified numerically by the number of TLM laymen wanting the TLM. This despite the fact that our bishop has zero interest and offers little or no support (so far as I know).

Mar said...

To Anonymous 28 May, 2010 21:09,

To answer your last question first, seriously, no, it isn't that simple - as you are about to find out if indeed you *are* serious. (I'm assuming that your question was not entirely ironic).

In relation to your second point:

"2. I will indicate that Holy Mother Church teaches that Latin Church liturgies are expected to promote Latin and Gregorian Chant."

I would suggest that you make use of the following 'ammunition'. For Latin, Pope John XXIII's document in praise of Latin 'Veterum Sapientia'. This was written in late February, 1962, just a few months before the start of Vatican II and a short time before the Pope's death. Thus it reflects his mature and well-considered thinking and cannot be dismissed as one of the 'sins of his youth'.

For Gregorian Chant, Pope Paul VI's document in support of Gregorian Chant 'Jubilate Deo'. This was written in mid-April, 1974, almost a decade after the close of Vatican II and about four years before the Pope's death. It consists of a collection of chants issued as a "personal gift" of the Pope to Catholic Bishops of the world and heads of religious orders. The accompanying instruction directs them to teach this "Minimum Repertoire of Plainchant" to all the faithful.

To my knowledge both of these documents can be downloaded from the internet.

Perhaps you could make copies and present them to the Bishop, saying: "My Lord, have you read these?" Hopefully that won't kill the conversation!

But seriously, if you intend to seriously exhort your Bishop, I will pray for you.

Catholica Coreana said...

The entirety of Korea still has yet to offer an EF Mass, and in the Seoul Archdiocese even ended a a regularly scheduled Latin NO at the cathedral.

Anonymous said...

There's really not too much reference here to the bishops. On the other side, the blogger who claims this does have a point: in mnay dioceses, the problem is a lack of qualified priests or interest amnong the laity.

I know a bit about the situation since I am in constant contact with Latin Mass contact people in order to help compile the Mater Dei list of Mr. Carl Schwalm.

There is no question that some bishops are actively discouraging our Mass. In a few cases, bishops threaten or imply threats to priests who would offer our Mass. I would rather not name individual priests in order to protect the them but I can write about situations.

Just yesterday, a chancery liturgical tsar told me that the Bishop had forbidden any *public* T.L.M.s said without his explicit permission--which he refuses to give. In another case, a Diocese in the U.S. south-west, a Bishop regarded well for his support of the T.L.M. (and who has allowed it widely) nevertheless said that every one of them is forbidden until approved specifically by him. That's not what S.P. says. I'm not complaining in his case because he has not been obstructive.

Then there is the man I do insist on naming, Bishop Ramirez of Las Cruces, N.M., who said that he would allow the T.L.M. in his Diocese "over my dead body". He has been true to his word: there are none on any basis in his see. Fortunately for us, this bad man is about 73 years old now. Tick tock, tick tock.

In the case of the U.S.A., one area of hold-outs is West Texas and environs (dioceses of Amarillo, Lubbock, Laredo, San Angelo, Gallup, Las Cruces). Also doing poorly are the Western Great Lakes area (Superior, Duluth, Crookston, Saginaw, and, until very recently, Marquette).

Then there are certain problem bishops in Las Vegas, Steubenville, and Greensburg. But I'm not naming any priests involved.

It is true that, in many cases, the probem is only that there is little lay interest or few qualified and interested priests, or both. This might be true in Dioceses such as Jackson, Grand Island, Bismarck, Great Falls- Billings, and a few others. Note, however, that ALL THREE Alaskan dioceses now have our Mass on the every-Sunday basis. These include the D. of Juneau, which has the lowest Catholic population by far of any American Diocese (it is only 5,000). If Juneau can have one, why not Las Vegas? Eh, Bishop Pepe?


Adeodatus said...

Austin, Texas has the EF every Sunday at the cathedral itself (a beauty!) at 3:30pm. One Sunday per month is High Mass, the rest are Low Mass. It is well attended and well conducted.

Anonymous said...

The Atlanta Archdiocese normally has three Masses offered every day using the Roman missal of 1962: two diocesan daily Masses (parish staffed by two resident FSSP priests)and one daily Mass offered by the resident priest at the SSPX chapel here. When any of the priests is out of town, of course, that changes the number of daily Masses.

Cruise the Groove. said...

Mr Perkins

Please allow me to comment on your refrence to the "Mater Dei" website on the list of approved TLM's.
Unfortunately it is woefully not up to date, at least for the state that I live.
There are a couple of TLM,s that have been canclled and a couple sites that offer the TLM at different times than are listed on the web page.
I have contacted Carl at Mater Dei, several times and he has not changed the schedule accordingly.
Perchance you could help?
God bless.

