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ReplyDeleteHere it is:
ReplyDeletehttp://tinyurl.com/4h75eja
Denis
I've fixed the link. Please try again.
ReplyDeleteEvidently Cardinal Burke believes the ancient Roman Mass to be an integral part of rebuilding Catholic culture in the West. He seems an impeccable prelate in a declined age of indifference. I find myself always wishing him vigorous success whatever he pursues. He's not without an alert intelligence aware of every possibility inherent in his office, still I always find in him a motive of unostentatious love, the caritas of the Christ. And I'm always interested to follow news of him.
ReplyDeleteTom:
ReplyDeleteCardinal Burke's speeches are full of references to Benedict XVI and John Paul II and Vatican II. Nothing suggests that he is a "Traditionalist". If ever he becomes Pope we can expect another papacy in the Wojtylian-Ratzingerian tradition. Just sayin'.
Relatively speaking, Cardinal Burke is a good stalwart of some basic Catholic truths and values, but this is relative only, I'm afraid. As Anonymous-08:27 aptly notes, this entire address is littered with John Paul II, Second Vatican, and Benedict XVI, as though Catholicism reset itself to year 0 in 1965.
ReplyDeleteWhile I appreciate the Cardinal's concerns, it's increasingly difficult to viscerally identify and sympathize with such admonishments, as the Vatican of the past 40 years has all but bashed, slashed, and trashed the Social Reign and Kingship of Christ and sought to erase it from our collective theological consciousness.
A good start would be for our prelates to seriously reread the encyclicals of the 1800s and first half of the 1900s and start taking what is epoused there to heart.
Anon @ 8:27,
ReplyDeleteTom is exactly right, as are you. The very last thing the Church and the Mass needs is a "traditionalist" pope in the sense the word may imply. One whose efforts to "take us back"--for instance, to a time when the typical parish celebration of the TLM did not match its typically glorious celebration now -- would be ineffectual and ignored by wayward bishops.
What we need for the restoration of faith and liturgy is a pope in continuity with tradition who can lead our bishops and the Church forward from where we are now. Pope Ratzinger has begun this restoration as best possible in the present unfortunate circumstances, and a Pope Burke would ensure its continuation.
What miserable morons some of the people who read this blog and comment are. The man quotes Vatican II and JP II ergo, he is not traditional enough. Absurd. You drag down and set back every good effort of the traditional movement.
ReplyDeleteSo the answer to the Death of the Christian West is more JPII-style "New Evangelization"??? Yes, that worked SO well for us last time. I believe it ended in what JPII himself called "silent apostasy".
ReplyDeleteThen we look for an answer in the Hegelian dialectic given to us by BXVI who just announced a pan-religious Assisi III and is overseeing a fast track canonization of the Pope who gave us silent apostasy and the clerical abuse scandal?
Once again conservative Conciliar Prelates identify and can see the crisis and death of faith, but like madmen they keep trying larger doses of the cause. It's like fretting about a building on fire as you keep dousing it with gasoline to try to put it out.
I would appreciation any elucidation at all as to why Cardinal Burke is being spoken of a Papabile.
ReplyDeleteConventional wisdom would have it that Americans by definition are not Papabile ...
But I am genuinely wondering ...
Cardinal Burke's speeches are full of references to Benedict XVI and John Paul II and Vatican II.
ReplyDeleteYes, we can't be sure, but it does appear that Cardinal Burke is a Catholic.
Cardinal Burke celebrates the EF frequently, and with reverence; promotes the liturgical traditions of the Church; isn't afraid to deny communion to pro-abortion politicians, and to chastize fellow priests and bishops who fail to do the same...In short, he's one of the best bishops of the Church, if not the best.
ReplyDeleteYes, Cardinal Burke cites JPII. But what does he cite from JPII? Something that violates the traditional teachings of the Church? I doubt it. JPII may have been a flawed human being, but he was insightful and inspired on many subjects, and worthy of citation. Besides, citing JPII is good politics.
Denis
All right, fellas, Angelqueen has called, and wants their conclave back, but before you go, can any of you cite a single member of the College of Cardinals you'd consider "more traditional" than Burke?
ReplyDeleteIt's a good speech. What's really encouraging for me is the change of emphasis. For a long time speeches from the Vatican on modern culture and society were dangerously over-optimistic, stressing the need for the Church to keep up with the times and adapt herself to 'modern needs', with all the disastrous results.
ReplyDeleteThe post-war world that Vatican II addressed (for 'world' read France and Germany) has now disintegrated.
Dean William Inge said "Whoever marries the spirit of this age will find himself a widower in the next.”
"More traditional" than Burke? How about Card. Ranjith?
ReplyDelete"can any of you cite a single member of the College of Cardinals you'd consider "more traditional" than Burke?"