Henrici said...

Re Anonymous @ 28 May, 2010 16:03

“When the Pope offers the TLM regularly, then said Mass will be offered throughout the world.”

I believe it is self-defeating to pin our hopes on this, because it simply is never going to happen. It seems obvious to me -- with the wishful-thinking blinders off -- that Pope Benedict will never offer the TLM publicly even once, yet alone regularly.

Why? Because, whatever his personal affection for the TLM and its devotees may be, his obligation as pope is to the preponderant majority of Catholics worldwide whose Mass will continue to be the ordinary form (and for the foreseeable future would be, no matter what the pope did). So, instead of any general restoration on the TLM, his single-minded emphasis must be on using the TLM as an anchor and exemplar for the reform of the reform.

Think about it. If he were to celebrate a TLM broadcast worldwide on TV, what would that say about the Novus Ordo? We all know that what it would say is true, but as pope he cannot afford to say it, because the Novus Ordo is the ordinary form of the Roman rite of the Church, and will continue to be, however much we are able to widen access to the extraordinary form.

Anonymous said...

In the Diocese of Harrisburg, we have several opportunities for the TLM, all due to the personal generosity, or paternal encouragement (when it comes to priests) of our former bishop, Kevin Rhoades. Bishop Rhoades, as most of you know, became Bishop of South Bend back in December.

Our primary Mass is an FSSP apostolate in beautiful old church some 300 yards up the street from the cathedral, and 500 from the state capitol.
The symbolism couldn't be stronger.

We're a complete traditional community, with two Sunday Masses, daily Masses, and all seven sacraments in the EF. Before he left, it was Bishop Rhoades stated intention to erect us a personal parish per SP.

In Lancaster City, we have another weekly Sunday Mass offered by a diocesan priest.

In Elysburg, Bishop Rhoades invited in traditional Carmelite sisters from Lincoln, Nebraska. They're served by an FSSP chaplain, as well as diocesan priests who offer the Mass.

Father John Trigilio, whom you all know, a priest of our diocese, offers the TLM on a regular basis during the week.

In York, a Capuchin Franciscan has offered a regular Sunday TLM for some time now.

In another part of the diocese, a young priest has begun to offer a Low Mass periodically on Sundays.

I know of one or two other locations where priests are offering the Mass off and on as well.

Although SP is for priests, a good bishop makes all the difference.

~ Belloc

Enoch said...

I'd like to comment on Bill M's post from May 28, 5:33.

We are fortunate here in Seattle to have a daily TLM (and two on Sunday) offered by the FFSP, who were invited to the diocese by the Archbishop. The FSSP priest was hoping to have a TLM offered in Tacoma later in the day on Sunday, but that hasn't happened yet.

However, I can understand your frustration in not having a TLM available near you. It is sad that with the exception of Bremerton, there are no other TLM's from Canada to Oregon, in Western Washington. Do you think that there are any priests who would be willing to offer the TLM outside of Seattle? My understanding is that SP allows for any priests to offer the TLM if they so choose. From what you wrote, it seems that the Archbishop is not complying with SP.

I recall that a TLM was offered at St. Rose of Lima in Ephrata until about two years ago when the priest had to move to California. But Ephrata is in the Yakima diocese, I think.

Jerry,TOSF said...

Henrici I would add that the Pope doesn't want the TLM to be the norm that is why he doesn't say it publicly.

If he said it only once publicly it would send a 'safe' message to many Catholics and would do a lot of good, i.e. put liberal Bishops, priests and laity in their place. Many sleepy Catholics would clear the fog from their souls.

That one act would set a strong example (as a Pope should - by God he needs to) but would not in itself signal the end of the NO as such. The Pope will continue to claim that they are two equal forms of the same rite.

The NO is doomed to eventual failure even with the reform of the reform. We can only hope to live long enough to see its end.

I liken the scope of impact of a TLM said publicly by His Holiness to when Pope JP2 'desired' the luminous mysteries.

Jerry, TOSF

Alexandre said...

I’m from Brazil (diocese of Franca/SP) and the siuation in my country is not that good. Many bishops simplpy dislike the TLM e there are many dioceses without a single Mass avaliable.

But in my own diocese things are quite different.

Both bishops that have directed our diocese since the MP was realesed supported it. They have permitted the Tridentine Masses to be celebrated in the Cathedral itself.

The priests don't like the idea of celebrating a Mass in Latin. But they generally don't oppose it. There are one priest who is already sayng the Mass and there is a second one who accepted our petition. Other priests showed thenselves simpathetic to the idea.