ReplyDeleteCardinal Ranjith.
"On 7 October 2009 Archbishop Ranjith issued new liturgical guidelines in his diocese. These include; "all faithful, including the religious, to receive Holy Communion reverently kneeling and on the tongue" as well as laymen being forbidden from preaching."
Fred,
ReplyDeleteYou're as much of a self-righteous mini-pope as the people you criticize. You have no idea what RC readers think or believe.
You, on the other hand, appear to believe that someone who overreacts at the sight of references to JP2 and V2 has "left the Church years ago." You illustrate one of the chief symptoms excessive-V2-affirmation syndrome: the knee-jerk tendency to hope for the excommunication of anyone who isn't as V2-affirming as you are.
Denis
I can't help the impression that some posters here downloaded the Cardinal's speech, did a quick word scan for "John Paul II," "Vatican II," and "Benedict XVI" and upon finding such references - and seeing that none were full throated denunciations of the same as modernist termites - decided to write off the entire speech as pointless. The standards at work here seem to suggest that no bonafide traditional Catholic can be found outside the grounds of an SSPX chapel or seminary, and even a few within might be open to question.
ReplyDeleteWhatever his signposts (which I suggest are subtly chosen, selectively marshaling modern sources to support Catholic tradition), the road Cardinal Burke maps out strikes me as reasonably faithful to Catholic teaching in its full tradition. It would be nice to see...just a little more charity exercised around here.
Henry and too many others who distort the majority of the readers of this blog with their intense activist modus operandi are guilty of a definitive desertion of Faith and Reason.
ReplyDeleteIn addition, they would isolate the Catholic Faith from most of the human race to feed their closed mentalities.
We find ourselves debating nonsense in order to oppose nonsense hoping this blog does not get tagged with that nonsense. They are a 'no class' outfit who do not serve the purposes behind the creation of SSPX.
They cannot get beyond the 'smells and bells' of their passions. Their in-ability to reason in the light of God's light is a strange condition.
Michael F Brennan
St Petersburg Florida
Ranjith is admirable always. Imagine the barbarism of the age we endure, that laymen have actively to be 'forbidden' to preach! Unbelievable! One scarcely recognizes the landscape.
ReplyDelete@Athelstane
Indeed, and not just charity, patience too.
I learned much from His Eminence. Ethos is the moral norm of the times. We have lost ours to the primacy of the individual over natural God given rights. We must lead Catholic lives and study the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Deo gratias for this Cardinal.
ReplyDelete@Athelstane
ReplyDeleteSpot on!
Burke's theme is that the main cause of the decline of the Christian West is the debasement of the sexual function -- from a "Gift of God" to the present means of self-gratification. He's got a good point, and it's understandable that he only quotes from from recent popes. The diseases of contraception and abortion became most prevalent only in the late 20th century. Whatever else you might say about the post-V2 Church, it has been outspoken in its defense of traditional sexual morality.
ReplyDeleteThe desolation suffocating the Church is likely to suck all hope from any and all of us. I find myself living the cross of the Church. It honestly seems an extraordinary thing (no pun intended) to find a modern Churchman willing to reach back beyond John XXIII for virtually any reference whatsoever to Catholic teaching. A fact annoying at best, and perhaps treacherous at its worst. Still, of a Church in the doldrums, one keeps the eyes and ears alert for every shaft of light. Burke attaches to VC2, he also regularly celebrates the ancient rite of Sacrifice, thus preaching from the altar the charism of holy liturgy. In my view, a bright form amid the desolation.
ReplyDeleteCardinal Burke on the 'Fall of the Christian West' is a concise but major work. It speaks to the loss of Faith and Reason inside western civilization.
ReplyDeleteVirtues have been supplanted with values, i.e. individual liberty to celebrate personal sinfulness masking as freedom.
The consistent opposition to this madness by the last four-five Popes is indicative of the time-frame this attack has been most present in the world. In addition the Popes 'no holds barred' defense of sanity speaks well to the continued presence of Christ in our midst.
The logic that affirms the madness is a loss of 'Reason' that cannot be comprehended without acknowledging the mystery of evil and its power to inflict dire changes in the mind of man.
Michael F Brennan
St Petersburg Florida
Again, a cohort of little "popes" have decreed that Burke is ---- well, is Catholicism is suspect. So say laymen, so say those "devoted" to Trent etc., all the while discarding the teachings of Trent.
ReplyDeleteIt is astonishing how powerful the protestant matrix...
MikeB wrote: "In addition the Popes 'no holds barred' defense of sanity speaks well to the continued presence of Christ in our midst."
ReplyDeleteJohn XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI?
Delphina
"Whatever else you might say about the post-V2 Church, it has been outspoken in its defense of traditional sexual morality."
ReplyDeleteI don't mean to bash the present pope, but his statement about prostitutes and condoms, and the ones that followed from his spokesman and the CDF, might not have resonated all that well with some of his predecessors. I think.
@Michael F Brennan
ReplyDeleteThe Cardinal seems not a verbose man, to his credit. That he desires to let, as it were, the ancient liturgy speak to Catholics of its own power seems not only wise, but shows forth this Cardinal's faith in Christ, and manifests a consummate appreciation of the destiny of his sacred office. Would there were fifty more Burkes in the Sacred College! My old confessor used to say - with God, anything is possible.
'Burke's theme is that the main cause of the decline of the Christian West is the debasement of the sexual function -- from a "Gift of God" to the present means of self-gratification.'
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure that this is his theme, but regardless of whether it is or not, it is wrong. This debasement is an effect, not a cause - the effect (and the punishment) of the loss of supernatural faith. This rejection of faith is incommensurably worse than sexual sin, because it is a sin directly against God rather than a sin against a natural good. The idea that sexual sin is the problem for Catholicism, and moralising about is the solution, is one of the worst mistakes of the postconciliar church.
It is true that some of the criticisms of the cardinal's speech were a bit heated, but their basic idea is correct - it is the same old, same old; continual references to John Paul II and Benedict XVI as the main luminaries, vague stuff about human dignity and faith and reason that do not get to the real issues. The cardinal is a real gentleman and has genuinely good intentions, but is faithfully following a lead that has failed.
Pascendi said...
ReplyDeleteAgain, a cohort of little "popes" have decreed that Burke is ---- well, is Catholicism is suspect. So say laymen, so say those "devoted" to Trent etc., all the while discarding the teachings of Trent.
It is astonishing how powerful the protestant matrix...
Once again, the broad-brush treatment by someone who calls himself "Pascendi" is foisted upon us. When are the moderators going to discipline this person or, do the moderators agree with him? Really, this forum is becoming a place to bash traditional Catholics. Is that the new purpose of this blog?
Pro Christo et Ecclesia!
ReplyDeletewww.corpuschristianum.org
Some unknown person said: When are the moderators going to discipline this person or, do the moderators agree with him?
ReplyDelete"Please, DO NOT assume that RORATE CÆLI contributors or moderators necessarily agree with or otherwise endorse any particular comment just because they let it stand."
Really, this forum is becoming a place to bash traditional Catholics. Is that the new purpose of this blog?
Some of our anonymous commenters like to claim we are promoters and supporters of the SSPX, while others claim we are anti-traditionalist or semi-traditionalist or "neo-Catholic" or modernist.
There seems to be quite a few folks who are - to use the popular idiom - "going ballistic" over the remarks of those who note, sadly, that Cardinal Burke finds it necessary to refer to the usual souces (JPII, Vatican II, etc.) in his addresses. Could I recommend that everybody calm down a bit? Name calling and superciliousness are not terribly helpful when discussing these matters.
ReplyDeleteOne who responded suggested we all practice a little patience, by which, I assume, he meant us to wait and see what Benedict will accomplish during his Papacy. Fair enough. But let me speak a little about patience.
Back in 1979 one of the greatest, most respected Catholic journalists in the world, Hamish Fraser, used his excellent publication APPROACHES to not only chronicle the unbelievable decay that had been strangling the Church but, true Catholic that he was, expressed joy and hope over the recent election of John Paul II. And Fraser was not the only one. Many other commentators in Europe and elsewhere were expressing similar thoughts. Fraser admonished us to be patient, correctly stating that it will take a long time to undo the damage that had been done to Christ's Church. That was good advice. But let's think about that for a moment. 1979 was almost two generations ago, and look where we are now. This is hardly a criticism of Fraser. It is merely stated that the calls to have patience have been heard long before and we must eventually ask, "how long do we need to have to have patience?"
If the current Pope were to give solid, unequivocal signs that he is indeed intending to undo the damage then I would agree that we will, wearily and once again, try to be patient. But aside from Summorum Pontificum (which will turn out to be a dead letter unless the Pope starts to really enforce it) this Pope has done pretty much the opposite, at least as far as the world can see. Two major indicators should not be forgotten in assessing the Holy Father's outlook. One, no heretical Bishops have been sacked. Not one. Even those who promote homosexual "masses". Second, he seems determined to carry on the follies of his predecessor, especially in horrendous things like this new Assisi jamboree and even the unseemly and outrageous "beatification" of one who was arguably among the top ten worst Popes in history. So, yes we can be patient. But we also need to be realistic.
As for Cardinal Burke, I like him. He most likely has to trot out the usual tiresome cliches about Vatican 2, etc. whenever he speaks and, of course, that troubles me. One would assume that if he has the courage to speak about refusing Communion to slimy politicians he would also have the courage to cite truly great Popes of the past. As one poster beautifully said about the Vatican "resetting itself to year 0 in 1965" we are seeing that mentality very much in evidence even in so excellent a man as Burke.