So, I think that the Tradition is coming back to my diocese, although we still have a long way ahead.

Alexandre said...

I’m from Brazil (diocese of Franca/SP) and the siuation in my country is not that good. Many bishops simplpy dislike the TLM e there are many dioceses without a single Mass avaliable.

But in my own diocese things are quite different.

Both bishops that have directed our diocese since the MP was realesed supported it. They have permitted the Tridentine Masses to be celebrated in the Cathedral itself.

The priests don't like the idea of celebrating a Mass in Latin. But they generally don't oppose it. There are one priest who is already sayng the Mass and there is a second one who accepted our petition. Other priests showed thenselves simpathetic to the idea.

So, I think that the Tradition is coming back to my diocese, although we still have a long way ahead.

Anonymous said...

We live in the Diocese of Sacramento California. Last year, I read that there are over 800,000 people in this Diocese that identify themselves as Catholic. Of that number, about 135,000 attend Mass (Novus Ordo) that is, regularly.

Of that number, Traditional Catholics are just a tiny little fraction of that 135,000 that actually attend mass at all.

As far as traditional masses go, we have one SSPX Chapel, and one FSSP parish in Sacramento City. I don't know about the SSPX, but the FSSP is full of families that drive from all around the state, mostly a 1-2 hour drive.

This is St. Stephen the First Martyr parish. It's in a rough part of town, neighborhood. But it has a large number of masses on Sunday, and at least once a day (and sometimes more) on other days. They are fully functional and overflowing with activities and programs.

When you head north, you have one church offering the Latin Mass weekly, that's St. John the Baptist church in Chico, CA. There doesn't seem to be any programs or other offerings other than the Latin Mass.

We live further north in Siskiyou County and there are no Latin Masses here. We either have to drive 2 hours to Chico, or 3 1/2 hours to Sacramento.

There is said to be an SSPX chapel in Klamath Falls, Oregon, which is a little over an hour from here. However it's not an active community from what I can tell and they seem to only offer Mass once a month.

We've only been to the Sacramento FSSP parish ourselves.

Henrici said...

Jerry: “I would add that the Pope doesn't want the TLM to be the norm that is why he doesn't say it publicly.”

In a sense, this is true, but it may require some amplification. Unlike so many bishops, it seems obvious (to me) that Pope Benedict is personally very fond of the TLM, and regrets the artificial “fabrication” of the Novus Ordo. I don’t know whether he celebrates the TLM privately, but wouldn’t be surprised to find that he does. I’d bet that if he’d been able to retire back to Bavaria, he would have returned to celebrating the TLM daily as a “mere” priest.

But he’s not a mere priest. As pope, he must do not what he likes, but what is best for the whole Church. He knows that the Church cannot go back to the past; no general Church-wide restoration of the TLM makes any sense at all, when nowhere near enough priests willing and able to celebrate it are unavailable (or will be during his lifetime or ours). If he were to attempt to promulgate such a restoration, it would be a non-starter at best, a bad joke at worst.

So, the Church must proceed to the future from where it is now, with the ordinary form being the normative Roman rite. Reform of the reform is the only way to get from here to there – “there” being a Roman rite restored to continuity with tradition, perhaps essentially equivalent to the slight revision of the TLM Mass that the Council Fathers actually envisioned. So the Pope must devote all his real effort and ammunition to this end, not to some quixotic effort at an impossible imposition of the TLM. Even though this might be what he wishes were possible, as all of us here do.

Surely this is all so obvious that anyone who doesn’t see it has simply been hiding in the dark. The saving grace is that promotion of the TLM as the crown jewel of the Roman rite is key to his plan for an organic restoration of the Roman rite as a whole.

Anonymous said...

Mass in Latin? "Over my dead body" I was told in Forest Hills, Queens. "Not while I am Pastor of this Church"...August 2007...Nothing has changed.

Anonymous said...

Bishops who keep obstructing the priests and Faithful who ask for this Mass is the key problem to the full implementation of the MP. That is what must be dealt with. Fighting with your Bishop who no longer has a right to obstruct the MP is not a thing many want to do. Therein lies the problem. That must be addressed. The EF should be taught in ALL seminaries as well as Latin and the situation will correct itself over time. The is the core and where it must start. The Holy Fahter knows this as well, I am sure. Let's hope the clarification will address this. This lot of Bishops for the most part are useless. The hatred and obstruction of the MP and the Holy Father's wishes are why so many have lost the Faith. They are directly responsible for the loss of many souls and should be reminded of that often. They represent the rot of the Church more than anything or anyone else. And it shows in the attendance levels at Mass ever since the suppression the the TLM.