I would hope, too, that we might be spared the admonishment from our Catholic betters about "making the perfect the enemy of the good." We don't expect perfection; we only expect a tad more Catholicity.
So, to those out there on this blog who call us morons or whatever, try to understand that some of us have been hanging on by the tips of our fingers for well over 40 years which I believe entitles us to expect a little more out of our prelates than mere business as usual.
@ "Pascendi"
ReplyDeleteSimilar to the little "popes" who believe in the Feeneyite heresy against the express teachings of VCII, the New Catechism, and all Post-Conciliar Popes (and even Pre-Conciliar Popes)?
Talk about a Protestant matrix!
The one good thing I'll say about Cardinal Burke is at least he's got the good sense not to be a Feeneyite!
Why are the moderators of Rorate Caeli so adamently opposed to Mint Chocolate Chip ICE CREAM!!!
ReplyDeleteRegarding the support of the
ReplyDeleteSSPX by Rorate Caeli, isn't it true that Rorate Caeli is affiliated or associated with the Angelus Press? The Angelus Press, is, of course, the publishing house for the SSPX here in the U.S.
Also, the articles and rhetoric on Rorate Caeli have increasingly become a reflection of the views of the SSPX. It's like a new and improved Angelqueen (better and more sophisticated graphics than Angelqueen, that is).
Pascendi,
ReplyDeleteAgan,another sad comment. I come to this blog (and forum) assuming we find here a place to voice opinions, debate, concerns, and, yes, ranting too.
I would humbly recommend to you to assume that everyone here is Catholic, everyone here loves the Church, nobody here plays the silly game of "little popes" until clearly proven otherwise.
Many, many times I found only in Rorate Caeli a place where I can speak my thoughts. Sometimes these thoughts are tough and harsh. Reality is too.
I again ask you a little bit of understanding and patience. And if a comment upsets you, you have the right to express your opinion as well, but please, don't throw a disqualification statement every times some harsh comments are posted.
I am fully aware that if a comment offends the Pope or the Church, moderators will delete it. It makes sense. It is obviously right.
But if a comment is posted, I assume that comes from someone who wants the best for the Church, expressed in his/her own best terms, although it might not be necessarily mine.
M.M.
@ WWB
ReplyDeleteSorry pal... "morons" is an offensive word and should NOT be used to call another fellow Catholic, ever!
Why don't you try to express your views in a positive and constructive way instead?
Try it. It is also full of the blessings of charity.
M.M.
Regarding the support (sic) of the SSPX by Rorate Caeli, isn't it true that Rorate Caeli is affiliated or associated with the Angelus Press?
ReplyDeleteNo, it is not true.
Also, the articles and rhetoric on Rorate Caeli have increasingly become a reflection of the views of the SSPX.
Eye of the beholder.
Speaking for myself, I do not believe that the SSPX is justified in their disobedience to the Catholic Church, nor do I think it advisable to assist at their illicit Masses or to receive the sacraments from them except in cases of genuine emergency. I do, however, sympathise with the SSPX and share most of its concerns (what Catholic with any awareness of the present troubles besetting the Church wouldn't?). Other contributors here, and the blog owner, may or may not share my point of view.
Why are the moderators of Rorate Caeli so adamently opposed to Mint Chocolate Chip ICE CREAM!!!
ReplyDeleteIt's because it's offensive to the natural and divine law to mingle mint with chocolate chips, you vile heretic you!
Anonymous 11:59 --- "discipline this person..." Thank God that Rorate Caeli believes in freedom of speech.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous MM --- I am certainly not taking any personal umbrage at the points raised. What concerns me are, sadly, attacks upon the Holy Father and other good men (e.g. Cardinal Burke). Thank God that we do not live in a Soviet or Nazi-type state, and, as such, are able to express ourselves.
Pascendi said...
ReplyDelete"discipline this person..." Thank God that Rorate Caeli believes in freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech? Is that what you call it? You have supposed there is such a right on this blog. I daresay the blog owner and the moderators would say that "freedom" applies only if that speech is not hateful by broad-brushing others with unkind or uncharitable characterizations.
A suggestion: perhaps commenters might care to discuss the topic at hand, refrain from immoderate rhetoric, and stop talking about the tone of each other's comments and instead talk about the substance.
ReplyDeleteModerate yourself and we won't have to moderate you.
"Moderate yourself and we won't have to moderate you."
ReplyDelete....But, but, Jordanes, HE started it first!
:-D
Let us raise our voices to glorious St. Joseph - whose Feast day is tomorrow.
ReplyDelete