Anonymous said...

Mar said...

"I would suggest that you make use of the following 'ammunition'."

Thank you.

Perhaps I should simply quote the General Instruction of the Roman Missal #41:

"All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy.

"Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord's Prayer, set to the simpler melodies."

The Church teaches that Gregorian Chant is proper to the Roman Liturgy.

The Church teaches that Latin prayers are to be employed during the Ordinary of the Mass.

I am serious when I state that "it's that simple" when I write to assistant Bishop Deshotel, who will serve (beginning this August) as pastor of St. Joseph parish (Dallas Diocese).

Bishops and priests, among others, must obey Holy Mother Church's teachings.

It is that simple.

Anonymous said...

Cruise the Groove writes:

"Please allow me to comment on your refrence to the "Mater Dei" website on the list of approved TLM's.
Unfortunately it is woefully not up to date, at least for the state that I live."

Do you live in the Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston (West Virginia)? There have been problems there, sadly. The Mater Dei site is by far the most up-to-date list on the web for the U.S.A. and Canada. Unfortunately, it is not possible to keep up to date with everything because celebrants do not ring us up every time they change a time or venue.


Anonymous said...

Diocese of Ferns in Ireland

A group has been writing to the Bishop for over a year now. No correspondence has been received by the group from the Bishop's office in this time. Some members have been told that there is a process of "discernment at deanery level" on the issue. However, nothing emerges but silence. Next step will be Ecclesia Dei in the coming weeks as we have done all we can.

Very disappointed in the lack of pastoral care shown but please God some light will break through eventually.

Mornac said...

From today’s news bulletin of St. John Cantius Parish in Chicago:

Roman Visitation

On June 7th, Bishop Joseph Perry, Fr. Frank, Fr. Al, Fr. Jim, Fr. Dennis, and Fr, Brendan depart for Rome.

Bishop Perry has graciously given of his time to join us on our pilgrimage to Rome. We are going to present to the Ecclesia Dei Commission our report on the implementation of the Motu Proprio. We will also visit the Office for the Causes of the Saints to learn about the progress of Augustine John Tolton, the first black Roman Catholic priest in the United States, who was assigned to Chicago. Tolton led the development and construction of St. Monica’s Catholic Church as a black “national parish church”, completed in 1893 [same year as St. John’s was founded] at 36th and Dearborn on the South Side. We will also visit Cardinal Franc Rode, head of the Institutes of Consecrated Life and present the work of he Canons Regular. Finally we will visit our good friend Archbishop Raymond Burke of the Apostolic Signatura. We will remember all of your intentions at the altar and please pray for us.

Enoch said...

Anonymous wrote on May 30:

"Fighting with your bishop who no longer has a right to obstuct the MP is not a thing many want to do."

I'd like to mention that fighting with a bishop regarding the MP is indeed something that should not be done. If a bishop is against the proper implementation of the MP, fighting or arguing with him is not likely to help. We must always be patient, prudent, charitable, and respectful when talking with a bishop of the Church. Even if they do indeed hate the TLM, fighting with them over it is not going to help; in fact, it is more likely to cause them to dig in their heels in not allowing the TLM to be freely offered as it should be.

Instead, it is important to be charitable, and if this does not work, then much prayer and penance is needed, and keep the dialogue going with not give up. Be a squeaky wheel, but a humble and holy squeaky wheel, so as to set a good example of what the TLM has enabled us to be. If we are uncharitable with the bishops, it does not refect well on the fruits of the TLM.

Anonymous said...

"A great Catholic renaissance in Ukraine may be at risk"

Anonymous said...

There is no TLM in my country, Costa Rica, C.A.
I have make an inquiry over the phone with the Archdiocese in San José, the Capital City, but they responded roughly that the TLM was "obsolete".
I have contacte some old clergy who know it, but they are rueful about the subject.
I wonder if any one at Rorate or IFUV could help us in this respect by informing me of their contact here.
I have seen a world wide directory at the Latin Mass Society, I think, and our country is not listed, but Guatemala and el Salvador are, in Central America.

Timothy Mulligan said...

Enoch, you forgot to add something to prayer, penance and humility in dealing with recalcitrant bishops: an appeal to the Ecclesia Dei Commission. That's the complete approach.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous Charles:
So the TLM is "obsolete", and indeed it is!!. 1500 years old and counting; but so is Our Lord 2000 years old.

Anonymous said...

On 'fighting' with Bishops:

Look, priests have a RIGHT to offer the T.L.M. and faithful have a RIGHT to have their petitions for it received positively. No, don't fight with your Bishop. But if he obstructs the T.L.M., follow up prayer with a little action: Send a complaint to the P.C.E.D. and be frank about your Bishop's attitude. Call a spade a spade. Charity must be grounded in truth.


Anonymous said...

Dear Mr. Mulligan:

Well put. I add that, if a priest is determined to offer our Mass and is qualified to do so, he has a right to proceed, even if not one single person has asked for it. A parish priest, under S.P., can offer our Mass even publicly on his own authority alone. Read Article 5.1 carefully: there is no restriction, no "only" if faithful ask for it. Read Article 1 and then read Canon 837.1.

Of course, I am not encouraging any priest to take this route and stand on his rights. Priests considering this should be aware of the possible consequences. Diocesan bishops control appointments and transfers, and there is always a hospice or hospital or prison chaplaincy available somewhere.

This is why we need our own personal ordinariates, at least for our thirty-some traditionalist orders and societies.


Anonymous said...

"So the TLM is "obsolete", and indeed it is!!. 1500 years old and counting"

1100 at best. Probably around 900.

Jordanes said...

An Anonymous commenter wishes us to believe that the Mass of the Roman Rite is no older than 1,100 years. One wonders why he holds to such an opinion in the face of solid evidence that the Mass of the Roman Rite, the traditional Latin Mass (TLM), is far older than circa A.D. 900. "1500 years and counting" is far closer to the most probable age than "1100 at best." The Roman liturgy was rendered into Latin by A.D. 500 (some think it was well before that), and by approximately A.D. 600 the form of its canon was recognisably that which it has had ever since.

Anonymous said...


maybe it's because of the Franco-Gallican influence, if not just replacement of the Roman Rite by the Franco-Gallican hybrid?

Anonymous said...

Jordanes is right (except that the use of Latin is much older than he thinks).

Gallican influence? Essentially, there was a formative period for the T.L.M. from perhaps the 4th to 6th centuries. Then there was another period of *relatively* great change, ranging from, say, 900 to 1150. Most of the changes in this period, such as the addition of the Gloria in other than papal Masses, were *additions*. Addition is the least disrputive form of liturgical change. There is no question that the Rite of 600 is the Rite of 1200 is the Rite as printed in 1474 (with the Roman Offertory then perhaps only a century old and the last major part added) -- is the Rite of 1962.

Liturgiologists speculate that all the Rites of East and West proceed from a 'Common Rite' of subapostolic times. It is difficult to trace a point at which there was one 'Rite'. Presumably, in the earliest period, a general order of prayers was followed (imitating a synagogue system) but much would have depended on the preferences of local bishops or individual celebrants.

One this is certain: the period of development of an initial Rite of Rome is extremely ancient and perhaps just as old as are the venerable Eastern Rites. Some liturgiologists think that a change in liturgical language from Greek to Latin may have occurred as early as the second century.


Crouchback said...

The North of England, Cumbria specifically have not changed, there are a few masses in out of the way places, but nothing in the parishes. Scotland is no better, the masses that there are seem to be tacked on to parish time tables, no serious catechises is taking place. The "Professional Laity" are very hostile. I get the feeling that the Bishops, priests and religious only ever listen to to these self selecting cadres.

Unless something is done to make them see the mess we are in the Church can never escape the death spiral that we are witnessing

traditionaltroubleshooter said...

Answering an earlier question. This homeschooling family of five drives 140 miles round trip from the Little Rock Diocese (whole state of Arkansas) which has no love of anything that even smells like insence, to Our Lady of the Annunciation Monastary at Clear Creek. All Latin all the time. Daily High and Low Mass, Vesper, Nunce Terce etc. Boys and men join the monks for meals. Confession and spiritual direction always available. Beautiful creek to wade in and picnic after mass on Sunday. This is in Biship Slattery of Tulsa Diocese territory. Our little slice of heaven. Lots of Catholic homeschool families in attendance.


Crouchback said...

Where you need to keep an eye on is Lourdes......all "The Very Best".....and that is meant to be heavily ironic......can be found there......The English and Scottish diocese are a complete disgrace.

No wonder Scotland has just closed it's seminary.....I believe they are in single figures as to numbers of seminarians

In Pgh said...

Slow going in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We have a Latin Mass Community with over 1,000 registered members attached to a Novus Order parish. We have two Masses each Sunday (High & Low), First Fridays, every Saturday, Holy Day, and selected other major feasts, including Holy Week, all served by a diocesan priest as our chaplain, but we had all this before SP. Nothing has changed over the past three years. We do not have a full time priest, daily Mass, or our own parish.